The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, version II)

[Newmanistan]

By inviting Jasi-yun, you have blatantly gone against something you said in your bid thread as an answer to my question:

Scenario 2: Person A controls two nations (his main and his puppet). He's roleplayed with A but not B. A makes the World Cup. B doesn't. Do you allow B into the Cup of Harmony?

No.

Unless this invite is rescinded, neither of you will receive a vote from me in anything you bid for from this point on because you have shown to be untrustworthy.

[Somewhereistonia]

By inviting Jasi-yun, you have blatantly gone against something you said in your bid thread as an answer to my question:

Scenario 2: Person A controls two nations (his main and his puppet). He's roleplayed with A but not B. A makes the World Cup. B doesn't. Do you allow B into the Cup of Harmony?

No.

Unless this invite is rescinded, neither of you will receive a vote from me in anything you bid for from this point on because you have shown to be untrustworthy.

Jasiyun was roleplayed for.

EDIT: Also, promising to hold someone to ransom if they do something that you do not agree with doesn't seem a particularly mature way to go about things to me, especially for something seemingly so minor. Get over it.

EDIT2: QP hasn't been around for a couple of days, so it was me that decided to invite Jasiyun. Just thought that if future spitefulness was going around, those innocent of the supposed crime should be cleared.

[Newmanistan]

It's actually quite significant. It allows an additional top-level seed (pot 1 likely) into the competition, therefore making things more difficult for the lower seeds who have RP'd to have success and win the thing. So far, I can't find the RP.

[Valanora]

It's actually quite significant. It allows an additional top-level seed (pot 1 likely) into the competition, therefore making things more difficult for the lower seeds who have RP'd to have success and win the thing. So far, I can't find the RP.

Here is the RP.

Now if you would quit this bickering it would be appreciated. You have made it clear that you no longer wish to be involved in the World Cup for whatever reasons and yet you maintain a sign up to explicitly vote against bidders (as your own post implies). All this looks like to the casual observer is sour grapes over not being successful and deciding to take that out on innocent hosts rather than air the grievances and try to work towards a solution.

[Newmanistan]

It's actually quite significant. It allows an additional top-level seed (pot 1 likely) into the competition, therefore making things more difficult for the lower seeds who have RP'd to have success and win the thing. So far, I can't find the RP.

Here is the RP.

Now if you would quit this bickering it would be appreciated. You have made it clear that you no longer wish to be involved in the World Cup for whatever reasons and yet you maintain a sign up to explicitly vote against bidders (as your own post implies). All this looks like to the casual observer is sour grapes over not being successful and deciding to take that out on innocent hosts rather than air the grievances and try to work towards a solution.

It's under his main account and was specifically the scenario I painted. If this had been anyone else, such as me posting a West Pocono RP under Newmanistan, it would not be accepted. People have been told that for the whole time I have been here. I remember Taeshan being reamed in his early days with Taeshan/Kosovoe over exactly this kind of thing.

But yeah, I'll drop it. The casual observers can make their own opinions over this and other issues that exist in the World Cup that don't exist in other sports here.

Edit: If people do think its about sour grapes; I couldn't be happier with NS Sports right now... I'm a 3-time World Baseball Classic champion and the hockey's going great. There's more to NS Sports then the World Cup and since I "withdrew" halfway in this world cup in realizing that, I have been great about things on NS.

[Valanora]

There is no account for JSY as they are a separate federation and not nation. While I will not go into the details of that, I can tell you that posting an RP with your main account that was meant for your puppet, while frowned upon, would not normally disqualify that nation from accepting the CoH invite if it is extended.

Furthermore, as SLANI is automatically qualified for this World Cup, the RP in question could be automatically assumed to be for JSY and thus the invite is valid regardless of what I've explained above.

[Krytenia]

It's actually quite significant. It allows an additional top-level seed (pot 1 likely) into the competition, therefore making things more difficult for the lower seeds who have RP'd to have success and win the thing. So far, I can't find the RP.

Here is the RP.

Now if you would quit this bickering it would be appreciated. You have made it clear that you no longer wish to be involved in the World Cup for whatever reasons and yet you maintain a sign up to explicitly vote against bidders (as your own post implies). All this looks like to the casual observer is sour grapes over not being successful and deciding to take that out on innocent hosts rather than air the grievances and try to work towards a solution.

CH, may I suggest in future you put a little OOC note on your RPs to avoid this problem next time. If it was intended to be counted towards Jasiyun's RP total, it's somewhat ambiguous about it.

[The Weegies]

Mmf. It would help to clarify things, although I am still in favour of people using their own judgement; the same thing was an issue with the last CoH.

