Nationstates Olympic Games Discussion Thread

[Kelssek]

As one of the few people who've actually hosted the Summer Olympics solo, I fully agree with Liventia here and I'm glad this isn't going any further.

[Electrum]

Yup, let's not go down the route of mandating the number of hosts for the Olympics.

While we're in the mood for discussing amendments - what are people's thoughts on allowing hosts to propose the addition of sports that award medals (but are not on the base/extended list) to the program, reflecting the real life experience? Of course, these temporary medal sports will be for that edition, and will never be included on the base/extended list (unless added to the RL Olympics).

[Northwest Kalactin]

Yup, let's not go down the route of mandating the number of hosts for the Olympics.

While we're in the mood for discussing amendments - what are people's thoughts on allowing hosts to propose the addition of sports that award medals (but are not on the base/extended list) to the program, reflecting the real life experience? Of course, these temporary medal sports will be for that edition, and will never be included on the base/extended list (unless added to the RL Olympics).

I really like this idea Electrum. I have never won a medal in the winter games, I did however get second place in Bandy. I always like to RP some of my demenstration event characters as world class in their profession, and I think giving out medals would be fun to RP. Obviously this has some personal preference but I think it is an overall good idea.

Edit: If this was to go to vote with the host bid do you think we would implement it this edition?

[Kelssek]

To make sure we're on the same page, at the moment, the host of the RL Olympics may put five sports onto the program. Currently, the five to be held at Tokyo 2020 (+1) are part of our extended list, giving the Summer Olympics host the option to include them as medal events or not.

Full disclosure, as I was the Council president at the time, I was directly involved in making it this way, so I do think it is the best thing ever. Okay, not necessarily. My personal preference is to emulate the RL program as much as possible, whatever it might be. I find it more immersive that way.

[Liventia]

To make sure we're on the same page, at the moment, the host of the RL Olympics may put five sports onto the program. Currently, the five to be held at Tokyo 2020 (+1) are part of our extended list, giving the Summer Olympics host the option to include them as medal events or not.

Full disclosure, as I was the Council president at the time, I was directly involved in making it this way, so I do think it is the best thing ever. Okay, not necessarily. My personal preference is to emulate the RL program as much as possible, whatever it might be. I find it more immersive that way.

This is where I stand on the issue too. I agree that we should stick to the RL program, including the RL "host choice" events on the extended list. I don't believe we should be allowing NS hosts to potentially add "created" sports from their own country to the medal events on their own whim.

[Kriegiersien]

Yes, more Bandy, Kriegiersien approves.
But we don't want real life flaws intrude too much here, don't we? It is kinda funny though.

Belt wrestling and other local wrestling versions obviously added form the host:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Asia ... Arts_Games

[Kelssek]

That is a good argument that someone running a multi-sport event limited to a certain region/group, and to a certain category of sports, should have discretion to add certain sports to the program. But you will notice that what is being simulated here is not the Regional Indoor and Martial Arts Games, but the Olympic Games.

At most you've simply re-stated the question being asked, should the host of the NS Olympics have the option of awarding medals for the five sports that the host of the RL Olympics has decided on (which is the current situation), or be allowed to choose those five sports independently of what the RL Olympics does. My answer, and it looks like Liventia's as well, is no.

If someone wants to run a World Games (the RL multi-sport event for non-Olympic sports), which CH did once, I'm perfectly fine with that. But if you're going to simulate the Olympics, you should simulate the Olympics.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

To make sure we're on the same page, at the moment, the host of the RL Olympics may put five sports onto the program. Currently, the five to be held at Tokyo 2020 (+1) are part of our extended list, giving the Summer Olympics host the option to include them as medal events or not.

Full disclosure, as I was the Council president at the time, I was directly involved in making it this way, so I do think it is the best thing ever. Okay, not necessarily. My personal preference is to emulate the RL program as much as possible, whatever it might be. I find it more immersive that way.

