The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, version II)

[Krytenia]

It is my opinion that it is my responsibility, as a participant, to roleplay. It is the responsibility of the World Cup hosts (in this case, me, oddly enough) to attribute those roleplays to particular teams for the purpose of assigning bonunes. It is the responsibility of the Cup of Harmony hosts to attribute those roleplays to particular teams for the purpose of deciding which teams to invite.

If “rules” give me (as a participant, not a host) any additional obligation other than to roleplay as I see fit, then this competition has strayed far from its primary purpose and I must seriously consider withdrawing.

All we're asking is you help the hosts out a bit by making things more clear. Is that truly such a bad thing?

[Commerce Heights]

All we're asking is you help the hosts out a bit by making things more clear. Is that truly such a bad thing?

It is not my decision to make. If the hosts of the World Cup and Cup of Harmony are not willing to make decisions on how to attribute roleplays, then they should either refrain from hosting those competitions or decline to take roleplaying into account at all.

[Newmanistan]

Aside from the current controversy-of-sorts, I'm not comfortable with Newmanistan maintaining a signup for West Pocono just to keep his/her EWCC vote.

Well, either that or I enter Newmanistan solely for that reason. It is legal based on the World Cup Constitution.
Then will Newmanistan be refused because I essentially said there wouldn't be RP? If so, then we better refuse a bunch of other signups per World Cup, too if they didn't RP in the prior World Cup.

Is it in the spirit of the rule? Of course not, I'll be the first to admit that. But I feel that what may be a "minority vote" in the EWCC is important, and the telegrams I have gotten from a couple people, in addition to what has been said in this thread makes me believe that this is the right thing for me to do for the community at large.

[Krytenia]

All we're asking is you help the hosts out a bit by making things more clear. Is that truly such a bad thing?

It is not my decision to make. If the hosts of the World Cup and Cup of Harmony are not willing to make decisions on how to attribute roleplays, then they should either refrain from hosting those competitions or decline to take roleplaying into account at all.

It's not your decision to RP as the right nation?

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And I've listened to a Clive Tyldesley commentary.

[Sel Appa]

*snip*

Decided to "pop in" by spamming?

Your uncle!

...I said I might sign up

would that be before the post edit or after the post edit? Because iirc, that little bit below the *VVVV... didn't exist before. Moreover, I fail to see how spamming LE's uncle would help advocate your case for signing up when the sign up thread is over here.

I was editing the vvvv to make it more prominent.

[Commerce Heights]

It's not your decision to RP as the right nation?

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And I've listened to a Clive Tyldesley commentary.

What is the “right nation”?

[Krytenia]

It's not your decision to RP as the right nation?

That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. And I've listened to a Clive Tyldesley commentary.

What is the “right nation”?

The nation you're talking about in the RP. If it's both/neither, say so.

[Commerce Heights]

The nation you're talking about in the RP. If it's both/neither, say so.

It was both. Anyone who reads the roleplay should be able to figure that out.

[Nethertopia]

Urgh, all these semi-important discussions make me feel quite sad... I mean, the WC is supposed to be a nice forum-based role playing game of nations participating in sports. CH makes an RP for people to read, perhaps enjoy and therefore gets drafted into the CoH. Newmanistan claims that putting Jasi-yun into the CoH will lower the chances of a lower-ranked team winning. Since when did this all become about winning, winning, winning and arguing? There's way too much arguing about silly topics these days. Can't we just all enjoy the RPs that go around and like the fact that as many teams as possible are participating in competitions as the concerning CoH?

/rant

[Somewhereistonia]

I believe that the wording of Newmanistan's question in the bid thread was not specific to this case, the RP posted was about both of CH's nations and as Capitalizt SLANI qualified automatically it seemed fair to count said rp as for Jasiyun. Whilst I believe it would be helpful for CH to differentiate between the two when rping (notably in awarding rp bonuses for one or other nations); I do not see this as a big problem.

Had Newmanistan's question been "will you let Jasiyun into the CoH if he only rps under Commerce Heights - even if the rp is about (or partly about) Jasiyun?" then my answer would have been "it depends"; in this case, it was "yes". If Newmanistan really thinks that I have breached her trust over this, then fine. One vote from someone who probably wouldn't vote for me anyway - even if I find her use of a puppet to keep her EWCC vote far more disturbing. It isn't in breach of the rules, it isn't that big an issue (although, potentially far more influential than letting Jasiyun into the Cup of Harmony) - I'm not too bothered by it.

Making an issue of this really seems pathetic to me, I've made a decision, it isn't too unreasonable really, get over yourselves and enjoy the rp that might come of it.