[Commerce Heights]

CH, may I suggest in future you put a little OOC note on your RPs to avoid this problem next time. If it was intended to be counted towards Jasiyun's RP total, it's somewhat ambiguous about it.

I didn’t “[intend it] to be counted towards Jas[ĭ]yun’s RP total”; I intended it to be somewhat fun to write and possibly slightly interesting to at least one other person. If that became a problem while I was off hosting an Olympics or something, then I must say that I was not informed of this new policy and ask that someone else restate it before I cause any further trouble.

[Peisandros]

Hosts, are we using new KP ratings or continued RP bonus? I haven't seen properly updated KP ratings anywhere...

[Daehanjeiguk]

Good grief, people... this is precisely what I was talking about a few weeks back when I mentioned overtly political gambles/schemes/whateverthehellyouwanttocallit. WCC votes/elections are not designed to be a vote contest; they're just a reasonable and minimally democratic method of choosing one or two people to run a game, like the dungeon master or something. Obviously a little trust goes a long way to building good rapport with the people you choose, but turning it into a war of ideals [particularly where interpretation of the WCC is the heart of the complaint] is not the way to put it.

Newmanistan, I must confess that your recent WCC voting behavior has been one of the factors that has left me disturbed, and I'll go further and say you're not the only one. But on the matter, seriously, if you think CH's misappropriate of NS user accounts (as has been stated, CH uses one account for both SLANI and JSY) is revolting in itself, I would strongly suggest that you stay in your "happier" sports, where "winning championships" seems to be the thema prima (at least according to your own remarks). I just hope that eventually you (and others) should realize that people come here to have fun reading and writing, perhaps one day being rewarded with something inane to brag about. And I write this not just for Newmanistan, who must be unfortunate in having posted a remark that utterly upset me to my core ["I couldn't be happier with NS Sports right now... I'm a 3-time World Baseball Classic champion and the hockey's going great"], but also for anyone else who thinks likewise.

And to be frank, if you were upset by CH's use of a solitary account for the two participants, then perhaps you should have considered the possibility of telling CH that you felt that SLANI and JSY deserved separate NS accounts - just like everyone else appears to do - rather than wait on the final results and express your complaints after the fact? Because while it may be a legitimate complaint, CH has historically used just one account - pre-dating either your or my first World Cup - for both SLANI and JSY. I'm sure that this isn't the first complaint, but the timing is rather impeccable.


Peisandros: Schiavonia posted the ranks a while back, right here; CH has confirmed that it is up-to-date and proper.

[Peisandros]

Okay, so CH updated those ranks (they were done a few games before the end of qualification) and we're using them? Sweet, thanks han.
(edit: can you please confirm this CH)

[Starblaydia]

Good grief, people... this is precisely what I was talking about a few weeks back when I mentioned overtly political gambles/schemes/whateverthehellyouwanttocallit. WCC votes/elections are not designed to be a vote contest; they're just a reasonable and minimally democratic method of choosing one or two people to run a game, like the dungeon master or something.

Han, you've said that better than I could manage: All we're doing is selecting a DM for our particular brand of D&D. Too much politics.

[The Babbage Islands]

And to be frank, if you were upset by CH's use of a solitary account for the two participants, then perhaps you should have considered the possibility of telling CH that you felt that SLANI and JSY deserved separate NS accounts - just like everyone else appears to do - rather than wait on the final results and express your complaints after the fact? Because while it may be a legitimate complaint, CH has historically used just one account - pre-dating either your or my first World Cup - for both SLANI and JSY. I'm sure that this isn't the first complaint, but the timing is rather impeccable.

Let's play fair with the commentary. Newmanistan did not "wait on the final results" to complain. He commented when the hosts of the Cup of Harmony appeared to violate the very standard they pledged to uphold in the bid process. This is a concern first expressed long before he stepped back from World Cup activity. The complaint at hand is against an asserted breach of trust, and is indeed timely to that event. Whether or not one agrees with his complaint, let it be discussed on the merits.

[Candelaria And Marquez]

There is no account for JSY as they are a separate federation and not nation.

Apart from Commerce Heights JSY, possibly?

Look, isn’t the point here that CH, principally as a result of his insanely well-earned standing within NS Sport, has consistently ‘got away’ with something – no matter how mind-numbingly minor – which other people here have received slapped wrists for?

The in-character status of the two Paripanan associations is irrelevant (Jeruselem and Jeru FC, as far as I’ve ever been able to tell, do not represent separate nations either) – Jasiyun rosters/RPs (!?) should be posted using a separate account, or at the very least accompanied with an OOC note identifying them as such (just as when those juggling two RP’d nations occasionally post using the wrong account).

