Community Football development thread

[Carmadin]

If the field of play is circular, the idea of forward and reverse play is a little moot, even though goal posts are opposite each other. A different way to delineate zones might be concentric circles - I don't know how that might affect rulings, but perhaps there are limits of some description. For example, perhaps you can't pass within a zone, or, you can only pass within a zone, and to cross zones you have to run with the ball, or kick it maybe. But before that is sorted, can I propose concentric circles for pitch markings?

Yessum

You can also remind me what concentric circles are......

[Wight]

If the field of play is circular, the idea of forward and reverse play is a little moot, even though goal posts are opposite each other. A different way to delineate zones might be concentric circles - I don't know how that might affect rulings, but perhaps there are limits of some description. For example, perhaps you can't pass within a zone, or, you can only pass within a zone, and to cross zones you have to run with the ball, or kick it maybe. But before that is sorted, can I propose concentric circles for pitch markings?

Yessum :)

You can also remind me what concentric circles are...... :unsure:

Shall I draw a diagram?! ...not mine, actually...

[The Babbage Islands]

How about the following three field markings, all based from a common centre point:

Touch line: a circle 75 m in diameter.
18 m line: a circle 39 m in diameter, 18 m from touch all round.
Centre circle: a circle 3 m in diameter.

The centre clrcle is used for restarting play after interruptions including balls going into touch, specifics to be hashed out.

The 18 m line divides the pitch into an inner ring/zone (inclusive of the centre circle) and an outer ring. The two rings regulate ball movement and/or scoring in a manner yet to be determined.

This uses the idea of concentric circles in a simple fashion.

[Wight]

I like it! Although the diagram I linked to was more complicated it was just for illustration and I think your simple inner/outer rings is more workable.

[The Babbage Islands]

So we have a pitch, now to work through the play on it!

[The Kiaser Colonies]

i'll take that as a no to the zones idea

EDIT: What else do we need to decide on now before the nitty-gritty of rules?

[Wight]

i'll take that as a no to the zones idea

You mean zone-based score differentiation? I think this could still work with the inner/outer zones.

EDIT: What else do we need to decide on now before the nitty-gritty of rules?

Number of players maybe? Game duration? And the general principles of whether it's a contact sport. Or is that nitty-gritty? Where does the nit-grit begin?

[Carmadin]

Yessum

You can also remind me what concentric circles are......

Shall I draw a diagram?! ...not mine, actually...

I soooo knew that.......

i'll take that as a no to the zones idea

You mean zone-based score differentiation? I think this could still work with the inner/outer zones.

EDIT: What else do we need to decide on now before the nitty-gritty of rules?

Number of players maybe? Game duration? And the general principles of whether it's a contact sport. Or is that nitty-gritty? Where does the nit-grit begin?

I love the idea of zone-based scoring, and definetly think it should be implemented.
Number of players, if we are going with a 75-meter-wide pitch, I think 8 or 9 would work just dandy
Contact sport is defined more or less by "popping", that is, some contact, but not too much.

The Nitty-gritty starts, I think, with the working out of Player positions, technical rules (will there be an offside? etc...), Fouls, punishments for fouls (Penalty shot, sin bin, free kick/throw), movement of the ball (forward passing? yes/no, kicking?), scoring of goals (hitting, throwing, kicking, all 3, or some other way?)(I'm assuming kicking, or drop-kicks), what to do when the ball goes into touch (A throw-in or lineout? A tip-off? The non-offending team restarts?), and much more.

[Carmadin]

So we have a pitch, now to work through the play on it!

(Image)

That looks great! (sorry doublepost, but i just saw this)

[Triimoria]

Only problem with "popping" is that the game would probably have to be either basketball-like or would have to run quite slowly for safety reasons. Although this looks very interesting, I like the zones idea. (certain positions in certain zones in a netball-like way?)

