World Baseball Classic Discussion Thread

[Schiltzberg]

What about points for serving as WBC President? I realize that it is unlikely that a nation would have been elected president without having been successful enough to be inducted, but since the IRL HoF recognizes commissioners, it's something we might want to consider.

Side note: I don't suggest this because of any benefit to me. I currently come in at the 10 seasons, 10 points qualification.

It is an interesting thing to consider, but do we have a list of WBC Presidents anywhere? If not, it would probably be really hard to dig through the archives and find it. OHHHH, and if we do find a list of Presidents, I'm totally adding it to the WBC history factbook.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

We'd appreciate that historic insight if you ever find the time. It'd be great to learn even more about old classics.

I just thought about something. What if a nation's puppet has points for the HOF? Do we give the points to the main nation? For example, do we give Saintland points for Ilyseum's co-hosting of WBC 37? I think that we should, but only in the case that the main nation did not also participate. For example, if Schiltzberg participates and puppet New Schiltzberg also participates, then in the case that New Schiltzberg won, then the main nation would not get points, but then if New Schiltzberg wins and Schiltzberg does not participate, then Schiltzberg gets points for that, since New Schiltzberg was acting as the main nation. It's an idea.

And how about nations which used the rank of another nation at one point? At one point, Feministvs Sanctvsterra was using Saintland's rank but a different name. And now of course it's West Saintland, yet another nation. And it could be Saintland again eventually if he decides on a reunification storyline like the Germany RL situation it's loosely based on.

[Frenline Delpha]

I just thought about something. What if a nation's puppet has points for the HOF? Do we give the points to the main nation? For example, do we give Saintland points for Ilyseum's co-hosting of WBC 37? I think that we should, but only in the case that the main nation did not also participate. For example, if Schiltzberg participates and puppet New Schiltzberg also participates, then in the case that New Schiltzberg won, then the main nation would not get points, but then if New Schiltzberg wins and Schiltzberg does not participate, then Schiltzberg gets points for that, since New Schiltzberg was acting as the main nation. It's an idea.

And how about nations which used the rank of another nation at one point? At one point, Feministvs Sanctvsterra was using Saintland's rank but a different name. And now of course it's West Saintland, yet another nation. And it could be Saintland again eventually if he decides on a reunification storyline like the Germany RL situation it's loosely based on.

This is agood question, and its worth examining. I think it'd be a good idea to clarify a part of the proposal.

[Saintland]

What about points for serving as WBC President? I realize that it is unlikely that a nation would have been elected president without having been successful enough to be inducted, but since the IRL HoF recognizes commissioners, it's something we might want to consider.

Side note: I don't suggest this because of any benefit to me. I currently come in at the 10 seasons, 10 points qualification.

It is an interesting thing to consider, but do we have a list of WBC Presidents anywhere? If not, it would probably be really hard to dig through the archives and find it. OHHHH, and if we do find a list of Presidents, I'm totally adding it to the WBC history factbook.

I'm pretty sure the presidency was only created 15 cycles or so ago, so it shouldn't be that hard to compile a complete list of Presidents. I think there's only been 5 or 6 presidents total.

[Frenline Delpha]

It is an interesting thing to consider, but do we have a list of WBC Presidents anywhere? If not, it would probably be really hard to dig through the archives and find it. OHHHH, and if we do find a list of Presidents, I'm totally adding it to the WBC history factbook.

I'm pretty sure the presidency was only created 15 cycles or so ago, so it shouldn't be that hard to compile a complete list of Presidents. I think there's only been 5 or 6 presidents total.

Then I know what I'm doing over Winter Break if this amendment passes. Finding any potential puppets/main nations that both placed at one time, and finding all of the WBC presidents.

[Schiltzberg]

It is an interesting thing to consider, but do we have a list of WBC Presidents anywhere? If not, it would probably be really hard to dig through the archives and find it. OHHHH, and if we do find a list of Presidents, I'm totally adding it to the WBC history factbook.

I'm pretty sure the presidency was only created 15 cycles or so ago, so it shouldn't be that hard to compile a complete list of Presidents. I think there's only been 5 or 6 presidents total.

I'm wondering if there are any elder members here who could list as many as they know. I know it was Nova, and I think Llama before that. That is all I know.

[Frenline Delpha]

I'm pretty sure the presidency was only created 15 cycles or so ago, so it shouldn't be that hard to compile a complete list of Presidents. I think there's only been 5 or 6 presidents total.

I'm wondering if there are any elder members here who could list as many as they know. I know it was Nova, and I think Llama before that. That is all I know.

