The World Bowl Discussion Thread (OOC)

[New West Guiana]

So guys, what is the legality of zombies playing football? I fear many of us once the wb starts may have no living left to play.

I for one support an amendment showing support for zombie players, and special rules to help accommodate for that fact that they are kind of sorta dead.

(Happy April Fools day by the way.)

Thinking of all these blasted zombies, I fear that my puppet Zomni brought this upon us, after all I do rp it as a nation infested with them. I blame the Zomnis!

* BOI MD3, either Schmiegelland very unlucky or very lucky two days of OT, yesterday a loss, today a win.

[Equestrian States]

Hoo boy, two pretty major issues that need to be addressed pronto.

Issue #1: Zeedom in the Baptism of Iron
During my calculation of the rankings, I found that one participant (Zeedom) in the current BoI is entered illegally as they currently have a ranking (albeit a very low one) from their participation in World Bowl 17.

Issue #2: The Official Rankings Formula
When calculating the rankings, I found a rather glaring flaw in it (which may be due to my misinterpreting the formula somehow) that I believe makes it a poor one to use.

- Most recent World Bowl (WB19) is counted 100%; previous World Bowl (WB18) is counted 50%; World Bowl before that (WB17) is counted 25%
- Champions receive 15 points
- Playoff stage teams receive (Group Stage Win %) * 15 points
- Non-playoff teams receive (Group Stage Win %) * 10 points

The Baptism of Iron points are calculated using the same formula, but are worth 10% as much as the points for the World Bowl they preceded. In my current computation using this formula, the BoI prior to WB19 is the only one included as there was no BoI for WB18, and I removed the BoI prior to WB17 for my convenience when calculating final ranks after the current (pre-WB20) BoI concludes. However, the maximum bonus a team could receive from that BoI would be worth 0.375 points after final calculation. A notable change that would be brought about if I did include the pre-WB17 BoI points is that Yesopalitha would gain sole possession of the #3 rank (moving out of a tie with Osarius) due to their participation in that tournament.

Also, as a relevant note from the person doing calculations: I'd look favorably on never using M7's second group stage playoff format again without seriously adjusting the ranking formula to take it into account. It simply doesn't work with the current formula, so I counted any team advancing from the first group stage as qualifying for the playoffs, and thus gave them the points for that (which is far from ideal, IMO).

With the above rankings system, any team finishing the group stage with a perfect record will automatically receive the same number of points as the World Bowl champion, even if said team is eliminated in the first round of the playoffs (most likely to be a Round of 16). You can extend it to any number of situation, but it all comes down to the current state where the group stage matters disproportionately more than the playoffs.

There are a few different solutions to the problem that I've come up with. First, I could simply change my interpretation to mean the team's overall win percentage (including the playoffs), which would lower the points earned by one-and-done teams and slightly raise those of teams that advance beyond the first round. However, doing that could be disastrous if I take the second group stage games from WB19 into account (it would seriously lower several teams' rank points from that WB to be possibly below the higher-end non-playoff-qualifiers). Second, I could come up with a different rankings system, which could then be formulated to avoid the problem (I've posted a draft formula of mine in the spoiler below). A new formula would also allow us to better deal with M7's weird second group stage playoffs system in WB19. Finally, I could simply drop the issue if the rest of the community wants to keep the current formula (and thus the ranks I've already calculated) the way it is.

My proposed formula is fairly similar to the current one, keeping the base (using the group stage win %) but also lessening the potential unbalance that could be caused by a 10-0 team losing in the first round. I would assign rank points based on the following:

Champion: [(Group Stage Win %) * 10] + 8 pts. (Max: 18 pts.; a three-peat would give the #1 a max rank value of 31.5 pts.)
Runner-Up: [(Group Stage Win %) * 10] + 6 pts.
Semifinals: [(Group Stage Win %) * 10] + 4 pts.
Quarterfinals: [(Group Stage Win %) * 10] + 2 pts.
Other Playoff Rounds¹: [(Group Stage Win %) * 10] + 1 pts.
Non-Playoffs: (Group Stage Win %) * 10 pts.
Note 1: My attempt to account for any non-traditional playoff formats like in WB19

Additionally, I would propose calculating the BoI in roughly the same way as the current formula, but would eliminate the bonus after two WBs (the same way that the KPB currently eliminates the BoF bonus).

