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Better Business Bureau [Feedback & Advice]

A meeting place where national storefronts can tout their wares and discuss trade. [In character]

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Machina Haruspex
Minister
 
Posts: 3111
Founded: Jan 13, 2005
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Machina Haruspex » Thu Oct 22, 2020 5:01 pm

Neu Engollon wrote:
Machina Haruspex wrote:Is there a GE&T discord? I wasnt sure if this was a thing yet or had been.


There's a Better Business Bureau advice thread. ;)

Yeah...
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Unlimited Cleaning Works
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Founded: Oct 29, 2020
Father Knows Best State

Postby Unlimited Cleaning Works » Thu Oct 29, 2020 1:43 pm

I am looking for feedback for this
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=493566
Unlimited Cleaning Works Corporation:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=493566
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Unknown to Grime, Nor known to Germs
Have withstood exhaustion to clean many rooms
Yet, those hands will never purge anything
So as I pray, Unlimited Cleaning Works.

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Champagne Socialist Sharifistan
Senator
 
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Founded: Dec 08, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Champagne Socialist Sharifistan » Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:46 pm

How best to advertise a private military contractor?
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Naribobastan
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 23
Founded: Jul 21, 2020
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Naribobastan » Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:06 pm

Maltropia wrote:

So you're making a storefront. You have a product you want to sell and you have a name for your company, but you don't know how to market it. You don't know what to put into your opening post to grab people's attention, or how to describe your product so that it doesn't read like an instructions manual written entirely in pig Latin. You like what you have but you don't know where to go from there. Fortunately, there are people who do.

The NS Better Business Bureau is comprised of members of the GE&T community who are experienced in storefront design and everything that goes into it, and are willing to aid new players in adjusting to this community. They are here to help you get the best mileage out of your storefront. In other words: you are the Better Business Bureau. If you have a question ― any question ― about how to improve your GE&Ting, this is the place to ask; if you want to provide advice, tips, tricks, or critique, this is the place to do it.

This thread exists because we believe that the best resource the GE&T community has is itself; that it is GE&Ters who most want to see this subforum reach its fullest potential and have the knowledge and ability to get it there. The Better Business Bureau strives for this, as only the GE&T community can. Collectively, the Better Business Bureau (and this community as a whole) comes packed with:

Years of experience in storefront-running and product design;

Diverse areas of interest and expertise to provide better and wider coverage;

Professional and helpful feedback on every aspect of GE&T;

Roguish wit and dazzling good looks.

How does it work? It's surprisingly straightforward. Ask your question and get a response. Post your storefront and get feedback and critique. When you do, keep in mind that the more you give us to work off the more we can help you.

Want to help out? Anyone is welcome to offer advice in this thread (and even outside it!) and free to disagree with what others have said. This isn't an echo chamber, and varied advice is encouraged. That said, please try and keep things professional; this is not a "chat thread," but a new incarnation of an advice and assistance thread. Players of all types who want to see better businesses in GE&T should feel free to participate.

Wondering why this opening post seems so short? That's because it's not a guide, and there's only so much that needs to be said. The last version of this idea waxed lyrical and detoured down memory lane, which missed the point a bit. This thread is to provide help, suggestions, feedback and critique. The important stuff comes later. Happy GE&Ting!






Previous versions:

Other useful links:

we will have this help for our people if they want to make a company

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Neu Engollon
N&I RP Mentor
 
Posts: 6672
Founded: Aug 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Neu Engollon » Sun Nov 08, 2020 12:53 pm

Naribobastan wrote:
Maltropia wrote:

So you're making a storefront. You have a product you want to sell and you have a name for your company, but you don't know how to market it. You don't know what to put into your opening post to grab people's attention, or how to describe your product so that it doesn't read like an instructions manual written entirely in pig Latin. You like what you have but you don't know where to go from there. Fortunately, there are people who do.