If WBC hosts have made a habit of linking to the sign-ups in the OP, finding every president should be no problem.

Also, you should link to the history dispatch in your sig.

[Ethane]

Think we should still vote on them. The nation with the highest number of points at the end of the cycle is voted on - if they win, they are inducted; if they lose, they are not. (obviously you would have to then not vote on that nation for a certain amount of editions.

Or... the team with the highest amount of points is inducted into the HoF at the end of a cycle, meaning that there is 1 new HoF entry per Classic.

[Saintland]

I'm pretty sure the presidency was only created 15 cycles or so ago, so it shouldn't be that hard to compile a complete list of Presidents. I think there's only been 5 or 6 presidents total.

I'm wondering if there are any elder members here who could list as many as they know. I know it was Nova, and I think Llama before that. That is all I know.

The only other presidents since I've been around were Saugeais and Maklohi Vai. I think Saugeais was the first, but I'd have to look through this thread to verify this.

[Frenline Delpha]

Think we should still vote on them. The nation with the highest number of points at the end of the cycle is voted on - if they win, they are inducted; if they lose, they are not. (obviously you would have to then not vote on that nation for a certain amount of editions.

Or... the team with the highest amount of points is inducted into the HoF at the end of a cycle, meaning that there is 1 new HoF entry per Classic.

My problem with that proposal is simple. I feel like it would create excessive backlog. If only one team can be inducted per cycle, we would use up out first eight tournaments (from where I currently am) electing older nationa to the HoF. And honestly, that seems like too long. I also don't like the idea of voting for a HoF, as that would strike mute the poitn system in the first place. I wrote the proposal on the grounds of nations who have done impressive and numerous things in the WBC history should be honored. I do not believe that electing who is allowed into the HoF fits with this view. If you do not like the way the current proposal is written, you can vote against it and hope enough of the rest of the council do the same. Then, changes can be made. However, the way I have it currently written, barring some clarification, is how it will be presented to vote. Unless enough people clamor for the change through the vote.

[Drawkland]

Think we should still vote on them. The nation with the highest number of points at the end of the cycle is voted on - if they win, they are inducted; if they lose, they are not. (obviously you would have to then not vote on that nation for a certain amount of editions.

Or... the team with the highest amount of points is inducted into the HoF at the end of a cycle, meaning that there is 1 new HoF entry per Classic.

My problem with that proposal is simple. I feel like it would create excessive backlog. If only one team can be inducted per cycle, we would use up out first eight tournaments (from where I currently am) electing older nationa to the HoF. And honestly, that seems like too long.

Voting I feel is unnecessary.

But we could bypass the backlog by retroactively inducting members, calculating the points Classic by Classic starting at number 1.

[Ethane]

Think we should still vote on them. The nation with the highest number of points at the end of the cycle is voted on - if they win, they are inducted; if they lose, they are not. (obviously you would have to then not vote on that nation for a certain amount of editions.

Or... the team with the highest amount of points is inducted into the HoF at the end of a cycle, meaning that there is 1 new HoF entry per Classic.

My problem with that proposal is simple. I feel like it would create excessive backlog. If only one team can be inducted per cycle, we would use up out first eight tournaments (from where I currently am) electing older nationa to the HoF. And honestly, that seems like too long. I also don't like the idea of voting for a HoF, as that would strike mute the poitn system in the first place. I wrote the proposal on the grounds of nations who have done impressive and numerous things in the WBC history should be honored. I do not believe that electing who is allowed into the HoF fits with this view. If you do not like the way the current proposal is written, you can vote against it and hope enough of the rest of the council do the same. Then, changes can be made. However, the way I have it currently written, barring some clarification, is how it will be presented to vote. Unless enough people clamor for the change through the vote.

Well, what I would suggest in that case is a bulk induction of all those previous, and then include the voting rule for future HoF inductions. But if we're sticking with what we got...

[Schiltzberg]

Me and Frenline Delpha made this spreadsheet for in the case that the Hall of Fame amendment passes. The points are based off of the current proposal from Frenline Delpha. The nations that would get automatically inducted into the HOF are in green, and the ones that have less than 10 points (and therefore do not qualify) are in red. The ones in white have between 10 and 20 points, and would be up for a vote from the council, if they have 10 or more seasons in the WBC. I have not checked which ones of those have 10 or more seasons, since the amendment hasn't passed yet. Also, tell me if you can't see the spreadsheet. I may have to change the permissions on it. If you notice any errors on this spreadsheet, please notify me, and I will fix them. Me and Frenline each made a spreadsheet and then cross-checked them, so I think that we fixed all of the errors, but there may still be a couple.

