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Free Republics
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Postby Free Republics » Tue Dec 25, 2018 12:24 pm

Union of Socialist Alpine Republics wrote:I have a question for FFR.

For team sports rosters, we usually had a maximum number of players in the previous olympics, but in these olympiads we're allowed to have as much players as we want on our rosters?

For example in the World Cup (association football) I usually have a 27 men and women roster but in the last olympiads it was shortened to 18 players. And in the latest World Bowl, I think I have over 70 players on my Gridiron roster.


There is no maximum number of players on team sports rosters.
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Banija
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Postby Banija » Wed Dec 26, 2018 8:06 pm

Banija wrote:So w/ the NSCF over and AOCAFs not starting for a couple of weeks... A little bit of down time.

I shall take advantage of that to do the Banijan Olympic Trials. Largely a domestic thread thing, of course.

Of course, this will be a big time Bnaijan event. All kinds of athletes, participation in all kinds of individual events. And trials, of course, for select national teams.

During the event, there is an opportunity to showcase the national teams of Banija participating in the Olympiad. If anyone wants to send guest teams to the Olympic Trials to play any of the Banijan Olympic teams, please, send me a telegram.

Also- there's no hard timeline to this, as it will be RPed as I go and as I have time, of course, but it will be approximately within the next week or so is when it'll start.

Banijan teams that need opponents(each team needs 2-3).

Men's Soccer
Siovanija & Teusland
Darmen

Women's Soccer
Siovanija & Teusland
Darmen

Men's Basketball
Darmen
Benjamin Mark

Women's Basketball
Darmen
Benjamin Mark

Men's Baseball
Benjamin Mark

Women's Water Polo
Benjamin Mark

Men's Gridiron
Darmen
Benjamin Mark

Women's Volleyball
Darmen
Benjamin Mark

Men's Lacrosse
Northwest Kalactin
Darmen

Women's Handball
Benjamin Mark


So I apologize that this, largely, won't get done. Time commitment issues :/

I will make sure to get those matches that I have scheduled with foreign teams scorinated and up, however, for everyone else's sake.
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Liventia
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Postby Liventia » Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:26 pm

I realise I put discussion about the Ashford records in the wrong thread (the XIII OOC thread rather than here), so reposting here for good measure.

We do still have the issue of records that exist from the very first Games, Ashford, which pre-dates xkoranate. Many of these marks were based on the then-world records (which, in many cases, still stand in athletics). Xkoranate, by comparison, is based on RL Olympic performances.

As a result, in nearly 30 athletics and at least one cycling and two swimming events, there are records that may never be broken.

I propose the following:
1. Strip Ashford results of 'Olympic record' (OR) status. The next-best mark set after Ashford will become the official OR.
2. Recognise Ashford results that are stripped of OR status as 'Olympic best' marks (OB). This is to recognise the fact that those results were generated in good faith, and will acknowledge that they still have official recognition within the NS Olympics.

This will have the effect of making many athletics events have records that are once again breakable. To have 30 athletics events with records that will never be broken under our current scorination methods is not exactly great.

Thoughts welcome.

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Kelssek
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Postby Kelssek » Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:48 am

Commonwealth of Baker Park wrote:I don't see how converting the Olympic records from the first Games w/o xkorinate to a standard that has been used with the program is different from changing over from old records set in Imperial distances to ones set in metric distances. In my research, I found that U.S. college and H.S. still use yards for their races, so their times are much different than international records that use meters. ICly that could be the RP justification for the use of these newer times.

Purely as a matter of information, this has a lot to do with the fact that lots of American pools were/are built in yards, and that country's entrenched usage of the imperial system in general. Of course, they do have "Olympic size" pools there, but metres are longer than yards so while you can put a bulkhead into 25/50m pool to make it into 25/50 yards when you need that distance, going the other way involves an excavator.

I reiterate my suggestion that we could have a set of NSOC-endorsed files where the "best" datapoint (say, 0.972, which is the relevant datapoint in the women's 100m backstroke file) is set to be the RL world record time.

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Liventia
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Postby Liventia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:44 pm

Kelssek wrote:I reiterate my suggestion that we could have a set of NSOC-endorsed files where the "best" datapoint (say, 0.972, which is the relevant datapoint in the women's 100m backstroke file) is set to be the RL world record time.

As I said in the other thread, I'm not entirely against that, but I'm not fully comfortable with doing that either especially in athletics, where a lot of standing RLWRs were probably set by dopers in the late 80s and RL performances haven't got close in the modern day.

