The World Bowl Discussion Thread (OOC)

[Voltronica]

I did it because it creates drama. The whole divisional stage + rivalry day is about, first, guaranteeing yourself a playoff spot, and second, putting yourself into position to play for a bye. All-or-nothing games are exciting

Really, I'm fine with criticism and people disagreeing with how I chose to do things, but why are these issues (division championship, no home games) just now being brought up during the tournament? This was all clearly stated in the bid post, and there was literally zero discussion or commentary about it during the voting. It's not like I'm sneaking these things in through the back door.

I haven't called these outright issues of the host I have called them the unique aesthetics of the host...and I like the aesthetic difference from the normal soccer based stuff...I want my NFL(div bracket), NCAA (div final) mixed milkshakes

[Cassadaigua]

Bluth, if you would.... explain to me the purpose of the "Division Championship" day? Teams playing an extra game to see who gets a bye? Doesn't that defeat the purpose and (ICly) screw over the team that loses that game unnecessarily?

If this is the only purpose, Newmanistan will be forfeiting that game as it is seen as unnecessary. (Such a forfeit, by the way, should only be seen as an IN-CHARACTER protest).

Awww, scared of another ass-whooping?!

[84733842]

Bluth: Don't worry too much about the comments. First, sometimes it takes actual play and RP experience with the novel features of a bid to notice its potential downsides. Second, any time you innovate you'll get a certain number of naysayers regardless of merits, as my puppetmaster will readily attest.

That said, I see Newmanistan's point. The division championship game is okay if you win it. But if you lose it, you get a worse deal than if you finished third. You have to play one more game than every other team including your third-place opponent. From an IC standpoint that's just not right, even if from Margaret's view it makes no difference.

[Colmark]

Reminder to Colmark: My RP permissions give me the right to determine HOW injured my players get.

You're dangerously close to crossing my ignore threshold.

I'll add the disputed text here for clarity:
Sarzonia QB Gavin Davis, RB Shaquice Allen and C Kenny Bridger were all injured, Davis and Allen seeming to have leg injuries inflicted by diving defenders, while Bridger was helped off after being at the bottom of an almighty pile-up.
I simply put that they were injured, adding a bit of colour to what might have caused it. Your RP permissions allow injuries to be caused by the opposition, which I have done, not allowing the opponent (me) to determine severity, which I have not done. I am willing to be corrected, but I believe I have stayed well within the guidelines with this.

[Bluth Corporation]

Oh, I'm not taking any of this personally; I'm just a bit a bit confused by the timing is all. Though it's a good point about how potential issues with innovations don't always manifest themselves until they're put into practice.

Newmanistan, I really didn't think of it in those terms--I mean, I was trying to look at it ICly too, but I guess it all depends on how the coach weighs playoff positioning vs. injury. That said, I did kind of have the NCAA basketball conference championships in mind when I created the division championship games, though I suppose the risk of injury is significantly less than it would be in football.

[North Chicanan]

I did it because it creates drama. The whole divisional stage + rivalry day is about, first, guaranteeing yourself a playoff spot, and second, putting yourself into position to play for a bye. All-or-nothing games are exciting

Really, I'm fine with criticism and people disagreeing with how I chose to do things, but why are these issues (division championship, no home games) just now being brought up during the tournament? This was all clearly stated in the bid post, and there was literally zero discussion or commentary about it during the voting. It's not like I'm sneaking these things in through the back door.

I'm not criticizing you as a host or this decision.
I'm just saying that right now, looking ICly at this situation, Newmanistan has more motivation to LOSE to Rennidan then to beat them.

I think that's a couple other state's position as well. I know North Chicanan looks more fortunate since Bluth Corporation and Buffalostan have to play off for a bye while we can rest up, essentially giving us a bye before we get ran over by a division loser :-p

Mind you, I'm most certainly not complaining and since I showed up after the bid process I didn't really see this as a problem. And I like drama, so I see both sides of the equation. And using everything so far to figure out how a future World Bowl bid will be conducted.

[F1-Insanity]

We'll see what happens and evaluate accordingly.

[Qazox]

At World Bowl VIII (hosted by one of the co-hosts of the current World Cup, TBI) we had an unusual format (the POD system) and it marked the first time a 16-seed won the World Bowl (Cassadaigua). Granted that format compared to the one used in this World Bowl was very strange.