[Bears Armed]

If the field of play is circular, the idea of forward and reverse play is a little moot, even though goal posts are opposite each other. A different way to delineate zones might be concentric circles - I don't know how that might affect rulings, but perhaps there are limits of some description. For example, perhaps you can't pass within a zone, or, you can only pass within a zone, and to cross zones you have to run with the ball, or kick it maybe. But before that is sorted, can I propose concentric circles for pitch markings?

I think that we just found the name of the game: 'Target', of course... ^_^
(Seriously, why not?)

[Wight]

If the field of play is circular, the idea of forward and reverse play is a little moot, even though goal posts are opposite each other. A different way to delineate zones might be concentric circles - I don't know how that might affect rulings, but perhaps there are limits of some description. For example, perhaps you can't pass within a zone, or, you can only pass within a zone, and to cross zones you have to run with the ball, or kick it maybe. But before that is sorted, can I propose concentric circles for pitch markings?

I think that we just found the name of the game: 'Target', of course... ^_^
(Seriously, why not?)

I would vote for it.

[The Kiaser Colonies]

My thoughts:

Number of players: 9
3 backs, 3 midfielder (1 CM, 2 lifters [see restarts]) 3 forwards

Restarts:
To start a match, half, quarter i had an idea of a lineout kind of thing. In the centre of the pitch a ref throws the ball up, the moment the ref blows the whistle (when he throws the ball up) the lifters lift the centre mid up to compete for the ball. If the CM is lifted before the whistle the other team gets a free, if a player pushes/pulls an opposition lifter of CM while the CM is in the air it is also a free. The ball may not be "popped" while the CM is in the air. What do you think? do you like the lift idea but want to revise the rules or is it ok?

for things like the ball going into touch maybe just a throw in style play that could be a kick or throw.

Scoring: Zones please!

[Wight]

I think this is developing nicely, one issue at a time, and in an effort to keep that momentum up, I will do a TBI-like bridging post to get us to the next stage. I have made some firm proposals in an effort to start getting more detail set, but of course, I won't be offended by objections. But let's try to keep this moving forward, if we can.

So, from TBI, which seems mostly to have earned consensus:

The sport of {insert name here} is a field game played by two teams of {7/8/9/10/11/12?} players on a circular pitch of 75m metres in diameter.

The object for each team is to score goals by kicking {or hand-passing? or throwing?} a rugby football between two uprights {insert width} metres apart and above a crossbar between the uprights 5 m above the ground. The goals are set diametrically opposite one another, with each team defending one goal and attempting to score through the other.

Players may freely run with, kick, hand-pass, or throw the ball. However, except in the act of relinquishing possession a player with possession of the ball must maintain it in both hands, in front of the body, and not touching any other part of the body. The principal means of challenging for such a held ball is "popping", where a defender attempts to strike the ball out of the attacker's hands.

Touch line: a circle 75 m in diameter.
18 m line: a circle 39 m in diameter, 18 m from touch all round.
Centre circle: a circle 3 m in diameter.

The centre clrcle is used for restarting play after interruptions including balls going into touch, specifics to be hashed out.

From TKC: In the centre of the pitch a ref throws the ball up, the moment the ref blows the whistle (when he throws the ball up) the lifters lift the centre mid up to compete for the ball. If the CM is lifted before the whistle the other team gets a free, if a player pushes/pulls an opposition lifter of CM while the CM is in the air it is also a free. The ball may not be "popped" while the CM is in the air.

The 18 m line divides the pitch into an inner ring/zone (inclusive of the centre circle) and an outer ring. The two rings regulate ball movement and/or scoring in a manner yet to be determined.

Can I propose we ratify TKC's suggestion for restarts? I suggest that unless anyone objects, Carmadin adds this to the general agreed rule set - which should go in the OP, I think, if it's been agreed.

---

The three things which have been mostly under discussion since:

1. Scoring
2. Zones
3. Player Numbers

Can I propose we settle on the player numbers, so we have another rule under our belts. Suggestions from the beginning of the thread -

Cyborg Holland 7
Freres la Cote 9
Carmadin 11, then 8-9
TBI 7-9
TKC 11, then 9

Correct me if I've missed any, but I think we have community agreement on 9.