This is where I stand on the issue too. I agree that we should stick to the RL program, including the RL "host choice" events on the extended list. I don't believe we should be allowing NS hosts to potentially add "created" sports from their own country to the medal events on their own whim.

I respectfully disagree.
Although it is of course preferable from a realism standpoint for the ns Olympics to emulate the rl ones, I read said emulation differently. In the rl Olympics, there is a list of sports that will be part of the games: obviously we add more events in order to allow for a gender balance, however for the most part that is our list.
In the rl Olympics however, there is an opportunity for hosts to add 5 sports to the programme, as we know these are sports that are generally widespread in the host nation. I take a middle ground on this position, as although I disagree that invented sports could be added as by their nature they will be unfamiliar to potential participants, I see no reason why ns Olympic hosts should not be given the same ability to 'customise,' if that is the right term, their Olympics in the same way that rl hosts can do.

[Kelssek]

They can be held as demonstration events. Why do they need to be held as medal events?

[The Sarian]

That is a good argument that someone running a multi-sport event limited to a certain region/group, and to a certain category of sports, should have discretion to add certain sports to the program. But you will notice that what is being simulated here is not the Regional Indoor and Martial Arts Games, but the Olympic Games.

At most you've simply re-stated the question being asked, should the host of the NS Olympics have the option of awarding medals for the five sports that the host of the RL Olympics has decided on (which is the current situation), or be allowed to choose those five sports independently of what the RL Olympics does. My answer, and it looks like Liventia's as well, is no.

If someone wants to run a World Games (the RL multi-sport event for non-Olympic sports), which CH did once, I'm perfectly fine with that. But if you're going to simulate the Olympics, you should simulate the Olympics.

I must confess, I don't have strong feelings either way but I think this is a pretty poor argument. We diverge from the RL Olympics on a number of things - including on sports through the use of demonstration events. The question really is if it makes more sense to have sports which change on the preferences of a RL nation and its culture, or on the (role played) preferences of the nation doing our Olympics.

That said, I do fear if we did allow a bidding nation to decide the five medal slots that could become a point of contention in the bid which people may factor beyond their actual competence as a host. For example, someone voting against an experienced and capable bidder because of their refusal to make X sport a medal event - or in the case of a (rare) contested bidding process, a lesser host using popular sports as a means of overcoming a more traditionally superior bid. I'm also add my concern to what Liventia said about "created" sports, because that sounds like something people might think sounds fun but is really a recipe for chaos and confusion when you think about it for longer than ten seconds.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

They can be held as demonstration events. Why do they need to be held as medal events?

Why, in actual fact, does it matter?
Demonstration events are not part of the rl Olympics, neither is American football. Adding American football to the ns Olympics as a demonstration event is already a diversion from the rl Olympics, as demonstration events are not a thing.
The only difference between adding American football as a demonstration event and adding it as a medal event is that when Velstrania finally wins Gold, it's recorded in the medal table. Therefore it gives more insentive for people to participate and rp in it.
Am I more likely to devote my time to a sport wherein I can receive a medal and develop the characters in that, or am I more likely to devote my time to a sport where the ending is something of a damp squib and it's just recorded that I came first?

[The Royal Kingdom of Quebec]

They can be held as demonstration events. Why do they need to be held as medal events?

Why, in actual fact, does it matter?
Demonstration events are not part of the rl Olympics, neither is American football. Adding American football to the ns Olympics as a demonstration event is already a diversion from the rl Olympics, as demonstration events are not a thing.
The only difference between adding American football as a demonstration event and adding it as a medal event is that when Velstrania finally wins Gold, it's recorded in the medal table. Therefore it gives more insentive for people to participate and rp in it.
Am I more likely to devote my time to a sport wherein I can receive a medal and develop the characters in that, or am I more likely to devote my time to a sport where the ending is something of a damp squib and it's just recorded that I came first?

While I may not have been the official cohost of an Olympic Games, I would still remind you, as one of scorinators for the Aeropag Games' qualifying events, that such application of whataboutism is a particularly ignorant view of the NS Olympics on the operational side of things.