My only bone is why couldn't the rivalry game have been between both halves of the divison (ie: wk 6) instead of at the end?. As for The Division championship meh. It adds a bit of intrigue, but could punish BC or Sarz (or any division winner not including the DC) who if they lose the DC could be 11-1 (or 10-2 or 9-2-1) and be seeded below a team that went 8-3 or worse and won their DC.

In the future, personally, please no more Division championships (as it complicates the wiki). I do like the rivalry game(s).

Speaking of which, i'll get started on the WB14 wikipage sometime this week.

[Sarzonia]

Really, I'm fine with criticism and people disagreeing with how I chose to do things, but why are these issues (division championship, no home games) just now being brought up during the tournament? This was all clearly stated in the bid post, and there was literally zero discussion or commentary about it during the voting. It's not like I'm sneaking these things in through the back door.

In case you didn't notice, I was gone from NS for a good week because of a personal emergency and the death of a close family member.

If I had the time and the opportunity to closely examine your host bid, I would have stridently opposed your plan to have ALL matches played in Bluth Corporation. And it would have been my deciding factor in voting against your bid.

The whole rivalry thing I'm not too bothered by. I'm far more upset about the no home matches issue.

And Colmark, your RP intimated that Bridger had a fairly severe injury with him being helped off the field. It's not the first time you've had one of my player injured. Frankly, it's nearly enough for me to disallow future players from injuring my players.

[German Zerabithea]

Wish Osarius was acitive right now. This is something that we both have been waiting for.

[Cosumar]

Wish Osarius was acitive right now. This is something that we both have been waiting for.

Same here. Churchma (my rival in pretty much every sport) hasn't really been RPing much lately. It's always fun when we both RP for our matchups...

[Colmark]

Really, I'm fine with criticism and people disagreeing with how I chose to do things, but why are these issues (division championship, no home games) just now being brought up during the tournament? This was all clearly stated in the bid post, and there was literally zero discussion or commentary about it during the voting. It's not like I'm sneaking these things in through the back door.

In case you didn't notice, I was gone from NS for a good week because of a personal emergency and the death of a close family member.

If I had the time and the opportunity to closely examine your host bid, I would have stridently opposed your plan to have ALL matches played in Bluth Corporation. And it would have been my deciding factor in voting against your bid.

The whole rivalry thing I'm not too bothered by. I'm far more upset about the no home matches issue.

And Colmark, your RP intimated that Bridger had a fairly severe injury with him being helped off the field. It's not the first time you've had one of my player injured. Frankly, it's nearly enough for me to disallow future players from injuring my players.

I don't know what sports you watch/play, but whenever I watch/play sport and there is an injury, the player is usually helped off the field. Grow up

[Voltronica]

In case you didn't notice, I was gone from NS for a good week because of a personal emergency and the death of a close family member.

If I had the time and the opportunity to closely examine your host bid, I would have stridently opposed your plan to have ALL matches played in Bluth Corporation. And it would have been my deciding factor in voting against your bid.

The whole rivalry thing I'm not too bothered by. I'm far more upset about the no home matches issue.

And Colmark, your RP intimated that Bridger had a fairly severe injury with him being helped off the field. It's not the first time you've had one of my player injured. Frankly, it's nearly enough for me to disallow future players from injuring my players.

I don't know what sports you watch/play, but whenever I watch/play sport and there is an injury, the player is usually helped off the field. Grow up

True on the part of realism but incorrect regarding the traditional WB constitutional rules mentioning RP rights and ownership of team interactions. If Sarz wishes to contest the issue those post will have a reduced bonus or it can be decided at the hosts discretion as the authority here...but since its behind the scenes I believe the decision be kept that way. Because who else other than BC is going to see the bonuses? In otherwords the officiating "judge" in the matter should remain silently authoritative.

[Whittoria]

I don't know what sports you watch/play, but whenever I watch/play sport and there is an injury, the player is usually helped off the field. Grow up

True on the part of realism but incorrect regarding the traditional WB constitutional rules mentioning RP rights and ownership of team interactions. If Sarz wishes to contest the issue those post will have a reduced bonus or it can be decided at the hosts discretion as the authority here...but since its behind the scenes I believe the decision be kept that way. Because who else other than BC is going to see the bonuses? In otherwords the officiating "judge" in the matter should remain silently authoritative.

I haven't actually read the WB constitution in its entirety, but if someone ever went beyond the permissions I've allowed I'd just write what "really" happened in my RP, and then point at the incorrect RP and say LIAR! LIAAARRRR!!!!!!!!!.