As it stands, I don't think we need to do it for swimming. Quite a few of the existing swimming NSORs are better than the RLORs and RLWRs anyway because of that 0.02… in the xml files which leaves space for a result better than the "best" datapoint.
Last edited by Liventia on Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Todd McCloud
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Postby Todd McCloud » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:07 pm

I pointed out in my RP post that one of the records are wrong. Last Olympiad, I made two tables:

List of Olympic Records

List of Olympic Records (including Ashford records)

They'd need to be updated for the Provinsk / Novonaya results, of course. Perhaps we could consider the first list the official list, and the second one with the Ashford list as either unofficial or all-time?
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Liventia
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Postby Liventia » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:54 pm

Todd McCloud wrote:I pointed out in my RP post that one of the records are wrong.

((*Note: Ilo Yeskuviye set the 200m backstroke record, not 100m. Arnie Dagen (ETM) - Provinsk should be the sole record holder. Ilo still co-holds the 200m backstroke record. Despite the above being incorrect, I decided to roll with it RP-wise))

It's correct in the spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... J/pubhtml#

I believe FFR mis-read.

Last Olympiad, I made two tables:

List of Olympic Records

List of Olympic Records (including Ashford records)

They'd need to be updated for the Provinsk / Novonaya results, of course. Perhaps we could consider the first list the official list, and the second one with the Ashford list as either unofficial or all-time?

Not just Provinsk (and Aeropag XI) results, but also the missing records from Lasft etc (e.g. women's pole vault at 5.05 metres, which also overtakes the Ashford record). The spreadsheet, as far as I'm concerned, is 99% accurate. I won't claim it's 100% accurate because as we've seen, records do get missed, but I spent literally six hours going back through every Games, so I'm pretty confident in it. Until the wiki is updated with all the missing records, I'm against considering it 'the official list'.

But I'd be for removing the Ashford results, of course.

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Postby Savojarna » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:50 am

Liventia wrote:
Kelssek wrote:I reiterate my suggestion that we could have a set of NSOC-endorsed files where the "best" datapoint (say, 0.972, which is the relevant datapoint in the women's 100m backstroke file) is set to be the RL world record time.

As I said in the other thread, I'm not entirely against that, but I'm not fully comfortable with doing that either especially in athletics, where a lot of standing RLWRs were probably set by dopers in the late 80s and RL performances haven't got close in the modern day.

As it stands, I don't think we need to do it for swimming. Quite a few of the existing swimming NSORs are better than the RLORs and RLWRs anyway because of that 0.02… in the xml files which leaves space for a result better than the "best" datapoint.


Does that matter? I think it's perfectly fine if the times are slightly better than RL - for example, a Men's 100m WR of something like 9.52 is conceivable in real life and it may just not have happened yet. NS could be slightly faster in getting there in the same way that we were slightly faster to get to a lot of technological developments. But we could also agree to set it to smth like the "WR of the 21st century" or something like that.
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:51 am

Savojarna wrote:
Liventia wrote:As I said in the other thread, I'm not entirely against that, but I'm not fully comfortable with doing that either especially in athletics, where a lot of standing RLWRs were probably set by dopers in the late 80s and RL performances haven't got close in the modern day.

As it stands, I don't think we need to do it for swimming. Quite a few of the existing swimming NSORs are better than the RLORs and RLWRs anyway because of that 0.02… in the xml files which leaves space for a result better than the "best" datapoint.


Does that matter? I think it's perfectly fine if the times are slightly better than RL - for example, a Men's 100m WR of something like 9.52 is conceivable in real life and it may just not have happened yet. NS could be slightly faster in getting there in the same way that we were slightly faster to get to a lot of technological developments. But we could also agree to set it to smth like the "WR of the 21st century" or something like that.

^^^this

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Liventia
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Postby Liventia » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:27 am

On a completely separate note, anyone who:
1. Has some prior hosting experience;
2. Hasn't yet been put off by the amount of work FFR (and all Olympic hosts, for that matter) is having to do; and
3. Is interested in adding a Winter Olympics to their hosting CV,
please feel free to telegram me.

I'm planning a bid for the next Winter Games around October/November time, and while I'm perfectly happy to go solo, anyone who would like to put themselves forward as a potential co-host is welcome to do so via TG.

*Please note that expressions of interest to co-host are simply that and I may still opt to bid solo ultimately. But I will consider all offers.

