International Basketball OOC Thread

[International Basketball Organization]

Ranks incoming tonight I hope.

This wasn't a lie.

Check out the Post-IBC 23 Ranks here, and please let me know if I've made any mistakes.

Drawk out.

EDIT: made the link actually exist. That's what I get for not clicking preview for the first time in months.

[Abaja]

-wanted to make it short

Hello NS members! I just wanted to inform you all that I have been going through some busy and stressful times, and will unfortunately be unable to have any free time on NS. It could be like this for months, so it would be a while before you all see me again.

Will I retire from NS permanently?
-Not likely, I will make a few stop by's every now and then.

Will I still participate in NS Sports ?
-Highly unlikely. I'll have almost no time to post an RP or roster anymore.

When these problems are sorted out, you all will see me pop up more often

[Vangaziland]

Breaks happen at times, Abaja. I hope all your stuff gets worked out and that you'll be back before you know it. I still haven't come back fully from my autumn break, as evidenced from my two RP-less seasons.

On that note, expect a new tournament to go up later today. It'll be a streetball 5 on 5 tournament (with a few subs). It'll be tournament style and most likely limited to 8 teams. Rankings won't come into effect, it'll just be something laid back and fun to mess with. I'll get into specifics, like xkorinate and stuff on the thread.

[Valanora]

Enjoy the time away, might even be good to recharge the writing batteries if you can get some quality RnR!

[Saint Kanye]

Wow, EOC at #18! That's inside the top twenty!

Also, why is there two Nueva Andalusias in the rankings? 34th and 46th.

[Drawkland]

Wow, EOC at #18! That's inside the top twenty!

Also, why is there two Nueva Andalusias in the rankings? 34th and 46th.

....that's a good question. I must've missed Nueva Andalusia when I was adding to the rankings. I'll fix that in the next few days today. Thanks for the alert!

EDIT: Ah, I see the problem. I accidentally typed "Nueva Andalusia" when I meant to type "Nueva Celta." Ranks have been fixed.

[Vangaziland]

There is lots of room for a new team to make a splash. The ranks aren't as stacked as say, the World Cup. All it takes is daily RP and a bit of luck. Vangaziland made a splash after two seasons, although everyone forgets us. We only got up to second that second year, but that's not bad from a realistic (non-snobby) perspective.

Look at all those ranks between 0.10-2.00. There is room to make the playoffs, for sure. There will be a tough team or two in every conference. But its feasible, a note to potential new competitors.

I'm glad to still be in 4th, after Abaja had a solid season. There is a fall off from the top 3, but I haven't RP'd in two seasons, so that's more than I expect. I did RP daily for several seasons before that so, it works out.

I'm stalling a bit with that basketball tourney, just because a lot is going on in NS sports. It'll be a simple 8 team bracket, streetball type of atmosphere. Each nation would probably submit a venue. Ideally, a beach or park type of court.

[International Basketball Organization]

There is lots of room for a new team to make a splash. The ranks aren't as stacked as say, the World Cup. All it takes is daily RP and a bit of luck. Vangaziland made a splash after two seasons, although everyone forgets us. We only got up to second that second year, but that's not bad from a realistic (non-snobby) perspective.

Look at all those ranks between 0.10-2.00. There is room to make the playoffs, for sure. There will be a tough team or two in every conference. But its feasible, a note to potential new competitors.

Well, that's only sort of accurate. This ranking system is fundamentally flawed (me and Valanora and some others discussed this on IRC a few days ago), as in a nation which goes out in the group stage won't even get a single point during the season, while the champion can get up to 30 based on how well they do in their playoff series. While, sure, if you RP, you can break into the ranks easily, if you have hard luck you're basically done, not to mention the massive disparity at the top. Saint Kanye has almost 10 points on second ranked Abanhfleft, and 3rd ranked Ethane has 13 points on 4th ranked Vangaziland. That's a huge gap, especially for a nation like Saint Kanye that RPs every day.

And sure, yeah, it's easy to break into the Top 20 as long as you get into the playoffs. But considering that number 8 is almost 40 points behind number 1, that's not really a fair comparison. To illustrate this, I made a graph. Bear with me on the teams selected, those are just the ones that Google Sheets selected when I generated it. I marked the labeled teams in red manually.



So obviously the one in first place is Saint Kanye. Look how high it goes! That's what one's rank is when they win multiple titles. And Saint Kanye even bombed out in the group stage of IBC 21. If they'd made any sort of playoff appearance, much less a title run, they'd be well over 50 points right now.
Next marked is Valladares. As far as ranks are concerned, Valladares should be be a quarterfinal contender. They don't even get up to 10 there. It's a small fraction of the #1's rank. And while yeah, the number one ought to have a considerable lead, it's ridiculous that only 8 spots behind them is 1/6 of their rank (and 4 spots behind them is almost 1/3).
Then you have Ko-oren, which represents the sort of lucky rank-coasters like me. This is even smaller than Valladares, and it only gets worse. Unlucky guys like Jeckland and Flardania, who could have a shot at the playoffs in a good year, are pretty much rekt if they ever get there because their rank is so low. And I don't even have to mention the many, many failing teams in the middle.