[The Babbage Islands]

Time for a deep breath all round, I think.

Somewhereistonia made a call that was their duty to make. It involved a rather grey area. Some of us might not have made the same call. That's life.

Newmanistan called attention to a perceived inconsistency between host statements and host subsequent behaviour. Some of us disagree. That's life.

Commerce Heights has historically been allowed a tacit variation in what is generally enforced as modern practise. Some of us find it a double standard. That's life.

The above-named are all people -- not "nations", people -- who have long records of giving to our community. Do we really need to lower ourselves to community cannibalism in the name of whatever point we're espousing at the moment?

[Daehanjeiguk]

To reply to some remarks:

(1) Having seen C&M's more studious 20 minute furlough into the NS archives, I must concede that CH does have an active JSY account, and in accordance with NS Sport custom, should be and should have used that account for RPing purposes, if only to satisfy general requirements. The fact that the same user had account compatibility issues on the Jolt fora is not really relevant, moreover, any argument against this is just begging to follow tradition for tradition's sake. Moreover, since CH is the account owner and a cohost, CH should have really thought what anyone else - given the same circumstances - would reasonably expect. That the JSY account has existed for at least the past three days or so (in addition to however many days of RL are required to accumulate a godmoddish number of people) suggest that CH also had the capability to use the account.

(2) Nonetheless, I maintain that Newmanistan's complaint (as has been noted by Somewhereistonia) never explicitly stated that his grievance was against JSY; in fact at the time, I was thinking that people were talking about Qazox, although that just might show just involved I get with these inane hypotheticals (despite creating a good number of my absurd possibilities); if Newmanistan had simply asked if - given the events that occurred during WC50/CoH42 - JSY would be admitted again, I think this confusion/heat could have been averted. Because if you ask an ambiguous question, you won't necessarily get the clearest answer. As a result, the fact that this is the first time (to my knowledge - again, I'm not the best with this stuff, since I try hard to ignore the dribble that comes out from these types of inane circumstances) that any complaint against JSY appeared in this cycle, and hence it appears to me to be a gamble to wait at the last moment. If this complaint was genuinely expressed, I should have seen it in writing, along with 23 pages of commentary related to it, before any of this got messy.

(3) In any case, I'm glad that one person (i.e. Star) caught on to my real complaint - that is the fact that Newmanistan's complaint (whether legitimate or not) has stirred up a bee's nest about the manner in which we select our WCC hosts. This is just a game. If after one little incident we can no longer trust another person to run an entire tournament - that is, the aim to provide trifling rewards to whomever still has the tenacity to write about whatever inspires them at the moment - then we've got some serious trust issues. Disagreements in opinion should not translate ultimately to rifts in the community (although at the moment, it appears to be setting that way now).

Moreover, while Somewhereistonia's assertions may be subject to disagreement, I think that the fundamental issue of trust for me - that Somewhereistonia (and his as-yet absent co-host) is (1) capable of running a tournament; (2) capable of making informed judgments; (3) capable of posting results in a timely and orderly manner; (4) while maintaining a minimally reasonable level of ethical conduct [i.e. not fixing results]. A host generally earns these rights by running a tournament successfully or at least consistently hosting other similarly-run tournaments.

Nonetheless, the heart of the issue of admitting teams that did not "earn" the right to qualify has, in my recollection, been traditionally an exclusionary issue rather than an inclusory issue - that is, admitting a team that did not satisfy the minimum requirements did something in some manner to deprive the right of another team that had satisfied the minimum requirements the right to participate. Insoasfar as the minimum requirements to qualify had increased in recent seasons, I still believe that the fundamental issue is whether or not to exclude than to include. Because one of the NSWC's vaunted tenets has been the right of any and every nation to participate (now I sound like an old geezer, and I'm not even all that old in NS-age). So in my opinion, where this fine line of qualification exists in terms of the CoH seems to have lost its focus on why the line exists in the first place; participation, not winning are key.

(4) One more point, for Newmanistan only: I do believe that if your intention was to state that the quality of the WBC is comparable to the NSWC, then there are ten thousand alternative ways to express that sentiment without leaving someone to believe that you care about "championships" (and I can say using the word "championship" accompanies nearly all of them). I personally don't care about your alleged disappointment over not qualifying; I can understand that people get upset over it. But to express satisfaction with winning 3 WBC's just begs the idea that winning is the only thing that matters. Moreover, I can only hope that your "great run in WBC15" refers to the wicked inspiration you had to write a 3910-word dirge lamenting the decline of the English past subjunctive as employed by pre-Shakespearean playwrights and not to the fact that you added a third title. Moreover, if you don't "need" the World Cup, I cannot understand why you hope to influence matters that ultimately pertain to the organization that runs it. It's a bit of a contradictory tone there.

