The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, version II)

[Jeruselem]

Septentrionia sucks using a scorinator during the group stage, full stop.

[Qazox]

...

Some conform to what we've created, others deliberately rail against it, while most have gone with the flow. Whether that's a good thing, or not, I'm not one to judge.

I'm probably one of those, huh?

Now this is going to sound wierd coming from me, but it's the Cup of Harmony! So why can't we all just get along????

Seriously, As far as I've known the CoH's participation has always been at the host's discretion, right? Granted it's been a while since I competed in one of those, but the nation had to be invited to it. And to be invited, the host(s) put forth the criteria they will use to determine who gets an invite, but they've made exceptions before. This time Jasiyun was an exception.

[Toiletdonia]

Okay after a bid fell through with The Babbage Islands for BoF 39 I'm still looking with someone to bid with for BoF.

[Starblaydia]

...
Some conform to what we've created, others deliberately rail against it, while most have gone with the flow. Whether that's a good thing, or not, I'm not one to judge.

I'm probably one of those, huh?

No no, you're quite the conformist to the situation I've suggested out there, as you've pointed out yourself: RPing primarily to win, RPing so it looks better, for the bonus each day, getting upset when you don't win, and all that.

[Nethertopia]

1 Nethertopia                         2    2   0   0    8    5   +3    6 Q

wat

[Newmanistan]

The only way issues get resolved is through discussion. Issues do not get resolved by saying "drop it". They get postponed to a later date. It is why as someone said here, we go through this all time. Because we "just drop it" (to have it come up again, with or without different people in the main roles)... we don't resolve it.

We have had healthy discussion here, it was rolling well especially after Krytenia's suggestion. It's not arguing.... maybe it has been testy, but everything has been civil. So no, let's not drop it when we were making good progress. Let us resolve it. Let us come to a consensus on what we're gonna do about CoH policy. This is the way you avoid having the same thing come up in Cup of Harmony 44, and 45, and 46..... if you sweep it under the rug, it stays under the rug and returns.

[Newmanistan]

You know what... I have a challenge for those of you who say wins/losses shouldn't matter and it's all about RP, since I have been criticized for what I said about the WBC. This challenge is an opportunity for you "put your WC 52 where your keyboard is".

I challenge all of you who said it should be about RP and not wins/losses to agree to do to World Cup 52 with zero KPB points from start to finish. Seriously... Who's game for this challenge? You're nations sudden "suck syndrome" provides a wonderful RP opportunity.

If at least 8 top 32 nations (25%) accept this challenge, then I will return to WC52 and agree to do the same thing. I'm willing to do it. Note that this challenge entails you do not get RP bonus from start to finish. Who else?

You called me out... now I'm calling you out.

[Krytenia]

You know what... I have a challenge for those of you who say wins/losses shouldn't matter and it's all about RP, since I have been criticized for what I said about the WBC. This challenge is an opportunity for you "put your WC 52 where your keyboard is".

I challenge all of you who said it should be about RP and not wins/losses to agree to do to World Cup 52 with zero KPB points from start to finish. Seriously... Who's game for this challenge? You're nations sudden "suck syndrome" provides a wonderful RP opportunity.

If at least 8 top 32 nations (25%) accept this challenge, then I will return to WC52 and agree to do the same thing. I'm willing to do it. Note that this challenge entails you do not get RP bonus from start to finish. Who else?

You called me out... now I'm calling you out.

You saw how I started my WC51 campaign. I don't need 0 KPB for sudden suck syndrome.

[The Archregimancy]

...
Some conform to what we've created, others deliberately rail against it, while most have gone with the flow. Whether that's a good thing, or not, I'm not one to judge.

I'm probably one of those, huh?

No no, you're quite the conformist to the situation I've suggested out there, as you've pointed out yourself: RPing primarily to win, RPing so it looks better, for the bonus each day, getting upset when you don't win, and all that.

With the irony being that, under many RP bonus systems, nations often get a better cumulative bonus for intermittent but high-quality RPs that contribute significantly to a competition than they do for consistent but weaker RPs posted every day just to keep that RP bonus ticking over.

[The Weegies]

You know what... I have a challenge for those of you who say wins/losses shouldn't matter and it's all about RP, since I have been criticized for what I said about the WBC. This challenge is an opportunity for you "put your WC 52 where your keyboard is".

