Nationstates Olympic Games Discussion Thread

[Taeshan]

Its not to say they would be required to run them, but based on the past few olympics hosts have let in a lot of demonstration events. Many of them have been the same ones over and over, if most hosts are going to run them anyways why not make them medal events.

Because then we’d have to take this discussion even further and decide which should be made medal events (or which criteria should be used), and not everyone would agree on that, and we’d probably end up having to vote on something. All for a name change.

If it ain’t broke…

I wasnt suggesting that we should change the name...And it only makes sense that things have to change eventually. Wow i cant believe i just said that.

[Cafundeu]

OK, being a first time participant in the Olympics, what am I to expect as far as promptness of scorination, and will RP bonuses count? I'm sure I have more questions but for now, these are the two important ones I can think of?

Well, the intent, as the bid states, is for a daily scorination with the RP cutoff always happening at the same time (approximately, of course), which will be noted before the begin of the Games, of course.

And RPs count for bonuses, yes.

What are the limits on puppets, if any? Is there, for example, a limit of, say, 300 events for puppets, or a limit of 800 events combined for master and puppet?

The basic limit is the "one puppet only rule". This puppet has the same limit of entries of the main nation, 500. But the limit cannot be combined, it is 500 for each nation.

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As for the demonstration sports, I'll let the proposals and approvals continue, and I'll only announce the sports that will be scorinated a couple of days before the opening of the RP thread, which will be approximately one week before the beginning of the Games. As there are many demonstration sports receiving approvals, the number of approvals needed may get higher in order to not have tons of sports being scorinated, even though I'm really planning to scorinate a good number of demonstration sports.

[Commerce Heights]

I wasnt suggesting that we should change the name...

“Medal events” are distinct from “demonstration events” in name only.

And it only makes sense that things have to change eventually.

No, change solely for the sake of change makes no sense at all.

[The Babbage Islands]

Demonstration sports, or their lack, should remain the province of hosts. They're becoming pretty rare in RL, but not non-existent.

The World Games address the desires of smaller sports on the outside looking in to have a place to go. They've been going IRL for 30 years now, and several former World Games events are now in the Olympics. Yet with the IOC caps on number of athletes in the Olympic Games there will be few if any near-future openings in the big show for many otherwise suitable sports, notwithstanding the IOC's announced policy to consider a sport's World Games history in deciding on additions to the Olympics.

I think a well-organised NS World Games, particularly with the input and blessing of the Olympic Council, could provide a sensible alternative for our usual run of demonstration sport candidates. Run it either in fall or in spring, once a year, in between Summer Olympics but not too close to the Winter Olympics.

[Bears Armed]

I wasnt suggesting that we should change the name...

“Medal events” are distinct from “demonstration events” in name only.

And in counting for the tables of Medal-winners...

[The Archregimancy]

Thoughts on the demonstration events issue... Again, since there are newish people here who don't participate in the World Cup, and might not realise I often offer thoughts on this sort of thing in a non-modly capacity, I reiterate that these are personal opinions only that carry no moderation weight.

1) The specific reason we use the real life Olympic event listing is, again, to stop us from bickering over which events to include. It provides a simple, easy to reference, neutral standard that largely stops arguments over the event listing. No doubt this disappoints baseball and softball fans in particular, but by using the official listing, we can blame the IOC for that decision rather than the NS Olympics hosts, or voting blocs of our fellow committee members. In other words, it becomes someone else's fault, and not our problem.

2) The big exception to the real life model are demonstration sports, which were indefinitely suspended by the RL IOC after the 1992 games. The 2008 wushu tournament in Beijing has been the only exception since 1992, though the London organisers are looking at netball.

3) I agree with QoD that NS Olympics demonstration sports are getting out of control. They're becoming the NSOG equivalent of friendlies in the NSWC: well-intentioned, enjoyed by many, but increasingly a potential burden on a host who already has a massive workload; but so popular that people are reluctant to cut back on them, or eliminate them entirely.