Or I'd come up with something awesome/hilarious/magical that would bring him back onto the field, like a doctor performed emergency gallbladder surgery AND a lobotomy in 30 minutes and the player immediately went back into the game, or the player took a salt tablet and it actually cured him of all his injuries and ailments and in fact made him something of a supersoldier. Of course, if you absolutely insist on realism, then by all means go ahead and be boring have at it.

[Sarzonia]

In case you didn't notice, I was gone from NS for a good week because of a personal emergency and the death of a close family member.

If I had the time and the opportunity to closely examine your host bid, I would have stridently opposed your plan to have ALL matches played in Bluth Corporation. And it would have been my deciding factor in voting against your bid.

The whole rivalry thing I'm not too bothered by. I'm far more upset about the no home matches issue.

And Colmark, your RP intimated that Bridger had a fairly severe injury with him being helped off the field. It's not the first time you've had one of my player injured. Frankly, it's nearly enough for me to disallow future players from injuring my players.

I don't know what sports you watch/play, but whenever I watch/play sport and there is an injury, the player is usually helped off the field. Grow up

Problem is, these are my players and I'm contesting what you're doing with my players. I have subsequently asked you to revise your wording of it.

Thank you for blowing the right to decide whether my players get injured for everyone else.

And finally, telling me to "grow up" in all this is not a productive way to deal with anyone here. It may have a negative effect on how others perceive you as a RPer who follows the written rules and unwritten conventions we have here.

[The Butterfly Queen]

Grow up

Following most injuries, players leave the field or court with minimal help. But that is not the point. Disregarding the wishes of your opponent, especially on as well regarded as Sarz, is completely unacceptable. And personally, your tone is coming off as a bit more than rude. This RP thing works because we respect each other. Give that some consideration. How would you feel if someone pushed things on you?


Oh yeah. This is a D&S puppet.

[Osarius]

Wish Osarius was acitive right now. This is something that we both have been waiting for.

yeah, hopefully ill have time to RP this when i get home. preferably with collaboration, but we'll see. garbongo seems to be having a good run as head coach, so there are a few RP angles we can go for on this.

[Colmark]

Grow up

Following most injuries, players leave the field or court with minimal help. But that is not the point. Disregarding the wishes of your opponent, especially on as well regarded as Sarz, is completely unacceptable. And personally, your tone is coming off as a bit more than rude. This RP thing works because we respect each other. Give that some consideration. How would you feel if someone pushed things on you?


Oh yeah. This is a D&S puppet.

OK, being 'helped off' can mean anything from the physio giving them a shoulder to lean on to a stretcher, plus being a well known turn of phrase for leaving the field injured. Seeing as I RPed 2 with unspecified leg injuries (allowed by Sarzonia's RP permissions, which allow the opponent to injure a player but not to determine length). I have acted totally within the guidelines. And I accept my use of 'grow up' was somewhat rude, but Sarzonia wasn't exactly polite either, and I am finding this a bit annoying to be frank. I have not pushed anything on him, he would be well within reality of the RP to say they were all minor injuries, my side plays very boring negative football, and so to keep the RPs even remotely interesting, I have had to add non-game related events to them, as most have had at most 3 scores in them. The storyline of that one was that there was a war of words between the sides as both sides felt they had had players injured deliberately. There was no hint of how long they would be out for, what became of it was completely up to Sarzonia.

Problem is, these are my players and I'm contesting what you're doing with my players. I have subsequently asked you to revise your wording of it.

Thank you for blowing the right to decide whether my players get injured for everyone else.

And finally, telling me to "grow up" in all this is not a productive way to deal with anyone here. It may have a negative effect on how others perceive you as a RPer who follows the written rules and unwritten conventions we have here.

I wont revise my wording because it is ambiguous and can be taken any way by you in your next RP, which was explicitly allowed in your permissions. If you don't like the fact your players were injured, either don't allow other people to RP inuries at the start of the tournament, or decide that they are minor and they are back in the next game. And as for a change of heart, thats your prerogative, it is your decision alone, it is unlikely I will face you in this tournament again and so I am underwhelmed, though I think you are over-reacting.
Maybe me telling you to grow up is juvenile, but maybe its simply a reciprocation of your behaviour.

This will be my final comment on the matter, I have made my case which I believe is sound and I now defer any further debate or ruling to the host.