I challenge all of you who said it should be about RP and not wins/losses to agree to do to World Cup 52 with zero KPB points from start to finish. Seriously... Who's game for this challenge? You're nations sudden "suck syndrome" provides a wonderful RP opportunity.

If at least 8 top 32 nations (25%) accept this challenge, then I will return to WC52 and agree to do the same thing. I'm willing to do it. Note that this challenge entails you do not get RP bonus from start to finish. Who else?

You called me out... now I'm calling you out.

Fine! I accept!

[Liventia]

I don't think we should be wasting our time with someone who professes to no longer be interested in the World Cup. JMO.

Regarding the CoH entry requirements, I've got no issues over relaxing them as long as the caveat remains that nations must have participated in WCQ.

And last but not least, I'm getting quite concerned over QPeMA's no-show.

[Somewhereistonia]

And last but not least, I'm getting quite concerned over QPeMA's no-show.

I've talked to QP on irc over the last couple of days, I don't think there's a problem here.

[Sarzonia]

I challenge all of you who said it should be about RP and not wins/losses to agree to do to World Cup 52 with zero KPB points from start to finish.

In case you're forgetting, I started World Cup 44 with zero KPB points. I was expecting to RP my team sucking whilst facing unrealistic expectations. I expected to have to fire my manager or have him resign when he realised he couldn't translate his greatness on the pitch to greatness on the sidelines.

Then I came within one point of qualifying for the proper. Having a team make an unexpected run toward qualifying basically invalidated my storyline idea completely.

Believe me, I love winning as much as anyone. I hate losing as much as anyone. But I love exploring characters and developing storylines just a little bit more.

I don't think this community needs someone here who doesn't want to be here. If you have no more interest in the World Cup, you have the World Baseball Classic. Don't be a hanger-on here.

[Newmanistan]

I was accused of something (only caring about wins and losses) and people jumped on that.... essentially saying Newmanistan is whats wrong with NS Sports, that people are not supposed to care about wins and losses and only enjoy RP no matter what happens. I was offended by that and still am. But offending me is ok, right? I'm not a member of the #nssport crowd or the old boys club,so yeah, fire away at me. It's all acceptable. I still have not gotten answer of why it was ok to accuse me of only posting my original thought about the CoH because I was bitter about not qualifying. That would be turning a valid complaint into something that was results related. But that was ok. I mention a positive result in something, and here comes the lynch mob attacking me for only caring about results. Uh huh, sure.....

People think I'm so bad, but really I care no more or no less about results then any of you. There's been a lot of talk... now do the walk. Play WC52 with zero KPB. The Weegies gained a ton of credibility. If you can't do the walk, then there's a lot of hypocrisy here.

Ignore Newmanistan, he'll go away. Yes I will. But at the same time I bet there are a handful of people reading this thread right now, not posting, thinking "I better never be outspoken if it's not what the majority wants to hear."

[Sarzonia]

Dude, I'm not part of the "old boys" network. I railed against it for years and continue to. I have no intentions of stopping until we do away with the object of my ire.

I'm sure there are plenty of folks here who'd love it if I just went quietly into that good night. I can name one or two off the top of my head whom I believe would rather I just said the hell with it and left. However, I'm not planning to leave unless this gets to a point where I no longer enjoy the RPing because of the bullshit drama going on.

But here, you're carrying on in a rather immature fashion. So people are accusing you of something you believe is false. So what? People will think what they will regardless of what you do or say. Don't give a flying fuck about the haters. Otherwise, you run the risk of being Qazox Lite.

[Newmanistan]

Sarzonia, I realize you are not part of the old boys club. You're not really one of the top nations I'd look to accept the challenge.

I was offended. People get offended by different things. Someone saying I am "what's wrong with NS Sports" is offensive. I feel I am owed an apology by two people here for their remarks... Valanora & Daehanjeiguk.

I'll start with the apologies.... Somewhereistonia, I was too hostile in the post the originated all this. I apologize for the tone of the post and the harsh manner in which it is delivered.

[Valanora]

Considering you are claiming that I have done something that I have not, I feel no need to apologize and considering you are attempting to drag my name through the mud, I feel the need to defend myself.