So why is this a big deal? You may say "well, the teams that RP could realistically make it into the playoffs." Which is somewhat true. In a decent 8 groups of 6 format, a newcomer or low-ranked team could possibly make it to the playoffs if they RP'd well (ignoring the times they'd be curbstomped by the Pot 1 team in their group). But as soon as they make it into the playoffs, there's no real way they could make it deep into the playoffs if all the major powers are RP'ing. Sure, Empire of Cats made it deep first try, but even Vang said that if he was RP'ing that probably would've been nipped at the bud. Plus, I'm not sure EOC even had time to eat or sleep with all the RP'ing they were doing (therefore they're not the best indicator of your average joe RPer).

That's the issue. It may be easy to break into the playoffs, but virtually impossible to make it deep if the Pot 1-level teams are RPing in any sort. Hosts could "fix" that by making RP bonuses worth more ranking points, but that's proven to really jack up results as far as randomness goes, just the way xkoranate goes. So the only real viable option is to fix the ranking system, unless we want Saint Kanye to win infinite straight titles until he dies or retires of course. And don't take this as an attack on you or anything STK, it's just the simple fact that the same person winning again and again really sucks all the fun out of a tournament for both everyone else and eventually, the person who's won all the titles (i.e. "why should I bother RPing? I'm just going to get roflstomped by Saint Kanye in the Final if I even make it that far without getting destroyed by somebody else in the Top 5.").

The World Cup of Hockey ranks used to use the same ranking formula that we use here for the IBC, and they changed it awhile ago because of how uneven it really is. Their system now is 3 points per win (because of the 3-1-0 system for game results), plus a bonus point for every round progressed in the playoffs (and then of course your run-of-the-mill multipliers for present and past editions). Now, I'm not saying we should just swipe their formula verbatim, but I say that a system similar to that should be looked into.

If people are interested, I say we should discuss what ranking system should be best, and then I'll write up a constitutional amendment for it. Maybe we could get this done before next IBC signups open and IBC 24 can be a test drive with the new ranks or whatever. Also, I still intend to create a new discussion thread for the IBC using this nation as the OP, but I'm hesitating for some reason. I'll see if I can do it this weekend, and we can do the brunt of talks for the new ranking system to kick off that new thread.

(~ Drawkland, sorry for text wall)

[Free Republics]

My suggestion would be to retain the current ranking system but count the playoffs as a single round, not 4 or 5 (depending on whether or not a Round of 24 is used) and that the changes ought to be applied retroactively. Another change I'd suggest would be to count the 3rd place series toward the rankings. I'd also like to see the previous rank component, which seems to serve the sole purpose of keeping formerly elite teams that skip an IBC or two in the top 10, dropped entirely. I'd have dropped it when I was doing the ranks but back then I was more concerned with continuity than I was with fixing the ranks and the topic simply never came up.

I'm not sure whether or not to count additional games played for teams eliminated before the finals or not (I'd have to see the rankings both ways to make a determination, which is kind of difficult when the current ranks don't contain the raw data).

[Vangaziland]

Trust me, I'm not a fan of the ranking system. Even the way I waltzed into the top 4 last year, I didn't really like and was glad EOC won this year... Because he did put a massive effort. No, I'm not saying they can win the playoffs against "The 'Ye". But they can have a good season, or advance... Basically they can compete with all those teams between 0.10-2.10.

Look at the world cup's ranks. Unless you get major luck or if the host just loves your RP (usually some unrelated story chain written in advance), you do not have a chance. After even 5 or 6 seasons, you can still be way down on the charts to the point where your competition may easily outclass you into a .500 record. Even WITH daily RP and against teams that don't RP.

That's why I'm coming up with my tournament where ranks will never come into play and it'll just be a fun streetball thing. Anyone could win and RP will really matter. I wouldn't just gut the ranking system here. Yeah there is a curve. "The 'Ye' has RP'd daily for like 5 or 6 seasons now. Even Vangaziland has its rank because I RP'd daily for 4ish seasons before the two I missed. It's cool that EOC RP'd well this season.

The past is still relevant though. And honestly, besides EOC, not too many nations RP'd daily that weren't top rated like St. Kanye. If anyone RP'd 3 or 4 times, they shouldn't worry too much about trying to win. It takes DAILY RP. Every gameday. Every single one.


The reason why I made it far in the season before last is because of daily RP for three seasons prior. So if someone RP'd well that season, they have a chance. Like EOC this year, or STK when he was new or my 2nd place finish in my 2nd ever season..