[Krytenia]

They can be held as demonstration events. Why do they need to be held as medal events?

Why, in actual fact, does it matter?

Host discretion. Hosting the Olympics are a massive undertaking, and host are, and always have been, under no obligation to host demonstration events. As they're not a part of the RL Olympics, I don't see why we should burden the NS Olympics with them. For instance, the demonstration events at the Emberton Games were scorinated by others with my explicit approval.

With regards to the "Tokyo Five" - the additional events chosen for 2020 - if the IOC had an explicit list of "bolt-ons" to choose from I'd have suggested we do that. As we don't, the least controversial and most sensible thing is to mirror the current Olympics.

[Kelssek]

I must confess, I don't have strong feelings either way but I think this is a pretty poor argument. We diverge from the RL Olympics on a number of things - including on sports through the use of demonstration events. The question really is if it makes more sense to have sports which change on the preferences of a RL nation and its culture, or on the (role played) preferences of the nation doing our Olympics.

It is a argument made on the normative commitment that I value the immersion that comes directly from a high measure of realism. It is a poor argument to you, to the extent that you disagree with the desired ends (the feeling of being "real") to which closely following the RL program is a means.

I'm not sure exactly what divergences you refer to. Gender equality in terms of which events are held does not break immersion because those are very minor things which most people would hardly notice because they're couched within a thick layer of "reality". Men's 800m freestyle and women's Greco-Roman wrestling are totally plausible Olympic events and the degree of divergence is small. Other divergences are out of practical necessity. The Olympics taking more than two RL weeks and being held more often than at four-year intervals does not break immersion because it remains "real" within the practicalities of roleplay and general NS Sports conventions.

They can be held as demonstration events. Why do they need to be held as medal events?

Why, in actual fact, does it matter?
Demonstration events are not part of the rl Olympics, neither is American football. Adding American football to the ns Olympics as a demonstration event is already a diversion from the rl Olympics, as demonstration events are not a thing.

"Demonstration events aren't part of the Olympics" is factually wrong, at least historically speaking. The IOC strongly discourages them now because of the logistical issues (the RL limits have to do with the sheer number of people that the Olympics now involves), but they have allowed "don't call it a demonstration event" tournaments in wushu and sumo to be held/planned for Beijing 2008 and Tokyo 2020.

It matters to me because what you propose is a strong immersion-breaker that would greatly reduce my enjoyment. It seems that for you enjoyment is directly linked to being able to claim an Olympic medal, any Olympic medal. I'd be lying if I denied that winning imaginary medals does feel nice. But my enjoyment has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the immersion which comes from the subjective feeling of realism.

I spend a lot of time RPing soccer things like the soccer domestic league linked in my sig and my national team in the World Cup when my chances of winning anything in those contexts is practically zero, even in the long term. I get enjoyment out of that and I do that instead of putting my limited time into my favourite sport where I'd have much better chances of winning (hockey) if I focused on it, because there's also more opportunity for interactions and to play off other people's RP. All this is directly connected to the feeling of creating an imaginary but realistic world in collaboration with other people.

For me, American football (etc.) as a medal event would significantly detract from the source of my fun, and make the entire event of the Olympics a "damp squib" as you put it.

[Liventia]

"Demonstration events aren't part of the Olympics" is factually wrong, at least historically speaking. The IOC strongly discourages them now because of the logistical issues (the RL limits have to do with the sheer number of people that the Olympics now involves), but they have allowed "don't call it a demonstration event" tournaments in wushu and sumo to be held/planned for Beijing 2008 and Tokyo 2020.

It matters to me because what you propose is a strong immersion-breaker that would greatly reduce my enjoyment. It seems that for you enjoyment is directly linked to being able to claim an Olympic medal, any Olympic medal. I'd be lying if I denied that winning imaginary medals does feel nice. But my enjoyment has nothing to do with that and everything to do with the immersion which comes from the subjective feeling of realism.