Feel free to comment, critique, or whatever else you want to with that proposal. I'm by no means set on using the exact formula posted above.

If anything's unclear, it's probably because I'm writing this while fighting off sleep. <- Just picture that smiley with droopy and slightly bloodshot eyes

[Michael VII]

M7's weird second group stage playoffs system in WB19.

I'm quite good at stirring controversy around here aren't I?

Haha, that's what you get for making me be creative!

[Osarius]

With the above rankings system, any team finishing the group stage with a perfect record will automatically receive the same number of points as the World Bowl champion, even if said team is eliminated in the first round of the playoffs (most likely to be a Round of 16). You can extend it to any number of situation, but it all comes down to the current state where the group stage matters disproportionately more than the playoffs.

Erm... no they won't. In fact, I'm quite sure the formula TBI came up with was for that very reason.
The WB champion gets 15 points. It is impossible, under the current system, for any other team to get 15 points. No other team reaching the playoff stage can also finish with a 100% winning percentage.

Also, I was under the impression that the winning percentage wasn't the ACTUAL winning percentage, but rather (wins/max games played)

[Equestrian States]

Erm... no they won't. In fact, I'm quite sure the formula TBI came up with was for that very reason.
The WB champion gets 15 points. It is impossible, under the current system, for any other team to get 15 points. No other team reaching the playoff stage can also finish with a 100% winning percentage.

Also, I was under the impression that the winning percentage wasn't the ACTUAL winning percentage, but rather (wins/max games played)

So it was just a slight misinterpretation then. What I was going off of wasn't exactly clear about that.

Although that still leaves the issue of the WB19 second group stage. Do I count all those games in the final total (significantly lowering non-playoff teams' points), or something else?

[Osarius]

So it was just a slight misinterpretation then. What I was going off of wasn't exactly clear about that.

Well, that link specifies that you use ACTUAL winning percentage, so the second group stage should be calculated as normal. It won't affect anyone else. But it would still be impossible for anyone other than the eventual champions to get 15 points because if a team goes perfect in the group stage and loses their first game in the playoffs, they have a winning percentage below 1.000, meaning that 15 will become smaller no matter what.



Anyway, I sort of see your point about the group stage thing, but I don't think it matters much.

Most likely, to reach the playoffs, you'll need to have a win percentage of 0.700 or above in the group stage for a typical World Bowl competition. For argument's sake, let's say group stages are 10 games on average. If you progress on a 7-3 record to a 16 team playoff stage, and lost in the final, you'd have a ranking point total of 15 * ~0.77. If you went perfect in the group stage and lost immediately in the playoffs, you'd have 15 * ~0.91 for a difference of 15 * ~0.14, which is 2.1. I don't think that's a big deal, considering you can usually make up that gap in a single matchday.

[New West Guiana]

Well we're officially in the final stretch of the BoI, only one game left in group stage.

[Qazox]

Regarding the TBI way of ranking, when I last did them, I used (win percentage*15) for every team except the champion who got 15.000 points. So if a team was 10-0 in a 10 game group stage and lost in the finals of 16 team playoff they'd have 13.928 points (13/14)*15. The most a team could get winning 3 straight titles would be: 26.25 not including any potential BoI points added on.

Re: Zeedom, they should get no BoI points and every team in their group has their results vs. Zeedom not counted to their record while figuring out their rank. (I.e. a team finished 4-2 with both losses to Zeedom would be considered 4-0..)

[New West Guiana]

And thank you for ES for alerting me about Zeedom, i've edited the BoI so they'll be disqualified from advancing.