That there RP was not in any way identified as being a Jasiyun one (indeed, as CH himself points out, it plainly wasn’t intended as one), and that association should not have been invited to, and handed an opportunity to win, the Cup of Harmony – again.

While I couldn’t give a small short-crust pastry containing raisins about the issue myself; Newmanistan’s complaint, and its timing, is entirely legitimate and, while the tone thereof was obviously slightly unfortunate, the ensuing dogpile on her over the last page seems a tad unnecessary to me. Anyone out there who (wrongly, I should day, in my book) perceives a certain bias both from and towards members of the #nssport old boy’s club rearing its head every now and again won’t have their concerns dispelled by the way that even piddling little matters like this are frequently dealt with.

Of course, I’ve only been cognisant of my surroundings for about twenty minutes, and am currently sitting on the sofa in my pants attempting to avoid the glare from Gary Lineker’s grimly set yet uncomfortably orange face while I await for the Slovenia versus Algeria game, so there’s a solid chance I haven’t got a clue what I’m talking about.

Toast. Need toast. Toast will bring clarity.

[Newmanistan]

Han, perhaps you missed it, but as The Weegies posted, I expressed this very concern at the same time invites for Cup of Harmony 42 were being issued and accepted. I accepted the response that it was the hosts’ decision at the time and let it go. It wasn’t the answer I was looking for but it was a perfectly valid answer and that was the end of it.

Because of that response, I went through the proper motions of creating the scenario to all prospective bidders for Cup of Harmony 43. Somewhereistonia responded no. Then, despite that answer, the invite is offered. It is therefore as TBI put it well, a breach of trust. Trust is the single-most important thing I consider in a host. There are many of us who can plug numbers into NSFS and scorinate. What separates ourselves from others is the level of trust we have, and is what impacts my votes. This was a very nonchalant move against the trust, and the ensuing response further shows that Somewhereistonia does not grasp the impact of the decision. The Cup of Harmony is for those who RP’d throughout the qualifiers and did not make the field. Dropping Jasi-yun, with his high rank, puts a “pot 1" team into the competition, thus making things a bit more difficult for the others. It would be minor if this was a 140th ranked team being put in. It’s a big deal, because this is a pot 1 team that the up and coming nations were told they would not have to deal with based on the response to the scenario presented during the bidding process.

That is a violation of trust, and to say that other people do not hold “grudges” against nations when bidding processes are held is just silly and ignorant. For it to impact my vote in future competitions is very fair.

Han, you mentioned that you were very disappointed in my added tidbit about the World Baseball Classic. Do take into consideration that I was accused of only saying this because I was bitter about not qualifying. That’s ok? Because again, I expressed the same concern prior to CoH42, and then asked the question and got the answer in the bidding process prior to my withdrawal and I was a tad annoyed that my concern would be dismissed like that. Really, it is the opposite as not qualifying for WC51 while I was having a great run in WBC15 is the greatest thing that ever happened to me on NS Sports. It helped me realize that I don’t need the World Cup... I didn’t even look at a score after MD6 or 7 or so and I was just fine with that. I know you feel that NS Sports should be about having fun and the RP, and you’re right.... take a glance at the quality of RP and fun in a WBC thread when you have a moment. Nothing happens in the World Cup that doesn’t happen in the WBC.

As for my entering of West Pocono, I had been thinking of it, but I will admit this did put me over the top.

[Sarzonia]

I'm going to go on record as supporting Newmanistan's opinion on this issue.

Based on the way the hosts answered the question Newmanistan posted in the early going, if Jasi'yun hasn't posted an RP, Jasi'yun shouldn't be invited to the Cup of Harmony period. If Commerce Heights hasn't posted an RP as Jasi'yun, that nation should not be invited to the Cup of Harmony.

And once again, this is a prime example of why I have been arguing against allowing only the EWCC to cast votes on the Cup of Harmony or the Baptism of Fire Cup. The old boys network is very, very tiresome. The fact Newmanistan's legitimate concerns have been blown off is irritating.

And before someone like Krytenia tells me "Sarz, it's over." Clearly it isn't.

[Bears Armed]

[The in-character status of the two Paripanan associations is irrelevant (Jeruselem and Jeru FC, as far as I’ve ever been able to tell, do not represent separate nations either) – Jasiyun rosters/RPs (!?) should be posted using a separate account, or at the very least accompanied with an OOC note identifying them as such (just as when those juggling two RP’d nations occasionally post using the wrong account).

That there RP was not in any way identified as being a Jasiyun one (indeed, as CH himself points out, it plainly wasn’t intended as one), and that association should not have been invited to, and handed an opportunity to win, the Cup of Harmony

I agree with this statement.