But let's not throw out cumulative RP 3x as long as one season, just to help nations that RP every few matches.

[Drawkland]

My suggestion would be to retain the current ranking system but count the playoffs as a single round, not 4 or 5 (depending on whether or not a Round of 24 is used) and that the changes ought to be applied retroactively. Another change I'd suggest would be to count the 3rd place series toward the rankings. I'd also like to see the previous rank component, which seems to serve the sole purpose of keeping formerly elite teams that skip an IBC or two in the top 10, dropped entirely. I'd have dropped it when I was doing the ranks but back then I was more concerned with continuity than I was with fixing the ranks and the topic simply never came up.

I'm not sure whether or not to count additional games played for teams eliminated before the finals or not (I'd have to see the rankings both ways to make a determination, which is kind of difficult when the current ranks don't contain the raw data).

I'm fine with the playoffs either being one value or multiple, but what's clear is that the multiplier needs to be drastically reduced. A small bonus for advancing in each round should be used imo, but not the oodles and oodles of points it currently spits out for each round. I'd be fine with adding points for the third place match. The problem with counting the playoffs as a single round, I think, would be that of two finalists, one who swept every series would be getting the same points as one who had to struggle through every series and win the tiebreaker match in each (maybe this could be rectified by having a "games played" column in addition to the games won). There's also the question of how to quantify games vs wins as far as actual ranking points go, but that's less important at this moment.

I like the "Previous Rank" part, and if we do end up changing some things that's one of the items I'd like to keep. It's sensical, and one of the unique things about the IBC ranks. Although I do think it should be nerfed slightly. Besides, even if you do have a "previous" rank, if you haven't competed in 3 straight IBCs, you're removed from the ranks no matter what your Previous Rank amount is (that's how I was instructed to do it by Electrum, anyway). That's why The Andromeda Islands, who were powerhouses when I first came in, are no longer on the sheet, despite the fact that they'd probably still be in the Top 20 riding on Previous Rank.

The raw data sheet is on the spreadsheet itself, just not the actual ranks one. I think it's just a quirk based on how specific the ranking process is, that the points from each edition have to be added manually (hence the mistakes that can be made). Another thing that would be nice to fix when we're deciding how to go forward with a change. I didn't "publish" it as part of the ranks so as to keep the shown sheet cleaner. I could post it here, or maybe add it as a tab on the rank sheet next time I publish it. I didn't think it was that important.

Trust me, I'm not a fan of the ranking system. Even the way I waltzed into the top 4 last year, I didn't really like and was glad EOC won this year... Because he did put a massive effort. No, I'm not saying they can win the playoffs against "The 'Ye". But they can have a good season, or advance... Basically they can compete with all those teams between 0.10-2.10.

Look at the world cup's ranks. Unless you get major luck or if the host just loves your RP (usually some unrelated story chain written in advance), you do not have a chance. After even 5 or 6 seasons, you can still be way down on the charts to the point where your competition may easily outclass you into a .500 record. Even WITH daily RP and against teams that don't RP.

That's why I'm coming up with my tournament where ranks will never come into play and it'll just be a fun streetball thing. Anyone could win and RP will really matter. I wouldn't just gut the ranking system here. Yeah there is a curve. "The 'Ye' has RP'd daily for like 5 or 6 seasons now. Even Vangaziland has its rank because I RP'd daily for 4ish seasons before the two I missed. It's cool that EOC RP'd well this season.

The past is still relevant though. And honestly, besides EOC, not too many nations RP'd daily that weren't top rated like St. Kanye. If anyone RP'd 3 or 4 times, they shouldn't worry too much about trying to win. It takes DAILY RP. Every gameday. Every single one.

The reason why I made it far in the season before last is because of daily RP for three seasons prior. So if someone RP'd well that season, they have a chance. Like EOC this year, or STK when he was new or my 2nd place finish in my 2nd ever season..

But let's not throw out cumulative RP 3x as long as one season, just to help nations that RP every few matches.

Honestly, posting a roster basically puts you on completely even footing with anybody from 0.0-2.0 in the ranks. That's what's ridiculous about this ranking system, anybody outside of the Top 25 is basically the same as a newcomer with a roster (and considering that half the people in that range rarely return, it's even less relevant). Anybody would be able to compete against that. They should be outclassing that rank range with a day or two of RP. The problem is, once you break past those guys, you can maybe beat some people inside the Top 25, but once you get past the Top 10, it's like trying to fight a brick wall.

The World Cup is honestly not the best fit as far as rank comparison goes. In your average class of qualifiers for the World Cup (I know that's not the actual playoffs but it's the equivalent to making it to the playoffs in a smaller tournament like this, making it out of the group stage, etc.), probably around 80% of the qualifiers posted at least 1 RP. In your average playoff class for the IBC, maybe half would've posted an RP at all through the entire tournament. Hell, there was a team in the playoffs of IBC 23 that didn't even post a roster. In the World Cup, almost everybody RPs before the tournament is over, at least the ones that make it through.