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Kelssek
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Postby Kelssek » Thu Jan 17, 2019 7:48 pm

We're kind of shading more into a question of whether we're scorinating based on correct data, and what we should consider to be correct. Perhaps the simplest solution is to just handwave the Ashford records away, saving the trouble of messing with the sport files. If people insist on IC justification it could be due to measurement or equipment errors or something like that.

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Cassadaigua
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Postby Cassadaigua » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:14 pm

The Ashford records should not just be wiped away. They were statistical feats that were fairly accomplished during that Olympiad and should always be acknowledged if we are going to keep a record book of this.

However, do we put in the "asterisk" for them? Sure. I actually like Liventia's proposal as still acknowledging them as "Olympic best", even if they will no longer be considered our records.
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Postby Electrum » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:20 am

I would support a wholesale update to the xkoranate files as a whole, which can be made publicly available to the community (and distributed by CH if he sees fit). They were based on the Beijing results (?), and so much has happened in the intervening years / games that it will eventually become impossible to set new records since the way we generate results is based on the old data set. This of course, would be a massive undertaking, but it could be doable with some community effort.
Last edited by Electrum on Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Sat Jan 19, 2019 5:56 am

Electrum wrote:I would support a wholesale update to the xkoranate files as a whole, which can be made publicly available to the community (and distributed by CH if he sees fit). They were based on the Beijing results (?), and so much has happened in the intervening years / games that it will eventually become impossible to set new records since the way we generate results is based on the old data set. This of course, would be a massive undertaking, but it could be doable with some community effort.

I agree it needs to happen, however it really cannot be left up to one person to do most/all of the work.

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Postby Kelssek » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:11 am

This is a good discussion and in light of where it's going, here's my thoughts at this point.

1. All things considered there is probably not a need to update the xkoranate sport files in the timed events. Many of our Olympic, non-Ashford records are already better than RL world records and it makes no sense to move further and further away from reality in this regard.

2. I do not agree with the notion that it's a problem if records stand for a long time and are not broken often. They are not easily or frequently broken in real life for the very simple reason that a) it's hard b) in 2019 the marginal gains of better training, equipment, sport science etc. are small, c) some existing records were set under different rules (when swimming allowed those "sharksuits") or when doping control was less stringent.

3. A different issue is that the records may become at some point technically impossible to break due to the scorinators. I am now inclined to think that this is realistic and not really a problem - see point 2.

4. We should acknowledge the Ashford records. The issue seems to be about "official" recognition. I am ambivalent about the move to set the Ashford records apart. Another suggestion I don't think has yet been made is to handle it ICly, where media reports refer to "post-Ashford" bests.

Separately, since we are now talking about this, the area where I can say xkoranate does need an update is in scorination formats. In particular, 3x3 basketball, shooting, and weightlifting, which are new sports and/or have adopted new formats. Whereas it's fairly simple to make a sport file for skateboarding, for those 3 in particular we probably need CH to look into it.

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Postby Apox » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:12 am

Electrum wrote:I would support a wholesale update to the xkoranate files as a whole, which can be made publicly available to the community (and distributed by CH if he sees fit). They were based on the Beijing results (?), and so much has happened in the intervening years / games that it will eventually become impossible to set new records since the way we generate results is based on the old data set. This of course, would be a massive undertaking, but it could be doable with some community effort.


A github could be set up which could host the "sports" files of xkoranate, which could then be downloaded and replace the current sports section in xkoranate. This way the xkoranate files could be a community updated effort and the process of having new sports added into the db could be done easier. I don't know if the current license for xkoranate will allow this or if that's a bit of a faux pas, don't want to take any credit for xkoranate away from CH.
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Postby Electrum » Sat Jan 19, 2019 4:10 pm

Kelssek wrote:This is a good discussion and in light of where it's going, here's my thoughts at this point.

1. All things considered there is probably not a need to update the xkoranate sport files in the timed events. Many of our Olympic, non-Ashford records are already better than RL world records and it makes no sense to move further and further away from reality in this regard.

2. I do not agree with the notion that it's a problem if records stand for a long time and are not broken often. They are not easily or frequently broken in real life for the very simple reason that a) it's hard b) in 2019 the marginal gains of better training, equipment, sport science etc. are small, c) some existing records were set under different rules (when swimming allowed those "sharksuits") or when doping control was less stringent.

3. A different issue is that the records may become at some point technically impossible to break due to the scorinators. I am now inclined to think that this is realistic and not really a problem - see point 2.