[Kinzar]

Group 5                        Pld   W  L   PF  PA  PD  Pts 
1 Saintland                        6   5  1  108  67 +41   15
2 Nothton                          6   5  1  147 109 +38   15  [CTE'd]
3 Levivania                        6   1  5   84 116 −32    3
4 Rodard                           6   1  5  103 150 −47    3 [CTE'd]

Why are we advancing a 1-5 team into the playoffs at the expense of others?
I'm kept out of the playoffs because a team could only beat one other team that also went 1-5 but benefits because they had a nation CtE in their group? That's the way the World Bowl works?

[Karditan]

Group 5                        Pld   W  L   PF  PA  PD  Pts 
1 Saintland                        6   5  1  108  67 +41   15
2 Nothton                          6   5  1  147 109 +38   15  [CTE'd]
3 Levivania                        6   1  5   84 116 −32    3
4 Rodard                           6   1  5  103 150 −47    3 [CTE'd]

Why are we advancing a 1-5 team into the playoffs at the expense of others?
I'm kept out of the playoffs because a team could only beat one other team that also went 1-5 but benefits because they had a nation CtE in their group? That's the way the World Bowl works?

I'm a little unsure as to what you're asking (the wording is a little wonky), but probably yes. Doesn't it make sense to award the playoff spot to a nation that at least cared enough to keep their nation from ceasing during the tourney? And yes, in most NSSport competitions you can finish with a good record but just out of a playoff spot in your group while lesser performing teams qualify in other groups. If you want an example, look at the final standings of WBXXV--I finished 7-3 but was third in my group, making me the best-performing team to not qualify for the playoffs, while there were 5-5 teams that advanced due to weaker overall groups. It's just how things work... random numbers and all that.

[Kinzar]

No. It makes no sensse at all. I understand randomness. This isn't about randomness. Its about allowing. A 1-5 team in the playoffs just because they are in the same group. If these were. 8 or 10 team groups it'd be a ok move. But with 4 team groups the decision is poor. Either give it to the next best team in qualifying or give the top seed a first round bye. Allowing a 1-5 team in like this is in my opinion a complete joke.

[Kinzar]

A weak group is a group with 2 5-1's and 2 1-5's. A strong group is a group with 4 3-3's because there was parity.

[Michael VII]

No. It makes no sensse at all. I understand randomness. This isn't about randomness. Its about allowing. A 1-5 team in the playoffs just because they are in the same group. If these were. 8 or 10 team groups it'd be a ok move. But with 4 team groups the decision is poor. Either give it to the next best team in qualifying or give the top seed a first round bye. Allowing a 1-5 team in like this is in my opinion a complete joke.

Um, no. Sorry but this is just how things work in NS Sports. Same thing goes for the World Cup.

[Vettrera]

No. It makes no sensse at all. I understand randomness. This isn't about randomness. Its about allowing. A 1-5 team in the playoffs just because they are in the same group. If these were. 8 or 10 team groups it'd be a ok move. But with 4 team groups the decision is poor. Either give it to the next best team in qualifying or give the top seed a first round bye. Allowing a 1-5 team in like this is in my opinion a complete joke.

Technically the 1-5 team is the "next best team"

Someone who went "3-3" in their group but didn't make it, could have just been placed in an easier group.
You can't say that one team is better than another unless they've played similar teams.

That's like saying that a team that goes 5-1 against the worst baseball team in the world, is better than a team that goes 1-5 against the best team in the world....there's no way of knowing. So it's just better to do things by group.

[Cassadaigua]

No. It makes no sensse at all. I understand randomness. This isn't about randomness. Its about allowing. A 1-5 team in the playoffs just because they are in the same group. If these were. 8 or 10 team groups it'd be a ok move. But with 4 team groups the decision is poor. Either give it to the next best team in qualifying or give the top seed a first round bye. Allowing a 1-5 team in like this is in my opinion a complete joke.

Um, no. Sorry but this is just how things work in NS Sports. Same thing goes for the World Cup.