[Commerce Heights]

Okay, so CH updated those ranks (they were done a few games before the end of qualification) and we're using them? Sweet, thanks han.
(edit: can you please confirm this CH)

Schiavonia’s rankings were tabulated after the end of qualification.

That there RP was not in any way identified as being a Jasiyun one (indeed, as CH himself points out, it plainly wasn’t intended as one), and that association should not have been invited to, and handed an opportunity to win, the Cup of Harmony – again.

Only people who roleplay due to the incentives offered—viz., bonuses and Cup of Harmony qualification—rather than for their own enjoyment, should be allowed to participate in the Cup of Harmony?

I “plainly” did not intend it to be a “Capitalizt SLANI RP” either. If Jasĭyun had qualified and Capitalizt SLANI had not, should Capitalizt SLANI have been barred from participating in the Cup of Harmony for that reason?

[Sarzonia]

Only people who roleplay due to the incentives offered—viz., bonuses and Cup of Harmony qualification—rather than for their own enjoyment, should be allowed to participate in the Cup of Harmony?

That is completely missing the point. The point is that World Cup precedent has long been that you have to have a minimum of one RP with a given nation prior to being in line for an invitation to the Cup of Harmony. Jasi'yun did not meet that qualification; hence it should not have been invited to the Cup of Harmony full stop.

In my earlier days here, the Cup of Harmony seemingly had fewer nations, but it had nations who RP'd consistently regardless of reason and weren't blessed enough by Margaret to qualify for the proper. The move toward allowing in anyone who has at least one RP was a step in the wrong direction IMO, but it was one I could live with as long as the player involved had at least one RP with the nation being invited.

However, in this case, I am unwilling to simply "live with it" without the specifics of the invitation being discussed on its merits or lack thereof. The request that a player post one stinking RP to be invited into the Cup of Harmony is far from an unreasonable one. Not only that, but its steeped in tradition and precedent.

Frankly, this discussion looks like it's headed toward the ages old debate about whether or not RP bonuses should be included at all. Sorry, but that ship's already sailed.

[Krytenia]

I can see Newmanistan's point; also, I can see Somewhereistonia's. What we have here is an RP that was "intended", for all intents and purposes, as a "Paripana" RP.

Except Paripana doesn't really exist as far as the World Cup is concerned. SOM made a judgement call, based on what he thought; NEW has called him out on it, based on what she thought.

Let's not make this a divisive issue; let's respect the hosts' decision, even if some of us do disagree with it, and move on. It's not worth the hassle. I do agree with CAM, though, that the rules do seem to be waived for the COM/JSY situation, and suggest to future hosts to count RPs towards the posting nation unless the posting nation says otherwise or it is a clear mispost.

[Liventia]

The rule has always been two separate nations are required; CH has (since Jolt) used just the one to RP for both his associations (which I do not find particularly fair). However I agree with the view that it wasn't clearly an RP for either association; on that basis, and given CH's posting history within NS sports RP, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one - but still feel that he, like anyone else, should RP with the right nation.

Aside from the current controversy-of-sorts, I'm not comfortable with Newmanistan maintaining a signup for West Pocono just to keep his/her EWCC vote.

[Sarzonia]

The rule has always been two separate nations are required; CH has (since Jolt) used just the one to RP for both his associations (which I do not find particularly fair).

Not only do I consider that unfair, I consider it to be thumbing his nose at the rules everyone else lives by. It should be one account per association period.

However I agree with the view that it wasn't clearly an RP for either association; on that basis, and given CH's posting history within NS sports RP, I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this one - but still feel that he, like anyone else, should RP with the right nation.

I'm not. Rules are rules. And in response to Krytenia, I don't think this issue is in any way resolved. I think it needs to be before we "move on."

Aside from the current controversy-of-sorts, I'm not comfortable with Newmanistan maintaining a signup for West Pocono just to keep his/her EWCC vote.

I agree with this. If we are to keep the EWCC, something like that should not happen.

[Commerce Heights]

It is my opinion that it is my responsibility, as a participant, to roleplay. It is the responsibility of the World Cup hosts (in this case, me, oddly enough) to attribute those roleplays to particular teams for the purpose of assigning bonunes. It is the responsibility of the Cup of Harmony hosts to attribute those roleplays to particular teams for the purpose of deciding which teams to invite.

If “rules” give me (as a participant, not a host) any additional obligation other than to roleplay as I see fit, then this competition has strayed far from its primary purpose and I must seriously consider withdrawing.

[Starblaydia]

Basically, I agree with what Kry has said.