[Newmanistan]

Thought I was an ex-President here, but I guess I am thinking about the World Bowl. Using a search on the keyword "President" on this thread, I was immediately reminded of Qazox's insistence of self-proclaiming himself as Commissioner for such a long time and the rest of us being annoyed with that. What an interesting trip down memory lane that was.....

Anyway, it appears as though Saintland was correct by stating that Saugeais was the first President.

[Ethane]

Me and Frenline Delpha made this spreadsheet for in the case that the Hall of Fame amendment passes. The points are based off of the current proposal from Frenline Delpha. The nations that would get automatically inducted into the HOF are in green, and the ones that have less than 10 points (and therefore do not qualify) are in red. The ones in white have between 10 and 20 points, and would be up for a vote from the council, if they have 10 or more seasons in the WBC. I have not checked which ones of those have 10 or more seasons, since the amendment hasn't passed yet. Also, tell me if you can't see the spreadsheet. I may have to change the permissions on it. If you notice any errors on this spreadsheet, please notify me, and I will fix them. Me and Frenline each made a spreadsheet and then cross-checked them, so I think that we fixed all of the errors, but there may still be a couple.

You do need to change permissions.

[Newmanistan]

As far as a little bit of history that should be noted when considering the Hall of Fame, I think it's important here that all current users know this: Qazox, Prux, and Green Wombat were the same person and he never declared the other two as puppets. He would eventually confess to this in the World Cup Discussion Thread way back when. Never declared them as puppets there as well, and if you know the World Cup, you know that didn't go over well. Therefore, Prux and Green Wombat should never be considered for HoF consideration.... even though they probably would not be voted in anyway. Qazox was also impeached from the WBC, so we have actually used that little tidbit. That said, he did do a lot for the WBC. Another nation that did a lot for the tournament in the early days is Liventia.

When considering older nations for the Hall Of Fame, the stats will be up there about my championships or Qazox, Zwangzug, or Cassadaigua's, but a nation that could get lost in the shuffle from this era is Tocrowkia. They really were a tough luck playoff loser many times and just in the wrong place at the wrong time, almost all the time. They were a great roleplayer, as well.

Schiltzberg put together an excellent factbook page about past winners and history, and other then giving Tocrowkia a little more credit then maybe that list will show, I do think it gives a pretty good idea of who was good and for how long they were good. We had the occasional pass through great RPers like Tarrentum for example, but they only last 3-4 Classics.

My proposal would be to admit up to eight nations from the WBC 1-20 period right from the start, and we could hold a vote on that. I would propose that all WBC members currently and all nations that participated in a WBC from 1-20 could have a vote.

[Schiltzberg]

As far as a little bit of history that should be noted when considering the Hall of Fame, I think it's important here that all current users know this: Qazox, Prux, and Green Wombat were the same person and he never declared the other two as puppets. He would eventually confess to this in the World Cup Discussion Thread way back when. Never declared them as puppets there as well, and if you know the World Cup, you know that didn't go over well. Therefore, Prux and Green Wombat should never be considered for HoF consideration.... even though they probably would not be voted in anyway. Qazox was also impeached from the WBC, so we have actually used that little tidbit. That said, he did do a lot for the WBC. Another nation that did a lot for the tournament in the early days is Liventia.

When considering older nations for the Hall Of Fame, the stats will be up there about my championships or Qazox, Zwangzug, or Cassadaigua's, but a nation that could get lost in the shuffle from this era is Tocrowkia. They really were a tough luck playoff loser many times and just in the wrong place at the wrong time, almost all the time. They were a great roleplayer, as well.

Schiltzberg put together an excellent factbook page about past winners and history, and other then giving Tocrowkia a little more credit then maybe that list will show, I do think it gives a pretty good idea of who was good and for how long they were good. We had the occasional pass through great RPers like Tarrentum for example, but they only last 3-4 Classics.

My proposal would be to admit up to eight nations from the WBC 1-20 period right from the start, and we could hold a vote on that. I would propose that all WBC members currently and all nations that participated in a WBC from 1-20 could have a vote.

I appreciate your insight, and wow, I didn't know that about Green Wombat. When Qazox was impeached, was it only from the council, or was it from the entire tournament? I was thinking that it must have just been from the council, since Qazox was an active participant up until around WBC 29 or so, and then ceased to exist. I heard that there was also some controversy with Sarzonia almost getting impeached at some point. Is that true?