4) Whether an amendment to the charter is necessary to discourage them is a separate, though closely related issue. At present, I think not. At present, I think host's discretion still works, but I think Caf would be wholly within his rights to change the demonstration sport selection system midstream and restrict them to, for example, only the first 2-3 to reach the minimum endorsement cut-off. If future hosts adopt this same informal system, then we should be alright; I would hope, anyway. Only if informal host discretion doesn't work should we then look at formal restrictions.

[Wolfmanne]

I agree with a World Games, with or without Olympic Council endorsement.

[Commerce Heights]

And in counting for the tables of Medal-winners...

People care about those?

The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team events and not between countries.

[Chetkosk]

The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team events and not between countries.

And despite this, most Americans I've spoken to on the subject make a big deal about the fact that they think the US should have been top of the 2008 Olympics medal table
(China beat them by 15 golds, though the US got 10 more medals overall)

Basically, it's a debate between leaving demonstration events up to host discretion, or recognising the consistent popularity of some events (but then again, if they're very popular, they'll always be amongst the first to receive enough endorsements).

[Qazox]

And in counting for the tables of Medal-winners...

People care about those?

The Olympic Games are competitions between athletes in individual or team events and not between countries.

Just asking an opinion here, but weren't the US-USSR during the 1960-1988 Olympics basically using the Games as a stand-in for not actually having the Cold War turn into a Hot War? The US and a few "Western" nations boycotting the 1980 Moscow games lead directly to the USSR most of the "Eastern Bloc" countries (Yugoslavia being the lone exception, I think) boycotting the 1984 LA games. So while offically it isn't, in RL for almost 30 years, it practically was between countries not individuals.

In the NSUniverse, it's just for bragging rights any ways (says the only nation to participate in every Olympics so far and are like 100th in the overall medal standings...)

On a different note, I'm the NS equivalent of Norway. I have decent success in the Winter Games, but not so much the Summer games. LOL.

[Delaclava]

Should a puppet be allowed to endorse a demonstration sport as well as their master?

[Sarzonia]

Should a puppet be allowed to endorse a demonstration sport as well as their master?

I would think that would be bad form.

[Commerce Heights]

Basically, it's a debate between leaving demonstration events up to host discretion

Is anyone saying that demonstration events should not be up to host discretion, i.e., that Olympic hosts should be required to run non-Olympic events? If not, the “debate” is between leaving demonstration events up to host discretion and leaving demonstration events up to host discretion.

[Kelssek]

We could also move to break away from rl olympics, and add are own events to the olympics as per the interest of the people who partake in the olympics. I mean vote on inclusion of certain sports who in rl do not have the international interest needed to be an official sport, but here on nationstates have enough interest to be included in the games, this lessens the amount of demonstration events, though adds a bit to host workload.

Look, we've had this discussion before and NO. Arch has very succinctly stated the reasons why, and not for the first time. That way lies madness. And it adds quite a bit to host workload. Remember that awarding medals means the event becomes mandatory for the host to scorinate at every Games.

Generally I think the World Games is an excellent idea. And it would be a great "training ground" for potential Olympic hosts, too.

Just asking an opinion here, but weren't the US-USSR during the 1960-1988 Olympics basically using the Games as a stand-in for not actually having the Cold War turn into a Hot War?

Err... no. Please look up "détente", "Korean War", "Vietnam War", "Arab-Israeli conflict", and also "mutually assured destruction" for why direct warfare between the United States and the Soviet Union never happened and what actually became the proxy for that. The Western boycott of the Moscow Olympics was an act of protest against the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the Soviet bloc boycott of the Los Angeles Olympics was retaliation for that boycott. Politics will inevitably become involved when athletes compete under national flags. But by the same token part of the ideals of the Olympics is to bring nations together, and giving people everywhere someone to cheer for based on countries is how we've ended up doing it.

Should a puppet be allowed to endorse a demonstration sport as well as their master?

I don't see why not, since the whole point is to have sufficient participation. Again, all up to the host. All power to the host!

[Delaclava]

Should a puppet be allowed to endorse a demonstration sport as well as their master?

I don't see why not, since the whole point is to have sufficient participation. Again, all up to the host. All power to the host!