That said, my interest in sports is rather singular, and so while I have on occasions peered at WBC (and other sports) stuff, the NSWC will always hold my attention, simply because it's a game that I can (hopefully) comprehend and enjoy. I do hope that whatever does happen in other places of NS Sports, that these types of arguments do not carry on, because I come for the company, not the prize. To me, the company is the prize.

(5) @ Sel Appa: The "v"s were already quite prominent, tyvm. I think we could do with them a little less apparent actually.

[Newmanistan]

Han, I've chosen to respond to you because of my high level of respect for you... not to argue.

(2) Nonetheless, I maintain that Newmanistan's complaint (as has been noted by Somewhereistonia) never explicitly stated that his grievance was against JSY; in fact at the time, I was thinking that people were talking about Qazox, although that just might show just involved I get with these inane hypotheticals (despite creating a good number of my absurd possibilities); if Newmanistan had simply asked if - given the events that occurred during WC50/CoH42 - JSY would be admitted again, I think this confusion/heat could have been averted.

Such an inquiry should remain ambiguous. If I singled out SLANI, then it looks like it is something personal. Singling out SLANI should not be necessary if we believe that the same rules should apply to all people.

This is just a game. If after one little incident we can no longer trust another person to run an entire tournament - that is, the aim to provide trifling rewards to whomever still has the tenacity to write about whatever inspires them at the moment - then we've got some serious trust issues. Disagreements in opinion should not translate ultimately to rifts in the community (although at the moment, it appears to be setting that way now).

I'm on record for stating that I dislike the "it's just a game" argument. Yes it is just a game. It is also a game I and other spend an hour if not more on per day. Therefore there is nothing wrong with being passionate about it, and the way it works. As for rifts in the community.... the rift has been there for a while now. We keep trying to put a bandaid on it but it doesn't heal.

(4) One more point, for Newmanistan only: I do believe that if your intention was to state that the quality of the WBC is comparable to the NSWC, then there are ten thousand alternative ways to express that sentiment without leaving someone to believe that you care about "championships" (and I can say using the word "championship" accompanies nearly all of them). I personally don't care about your alleged disappointment over not qualifying; I can understand that people get upset over it. But to express satisfaction with winning 3 WBC's just begs the idea that winning is the only thing that matters. Moreover, I can only hope that your "great run in WBC15" refers to the wicked inspiration you had to write a 3910-word dirge lamenting the decline of the English past subjunctive as employed by pre-Shakespearean playwrights and not to the fact that you added a third title. Moreover, if you don't "need" the World Cup, I cannot understand why you hope to influence matters that ultimately pertain to the organization that runs it. It's a bit of a contradictory tone there.

That said, my interest in sports is rather singular, and so while I have on occasions peered at WBC (and other sports) stuff, the NSWC will always hold my attention, simply because it's a game that I can (hopefully) comprehend and enjoy. I do hope that whatever does happen in other places of NS Sports, that these types of arguments do not carry on, because I come for the company, not the prize. To me, the company is the prize.

Han, if you feel this way, then why was it was acceptable for someone else, before I even mentioned the WBC, to accuse me of only saying all this because I was bitter about not qualifying? Why is it ok for them to play the win/loss card, but not me? In fact, my response was in bringing that up was only made because of that accusation. If you are going to have an issue with my response, then where is your equivalent issue with the person who mention it in the first place. Remember before when I mentioned that rift.... here we seen an example. We can get on Newmanistan's case for mentioning win/losses, but we can't get on Valanora's (who initiated that particular point) case for saying I am only posting because I am bitter about not qualifying. I was saying, simply that the combination of not qualifying here and my run in WBC 15 was the best thing that happened to me in NS Sports. It was a response. You're kinda like being a referee who turns a blind eye to the original rough challenge, but books the retaliation.

[Starblaydia]

Just another day in the WCDT...

[Commerce Heights]

(1) Having seen C&M's more studious 20 minute furlough into the NS archives, I must concede that CH does have an active JSY account, and in accordance with NS Sport custom, should be and should have used that account for RPing purposes, if only to satisfy general requirements. The fact that the same user had account compatibility issues on the Jolt fora is not really relevant, moreover, any argument against this is just begging to follow tradition for tradition's sake. Moreover, since CH is the account owner and a cohost, CH should have really thought what anyone else - given the same circumstances - would reasonably expect. That the JSY account has existed for at least the past three days or so (in addition to however many days of RL are required to accumulate a godmoddish number of people) suggest that CH also had the capability to use the account.