As far as the electing into the Hall of Fame goes, it seems like every council member has a different idea of how the nations should be inducted. Some believe they should be voted on, and some people, like me, believe that the inductees should be chosen exclusively by points. I am urging all of you (and I think that this is as fair of a compromise as we can get) to simply support Frenline Delpha's proposal. I think that his proposal represents both sides by allowing the nations with a lot of points to be automatically inducted in, and it also has a way for the council to vote nations in as well. I think that everyone on the council is in support of the Hall of Fame idea, but I am afraid that the amendment won't pass, since no one can agree on how to induct members. My idea is to just compromise and follow Frenline's idea, especially since he has done the best job of actually constructing his idea, and has laid out his proposal.

[Schiltzberg]

Me and Frenline Delpha made this spreadsheet for in the case that the Hall of Fame amendment passes. The points are based off of the current proposal from Frenline Delpha. The nations that would get automatically inducted into the HOF are in green, and the ones that have less than 10 points (and therefore do not qualify) are in red. The ones in white have between 10 and 20 points, and would be up for a vote from the council, if they have 10 or more seasons in the WBC. I have not checked which ones of those have 10 or more seasons, since the amendment hasn't passed yet. Also, tell me if you can't see the spreadsheet. I may have to change the permissions on it. If you notice any errors on this spreadsheet, please notify me, and I will fix them. Me and Frenline each made a spreadsheet and then cross-checked them, so I think that we fixed all of the errors, but there may still be a couple.

You do need to change permissions.

Okay, thank you for telling me. I think that it is public now, so you should be able to view it. Here is the link again if it is any different. I think the old one is the same, but whatever.

[Ethane]

Can I propose an alternative suggestion? One which would allow nations such as Tocrowkia to enter the Hall of Fame, while maintaining the points idea.

The idea of inducting a nation into the HoF for reaching a certain number of points would stick, but alternative to the other aspect of the proposal is where my idea would come in.

My idea would be to allow members of the WBC Council to nominate members who they believe are worthy of a place in the HoF. Then the President/Vice-President would approve/disapprove, and if the President or Vice-President approve of the nomination, the nation's entry into the HoF would be voted upon by the council, and if approved by the council, would then be able to take a position in the HoF. This maintains the idea of points induction, while leaving room to induct nations who may not get the points necessary to enter the HoF, or who did a lot for the sport but never really got recognised for it. This sorta sticks to Frenline's idea, with a few deviations.

[Newmanistan]

When Qazox was impeached, was it only from the council, or was it from the entire tournament? I was thinking that it must have just been from the council, since Qazox was an active participant up until around WBC 29 or so, and then ceased to exist.

Qazox was only impeached from the council. He was allowed to still participate. Looks like he came back from a hiatus if he was in #29.

I heard that there was also some controversy with Sarzonia almost getting impeached at some point. Is that true?

There was a period in time when this thread got ugly and was nearly locked by the mods, I think a couple times. In a tense moment, in what is not something I am terribly proud of, I did draw up an impeachment procedure on him, but it was rescinded rather quickly and never actually voted on.


Now...
In looking at the points spreadsheet, I would say everyone up to Az-cz would be deserving, but then we start to get hairy... was Taeshan better then Tocrowkia? I don't even think Taeshan was better then Secristan or Sarzonia but the points are what they are. I would say a vote would get a better result, but unless there's a lot of older nations voting, the vote is just going to look like that spreadsheet, so we might as well just use the spreadsheet.

[Saintland]

Are nations that changed names being counted as a single nation or separate nations? If they're counted as a single nation, then Sangti and The Royal Barangay should be combined.

If we're counting puppets along with the main nations, then Ilyseum should be combined with my points (I only entered them because it didn't make IC sense for West Saintland to host last cycle while they were still a warzone). In that case, Hicana and The Northern Union are Llama's puppets, Chromatika was Yesopalitha and I think (but am not 100% certain) that Sportsgirls was a TBI puppet.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

When Qazox was impeached, was it only from the council, or was it from the entire tournament? I was thinking that it must have just been from the council, since Qazox was an active participant up until around WBC 29 or so, and then ceased to exist.

Qazox was only impeached from the council. He was allowed to still participate. Looks like he came back from a hiatus if he was in #29.

I heard that there was also some controversy with Sarzonia almost getting impeached at some point. Is that true?