The NS Better Business Bureau is comprised of members of the GE&T community who are experienced in storefront design and everything that goes into it, and are willing to aid new players in adjusting to this community. They are here to help you get the best mileage out of your storefront. In other words: you are the Better Business Bureau. If you have a question ― any question ― about how to improve your GE&Ting, this is the place to ask; if you want to provide advice, tips, tricks, or critique, this is the place to do it.

This thread exists because we believe that the best resource the GE&T community has is itself; that it is GE&Ters who most want to see this subforum reach its fullest potential and have the knowledge and ability to get it there. The Better Business Bureau strives for this, as only the GE&T community can. Collectively, the Better Business Bureau (and this community as a whole) comes packed with:

Years of experience in storefront-running and product design;

Diverse areas of interest and expertise to provide better and wider coverage;

Professional and helpful feedback on every aspect of GE&T;

Roguish wit and dazzling good looks.

How does it work? It's surprisingly straightforward. Ask your question and get a response. Post your storefront and get feedback and critique. When you do, keep in mind that the more you give us to work off the more we can help you.

Want to help out? Anyone is welcome to offer advice in this thread (and even outside it!) and free to disagree with what others have said. This isn't an echo chamber, and varied advice is encouraged. That said, please try and keep things professional; this is not a "chat thread," but a new incarnation of an advice and assistance thread. Players of all types who want to see better businesses in GE&T should feel free to participate.

Wondering why this opening post seems so short? That's because it's not a guide, and there's only so much that needs to be said. The last version of this idea waxed lyrical and detoured down memory lane, which missed the point a bit. This thread is to provide help, suggestions, feedback and critique. The important stuff comes later. Happy GE&Ting!






Previous versions:

Other useful links:

we will have this help for our people if they want to make a company


They are great tips. Really, search any of his posts for some solid advice and you can't go wrong.
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Langenia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6784
Founded: Apr 22, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Langenia » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:48 pm

When you have a limited amount of time to work on a storefront, is it better to draw your own images for the products or can we use other people's images from other sites as long as we credit them?
LANGENIA
Fatherland, Unity, and Valor
Overview|Armed Forces|Politics|Embassy Program|LangenArPort| Incumbent President: Nicolas Furia
Langenia is an MT-early PMT nation located in northern South America, the result of Spain not successfully colonizing the region but leaving its mark. Some NS stats are used. We outpollo PolloHut.
NEWS: Following Insaani coup that removes royal family and installs new hardline Islamist regime, Insaanistan fights Christian countries and oppresses non-Muslims. Arms embargo imposed by Aragon, along with sanctions on regime officials and combat operations.| OAS meeting to take place soon.| Langenia distances from Cassadia.| Vaccinations continue, COVID restrictions to be eased.| AeroLangenia begins international flights again.| This is LCNA.

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Romextly
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9792
Founded: Nov 10, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Romextly » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:49 pm

Langenia wrote:When you have a limited amount of time to work on a storefront, is it better to draw your own images for the products or can we use other people's images from other sites as long as we credit them?

I just put them in. We don't need to credit it

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Langenia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6784
Founded: Apr 22, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Langenia » Thu Nov 12, 2020 3:51 pm

Romextly wrote:
Langenia wrote:When you have a limited amount of time to work on a storefront, is it better to draw your own images for the products or can we use other people's images from other sites as long as we credit them?

I just put them in. We don't need to credit it


I see. What do my fellow NSers think?
LANGENIA
Fatherland, Unity, and Valor
Overview|Armed Forces|Politics|Embassy Program|LangenArPort| Incumbent President: Nicolas Furia
Langenia is an MT-early PMT nation located in northern South America, the result of Spain not successfully colonizing the region but leaving its mark. Some NS stats are used. We outpollo PolloHut.
NEWS: Following Insaani coup that removes royal family and installs new hardline Islamist regime, Insaanistan fights Christian countries and oppresses non-Muslims. Arms embargo imposed by Aragon, along with sanctions on regime officials and combat operations.| OAS meeting to take place soon.| Langenia distances from Cassadia.| Vaccinations continue, COVID restrictions to be eased.| AeroLangenia begins international flights again.| This is LCNA.