I spend a lot of time RPing soccer things like the soccer domestic league linked in my sig and my national team in the World Cup when my chances of winning anything in those contexts is practically zero, even in the long term. I get enjoyment out of that and I do that instead of putting my limited time into my favourite sport where I'd have much better chances of winning (hockey) if I focused on it, because there's also more opportunity for interactions and to play off other people's RP. All this is directly connected to the feeling of creating an imaginary but realistic world in collaboration with other people.

For me, American football (etc.) as a medal event would significantly detract from the source of my fun, and make the entire event of the Olympics a "damp squib" as you put it.

I want to align myself wholly and entirely with all aspects of this post and the sentiment behind it. It conveys my exact thoughts on why I take part and offer to host the event. I would lose significant interest in the NS Olympics if it deviates from its RL counterpart, and likely result in me leaving the game as the Olympics is one of the few things I still take part in with any serious interest.

(Also, as an RL Olympic journalist, confirming Kelssek's points on "demonstration events". Hell, there was a snow volleyball "this isn't a demonstration event oh no sir" event at Pyeongchang 2018.)

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Why, in actual fact, does it matter?
Demonstration events are not part of the rl Olympics, neither is American football. Adding American football to the ns Olympics as a demonstration event is already a diversion from the rl Olympics, as demonstration events are not a thing.
The only difference between adding American football as a demonstration event and adding it as a medal event is that when Velstrania finally wins Gold, it's recorded in the medal table. Therefore it gives more insentive for people to participate and rp in it.
Am I more likely to devote my time to a sport wherein I can receive a medal and develop the characters in that, or am I more likely to devote my time to a sport where the ending is something of a damp squib and it's just recorded that I came first?

While I may not have been the official cohost of an Olympic Games, I would still remind you, as one of scorinators for the Aeropag Games' qualifying events, that such application of whataboutism is a particularly ignorant view of the NS Olympics on the operational side of things.

I was unaware that this proposal placed an obligation on hosts to add extra medal and/or demonstration events onto the Olympics programme, it merely gives them the option to add extra medal events should they wish to.

[Krytenia]

I was unaware that this proposal placed an obligation on hosts to add extra medal and/or demonstration events onto the Olympics programme, it merely gives them the option to add extra medal events should they wish to.

I can see it now.

Nation A bids for the Olympics. They're a longstanding and well respected host. They stick to the core events.

Nation B bids for the Olympics. They're a largely unknown quantity, but add American Football and a couple of other well-RPed but not Olympic events.

Nation B is awarded the Olympics because more people have voted for "ooh gridiron" than the capabilities of the host.

Nation B, inexperienced and unaware of the burdens of hosting, flames out on Day Four and is never seen again.

This is a can of worms that does not need opening. The current system has been fine since 2006 and i see no reason to change it now.

[Northwest Kalactin]

I was unaware that this proposal placed an obligation on hosts to add extra medal and/or demonstration events onto the Olympics programme, it merely gives them the option to add extra medal events should they wish to.

I can see it now.

Nation A bids for the Olympics. They're a longstanding and well respected host. They stick to the core events.

Nation B bids for the Olympics. They're a largely unknown quantity, but add American Football and a couple of other well-RPed but not Olympic events.

Nation B is awarded the Olympics because more people have voted for "ooh gridiron" than the capabilities of the host.

Nation B, inexperienced and unaware of the burdens of hosting, flames out on Day Four and is never seen again.

This is a can of worms that does not need opening. The current system has been fine since 2006 and i see no reason to change it now.

Change my vote from Yea to Nay on this one. We should avoid having nations win bids just due to the fact that they “can provide more events.” We don’t want to end up having it like the WC cycles during the 50s when the host with the most amount of friendlies win.

[Electrum]

Err NK, I would like to stress I was just sounding out people's opinions to see what people thought. It is not, or was not a proposal.

[Northwest Kalactin]

Err NK, I would like to stress I was just sounding out people's opinions to see what people thought. It is not, or was not a proposal.