There was a period in time when this thread got ugly and was nearly locked by the mods, I think a couple times. In a tense moment, in what is not something I am terribly proud of, I did draw up an impeachment procedure on him, but it was rescinded rather quickly and never actually voted on.


Now...
In looking at the points spreadsheet, I would say everyone up to Az-cz would be deserving, but then we start to get hairy... was Taeshan better then Tocrowkia? I don't even think Taeshan was better then Secristan or Sarzonia but the points are what they are. I would say a vote would get a better result, but unless there's a lot of older nations voting, the vote is just going to look like that spreadsheet, so we might as well just use the spreadsheet.

Is Sarzonia the guy who tried to stalk Baklava to his prom, or whatever his name was? Or did Baklava stalk him?

[Schiltzberg]

Can I propose an alternative suggestion? One which would allow nations such as Tocrowkia to enter the Hall of Fame, while maintaining the points idea.

The idea of inducting a nation into the HoF for reaching a certain number of points would stick, but alternative to the other aspect of the proposal is where my idea would come in.

My idea would be to allow members of the WBC Council to nominate members who they believe are worthy of a place in the HoF. Then the President/Vice-President would approve/disapprove, and if the President or Vice-President approve of the nomination, the nation's entry into the HoF would be voted upon by the council, and if approved by the council, would then be able to take a position in the HoF. This maintains the idea of points induction, while leaving room to induct nations who may not get the points necessary to enter the HoF, or who did a lot for the sport but never really got recognised for it. This sorta sticks to Frenline's idea, with a few deviations.

Hmmmm... I like this idea. I don't want to completely do away with Frenline's way either though. Maybe we could combine them. How about we add a third way to get elected into Frenline's proposal, and it would be by nomination. That way, players that were good, but did not play for 10 seasons would still have a chance. I think that there should still be a minimum of 10 points to get in though, so you would not be able to nominate anyone with less than ten points.

My proposal is to add a section in between Sections 4 and 5 of Frenline Delpha's proposal that would read like this:

Section Five: The third way for a nation to be elected into the Hall of Fame is by nomination. A World Baseball Classic council member may nominate any nation that has more than 10 points and less than 20 points to be potentially voted into the Hall of Fame. After receiving nomination, the entire council will vote on whether or not the nation should be elected into the Hall of Fame, and if the nation receives a majority of the votes of the council, then that nation is inducted into the Hall of Fame. There is no requirement regarding the number of seasons participated in for a nation to be nominated in this way.

In looking at the points spreadsheet, I would say everyone up to Az-cz would be deserving, but then we start to get hairy... was Taeshan better then Tocrowkia? I don't even think Taeshan was better then Secristan or Sarzonia but the points are what they are. I would say a vote would get a better result, but unless there's a lot of older nations voting, the vote is just going to look like that spreadsheet, so we might as well just use the spreadsheet.

I agree, and that is the reason why I came up with the idea of a point system with my original idea a long time ago. I felt like if the players were simply voted in, then the council would elect a lot of current players into the Hall of Fame that probably aren't very deserving, and then we would overlook the old players that had a lot of success, simply because we don't know who they are. In my opinion, the whole point of a Hall of Fame is so that those older players do not get forgotten, so that is why I came up with the point system. I see why the voting part is necessary too, and I think that that is good so that players who weren't lucky enough to get a lot of points can still get into the Hall of Fame.

[Gregoryisgodistan]

Are nations that changed names being counted as a single nation or separate nations? If they're counted as a single nation, then Sangti and The Royal Barangay should be combined.

If we're counting puppets along with the main nations, then Ilyseum should be combined with my points (I only entered them because it didn't make IC sense for West Saintland to host last cycle while they were still a warzone). In that case, Hicana and The Northern Union are Llama's puppets, Chromatika was Yesopalitha and I think (but am not 100% certain) that Sportsgirls was a TBI puppet.

I thought Sportsgirls was Cassadaigua. I could be wrong though.

[Schiltzberg]

Are nations that changed names being counted as a single nation or separate nations? If they're counted as a single nation, then Sangti and The Royal Barangay should be combined.

If we're counting puppets along with the main nations, then Ilyseum should be combined with my points (I only entered them because it didn't make IC sense for West Saintland to host last cycle while they were still a warzone). In that case, Hicana and The Northern Union are Llama's puppets, Chromatika was Yesopalitha and I think (but am not 100% certain) that Sportsgirls was a TBI puppet.

I thought Sportsgirls was Cassadaigua. I could be wrong though.

See, this is why I am hesitant to combine scores between puppet nations and main nations. It gets kind of sketchy and really confusing really quickly.