Would someone please explain why a roleplay about a stadium jointly owned by Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun, home to Sokojito Dosi Gyulhabdwen (COM) and Sokojito Dosi Dalamjwijĭ (JSY), as well as hosting some home matches of both Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun, four World Cups (26, 36, 39, 45) hosted by Capitalizt SLANI, the Jasĭyun Kub final, and another World Cup (51) hosted by the PSC, which counts both Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun among its members, should have been posted with any particular account?

[The Archregimancy]

Would someone please explain why a roleplay about a stadium jointly owned by Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun, home to Sokojito Dosi Gyulhabdwen (COM) and Sokojito Dosi Dalamjwijĭ (JSY), as well as hosting some home matches of both Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun, four World Cups (26, 36, 39, 45) hosted by Capitalizt SLANI, the Jasĭyun Kub final, and another World Cup (51) hosted by the PSC, which counts both Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun among its members, should have been posted with any particular account?

The following is written in my personal capacity, not in my modly capacity.

I think, CH, that in so far as you have a problem, it's that the unconventional nature of your national federations - which have no easy RL equivalent - do occasionally cause some confusion. Your roster posts are exemplary in attempting to address the issue, but - as you've acknowledged yourself - when it comes to assigning responsibility for RPs for both RP bonuses and CoH qualification, there is considerable scope for ambiguity.

IC'ly, you've done absolutely nothing wrong, and your RP is entirely consistent with the unusual overlapping structure of your federations. But OOC'ly, you've left people in a position where they've had to make potentially controversial judgement calls on RP bonus assignment and CoH eligibility that not everyone agrees with.

There is no easy answer, but I don't necessarily think you can fairly claim that PSC/Commerce Heights posts should accrue RP bonuses and CoH eligibility for both federations, which is what you seem to be implying here (apologies if I've misunderstood). While it makes sense within the framework of your IC national structure, it's a practice that's ripe for abuse by other, less scrupulous nations fielding two teams. What would stop me from starting a Dreamed Realm account, and then claiming that posts made under that account should accrue bonuses to both Dreamed Realm nations, on the basis that the Archregimancy is, IC'ly, merely a subdivision of the Holy Empire? I realise that the latter isn't a precise analogy to your national team structure, but it does show how others could try to abuse what you seem to be arguing for.

Summed up, you have an interesting and original IC structure that's internally coherent within itself, but which doesn't easily fit into the WCC rules as currently written.

I'm not suggesting that you change your national team structure just to take into account WCC rules, or that you change your entire approach to the game; merely that you consider whether there are minor compromises that might help mitigate a repeat of the controversy in future cups.

[Sarzonia]

What were the criterion for CoH invites this time around?

Psst. Criterion is singular. Criteria is the plural. </English pedant>

[Commerce Heights]

There is no easy answer, but I don't necessarily think you can fairly claim that PSC/Commerce Heights posts should accrue RP bonuses and CoH eligibility for both federations, which is what you seem to be implying here (apologies if I've misunderstood). While it makes sense within the framework of your IC national structure, it's a practice that's ripe for abuse by other, less scrupulous nations fielding two teams. What would stop me from starting a Dreamed Realm account, and then claiming that posts made under that account should accrue bonuses to both Dreamed Realm nations, on the basis that the Archregimancy is, IC'ly, merely a subdivision of the Holy Empire? I realise that the latter isn't a precise analogy to your national team structure, but it does show how others could try to abuse what you seem to be arguing for.

I make no such claim; I have no particular interest in roleplaying bonuses. I’m claiming that, if the hosts of the World Cup or Cup of Harmony require that a particular post be attributed to a particular team for their own purposes, then it is their responsibility to make that determination. In this instance, Somewhereistonia and Queer Poco el Mono Ara made such a determination, Newmanistan disputed it, and somehow this resulted in accusations by Candelaria And Marquez, Sarzonia, Bears Armed (implicitly), Krytenia, and Daehanjeiguk that I was wrong to post with “the wrong nation” because of a determination made by the Cup of Harmony hosts.

I'm not suggesting that you change your national team structure just to take into account WCC rules, or that you change your entire approach to the game; merely that you consider whether there are minor compromises that might help mitigate a repeat of the controversy in future cups.

I am willing to consider that, but as far as I’m aware, no one has suggested such a compromise that would actually solve this issue.

Can we please move on so that I can regain my lost desire to do any roleplaying—the very thing which the roleplaying bonus and Cup of Harmony limitations were meant to encourage?