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Neu Engollon
N&I RP Mentor
 
Posts: 6672
Founded: Aug 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Neu Engollon » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:00 pm

Langenia wrote:
Romextly wrote:I just put them in. We don't need to credit it


I see. What do my fellow NSers think?


I think you were wise to keep canvassing for more advice.

There is a draw to using ready made images, but you have to be careful. They are most often copyrighted material. Sometimes it might help to put a disclaimer in a spoiler or small footnote that you are using them for fair use/parody without any profit to yourself, maybe even throwing a credit to the original photographer or brand that created it, but the site is still liable if the IP holders still go after it. You would need to be ready to yank them fast in the case of a C&D (Cease and Desist) letter from an attorney or the actual creator. It is a grey area, for sure, but if you can create your own images - please, please, please, try to do so.
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Langenia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6784
Founded: Apr 22, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Langenia » Thu Nov 12, 2020 5:02 pm

Neu Engollon wrote:
Langenia wrote:
I see. What do my fellow NSers think?


I think you were wise to keep canvassing for more advice.

There is a draw to using ready made images, but you have to be careful. They are most often copyrighted material. Sometimes it might help to put a disclaimer in a spoiler or small footnote that you are using them for fair use/parody without any profit to yourself, maybe even throwing a credit to the original photographer or brand that created it, but the site is still liable if the IP holders still go after it. You would need to be ready to yank them fast in the case of a C&D (Cease and Desist) letter from an attorney or the actual creator. It is a grey area, for sure, but if you can create your own images - please, please, please, try to do so.


Thank you, appreciate that.
LANGENIA
Fatherland, Unity, and Valor
Overview|Armed Forces|Politics|Embassy Program|LangenArPort| Incumbent President: Nicolas Furia
Langenia is an MT-early PMT nation located in northern South America, the result of Spain not successfully colonizing the region but leaving its mark. Some NS stats are used. We outpollo PolloHut.
NEWS: Following Insaani coup that removes royal family and installs new hardline Islamist regime, Insaanistan fights Christian countries and oppresses non-Muslims. Arms embargo imposed by Aragon, along with sanctions on regime officials and combat operations.| OAS meeting to take place soon.| Langenia distances from Cassadia.| Vaccinations continue, COVID restrictions to be eased.| AeroLangenia begins international flights again.| This is LCNA.

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Marquesan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1788
Founded: Oct 21, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Marquesan » Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:17 pm

Langenia wrote:
Neu Engollon wrote:
I think you were wise to keep canvassing for more advice.

There is a draw to using ready made images, but you have to be careful. They are most often copyrighted material. Sometimes it might help to put a disclaimer in a spoiler or small footnote that you are using them for fair use/parody without any profit to yourself, maybe even throwing a credit to the original photographer or brand that created it, but the site is still liable if the IP holders still go after it. You would need to be ready to yank them fast in the case of a C&D (Cease and Desist) letter from an attorney or the actual creator. It is a grey area, for sure, but if you can create your own images - please, please, please, try to do so.


Thank you, appreciate that.


I agree with NE; if it's practical to make your own images or commission someone to draw them for you, that's obviously better, but not everybody's an artist and there are lots and lots of images in the public domain. I wouldn't waste a moment feeling bad about using an image displayed on Popular Mechanics website or something similar. Would I lightly use something from Deviantart? No. Not without permission of the maker. Am I going to pay $40 for a Turbosquid rendering just so I can use it on NS and for no other purpose whatsoever? No. There's a balance to this; I think if you're careful to use images you're relatively sure are in the public domain, renderings released by a defense contractor of a concept for a possible future vehicle/aircraft/ship, etc, you shouldn't run into any trouble. Don't disrespect the property of artists whose careers hinge on paid patronage in short, but also, take a breath. It's just a game. If you get a message from someone asking you to take down their work, do so without delay. That's my advice. If I received any such notification for my storefront, I'd take it down. If I found that one of the pieces of art for the storefront was taken down for copyright, I would make sure not to use that same image twice.
Last edited by Marquesan on Thu Nov 12, 2020 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Crookfur
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10750
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Crookfur » Fri Nov 13, 2020 1:54 am

The other thing to bear in mind is that if you use a line drawing/pixel art of something particularly in the military and aviation fields is that there is a good chance that the original artist has been or is active on NS in someway or at least will be known personally to some folks on NS and thier stuff will likely have already been used on a storefront.