Yeah I know, I was changing my support from yes to no on the amendment.

[Lisander]

This is really no contribution, but I think we should stick to core events and avoid demonstration events. It is completely unlikely that a person will be able to adequately address all events in RP (unless, perhaps, he/she is a loner who has nothing else to do, no other hobby or interest. Not saying this with bad intentions, FYI. I'm also kind of a loner). If one's interested in an e-Sports, Basque Pelota or 7ball, go ahead and start a tournament.

[Liventia]

Err NK, I would like to stress I was just sounding out people's opinions to see what people thought. It is not, or was not a proposal.

Yeah I know, I was changing my support from yes to no on the amendment.

There is no amendment that has been proposed.

[Liventia]

Proposing the following amendment to the Olympic Charter in regards to the positions of President and Vice-President of the Olympic Council, as well as membership of the Executive Council:

Where the current wording reads:

1.2.1. Composition
The Executive Committee is composed of the four Olympic Council members that most recently hosted an Olympic Games to its completion, and one other person appointed by the President. If less than four Olympic Council members have hosted a Games, then all of them will sit on the Executive Committee, and one additional member will be appointed by the Vice President.

[…]

1.3.1. Appointment
The President shall be the host of the most recent completed Games of the Olympiad. The Vice President shall be the host of the most recent completed Olympic Winter Games.

In the event that the President is unavailable to perform his or her responsibilites, the Vice Presdent shall assume the role of President. Both the President and Vice President may appoint successors, to assume the role of President when both the President and Vice President are unavailable; successors appointed by the President will supercede those appointed by the Vice President.

I propose the following changes in red:

1.2.1. Composition
The Executive Committee is composed of the Olympic Council President, Olympic Council Vice-President, the two other active Olympic Council members that most recently hosted (per §2.3.1) an Olympic Games to its completion, and one other person appointed by the President. If less than four Olympic Council members have hosted a Games, then all of them will sit on the Executive Committee, and one additional member will be appointed by the Vice President.

[…]

1.3.1. Appointment
The President shall be the host of the most recent completed Games of the Olympiad. The Vice President shall be the host of the most recent completed Olympic Winter Games. Should the host (per §2.3.1) of the most recent completed Games of the Olympiad and the most recent completed Olympic Winter Games be the same person, and the Olympic Winter Games was hosted by more than one person, then the President shall select a co-host of the most recent Olympic Winter Games to be Vice President. If the most recent completed Olympic Winter Games was not co-hosted, the President may appoint as Vice President any member of the Olympic Council who has previously hosted a Games of the Olympiad or Olympic Winter Games to completion.

In the event that the President is unavailable to perform his or her responsibilities, the Vice President shall assume the role of President. Both the President and Vice President may appoint successors, to assume the role of President when both the President and Vice President are unavailable; successors appointed by the President will supersede those appointed by the Vice President.

The aim of this proposal is three-fold:
(1) Corrects typographical errors in 1.3.1;
(2) Codifies the status quo in 1.2.1, removing the weasel clause about "fewer than four" OC members to have hosted a Games because for all intents and purposes this clause has been ignored in the past;
(3) Clarifies the membership of the Executive Committee should one user host the Olympic Winter Games and Games of the Olympiad back-to-back, therefore becoming both VP and President at the same time.

[Electrum]

I second the proposal above.

[Northwest Kalactin]

(I figured I post this here because none of the friendly threads accommodate all of these sports.)

So seeing that we will probably have the summer games in the August timeframe, I’m gonna do a thing where international teams can come and play in Northwest Kalactin. We will be offering games in pretty much very sport that has a somewhat large world championship. IC’ly it will take place a few months before the games to give my teams some international games to play in. (I kind of stole this idea from Banija, he used it during the last games.)

Soccer: (KPB: 4.8 (subject to change) Style: +5)

Gridiron: (1.67, +5)

Basketball: (6.5)

Rugby Sevens: (5.7)

Baseball: (1.18)

Handball: (8.57)