I therefore propose that Carmadin sets it in stone so we can say we have a 9-a-side on a circular pitch. Any objections?

---

If that is sorted, might we move on to scoring, which is certainly piquing everybody's interest. Shall we make this the next topic of discussion, if no-one has any objections to TKC's restart description, or the team sizes?

The three detailed suggestions we have so far:

Players score in the triangle goals by throwing or kicking the ball but they cannot score from inside the penalty area and you receive 2 points from scoring this way. You may also kick the ball through one of the three hoops. The middle hoop is worth 5 points and the outer hoops are worth 3. If you score a penalty you get 1 point.

* Megadia wrote early on before concensus was reached on the field and goalposts, but I still think this is worth considering to adapt to our new plans.

this probably isn't the best idea but, what if certain distances from the goal were worth more points to score from? say every 10-15 metres or something, a "zone" is marked with a line and the score is x value higher. But the "zones" only go back 3 times e.g, first zone (within 10-15 metres of the goal) is 1 point, second zone (another 10-15 metres back) is 2 and the final zone and everything behind it is 3. The scores don't have to be 1-3 and the added value can be more than 1, it's just an example.

One suggestion I have for scoring is derived from Finnish baseball, which is supported by xkoranate in the latest version. It doesn't affect the scoring of goals but does affect results. The idea is to award a match point to the team scoring the most goals in each of three periods; no point is awarded if the score is tied for a period. Should the match score be 1-1 or 0-0 after the third period, a golden-goal "fourth period" of indefinite length is played to determine a winner. League standings can be determined by wins, by periods won, or by periods won minus periods lost. This would provide a unique scoring twist and sidestep questions of just how many goals would be likely to be scored in x minutes by y players on a z-size pitch using untested rules. I can adapt the needed xkoranate file for the six possible results (3-0, 2-1, 2-0, 1-0, 2-1 (gg), and 1-0 (gg)) in minutes.

I have excluded a detailed game description by Freres la Cote on page 1 because we haven't gone in his direction of a martial arts-football fusion, but having read it again, I feel it's right to acknowledge a detailed contribution which seems to have been generally overlooked.

Do we have any more thoughts on scoring - responses to the proposals above, new ideas?

That is me done for the time being, I hand it over to someone else to run with / punt with / throw into touch...

[The Kiaser Colonies]

-snip-

I agree on the 9 player team. Personally i don't like the idea of the Finnish baseball scoring. It ruins the sporting feel of still being able to turn around and win in the third period after being behind for the other 2. huge thanks to Wight on bring this together

[Harjeland]

I know that other ideas are agreed upon and are well on their way development-wise, but I'm just throwing some of my ideas out there. (sorry about the length)

The circular pitch idea I like, but to make it different two teams of (insert number here) players would attempt to score on the middle of the pitch on an elevated hoop, like those used for scoring in quiddich (sp?), with a round ball. There could be zones, like the current concept, and you would use your feet like in soccer when outside of the center circle around the hoop. Inside the center circle, you could use feet and hands, simply picking up the ball or popping it up with your feet to your hands to toss it into the hoop. Each goal would be worth one point, and there would be two halves of (insert time here) minutes with no stoppages unless there is a foul. Players could score from anywhere on the field, but if it is outside of the center circle they would need to kick the ball into the hoop, which is rarely successful. Players could also pass in any direction, including across to the other side of the field. Contact rules would mostly be the same as in soccer, but in the center circle tackles like in rugby or American football would be allowed. There could be one player acting like a goalie, whose job is to guard the goal area and tackle any attackers that come in. However, normal player rules apply to the goalie when outside the center circle. If the ball is kicked into the center circle, the goalie can use his hands to catch the ball or pick it up, after which he must pass it to any of his teammates on the field. There would be no offsides, but a choice for teams of any defending style they want, man-to-man or zonal. To commence play, the ball could be placed anywhere on the edge of the outside circle by the team that was scored on, where they would pass to any player of their team on the field. Teams would try to score inward, making for a totally different style of play with more 3-D thinking. If a team steals the ball, they must bring the ball back out from the goal and past a line a few meters in from the touch line and turn around to attack again. A common tactic could be to have a "recoverer" wait in the recovery zone to receive the ball from a long kick from the 'keeper so that defense could quickly be turned to attack, not giving the opposing team a chance to organize well. If the ball goes out of the touch line, then there could be a throw-in like in soccer or something else.