Ultimately wither you do your own art or use existing photos/concept/game art will depend on why you want a storefront and what you want to achieve. If you just like creating stuff and want somewhere to show it off then naturally you probably want to do your art. On the other hand if you just want a cookie cutter storefront so you can say you have one to justify some rp element then yeah not much point in using anything bar generic images. Naturally there is a lot of ground between these poles.

Don't be scared of giving drawing a try, it's like any other hobby if you find you like it, then you will get better and get closer to bringing what you have in your head to life. If you find its a chore and not for you then no harm done and you can move on.
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Gandoor
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9647
Founded: Sep 23, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Gandoor » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:41 pm

So does anyone else periodically 'clear out' their storefronts (for people that do things like have lists of locations or whatever) of ex-nations? Like it can be kinda a pain in the ass to do at times and it might suck if a CTE'd nation comes back and sees that I've removed them and goes 'Why did you remove me?' (although that's never happened cause I doubt people will check this shit) but I just do it because I prefer to only have extant nations listed on my storefronts and, in the case of the GBC storefront, I only have limited space available (cause it's supposed to be TV channels with timeslots and there are only twenty-four hours in a day lol) and I'd rather not have to close it up/move it to a new thread because I ran out of space. (I also do it to make sure I don't hit the 60K character limit per post in that thread cause I was an idiot and didn't split the OP into multiple replies to have more space, but c'est la vie)
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Neu Engollon
N&I RP Mentor
 
Posts: 6672
Founded: Aug 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Neu Engollon » Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:45 pm

Gandoor wrote:So does anyone else periodically 'clear out' their storefronts (for people that do things like have lists of locations or whatever) of ex-nations? Like it can be kinda a pain in the ass to do at times and it might suck if a CTE'd nation comes back and sees that I've removed them and goes 'Why did you remove me?' (although that's never happened cause I doubt people will check this shit) but I just do it because I prefer to only have extant nations listed on my storefronts and, in the case of the GBC storefront, I only have limited space available (cause it's supposed to be TV channels with timeslots and there are only twenty-four hours in a day lol) and I'd rather not have to close it up/move it to a new thread because I ran out of space. (I also do it to make sure I don't hit the 60K character limit per post in that thread cause I was an idiot and didn't split the OP into multiple replies to have more space, but c'est la vie)



That is a very interesting point. Personally, I take it on a case by case basis. For a new nation that CTE'd years ago within a couple months after formation, and posted a handful of times, yeah, I kick them to the curb. I don't list them on my retail locations, or customer lists, etc, when I'm reformatting storefronts. For a nation who has been long established and has been a regular RPer with a high post count, I give it a second thought. More often that not, they will come back at some point. Then there's gray shades in-between.

Ultimately, what's the harm? They come back after an extended hiatus and out of all unfinished business, go after you for cutting them off the list? You give them an 'Oops, sorry. You disappeared for a long time, so I moved on...but sure, I'll re-instate you.' All should be forgiven. Hell, I've had players come back after a long ago CTE, re-applying to my storefronts after forgetting their previous visit to them.
Last edited by Neu Engollon on Mon Nov 16, 2020 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Syrche
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 371
Founded: Sep 05, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Syrche » Wed Nov 18, 2020 6:00 am

My streaming service “VideoStream” isn’t gaining as much traction as i had hoped it would. I wondered if you guys could give me some insights. I am aware there is still some work to do as far as formatting. Maybe it’s just too bulky? Thoughts?

Link is in my SIGNATURE.