I'm kinda forgetting the point I was trying to make with that, something about RP, but basically the World Cup is an entirely different animal which ticks totally different from any other tournament on this forum. It's not really right to compare to that.

My point is that highly-ranked nations should be nearly unstoppable anyway if they RP daily. I get it. You're a juggernaut when you RP daily for multiple seasons. But if you RP daily for multiple seasons, you're going to be a juggernaut anyway, rank or no rank. Meanwhile, even if you do RP daily, if you don't have a rank, you're highly disadvantaged. I, too, am not advocating to lay waste to the high-rank bloc in the IBC. They deserve to be there. I'm just saying we ought to lop off the top a little bit.

I mean, Electrum straight up asked potential hosts in IBC 20 to come up with a way to nerf the ranks so that it wasn't so top-heavy and dominated by the number 1. And that was a year ago. I'm saying that we ought to nip the problem at the bud by toning down the massive bonuses at the top.

[Ethane]

We should not change the ranking system because it would mean I wouldn't be safe in my ranking position.

In all seriousness, I agree with Drawkland for the need to change the system, and I like most of what he has suggested. Woo.

[Empire of Cats]

Wow, I take a few days away from NS Sports and I miss all the fun.

Wow, EOC at #18! That's inside the top twenty!

Also, why is there two Nueva Andalusias in the rankings? 34th and 46th.

Yep! And happy to be here!

There is lots of room for a new team to make a splash. The ranks aren't as stacked as say, the World Cup. All it takes is daily RP and a bit of luck. Vangaziland made a splash after two seasons, although everyone forgets us. We only got up to second that second year, but that's not bad from a realistic (non-snobby) perspective.

Look at all those ranks between 0.10-2.00. There is room to make the playoffs, for sure. There will be a tough team or two in every conference. But its feasible, a note to potential new competitors.

Well, that's only sort of accurate. This ranking system is fundamentally flawed (me and Valanora and some others discussed this on IRC a few days ago), as in a nation which goes out in the group stage won't even get a single point during the season, while the champion can get up to 30 based on how well they do in their playoff series. While, sure, if you RP, you can break into the ranks easily, if you have hard luck you're basically done, not to mention the massive disparity at the top. Saint Kanye has almost 10 points on second ranked Abanhfleft, and 3rd ranked Ethane has 13 points on 4th ranked Vangaziland. That's a huge gap, especially for a nation like Saint Kanye that RPs every day.

And sure, yeah, it's easy to break into the Top 20 as long as you get into the playoffs. But considering that number 8 is almost 40 points behind number 1, that's not really a fair comparison. To illustrate this, I made a graph. Bear with me on the teams selected, those are just the ones that Google Sheets selected when I generated it. I marked the labeled teams in red manually.



So obviously the one in first place is Saint Kanye. Look how high it goes! That's what one's rank is when they win multiple titles. And Saint Kanye even bombed out in the group stage of IBC 21. If they'd made any sort of playoff appearance, much less a title run, they'd be well over 50 points right now.
Next marked is Valladares. As far as ranks are concerned, Valladares should be be a quarterfinal contender. They don't even get up to 10 there. It's a small fraction of the #1's rank. And while yeah, the number one ought to have a considerable lead, it's ridiculous that only 8 spots behind them is 1/6 of their rank (and 4 spots behind them is almost 1/3).
Then you have Ko-oren, which represents the sort of lucky rank-coasters like me. This is even smaller than Valladares, and it only gets worse. Unlucky guys like Jeckland and Flardania, who could have a shot at the playoffs in a good year, are pretty much rekt if they ever get there because their rank is so low. And I don't even have to mention the many, many failing teams in the middle.

So why is this a big deal? You may say "well, the teams that RP could realistically make it into the playoffs." Which is somewhat true. In a decent 8 groups of 6 format, a newcomer or low-ranked team could possibly make it to the playoffs if they RP'd well (ignoring the times they'd be curbstomped by the Pot 1 team in their group). But as soon as they make it into the playoffs, there's no real way they could make it deep into the playoffs if all the major powers are RP'ing. Sure, Empire of Cats made it deep first try, but even Vang said that if he was RP'ing that probably would've been nipped at the bud. Plus, I'm not sure EOC even had time to eat or sleep with all the RP'ing they were doing (therefore they're not the best indicator of your average joe RPer).

That's the issue. It may be easy to break into the playoffs, but virtually impossible to make it deep if the Pot 1-level teams are RPing in any sort. Hosts could "fix" that by making RP bonuses worth more ranking points, but that's proven to really jack up results as far as randomness goes, just the way xkoranate goes. So the only real viable option is to fix the ranking system, unless we want Saint Kanye to win infinite straight titles until he dies or retires of course. And don't take this as an attack on you or anything STK, it's just the simple fact that the same person winning again and again really sucks all the fun out of a tournament for both everyone else and eventually, the person who's won all the titles (i.e. "why should I bother RPing? I'm just going to get roflstomped by Saint Kanye in the Final if I even make it that far without getting destroyed by somebody else in the Top 5.").