If you guys have suggestions, want to use my idea, or think it's a bunch of baloney, just tell me.
Just putting ideas out, thought it could be interesting. Thanks!

[Wight]

Personally i don't like the idea of the Finnish baseball scoring. It ruins the sporting feel of still being able to turn around and win in the third period after being behind for the other 2

As a football (soccer) person, I agree with TKC. The baseball scoring relegates scoring to second place behind the match-point, which I don't like so much.

Harjeland thanks for putting that out there. The concern I have is that if we keep going back on things we've started to agree, we'll never get a game designed. I don't know how others think, but for me, we have to start setting cut-offs for some of the basics. If people want to consider changes that Harjeland has put in, all well and good, but at some point, surely, we'll need to stop. What would've been great was if Harj had responded to the scoring question based on the settings we had (almost) agreed on.

EDIT: Although, I guess, it's only the position of the goal posts that fundamentally changes what we've already got. Thoughts people?

[Carmadin]

Bigg long awesome snip

Nine-a-side it is then!

As for scoring, I do not like the idea of the Finnish baseball, for the reasons already expressed. I think that a "normal" score, simply counting the amount of goals scored, will be fine.
As for how those goals are scored, I personally am in favor of simply kicking the ball through rugby-style goalposts, with kicks from diferent zones earning more points.

[Carmadin]

Spoiler in OP edited with a combination of TBI's and Wight's write-ups

[The Kiaser Colonies]

YES! I made one of the most important rules of the game. Nobody could start if it wasn't for me

A huge thanks to Carmadin, Wight and TBI for really saving this from the dust bin of forgotten ideas

[The Babbage Islands]

Miscellaneous thoughts:

We need to define exactly what we mean by "a free" in TKC's start/restart rule.

I'm on board with Target as a possible name, although Community Football is OK.

It's possible to envision a game where kicking through your set of uprights AND throwing/hand-balling through a central hoop are both means of scoring, although this would conflict with TKC's start rule so is probably not a go.

How do the inner and outer rings affect play?

More later

[The Kiaser Colonies]

Miscellaneous thoughts:
We need to define exactly what we mean by "a free" in TKC's start/restart rule.

Good point, what i envisioned would be that the fouled player is given possession of the ball and is free to either run with it, kick it (for goal or a pass) or hand pass/throw it to another player. Would this be also suitable for an in play offence like illegally popping?

[Carmadin]

Miscellaneous thoughts:
We need to define exactly what we mean by "a free" in TKC's start/restart rule.

Good point, what i envisioned would be that the fouled player is given possession of the ball and is free to either run with it, kick it (for goal or a pass) or hand pass/throw it to another player. Would this be also suitable for an in play offence like illegally popping?

So a turnover of possesion, or like a free kick?
This would also need a "play advantage" rule

[Wight]

I do hope more people will come to the table with ideas. I was a bit hasty with Harj, having just aggregated some thoughts so far into a big post I read the first sentence along the lines of 'I know you've decided, but..." and then read the rest slightly with prejudice. I hope I haven't put Harj or others off from contributing.

On scoring, if Harj's central goalpost is ruled out by the restart rules, one way to adapt the style of play that s/he was getting at would be to make scoring through both goals possible - that is to say, you can defend and attack each goal.

How about formal and informal names for the sport, like Association Football and Soccer: Community Football and Target...

[Filopines]

I like this!