I asserted that you were quitting because you have not found the success you are looking for. Do you know why I came to this conclusion, well it is because you said as much when you were quitting just a few World Cups ago when things weren't going your way. Now nations came and convinced you that you should stay and you did, for another few editions before you suddenly quit again after again seemingly not getting your way with the results. This is supported by your own assertion that the World Baseball Classic and World Cup of Hockey were better because you had championships and were having good runs in these different sporting tournaments. Now instead of either moving on, you decide to throw what appears to be a temper tantrum with this "challenge" for the nations you seem to despise when many of them have done this so called challenge at once if not two or three times through restarting or puppets.

Yes RPing without getting success is frustrating. I will admit I get upset when I lose and I am elated when I win. Do you think I am not frustrated that Pasarga didn't qualify when the nation that did never posted a roster or RP? Of course I am but I realize that it is just a game and not something worth creating animosity and disrupting the community over. Truth be told, I prefer hosting and messing around with my domestic leagues much more than competing in the Cups themselves, cause then I get to read the stories that the many great writers in our tournament create and creating my own interesting storylines with how those seasons turn out.

I would suggest to you that you should evaluate the priorities of why you are playing the game of NS Sport rather than making accusations against a selected group of users because of false perceptions, because whether you or others think otherwise #nssport is not something of old boys club, it's merely a channel for many of us to hang out and where most of the simple but needed to be asked questions can get asked and answered in real time over a variety of issues.

I will leave this all alone now and leave you with some good parting advice. Let them who casts the stones not live in a glass house.

[Newmanistan]

I asserted that you were quitting because you have not found the success you are looking for. Do you know why I came to this conclusion, well it is because you said as much when you were quitting just a few World Cups ago when things weren't going your way. Now nations came and convinced you that you should stay and you did, for another few editions before you suddenly quit again after again seemingly not getting your way with the results.

You're confusing me with someone else. The only time I mentioned quitting was during WC44 (or maybe 43) when I wasn't sure how things were going to play out with a new job I was taking and that it would make me need to cut back on NS Sports. I don't know where the rest of your statement comes from, at all. You must be thinking of someone else. From WC46 to this one, things had gone well for me with the exception of WC47, and I took that in stride, joking with Nethers (who qualified in my place) about it and even defended him when he posted he felt a bit guilty over it.

[Virabia]

...Regarding the CoH entry requirements, I've got no issues over relaxing them as long as the caveat remains that nations must have participated in WCQ...

I'd say relaxing them would be the opposite of what we need to do. We should actually be strengthening them.... alot.

Why?

Well as some here have already pointed out, and to be frank is quite obvious even if no one pointed it out, NS Sport (along with most other parts of NS) is a game centred around role playing. Now granted, not every can actively role play in every cup, and I know that (see Virabia: WC 50 cycle). Thus I believe there should be no RP requirements to make the world cup.

However, for the CoH (which is supposed to be an RPers' cup), and especially the lower ranked nations who did RP should not be fall victim to nations who just post a paragraph because they didn't make the WC (see: Taeshan + his puppet) proper being allowed into the CoH, where they will still not RP and will still do good just because of their rank. In the process robbing a more committed RPer a chance to go further, and actually get some ranking points.

The mere fact that this is allowed to happen in a cup designed for RP in a RP based game is pretty sad. However, what is worse is that to new nations who see nations who dont rp and win, this becomes discouraging, and either A) will turn them away from NS Sport (thus robbing the community of someone who could have contributed great storylines etc.) or B) when they do get successful they will also not RP because they don't need to.

Thus, I must say to Liventia and any one else who thinks the CoH requirements are too strict, to think about what I've said above, and to remember that above else NS Sport is built upon roleplay, and that if you be bothered to do what (at it's heart) the game is about than you shouldn't be allowed to pollute a cup for nations who do.

Thus I believe that the regulations should be strengthened, not weakened, because the way it is right now, any Joe Schmoe who can write one paragraph (when he wasn't even planning to) is counted as an "active" participant.

[Sarzonia]

I don't think we're necessarily talking about relaxing the entry requirements for the Cup of Harmony. Krytenia's proposal is allowing each hosting pair to determine which criteria it will follow to admit nations into the Cup of Harmony.