[Delaclava]

OK, being 'helped off' can mean anything from the physio giving them a shoulder to lean on to a stretcher, plus being a well known turn of phrase for leaving the field injured. Seeing as I RPed 2 with unspecified leg injuries (allowed by Sarzonia's RP permissions, which allow the opponent to injure a player but not to determine length). I have acted totally within the guidelines. And I accept my use of 'grow up' was somewhat rude, but Sarzonia wasn't exactly polite either, and I am finding this a bit annoying to be frank. I have not pushed anything on him, he would be well within reality of the RP to say they were all minor injuries, my side plays very boring negative football, and so to keep the RPs even remotely interesting, I have had to add non-game related events to them, as most have had at most 3 scores in them. The storyline of that one was that there was a war of words between the sides as both sides felt they had had players injured deliberately. There was no hint of how long they would be out for, what became of it was completely up to Sarzonia.

The guidelines by which you are supposed to RP aren't the basic ones that people post with their rosters. It's how your opponent asks you to RP, period. Sarzonia doesn't like the implications that you've created with how you've RPed, and you have a responsibility to change it. That's what you have to do even if the opponent is being totally ridiculous, and Sarz is being perfectly reasonable here, so you must change it. What's more, Sarzonia has not been rude or condescending to you once and you have no right to pin blame on him.

I wont revise my wording because it is ambiguous and can be taken any way by you in your next RP, which was explicitly allowed in your permissions. If you don't like the fact your players were injured, either don't allow other people to RP inuries at the start of the tournament, or decide that they are minor and they are back in the next game. And as for a change of heart, thats your prerogative, it is your decision alone, it is unlikely I will face you in this tournament again and so I am underwhelmed, though I think you are over-reacting.
Maybe me telling you to grow up is juvenile, but maybe its simply a reciprocation of your behaviour.

This will be my final comment on the matter, I have made my case which I believe is sound and I now defer any further debate or ruling to the host.

Exactly why you have to change your RP. As you say, it can be taken in any way, and the way Sarzonia took it, it's a violation of what you're allowed to do with his players. The reason he had the permission the way it is was because any other player would have respected his requests and RPed accordingly.

And just one quick note: Your RPs aren't boring because not much scoring happens in the game. Your RPs are boring because that's just the way they are. You have no right to violate others' permissions in a poor attempt to spice them up.

[The Babbage Islands]

When a simple issue like Sarzonia and Colmark generates this much heat, something is seriously wrong.

Colmark is within his rights to RP as he did. He violated no rule, custom, practice, or published request with his original post.

Sarzonia is also within his rights to request that the RP be adjusted. This sort of give-and-take between participants is commonplace and often improves stories.

The choice before the two is simple; resolve this like gentlemen, or not. Save possibly for the host, the rest of us need to step back to a respectful distance. Pouring fuel on the flames is not going to help.

[The Fanboyists]

*snip for spacing reasons*

The fact is, if someone asks you to change an aspect of your RP involving their players, you are required by the rules of this RPing system to honor their wishes, or those aspects of your post may be ignored. This ranges from allowing them to change their scorers (although doing that without clearing it first is rather bad etiquette, in my experience) to injuring their players, even if their right to determine severity is not, in the word of the law, violated.

Also, watch an actually well-played defensive football game and come back and tell me it's boring (please note if you actually do this, I will call you a liar): the only reason it sounds boring is because you let it sound boring.

You don't have to go back and do a match report; several RP'ers have RP'ed from the players point of view, and there's some serious opportunities there. Describe what a game (or even practice or a pre-game routine) is like for a player, and you have an easy way to make it interesting. Let me tell you from personal experience, there are few things as exhilirating as smashing some pretty-boy prickquarterback's face on the grass. There are precious few things more exciting for a crowd than watching a quick-thinking player jump in front of a pass and start running back with it. Not many things shift momentum as decisively as watching the refs point the other way as they stand near a huge pile on the field. There's lots of satisfaction (and plenty of sensations and excitement) on the things that happen every play: lining up and watching that ball is nerve-wracking while you run through the play you're about to run in your head to make sure it goes right. Sticking that hand in the dirt is uncomfortable; describe that. Or, if all else fails, describe the satisfaction that comes from, as my coach put it, HMF'ing (Hitting a Motherf***er). Even if it's not a quarterback, it's pretty damn satisfying smacking someone hard enough that they go about two or three feet in the air and land hard. Describe the crack that football pads make when they collide (unless you're RPing with Rennidan, in which case, think about what sound they'll make hitting flesh), or the thud that's audible to everyone when some sod hits the turf after a big hit. Describe the crowd.