Actually, Michael VII, there are several examples in NS Sports where what Kinzar says should happen, has happened. That the next best team of a group gets the spot is not "just how things work". It's gone both ways, perhaps more recently it has slanted toward the way NWG has done it here, but if we go back in time more, you will see other examples where it was the next best team with the competition, as a whole.

What this is, Kinzar, is host discretion. You will hear that term often used in NS Sports. New West Guiana has been entrusted to host the tournament the way he sees fit and he has chosen to do it this way. Another host may choose to do what you wish would have been done (and for the record, you can count me as one of them). But this is all a decision one makes when they host a competition, a lot goes into hosting one of these things. You have shown yourself to be a good promising RPer, and if you keep it up, you'll eventually have votes to where you can make voting decisions based on what you have seen in the past.

[The Fanboyists]

Seconding/agreeing with Cass. The fact is, Kinzar, that in this case, that's the way the cookie crumbles. Sometimes things aren't going to slide your way. Ultimately, in the context of NS Sports, the precedent is firmly on the side of host discretion; a host chooses how to run a tournament, provides such information, and it's voted on. Once a host is chosen, how they run the tournament is at their discretion, although it's poor form to alter something heavily from the original host bid without proper warning and discussion, first.

On the other hand, Kinzar, you can always take heart from the fact that BoI champs don't (with a few exceptions) have great track-records in the World Bowl proper. And teams that have stunk it up in the BoI have done just fine in the World Bowl proper. Basically, the BoI is not of huge importance in the scheme of how you'll do overall. Don't worry about it too much; the World Bowl will be a whole new competition. So commiserations, but you'll live.

[The Fanboyists]

On the other hand, Karditan, can we expect to see an "everything" thread or such before the end of the BoI? It's not a big deal, I just wanted to know if we should start keeping our eyes peeled for it, yet.

Also, NWG, Kinzar's complaint aside, good job running a smooth BoI thus-far!

[New West Guiana]

Allowing a 1-5 team in like this is in my opinion a complete joke.

That 1-5 team only made it because the other top team CTE'd. It makes zero sense to let a CTE nation into the next round, if they don't exists, they don't exists.
Does it mean they'd win, there is a very small likely hood of that as The Serbian Empire has rped frequently and i've through out the BoI judged and weighted rps heavily. Though as I had explained in my bid the top two teams of each group advanced, plus for this format the next two wildcards. Levivania only made it simply because s/he was part of the top two of the group.
You lost out to Ironite, simply because your point difference was greater than Irons -6 > -13.

[Kinzar]

Allowing a 1-5 team in like this is in my opinion a complete joke.

That 1-5 team only made it because the other top team CTE'd. It makes zero sense to let a CTE nation into the next round, if they don't exists, they don't exists.
Does it mean they'd win, there is a very small likely hood of that as The Serbian Empire has rped frequently and i've through out the BoI judged and weighted rps heavily. Though as I had explained in my bid the top two teams of each group advanced, plus for this format the next two wildcards. Levivania only made it simply because s/he was part of the top two of the group.
You lost out to Ironite, simply because your point difference was greater than Irons -6 > -13.

I was about to let this die, take the explanations, and live with it, but you just made my point, my friend.

You said that the top two in each group plus the next two wild cards advance. Levivania did not finish 2nd, they finished 3rd. Therefore by their ceasing to exist, the automatic second place position from group 5 was forfeited. Therefore then with what you have said right here, it goes to the wild cards, which means we are in.

[Cassadaigua]

As hosts, things like this happen. We think we have a solution for everything and these loopholes come up. In World Baseball Classic 7 and 11, some very large loopholes came up, and in both cases a playoff game was added. If the rules stipulated that the top two teams per group qualified, and then the next best two, then Kinzar is correct in my opinion. Now if this were like the World Cup where it's top 2 teams per group and nothing else, then it's fair to say if a nation CTE's in a group, the next team in that group gets the spot. But that is not the format for the current competition. This competition allows for 2nd place teams, and then wildcards, wildcards which can come from any group. A second place spot was forfeited, so a third wild card spot was created. That spot should be Kinzar's based on that wording, in my opinion. However, it could also be seen as NWG sees it. This is why I bring up World Baseball Classic 7 and 11. That's your precedent for what is happening here. Let's give them a playoff game. Kinzar vs Levivania and let Margaret decide.