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Common Territories
Senator
 
Posts: 4325
Founded: Nov 08, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Common Territories » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:14 pm

Gandoor wrote:So does anyone else periodically 'clear out' their storefronts (for people that do things like have lists of locations or whatever) of ex-nations? Like it can be kinda a pain in the ass to do at times and it might suck if a CTE'd nation comes back and sees that I've removed them and goes 'Why did you remove me?' (although that's never happened cause I doubt people will check this shit) but I just do it because I prefer to only have extant nations listed on my storefronts and, in the case of the GBC storefront, I only have limited space available (cause it's supposed to be TV channels with timeslots and there are only twenty-four hours in a day lol) and I'd rather not have to close it up/move it to a new thread because I ran out of space. (I also do it to make sure I don't hit the 60K character limit per post in that thread cause I was an idiot and didn't split the OP into multiple replies to have more space, but c'est la vie)


As someone who's had, removed, and currently has CTE'd people on his product list who're third party (I retail their products), I simply remove them based on a few factors. First being if I need room. If I need room for something (im dead close to the character limit) they're the first to go. I've actually done this once preemptively. The only other reason why I've removed is because it was on whim. They're gone, I don't care that much for their product, and it gives room for others who want the space in the future. I don't think I've had any come back and ask why they're removed, but if I had, I'd tell them that they CTEd, the room was needed, and I do what I wish with my product listings. Doesn't mean they can't be re-added or anything either.

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Mohit Verma
Civilian
 
Posts: 1
Founded: Dec 03, 2020
Ex-Nation

Postby Mohit Verma » Sat Dec 05, 2020 2:59 am

While the BBB cannot force a company to do anything, the BBB does offer consumers valuable insight into companies and may be able to resolve issues through arbitration.

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Lisander
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1613
Founded: Feb 09, 2013
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Lisander » Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:26 pm

Sorry if it's miscategorized.

I keep thinking about IG-realism when trying to think in my national industries. I want to use my In-Game stats when it comes to Roleplay. I know that using the stats isn't needed if one doesn't want to. But, I mean, what else could I use them for? At least I want to have something to brag about it.

So these are my current Industry Stats on this moment:

Arms Manufacturing: 12,932.51 (Top 10%)
Automobile Manufacturing: 329.91 (Top 55%)
Basket Weaving: 5,361.05 (Top 10%)
Beverage Sales: -5,48 (Top 76%)
Book Publishing: 10,314.67 (Top 6%)
Cheese Exports: 2,177.41 (Top 36%)
Furniture Restoration: 5,773.44 (Top 6%)
Gambling: 360.26 (Top 53%)
Information Technology: 62,419.16 (Top 0,6%)
Insurance: -19.75 (Top 99%)
Mining: -24,29 (Top 99%)
Pizza Delivery: -19.55 (Top 99%)
Retail: -7.94 (Top 85%)
Timber Woodchipping: -18.97 (Top 99%)
Trout Fishing: -3.46 (Top 75%)

And these are other stats I'm considering for thinking about profitable endeavours:

Agriculture: 4,330.08 (Top 18%)
Manufacturing: 18,623.48 (Top 10%)
Black Market: 805bi L$ (Top 34%)
Scientific Advancement: 602.15 (Top 2%)
Tourism: 2,567.29 (Top 0.8%)

Judging by these stats, how can you see Lisander economically and what kind of enterprises would be possible? Do you think Lisander could build its own weapons, planes, cars and stuff like that? What kinds of products would you buy from Lisander?
Last edited by Lisander on Thu Jan 07, 2021 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Neu Engollon
N&I RP Mentor
 
Posts: 6672
Founded: Aug 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Neu Engollon » Fri Jan 08, 2021 12:51 pm

Based off those NS stats there are very little limits to what you can produce, if focus was put on certain sectors. Players calling you out on economic realism would also likely be calling you out on using NS GP stats in the first place, so...
Ultimately, I'd say just do whatever interests you most.

If you want to stick to what your stats are telling you...