4. We should acknowledge the Ashford records. The issue seems to be about "official" recognition. I am ambivalent about the move to set the Ashford records apart. Another suggestion I don't think has yet been made is to handle it ICly, where media reports refer to "post-Ashford" bests.

Separately, since we are now talking about this, the area where I can say xkoranate does need an update is in scorination formats. In particular, 3x3 basketball, shooting, and weightlifting, which are new sports and/or have adopted new formats. Whereas it's fairly simple to make a sport file for skateboarding, for those 3 in particular we probably need CH to look into it.


1. Yes and many are not. There are a lot of events where the real record is about 3 - a few dozen seconds faster than our own records (sometimes including, and sometimes excluding the Ashford results), which like I said, is problematic. Of course, I am not advocating for changes to sports files which don't need it.

2. I concede this point insofar this is true for some events, but like I said, some events are way off the mark as to where they should be.

4. I like the way FFR put it as pre and post Ashford.

5. As part of my wholesale updates, I was also thinking of updating sports which had changed their scoring formats over the years, and of course, the addition of new sports. As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one who's created new files for the new Winter olympics events such as slopestyle, big air, and some of those are already outdated with new scoring formats. I do recall CH updating some files for new formats in the most recent Aeropag Olympics, but I'm pretty sure he hasn't released them publicly yet.

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Liventia
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Postby Liventia » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:54 am

Liventia wrote:On a completely separate note, anyone who:
1. Has some prior hosting experience;
2. Hasn't yet been put off by the amount of work FFR (and all Olympic hosts, for that matter) is having to do; and
3. Is interested in adding a Winter Olympics to their hosting CV,
please feel free to telegram me.

I'm planning a bid for the next Winter Games around October/November time, and while I'm perfectly happy to go solo, anyone who would like to put themselves forward as a potential co-host is welcome to do so via TG.

*Please note that expressions of interest to co-host are simply that and I may still opt to bid solo ultimately. But I will consider all offers.

I've already had one or two people message me about this, but if you haven't yet and are interested in a winter Olympics cohost thingamajig, please TG me or PM me on the NS Sports Discord (@Aels). I'm looking at bidding to host the Games towards the end of the year, around November time.

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Todd McCloud
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Postby Todd McCloud » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:03 pm

Considering the Thirteenth Olympiad is complete, I've updated the All-Time Medal Table

Liventia, I'll update the Olympic Records in the coming weeks.
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Postby Wochaystein » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:20 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Northwest Kalactin wrote:Speaking of this if we want to have a September Olympics someone should bid

Unless FR's plans have changed their will be an Olympics in December. Their's no rush, I want an Olympics as much as you but I can't bid for it as I don't have any hosting experience or time. Obviously the people with the experience are busy, so we'll just have to be patient.


What months do the Winter Olympics usually take place?
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Sat Feb 16, 2019 2:42 pm

Wochaystein wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Unless FR's plans have changed their will be an Olympics in December. Their's no rush, I want an Olympics as much as you but I can't bid for it as I don't have any hosting experience or time. Obviously the people with the experience are busy, so we'll just have to be patient.


What months do the Winter Olympics usually take place?


Whenever we find a suitable host and they have time to run it. It needs an experienced host with a lot of time on their hands.
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Liventia
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Postby Liventia » Sun Feb 17, 2019 9:45 am

Wochaystein wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Unless FR's plans have changed their will be an Olympics in December. Their's no rush, I want an Olympics as much as you but I can't bid for it as I don't have any hosting experience or time. Obviously the people with the experience are busy, so we'll just have to be patient.


What months do the Winter Olympics usually take place?

Our Games normally correspond to the RL Northern Hemisphere seasons, with the caveat that there needs to be a reliable, trustworthy host for each event. Therefore they do sometimes have to move, thus us having just completed a Summer Olympics (delayed from last August or so) in February.

The Winter Olympics are normally held in Jan/Feb/Mar, although this year it will probably be some time from September to December. There's nothing stopping someone from bidding now to hold it in March or April, except people will be burnt out from the Summer Olympics and probably wouldn't take too kindly to such a bid.

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West Phoenicia
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Postby West Phoenicia » Thu Jul 11, 2019 1:48 pm

https://inside.fei.org/news/fei-general ... le-changes

This is actually a good read. It is in regards to reforms in Equestrian for Tokyo 2020 and beyond. It list the changes being made. Some include 3 riders instead of 4, no longer a drop score as well as some changes that doesn't concern rp.
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