[Karditan]

On the other hand, Karditan, can we expect to see an "everything" thread or such before the end of the BoI? It's not a big deal, I just wanted to know if we should start keeping our eyes peeled for it, yet.

It should be up later today; I was planning to get it up when the BoI hit the playoffs.

[Cassadaigua]

Everyone hold up for a second!! Because there is another error here!!

I think we were too busy considering Kinzar's argument, that we totally did not notice Firiminaz sitting there in Group 3. Firminiaz also has a 3-3 record and a point differential of -11. They were not given a wild card. Euskirribakondara, at 3-3, and a point differential of -13 was given a wild card. Firminiaz is an active nation and should have this spot.

[New West Guiana]

Everyone hold up for a second!! Because there is another error here!!

I think we were too busy considering Kinzar's argument, that we totally did not notice Firiminaz sitting there in Group 3. Firminiaz also has a 3-3 record and a point differential of -11. They were not given a wild card. Euskirribakondara, at 3-3, and a point differential of -13 was given a wild card. Firminiaz is an active nation and should have this spot.

This weekend for me is extremely busy(having to work double shift add on top of that grandma in hospital), after giving everything an after though I've gone to how I do things, take all the groups and line them up 1-28 (simply I did it different(the first time) than what I normally would do). In truth it really didn't as many I had though, just two. Even after doing it this way Kinzar still didn't make it.

1 The Serbian Empire               6   5  1  197  93 +104   15
2 Stretta                          6   5  1  154  65 +89   15
3 Grandtrre                        6   5  1  192 104 +88   15
4 West Angola                      6   5  1  137  67 +70   15
5 Saintland                        6   5  1  108  67 +41   15
6 Schmiegelland                    6   4  2  169  91 +78   12
7 Crysuko                          6   4  2  147  95 +52   12
8 Democratic States of Fenbar      6   4  2  146 115 +31   12
9 Catonia Majora                   6   4  2  121 100 +21   12
10 Konariona                        6   4  2  111  98 +13   12
11 Suramani                         6   3  3  125  95 +30    9
12 Kriegiersien                     6   3  3  124 123  +1    9
13 Chunnan                          6   3  3  104 109  −5    9
14 Ironite                          6   3  3  111 117  −6    9
15 Firiminaz                        6   3  3   95 106 −11    9
16 Levivania                        6   1  5   84 116 −32    3
17 Kinzar                           6   3  3  113 126 −13    9
18 Euskirribakondara                6   3  3  124 137 −13    9
19 Kintratar                        6   2  4  109 110  −1    6
20 Catholican Catholica             6   2  4   98 127 −29    6
21 Demonslove                       6   1  5  112 182 −70    3
22 German American States           6   1  5   98 169 −71    3
23 The Sova Empire                  6   0  6   68 229 −161    0
24 The Fair Republic                6   0  6   56 253 −197    0
25 Nothton                          6   5  1  147 109 +38   15  [CTE'd]
26 United Warrisons                 6   2  4  135 148 −13    6 [CTE'd]
27 Rodard                           6   1  5  103 150 −47    3 [CTE'd]
28 Zeedoom                          6   3  3  120 107 +13    9 [Disqualified]

How the playoff format was, top two of each group, because Northton CTE'd and how I veiw CTE nations once they've CTE they no longer exists. Northtons spot was forfeited to Levivania as they still exsisted. Even as unfair that is that is how I judge nations that CTE.

[Vettrera]

So essentially, going CTE is like vacating all of your wins, without it changing the actual standings?