The World Cup of Hockey ranks used to use the same ranking formula that we use here for the IBC, and they changed it awhile ago because of how uneven it really is. Their system now is 3 points per win (because of the 3-1-0 system for game results), plus a bonus point for every round progressed in the playoffs (and then of course your run-of-the-mill multipliers for present and past editions). Now, I'm not saying we should just swipe their formula verbatim, but I say that a system similar to that should be looked into.

If people are interested, I say we should discuss what ranking system should be best, and then I'll write up a constitutional amendment for it. Maybe we could get this done before next IBC signups open and IBC 24 can be a test drive with the new ranks or whatever. Also, I still intend to create a new discussion thread for the IBC using this nation as the OP, but I'm hesitating for some reason. I'll see if I can do it this weekend, and we can do the brunt of talks for the new ranking system to kick off that new thread.

(~ Drawkland, sorry for text wall)

First off, nice graph! Second, you don't know how close to the truth your statement is. Turns out that I can make some pretty positive use of thirty minutes before I go to school!

Trust me, I'm not a fan of the ranking system. Even the way I waltzed into the top 4 last year, I didn't really like and was glad EOC won this year... Because he did put a massive effort. No, I'm not saying they can win the playoffs against "The 'Ye". But they can have a good season, or advance... Basically they can compete with all those teams between 0.10-2.10.

Look at the world cup's ranks. Unless you get major luck or if the host just loves your RP (usually some unrelated story chain written in advance), you do not have a chance. After even 5 or 6 seasons, you can still be way down on the charts to the point where your competition may easily outclass you into a .500 record. Even WITH daily RP and against teams that don't RP.

That's why I'm coming up with my tournament where ranks will never come into play and it'll just be a fun streetball thing. Anyone could win and RP will really matter. I wouldn't just gut the ranking system here. Yeah there is a curve. "The 'Ye' has RP'd daily for like 5 or 6 seasons now. Even Vangaziland has its rank because I RP'd daily for 4ish seasons before the two I missed. It's cool that EOC RP'd well this season.

The past is still relevant though. And honestly, besides EOC, not too many nations RP'd daily that weren't top rated like St. Kanye. If anyone RP'd 3 or 4 times, they shouldn't worry too much about trying to win. It takes DAILY RP. Every gameday. Every single one.


The reason why I made it far in the season before last is because of daily RP for three seasons prior. So if someone RP'd well that season, they have a chance. Like EOC this year, or STK when he was new or my 2nd place finish in my 2nd ever season..

But let's not throw out cumulative RP 3x as long as one season, just to help nations that RP every few matches.

Cheers to the Royals. Y'all were fun to play, and I owe you one for really motivating me to go to extra lengths to RP.

But I agree with you and Drawkland.

-wanted to make it short

Hello NS members! I just wanted to inform you all that I have been going through some busy and stressful times, and will unfortunately be unable to have any free time on NS. It could be like this for months, so it would be a while before you all see me again.

Will I retire from NS permanently?
-Not likely, I will make a few stop by's every now and then.

Will I still participate in NS Sports ?
-Highly unlikely. I'll have almost no time to post an RP or roster anymore.

When these problems are sorted out, you all will see me pop up more often

You were great host. I hope you get that R&R you were after and I wish you all the best.

[Vangaziland]

In your average playoff class for the IBC, maybe half would've posted an RP at all through the entire tournament. Hell, there was a team in the playoffs of IBC 23 that didn't even post a roster. In the World Cup, almost everybody RPs before the tournament is over, at least the ones that make it through.

That is my point right there. If all people do is post a roster, they shouldn't expect to win. That is why I said post every day. EOC did it and he got to the top 18. Next season, he will have a good chance to advance. After 3 seasons, he will have a chance at the top and might even win it during those 3 years.

In the WC, everyone can RP daily and still not advance, because the ranks are much higher and more spread out. You won't have that many teams under 2 points. It's not easy and it almost doesn't pay to bring a new team in... But there is the chance for luck.

In the IBC, it takes a little elbow grease. Every year there is a new standout. I'm all for improving the system. I'm just saying it's not as unfair as some of these statements are making it seem.

Those who are on equal footing with people who post a roster are that way because they don't RP to their full potential. Every match. Even after you hit a 2 game losing streak. Even after you get bored or busy. Every matchday. If not, you'll end up mid pack with the others who didn't RP fully. And then those who maybe RP'd two seasons ago will have a leg up if they also don't build a max RP bonus. Is that unfair?