If you want to host a Cup of Harmony with the best RPers who didn't qualify for the proper, that's fine. If you want to host a Cup of Harmony with the teams sporting the best records among non-qualifiers, go for it.

Krytenia's proposal is the easiest way we can address the concerns over Commerce Heights's being invited into the Cup of Harmony in spite of nebulous RP bonus issues. Sure, Somewhereistonia invited him where I would not have, but instead of raking Somewheristonia through the coals, we should be using this as an opportunity to hash out what it is we're really after.

[Virabia]

I don't think we're necessarily talking about relaxing the entry requirements for the Cup of Harmony. Krytenia's proposal is allowing each hosting pair to determine which criteria it will follow to admit nations into the Cup of Harmony.

If you want to host a Cup of Harmony with the best RPers who didn't qualify for the proper, that's fine. If you want to host a Cup of Harmony with the teams sporting the best records among non-qualifiers, go for it.

Krytenia's proposal is the easiest way we can address the concerns over Commerce Heights's being invited into the Cup of Harmony in spite of nebulous RP bonus issues. Sure, Somewhereistonia invited him where I would not have, but instead of raking Somewheristonia through the coals, we should be using this as an opportunity to hash out what it is we're really after.

Ok, well, my post was more aimed at the invitations of both of Tae's nations (when the CoH already had 32+ entrants.

Also to address Kry's proposal

What's to say that the EWCC won't count stringent requirements against the host, and given what I know, that probably will end up happening. Thus, what will be established will be the ultimate loosening of the already loose restrictions.

Also you brought up the issue of hosts potentially only taking the best records into the CoH. I just hope that never finds it's way into a bid, because I do feel that would undermine what the game is, and I would become quite hotheaded if that happened.

[Bears Armed]

Let me show you the list of nations that made some progress towards meeting the requirements and did not get in:

Roster but no rp:
Odinex
Iglesian Archipelago
Mantwenic
Westmeadow Tavern
Palatazze
Mount Shavano
Die Adler
Tonarius
Bostopia
Achtervolging
Balida
Kryosis

RP but no roster:
Tretskivucia
Loonaterian
Kanvers

The list of those who gained some sort of special entry:
Western Cuba - posting of numerous rps with no roster, it seemed unfair to exclude him when others granted invitation had roleplayed less.
Taeshan - granted late entry to fill numbers; initially excluded because only rp was late and there to get into CoH.
Kosovoe - granted late entry to fill numbers; initially excluded because only rp was late and there to get into CoH.

As far as I can see, Western Cuba is the only one I show favour to out of all of this. Should I be criticised for letting his in? I think not, as my bid says "Minor variations to this (such as highly detailed rosters) will be made as we see fit." I saw fit to make a variation that seemed fair.

So, have I gone about this the right way? Was I right to trawl through the Rosters and Roleplay threads to work out exactly who posted rps, whether someone like Western Cuba had posted enough to get past having no roster, attempting to work out whether any of those without rps but with rosters had done enough solely on the rosters (they had not, although Caf could easily have got in via this method ). Should I have done something different?

Well, if I had been doing that job then I'd probably have allowed only one of Taeshan & Kossovoe in, and filled the vacant space with whichever of Tretskivucia, Loonaterian & Kanvers had done the best RPing, but you were the person on the spot so "no problem" about this as far as I'm concerned...

___________________________________________________________________________________


Incidentally, in case anybody wonders, Cafundeu and Bears Armed (Mainland) both saying that we'd be having a Krytenian referee for our match wasn't a coordinated piece of RP: I'd already decided to have the Bears say this before I read Caf's post and discovered the coincidence...

[Kelssek]

I have no wish to pass judgement how anyone derives their enjoyment from this community, and neither is it my place to. However, I think the fact that for one to protest on the grounds that it makes it harder for you to win the competition leaves a very bad taste in the mouths of most people. This shouldn't be a surprise. Culturally, I think most of us are raised with the idea that caring too much about winning, and playing just to win, is not very nice. As a kid I didn't understand at first why I'd go to training sessions and have coaches make us do so many things in the name of winning, and then still be happy when we lost because we "gave it our best".