[Toyur]

I'm not suggesting that you change your national team structure just to take into account WCC rules, or that you change your entire approach to the game; merely that you consider whether there are minor compromises that might help mitigate a repeat of the controversy in future cups.

I am willing to consider that, but as far as I’m aware, no one has suggested such a compromise that would actually solve this issue.

I admittedly know little about the unique way in which your nation is set up, but perhaps at the start of your roleplays you could just put which side, either SLANI or Jasiyun, the RP is intended for? If that doesn't work with the integrity of how you've got things set up, feel free to ignore it.

[Commerce Heights]

I admittedly know little about the unique way in which your nation is set up, but perhaps at the start of your roleplays you could just put which side, either SLANI or Jasiyun, the RP is intended for? If that doesn't work with the integrity of how you've got things set up, feel free to ignore it.

The post in question was equally related to both, as I explained earlier:

Would someone please explain why a roleplay about a stadium jointly owned by Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun, home to Sokojito Dosi Gyulhabdwen (COM) and Sokojito Dosi Dalamjwijĭ (JSY), as well as hosting some home matches of both Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun, four World Cups (26, 36, 39, 45) hosted by Capitalizt SLANI, the Jasĭyun Kub final, and another World Cup (51) hosted by the PSC, which counts both Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun among its members, should have been posted with any particular account?

[Toyur]

I admittedly know little about the unique way in which your nation is set up, but perhaps at the start of your roleplays you could just put which side, either SLANI or Jasiyun, the RP is intended for? If that doesn't work with the integrity of how you've got things set up, feel free to ignore it.

The post in question was equally related to both, as I explained earlier:

Would someone please explain why a roleplay about a stadium jointly owned by Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun, home to Sokojito Dosi Gyulhabdwen (COM) and Sokojito Dosi Dalamjwijĭ (JSY), as well as hosting some home matches of both Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun, four World Cups (26, 36, 39, 45) hosted by Capitalizt SLANI, the Jasĭyun Kub final, and another World Cup (51) hosted by the PSC, which counts both Capitalizt SLANI and Jasĭyun among its members, should have been posted with any particular account?

Fair enough, but I think that those on both sides of the argument can agree that, to people unfamiliar with CH's design, it can be very confusing.

Although the stuff that's being argued here detracts from the original purpose of the NSWC and roleplaying, in that it should be enjoyable, not a chore.

[Andossa Se Mitrin Vega]

I agree with Sarzonia in the fact that there is a solid rule for just this instance - one that allows no gray area in its assessment. A nation must post a roster and a minimum of one RP to recieve an invite to the CoH. As the nation in question did not clearly post an RP, there should have been no invite issued.

That being said, I am not in favor of dictating actions to hosts that have been fairly elected by this community at large and began their hosting duties with a majority, in this case clearly so, vote of confidence. While I do not agree with the choice made in this instance, it was their choice to make and we should learn from the experience and not vote for said nation, as one only made the choice, if that is the direction we wish to take in the future.

As to what should be done as far as the current situation is concerned is a much tougher question altogether. I would say simply to post RP meant for said nation under said nation's account and that would end any confusion. But unless the community as a whole can agree as to what must be done, little of this argument means anything at all.

One thing more that needs to be said. There can be no double standard used. If one person is wrong for posting RP for different nations with one account, then all people involved are also wrong for doing so. If one person is deemed to be correct in posting RP for multiple nations under one account, then it is acceptable for any of us to do so. Again - there can be no double standard in the interpretation of the rules we follow here.

[Sarzonia]

For the sake of getting us back on track, I'm inclined to agree with ASMV's argument that we should not be in the business of dictating to hosts when they make a judgment call such as this one. We may vehemently disagree with the decision in this case, but it's a decision reached with some ambiguity being present in the minds of some of us.

Those of us who take issue with Somewhereistonia's call -- or his telling us to "get over it" -- can simply bear in mind his decision and his actions in explaining/justifying his decision when he is a candidate to host future events. And we can all do that quietly, without the rancour that has developed over the past few days.

[Commerce Heights]

I would say simply to post RP meant for said nation under said nation's account and that would end any confusion.

It was not an “RP meant for” Jasĭyun. It was not an “RP meant for” Capitalizt SLANI. It was just an RP.

[Starblaydia]

For the sake of getting us back on track, I'm inclined to agree with ASMV's argument that we should not be in the business of dictating to hosts when they make a judgment call such as this one.

2.1 ii )The host(s) of a WCC-sanctioned event have complete control and responsibility of that event, except where that control has been given to the WCC, EWCC, or WCC President by other rules

2.1 ii) Unwritten subsection b)
The hosts are responsible for any screwups.