So yes, tweak it and such. I'm just saying there is a chance to succeed even the way it is. And yes, sometimes you will lose in the first round or not make the playoffs.

That even happened to STK once. He persisted. I've had early exits. It's not that overblown. Now if you say you want to stop it from becoming the WC that's a good point. There really isn't the interest or effort here for people to RP that consistently and a better chance of early success though. So I guess in that regard it is different, like you said.. Meaning the ranks won't become that overblown, which brings me back to my point.

Just RP every matchday and commit to do it for more than one season and not on the conditions of success or failure.

[Saint Kanye]

I agree with everything in Van's post above.

No offense at all taken for those who say I'm too good, but let me tell you that that's the result of honest hard work, not a wish from a genie, or hax. Fleft is good at writing. In fact, he's better than me at telling stories. So the ranks that we (among others) hold are deserved, but still, it shouldn't be that others don't have a chance in hell.

I would have liked to be in the Saintland three-peat days, because back then almost everyone RPed. That gave more teams a chance.

Although I suggest we remove CTE nations in the rankings. They just take up space. They can always start their team over, like their nation.

Van: I'm interested in your streetball contest, and I'll submit a roster and venue.

[Vangaziland]

Sounds good, STK. It wouldn't be a true ball tourney without your nation around. It'll be a cool laid back event. It's that time of year really. Playoffs and nice weather? It shouldn't be hard to find 6 more teams. But the sport world is a little busy. I'll keep an eye out.

So I guess if we have four games in the first bracket, we need two more venues. Let me just start a discussion thread and see what's up.

[Drawkland]

In your average playoff class for the IBC, maybe half would've posted an RP at all through the entire tournament. Hell, there was a team in the playoffs of IBC 23 that didn't even post a roster. In the World Cup, almost everybody RPs before the tournament is over, at least the ones that make it through.

That is my point right there. If all people do is post a roster, they shouldn't expect to win. That is why I said post every day. EOC did it and he got to the top 18. Next season, he will have a good chance to advance. After 3 seasons, he will have a chance at the top and might even win it during those 3 years.

In the WC, everyone can RP daily and still not advance, because the ranks are much higher and more spread out. You won't have that many teams under 2 points. It's not easy and it almost doesn't pay to bring a new team in... But there is the chance for luck.

In the IBC, it takes a little elbow grease. Every year there is a new standout. I'm all for improving the system. I'm just saying it's not as unfair as some of these statements are making it seem.

Those who are on equal footing with people who post a roster are that way because they don't RP to their full potential. Every match. Even after you hit a 2 game losing streak. Even after you get bored or busy. Every matchday. If not, you'll end up mid pack with the others who didn't RP fully. And then those who maybe RP'd two seasons ago will have a leg up if they also don't build a max RP bonus. Is that unfair?

So yes, tweak it and such. I'm just saying there is a chance to succeed even the way it is. And yes, sometimes you will lose in the first round or not make the playoffs.

That even happened to STK once. He persisted. I've had early exits. It's not that overblown. Now if you say you want to stop it from becoming the WC that's a good point. There really isn't the interest or effort here for people to RP that consistently and a better chance of early success though. So I guess in that regard it is different, like you said.. Meaning the ranks won't become that overblown, which brings me back to my point.

Just RP every matchday and commit to do it for more than one season and not on the conditions of success or failure.

I'm not saying that you should be a massive contender if you submit only a roster. You said that the ranks are alright because new nations can easily compete with those in the <2.0 range. That's not significant in any way, they'd be competitive with those teams in any case. And like I said, I'm not trying to topple the top, but I'm trying to make it a little more competitive for the younger nations, or the ones who just haven't had luck earlier.

And if anything, it seems at this point that you're almost advocating for the WC. It's the bread and butter of NS Sports that the key to success is the three R's: RP, Rank, and Randomness. The World Cup does have opportunity for randomness. Hence why I qualified on my first attempt. In the IBC, RP obviously plays a big part, but the Rank component basically sweeps aside any opportunity for randomness.

And every year obviously brings new challenges and matchups, that's how draws work. But I think it's no coincidence that 3/4 semifinalists were the same from last edition (and 2/2 finalists), and that all 3 of those guys were the Top 3 in the Post-IBC 22 ranks (and are the Top 3 in the Post-IBC 23 ranks, for obvious reasons).

It's also worth noting that when Saint Kanye had that bad group stage exit, he had about a third of the ranking points he currently has (I checked the old sheets and calculated manually). He'd be slightly above Vangaziland in the current ranks. And sure, yeah, he got shut out despite a high rank, but that was once. Vangaziland lost out 2 rounds before he was supposed to in this IBC. It happens. He wasn't the juggernaut he was today, therefore it's not an accurate comparison.