Or, to summarize it, describe the game like you're someone that's actually there. That makes for interesting RP. Scoring can be boring as hell. Just watch a Big-10 or Big-12 college football game sometime, and you'll see exactly what I mean.

*continued snip for space reasons*

Heads up; this isn't the sort of tone and rapport you want to be establishing with others. I will provide an example of something that is far more likely to garner you respect. Names have been changed to protect the good person involved. They can come forward if they want; they know who they are.

In case you don't want to read it. Colmark, for a (relatively) friendly pointer, perhaps you should read it. People explaining stuff to me when I started RPing helped immensely.

Another RP'er evidently stays up quite late to RP. I have school most mornings, so I don't. Rarely have I managed to sneak in an RP before them, any time we have played (which is frequently, for those who don't know). As a result, I believe that prior to this tournament, I have managed to choose my scorers a grand total of once, and it was a case where I lost rather badly. So this past time, the most recent of our two divisional match-ups, I TG'ed them, and asked if I could perhaps choose my own scorers this time. They could have refused: in my RP permissions, I have given the permission for others to choose my scorers if they RP first, especially since he tends to do rather statistically-detailed posts. Instead, we worked together to make sure we both got what we wanted: they picked their own scorers, and laid down yardage stats and such, and I chose my scorers while adhering to the statistics they had used in his own RP. We explained it away IC'ly as being a coverage dispute between two news outlets.

You needn't go that far, normally, but in general, respecting other's wishes in regards to their own players and such (especially when it's a matter of a small change of a few words) will go a long way towards gaining respect here. Just for future reference.

Also for future reference: if there's ever an issue where you're not sure about something involving another person's players, team, etc, TG them before you include it. It's not hard to go back and edit a post to include added information or elements.

[Sarzonia]

Maybe me telling you to grow up is juvenile, but maybe its simply a reciprocation of your behaviour.

Excuse me? How is MY behaviour juvenile? Your telling me to grow up after I have outlined my objections to how you RP'd my characters is juvenile.

As other people have mentioned, the RP conventions here require you to respect the boundaries set by other players. And if someone objects to how you've acted, whether they were within the bounds of permissions or not, it is your responsibility to adhere to their wishes.

I'll use an example: I posted a fairly lengthy RP in which I had referees from a particular nation botch a call because these particular refs were supposed to be awful. The player whose nation I'd RP'd as the refs' nation of origin asked me to remove the reference to his nation. I removed any reference to nationality in my RP. I actually had a reason why I wanted those refs to come from that country based on storyline. However, since the player requested it, I respected his wishes.

I ask for you to do the same.

[Cosumar]

I RPed every single day for this World Bowl and held 3rd place for pretty much the whole thing.
Then I have my playoff spot stolen from me on the last day by an unranked team who never RPed.
Damn, I have the worst luck.

I did better in World Bowl 12 when I was lower ranked and my RP was sporadic (at best)!
At least it was a close game...

[Bluth Corporation]

Yeah, it's unfortunate. You vs. Churchma was about a 50-50 proposition, as was D Land vs. Spudulicks. Your RP-adjusted strength by this time was actually more than twice that of Churchma's, but in absolute terms it was still pretty close in comparison to, say, the spread between Sibirsky and Qazox (another upset--yes, Sibirsky's a pretty heavy RPer, but so is Qazox). Just one of those things.

A question for previous hosts: As explained in my bid, I simply added RP bonus directly to a team's strength rating coming in, modifying it daily to account for new RPs + decay over time of old bonus. Should I ever host this or a similar event in the future, are there other methods of accounting for RP bonus that will make situations such as Cosumar's less likely?

[Cosumar]

Yeah, it's unfortunate. You vs. Churchma was about a 50-50 proposition, as was D Land vs. Spudulicks. Your RP-adjusted strength by this time was actually more than twice that of Churchma's, but in absolute terms it was still pretty close in comparison to, say, the spread between Sibirsky and Qazox (another upset--yes, Sibirsky's a pretty heavy RPer, but so is Qazox). Just one of those things.

Yeah, it's just pretty frustrating. There's always World Bowl XIV though.