It seems implicit that the objective of sport is to win. And certainly winning has great emotional value no matter what level of sport you compete in. I certainly wanted very much to win that inline hockey tournament as a kid and to be the schools water polo champions rather than runners-up. We Canadians certainly cared a great deal about winning against the United States in the Olympic ice hockey final. But to have won in an underhanded or dirty way would probably have created greater national unease than losing cleanly would have. Also, Don Cherry might have committed suicide, and he's very amusing and our suits-made-of-curtain-fabric industry might have collapsed, putting perhaps 3 people out of work.

But as I got older I realised that the objective of sport isn't really to win, but to have a good time. Only a select few can really be champions, and even those can't claim to be the best. Roger Federer has won the most trophies of any tennis player, but he can't claim to be the best because he can't win against Rafael Nadal. Usain Bolt might be the world record holder in the men's 100m, but someday that record will be broken, and just because he was the fastest athlete at a race in 2008 doesn't mean he'll still be the fastest in 2012. A trophy or the pride of winning it is a reward, but not much more than that. What does winning really mean, anyway? There are many people who have never won the World Cup, never won the Stanley Cup, and they're definitely still much better football or hockey players than I could ever hope to be. Though I've grown up skiing, anyone who's done alpine ski racing in any serious way is likely a better skiier than me, never mind if they've won so much as an age-group race. So why bother at all? Well, it's a legitimate reason to wear a full-body spandex suit and some people are into that. It's a good time.

Let me tell you what I find to be the most annoying, particular thing on NationStates: it's this person who continually boasts about "winning" a competition I hosted, and put a great deal of effort into. This person didn't RP and didn't put in any effort beyond signing up for the thing, yet he gloats about it in OOC threads and puts it into their sig like it means something.

I think good results, and winning in the context of NS Sport, is a kind of a vindication of the creative work we've put in. Not so much as a reward, but a reflection of our efforts - that's why the aforementioned thing galls me so much. There are practical reasons, too. More rank means I could be more assured of getting into the finals, which in turn means more time in which to RP. The very ideas of RP bonus and rank imply that winning or doing better is some kind of a reward. I would surmise that's the reason many of the "veterans" or the "elites" get riled up when it becomes apparent that some people just care about "winning"; it implies you think you have an entitlement to what they see as an incidental reward, which, if it ever does come their way, should be earned - and a reward which is rather meaningless anyway.

So I think you, Newmanistan, are completely missing the point with that challenge you're putting forward, because no RP bonus and no rank removes the IC realism and the OOC reward mechanisms. I don't care that you want to quit, and I don't care if you still really do prefer tournaments you have a better chance of winning in. It's when you start effing at hosts because you want to maximise winning probability that I (and others, judging by the general tone in here) get riled up a little. But nevertheless, for the sake of proving a point I will accept that challenge, as a top 32 ranked team. Hosts, please put me in to WC52 with no rank or RP bonus. I don't even care what you do in return, because what you want to do or not do I really can't be arsed about.

[Sarzonia]

Frankly, if I were going to host World Cup 52, I'd reject any requests to revert KPB ranks and RP bonuses to zero for any of the top whatever teams. The demand on its face is unreasonable.

Newmanistan, I know you and I have been on the same side of some of these issues, but you're really not doing yourself any favours by continuing this line of debate, especially since you've announced your intention to withdraw from the World Cup. Perhaps MY demand may be as unreasonable to you as yours to all the top teams has been, but here goes: Either stay all in or just leave completely.

Keeping West Pocono in just to keep your spot on the EWCC is a cop out. You say you want to leave? No one's stopping you.

I couldn't care less if you're leaving because you've lost interest in this aspect of the game, if you're leaving because you're tired of this community, or you're leaving because you can win elsewhere. If you want to leave, just leave and be done with it. Don't stick around and create more drama for everyone else.

You may not be a symbol of what's wrong with NS Sports by having a desire to win, but your actions are a damn good example of what's wrong with NS Sports vis a vis your creating a climate that is poisonous to resolving our many issues.

[Newmanistan]

Perhaps MY demand may be as unreasonable to you as yours to all the top teams has been, but here goes: Either stay all in or just leave completely.

You know what? Accepted.
From this moment forward, hosting the Keisler Cup to its conclusion will be it for me. Then when it is over, I am as well.

Because yes, I don't need the aggravation.