And yeah, nations can build up ranks after multiple seasons, yes. But it's the simple truth that nobody can build up a rank comparable to Saint Kanye's without winning several championships. And you can't win several championships when Saint Kanye is in the way. Hell, if you're in his side of the playoff draw, you can't even make it to the final game at all. Look at Ethane, for example. Even if he'd RP'd, it's highly unlikely that he could've made it to the Final. Abanhfleft, even with his high rank and RPing, barely pulled a single win on the Surge.

Sure, if you have a decent rank after some seasons and do daily quality RP, and are lucky in the group and playoff draw, you can make it to the final. And you might stand a chance against Saint Kanye. You might be able to get a win. And then Saint Kanye will get twice the ranking points you got from the final series and he'll be even further out of reach. A modification of the ranks will primarily help the teams who do put in the effort, and do put in the work, and do RP daily, and do their best. That's why I'm suggesting this.

I agree with everything in Van's post above.

No offense at all taken for those who say I'm too good, but let me tell you that that's the result of honest hard work, not a wish from a genie, or hax. Fleft is good at writing. In fact, he's better than me at telling stories. So the ranks that we (among others) hold are deserved, but still, it shouldn't be that others don't have a chance in hell.

I would have liked to be in the Saintland three-peat days, because back then almost everyone RPed. That gave more teams a chance.

I'm not trying to attack your effort levels or your success or anything. If anything, I'm immensely impressed with what you've pulled off. It's just that when you have one team winning all the time, it pretty much pisses in everyone else's cheerios. Sure, a team might build up rank and RP a lot to make it to the final .... but so will you. It's not in the interest of the community to have one or two juggernauts that mow down anybody else without much chance for said opponent. Hell, you won every game in IBC 23 except for the one final series game that Abanhfleft pulled off (Actually, you had a winning streak stretching from the middle of the IBC 22 group stage all the way to said IBC 23 final game, but that's not a super accurate indicator since IBC 22 was single elimination).

And plus, considering your RP levels, you could probably have your rank cut in half and you'd still be a perennial championship contender.

Although I suggest we remove CTE nations in the rankings. They just take up space. They can always start their team over, like their nation.

That's a great idea in theory but I'm not keen to search through 84 teams to remove a couple CTE's. They'll get purged from the list eventually from not competing for several editions.

[Vangaziland]

I am doing the opposite of advocating the WC. I outright said it's almost not worth submitting a new team. Because there, it will take years to get 9 points and there might be 10 teams with 9 points and 40 teams well over 9 points.

You keep reinforcing my point. If that many teams are under 2 points then yes, like you said, you CAN be competitive with them. So what is the problem? Do it for 3 seasons, and you'll be up with the top. Especially if a top nation doesn't RP and falls off. The WC is MUCH harder and more stagnant. Worse, not better.

It seems like a way for people who RP a few times a season to have a chance to jump past people who have RP'd daily for 3 seasons. RPing for 3 seasons and then missing a season is less of a travesty than RPing 4 or 5 times and then suddenly being on even ground.

It's not needed. But if people want to go that route, just to help those kinds of teams out, feel free. Just don't pretend there isn't a chance. You back up my post with every statement, Drawkland.

I have RP'd for some of those seasons and barely advanced and one season I didn't RP and did advance. That is called luck. Yes the rank helped, but on those seasons I RP'd every single game and failed to advance, nobody held my hand. But I stuck with it and had good seasons. So now, previous RP shouldn't count (or should be nerfed, dramatically probably)? And I am just one person. Look at STK, look at Abanfleft and Abaja. Consistent RPers.. It is almost an insult for people to imply the teams here have coasted. Not quite, but almost.

Let's just try to have more RPing and see what happens. And like I said, even without immediate success. And of course if it goes to vote, people will select it. Because it helps their teams. Just RP. It's really not that unfair here. That season I did well because I RP'd for 3+ seasons daily before it. So people who posted one roster and didn't build a high enough RP bonus should suddenly have higher standing just because I got busy with the political RL mess around that time? 5 RPs versus probably 5 seasons of daily RP? Just try, people. That goes for any sport. Except maybe the WC because it IS too stacked.

And the way EOC beat the Royals shows my point exactly. Because he DID RP daily and he beat my team. If he RP'd only after wins or like 3 games and a roster, he would have lost probably. But he put the effort in over the whole season and with well-written RPs. So, that's what it takes.

Also, if a change is made, factor it in over three seasons, as in starting with the new season and leaving the previous numbers right where they are. Just changing the ranking numbers would be more unfair than anything in place now.

My team could be in the top 3, but its not. Because I didn't RP as much as the top 3 recently. And okay, I got lucky 2 seasons ago. If not I might not even be in the top 5 or 6. And I would be fine with that.

[Valanora]

I think the fact that the gap between 3rd and 4th is bigger than the gap between 4th and unranked is a sign of a problem. Not even the WCoH where there has only been two winners over the past four editions has this kind of stratification...