Your strongest suits seem to be in the information technology and science fields. That could translate well to both the civilian and military sectors.

Your manufacturing and agriculture are decent, but probably not alluring enough beyond your closer trading partners and neighbors. Especially aquatic agriculture, which seems to be just enough to sustain yourself, but probably not much more. Same with domestic grain and livestock farming.

Your raw resources are limited if mining is that low. That effects most manufacturing sectors if you rely on importing a lot of mineral resources.

You probably would have a moderate domestic automobile manufacturing industry, but wouldn't do well on exporting Lisanderian autos.

So yeah, technology, pharmaceuticals, and tourism are your best bets. Your need to import resources would be comfortably offset by your ability to export premium tech products.
Last edited by Neu Engollon on Fri Jan 08, 2021 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Manifour
Political Columnist
 
Posts: 2
Founded: Jan 15, 2021
Ex-Nation

Postby New Manifour » Fri Jan 15, 2021 10:37 pm

Ok, Since it sincerely noted, globally. That will make this proposition of Challenging Count, Is more interesting when it would be done for at least what I know.

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Neu Engollon
N&I RP Mentor
 
Posts: 6672
Founded: Aug 13, 2012
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Neu Engollon » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:34 am

New Manifour wrote:Ok, Since it sincerely noted, globally. That will make this proposition of Challenging Count, Is more interesting when it would be done for at least what I know.


What is this about now? Did you post to the right thread?
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Please check my Factbook for answers, TG me for everything else.
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Langenia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6784
Founded: Apr 22, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Langenia » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:35 am

Is it better to have applications on a storefront or no?
LANGENIA
Fatherland, Unity, and Valor
Overview|Armed Forces|Politics|Embassy Program|LangenArPort| Incumbent President: Nicolas Furia
Langenia is an MT-early PMT nation located in northern South America, the result of Spain not successfully colonizing the region but leaving its mark. Some NS stats are used. We outpollo PolloHut.
NEWS: Following Insaani coup that removes royal family and installs new hardline Islamist regime, Insaanistan fights Christian countries and oppresses non-Muslims. Arms embargo imposed by Aragon, along with sanctions on regime officials and combat operations.| OAS meeting to take place soon.| Langenia distances from Cassadia.| Vaccinations continue, COVID restrictions to be eased.| AeroLangenia begins international flights again.| This is LCNA.

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Romextly
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9792
Founded: Nov 10, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Romextly » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:47 am

Langenia wrote:Is it better to have applications on a storefront or no?

what do you mean?

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Langenia
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6784
Founded: Apr 22, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Langenia » Sat Jan 16, 2021 9:56 am

Romextly wrote:
Langenia wrote:Is it better to have applications on a storefront or no?

what do you mean?


By applications I mean where the customer simply fills out a form saying who they are and what they want, like on your Dragon Firepower.
LANGENIA
Fatherland, Unity, and Valor
Overview|Armed Forces|Politics|Embassy Program|LangenArPort| Incumbent President: Nicolas Furia
Langenia is an MT-early PMT nation located in northern South America, the result of Spain not successfully colonizing the region but leaving its mark. Some NS stats are used. We outpollo PolloHut.
NEWS: Following Insaani coup that removes royal family and installs new hardline Islamist regime, Insaanistan fights Christian countries and oppresses non-Muslims. Arms embargo imposed by Aragon, along with sanctions on regime officials and combat operations.| OAS meeting to take place soon.| Langenia distances from Cassadia.| Vaccinations continue, COVID restrictions to be eased.| AeroLangenia begins international flights again.| This is LCNA.

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Romextly
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9792
Founded: Nov 10, 2018
Corporate Police State

Postby Romextly » Sat Jan 16, 2021 10:01 am

Langenia wrote:
Romextly wrote:what do you mean?


By applications I mean where the customer simply fills out a form saying who they are and what they want, like on your Dragon Firepower.

For me it's fone as most do have it. However there are some without those, such as the Allenean defense exports, though it is generally more confusing and more people are turned away

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