Because the odds that someone's going to participate with a master AND a puppet are slim, let alone RP a demonstration sport. And it doesn't seem much like the demonstration sport belongs in the Olympics if four or five actual people endorsed it as opposed to eight.

[Kelssek]

Because the odds that someone's going to participate with a master AND a puppet are slim, let alone RP a demonstration sport. And it doesn't seem much like the demonstration sport belongs in the Olympics if four or five actual people endorsed it as opposed to eight.

Why does that matter? If the host doesn't feel like it'll be worth their effort to scorinate a demonstration sport, they can just not hold it. That's what I did being a big meanie last year and only holding two (one of which was chosen primarily because it will be a real Olympic event in 2016). What's the problem? I really don't see why all this agonising is necessary, or even why people seem to think demonstration sports are integral to the Olympics. In the real Olympics we're coming up on 20 years since any were held at all.

This is part of the reason why I like the suggestion of a World Games, so all of us clamouring for demonstration events can have an event where they actually will be a real and important part of the event and we don't feel the need to clutter the Olympics with non-Olympic sports any more.

[Krytenia]

Indeed, the clamouring for all of these sports to be included as demonstration events could be seen as a yardstick for a separate competition for them. Let's have a look at the interest levels after the games, and possibly have someone bite the bullet and get a World Games rolling.

But let's put this all on the back burner for now, lest we scare people off entering at all.

[The Babbage Islands]

I really don't see why all this agonising is necessary, or even why people seem to think demonstration sports are integral to the Olympics. In the real Olympics we're coming up on 20 years since any were held at all.

Wushu. Beijing.

Nevertheless, you're on point.

::rummages about for Kry's suggested cooking device::

[Kelssek]

Technically speaking it was an international tournament organised during the Olympics that the IOC was okay with (the bid contract usually states no other international sporting event can take place at the same time in the host city).

[Darmen]

If it ain’t broke…

But apparently it is broke. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Commerce Heights]

I’ve decided that I want to host a World Games in October or November. Is anyone else also thinking about doing the same, or should I just go ahead with it?

But apparently it is broke. Otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

If I say that men’s synchronized swimming is a horrendous idea and should be scrapped immediately, does that automatically create a real problem with that event, where none existed before?

The recent suggestions range from eliminating demonstration events entirely to giving some of them official status. Clearly there’s no consensus on what problem exists, if any.

[Krytenia]

I’ve decided that I want to host a World Games in October or November. Is anyone else also thinking about doing the same, or should I just go ahead with it?

I was thinking something similar, to prepare myself for the possibility of launching a host bid for the VII Summer Olympics.

[Wolfmanne]

Two issues with it;

1. How do we decide what sports will be included in the World Games?

2. If it does have Olympic Council endorsement, are you automatically a member of it when you participate in the World Games? Or is it only the Olympics?

3. Will the World Games have it's own council?

[The Babbage Islands]

I’ve decided that I want to host a World Games in October or November. Is anyone else also thinking about doing the same, or should I just go ahead with it?

I was thinking something similar, to prepare myself for the possibility of launching a host bid for the VII Summer Olympics.

Great minds think alike. I expect that I would defer to one of the two of you, since you're both interested in hosting. But my thoughts are the same as Krytenia's. Maybe the NS World Games get started with a co-host tradition?

[The Babbage Islands]

Two issues with it;

1. How do we decide what sports will be included in the World Games?

2. If it does have Olympic Council endorsement, are you automatically a member of it when you participate in the World Games? Or is it only the Olympics?

3. Will the World Games have it's own council?

Obviously none of this has been decided yet. My thoughts:

1. Set guiding principles for what is eligible for inclusion, and let the hosts specify in their bids what they are prepared to run. The main guidelines for our purposes would need to be that proposed sports/disciplines not be a part of the Olympics and that reliable scorination is available. A World Games host should not try to run the whole list, any more than they do in RL. There is an established pattern of "official" and "invitational" events, but how slavishly we need to follow that is open to question.

2. That would be up to the Olympic Council through the charter amendment process.

3. I don't know. I would favour in the long-term writing a successful World Games into the Olympic Charter to avoid multiplying bureaucracies. But we're a bit far ahead for an event that is barely into planning stages for a first run.