[Vangaziland]

If I RP'd more this season, I would have probably went farther by beating EOC. Something that is NOT guaranteed. Then maybe I would have hit the top 4 in the tourney and maybe gotten a ton of points. If so, I might have been in the top 2 in rankings now. But the top 3 RP'd enough to build up their RP bonus. They advanced, they built their rank even higher and that is fair. I didn't, I lost. I have 18 points.

So even with me having that difference, I'll say how that is fair.

RP bonus + Rank RP(RP bonus for 3 seasons) = factors influencing rank

If I were to say something about STK's rank, that wouldn't be fair of me. Because he didn't miss the last two seasons. I did. And my rank evened out. It's still high. That 15 points from the season is because I had rankings for 3 seasons where I RP'd every season. Some of the same people who may dislike that, chose not to RP as hard during those 3 seasons. And of those 3, I had one good season and two okay ones. But it averaged out to help me in the coasting edition. I didn't get the rank from coasting for 3 seasons. And that is the implication that insults me.

If one builds up close to the max RP bonus, they will have a leg up. If they have done that for 3 seasons, the leg goes up higher. 3 is more than 1. Now if they RP like 5 times and have a mediocre RP bonus and then can't beat a ranked team, literally, the answer is to RP more. Get the max RP bonus. If STK or someone else is too high, well, they've RP'd more in the past three years.

And the WC has wayyyy more stratification. I dare a new writer to apply to the WC and RP for three seasons. You will need lots of luck and superb RP to make it in the top 30 (still not impossible). And that 30 will be far from equal footing.

Like I said, if you want to put it to a vote that the majority will accept because it will help them, do it. But it's not really more fair or necessary. So do as you will. But don't rip away the rank bonus straight away which people have worked on. Like for what now, 2 years for some of us? Phase it in. Changing the ranking system starting with the next tourney will be fair enough if previous ranks earned legitimately are not ripped away.

How about increasing the RP bonus instead? That works. Caution, one will have to write for that though.

[Frenline Delpha]

I'll be honest, Van. The agressive tone you seem to be taking in your posts isn't helping your case. You can still not like the proposed idea, but the tone of your writing right now comes off as rather dismissive of others. Especially that last part. I mean, you do you, but sometimes being calmer gets more people on your side.

[Vangaziland]

The thing is, I don't kiss up to people. I don't act nice to manipulate people into following me. This is how I am in real life as well. Thank the Army. Thank Iraq. But my point is valid, whether people like me or hate me. If people dislike my tone, well, sorry. But I am serious. And I do feel insulted that people are insinuating the top teams have coasted. Especially when I can see nations and remember how maybe they didn't post as often. So, I don't know what to say.

But I am not saying anything unreasonable. Nothing should be inflammatory. It is the truth. There is the big secret; RPing enough to get the max bonus or as close as the host's grading allows you to helps.

The last part is true. Yes, one will have to write harder to get that RP bonus. But it will be more fair. And people would rather just "nerf" the few people who put more in over a longer time.

Read STK's last few seasons in the IBC and tell me he deserves to be nerfed. Same with Abahnfleft. Same with Abaja. Same with some others. I missed two, but check my 3 seasons before my good one. It's really not something people should take personal. I am simply speaking in a direct manner. There is no sugar within me to coat things.

If nobody took a stand to make it completely clear, it would get whitewashed by popular opinion. But popular opinion is not always true. It is what is popular.

[Frenline Delpha]

And I do feel insulted that people are insinuating the top teams have coasted. .

Perhaps I missed that particular post, but I haven't seen a single person imply this yet.

[Electrum]

As a former IBO president (just poking my head in -- I don't intend to return in any capacity), I wholeheartedly support the reforms that Free Republics proposed: a two-tier points system (group stage and finals) and a removal of the previous rank component. The current system was, and still is quite unfair on teams that are 9th and below who have an extremely massive hurdle against the top few teams (even if they constantly roleplay), there is no other sport like this.

Also, there are distortions in the rankings based on how a tournament is run: if a tournament decided to go for one-off games instead of series in the finals, then the 'bonus' going into the finals is even more magnified. I believe FFR's reforms are sensible and would go a long way in reducing the magnified effect (e.g. see the disparity in points earned by St Kanye when they won two tournaments: 19 points where series were used in IBC23 and 29 points where 'knock-out' games were used)

[Drawkland]

Hold on - I'm not at a computer right now and likely won't be for a few hours, but let me just say that under no circumstances am I proposing a complete reset of the ranks. That was never my intention. If and when the system is changed, I will retroactively apply the results of the past 3 IBC's.

I'll respond to the points tonight. In fact, after a conversation with Audioslavia, I'll finally open the new Discussion Thread with the IBO nation as the OP, for everyone's convenience. This thread will be locked and we'll continue the discussion there.

EDIT: I'll respond to the points in few minutes, I actually have some time to.