Global Economics and Trade Help Desk and Q&A

[Prosorusiya]

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=400399&p=30874379#p30874379

Having the damnedest time getting the table here to play nice... it seems to not want to be spaces close to text the way I want it to. Any hints? Also, over all thoughts of the content?

[Aquitayne]

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=400399&p=30874379#p30874379

Having the damnedest time getting the table here to play nice... it seems to not want to be spaces close to text the way I want it to. Any hints? Also, over all thoughts of the content?

Use this code, I fixed the table for you:

Code: Select all

[table][tr][td]Type[/td]
[td]Number[/td]
[td]Model[/td]
[td]Origin[/td][/tr]

[tr][td]Medium Range Jetliner[/td][td]3[/td][td][url=http://goo.gl/j5iDtz]Tu-154B-2[/url][/td][td]Soviet Union[/td][/tr]
[tr][td]Short Range Jetliner[/td][td]2[/td][td][url=http://goo.gl/zbfS4s]Yak-42D[/url][/td][td]Soviet Union[/td][/tr][/table]

You need to make sure the subjects in each row, TR, are next to each other in the formatting, otherwise it doesn't come out right. The yellow font color isn't doing you any favors, I'd darken it to a blue or something more neutral. Otherwise you're off to a great start!

[Torontonian Canada]

It's not often that I come here to ask a question, but I am wondering of the feasibility (when applied to NationStates RP realms) of the following scenario: at the moment, I roleplay my government as in debt (I don't have to, but it's fun). I have estimated that there are more than 300 nations that are conducting their (the private institutions or for a few the public also) trade and finance (physical and through financial instruments) using my currency, and also as their government reserves holding in my currency, the Quertz russling or Quertz for short. Based on that estimate I should be able to use something along the line of a quantitative easing method as the US Fed did in real life and get away with it easily, multiple times, as institutions and individuals residing in these nations would gobble up my currency available to be bought anyway (for a wee while, I haven't storytelled or roleplayed anything of that sort also)

Okay, I can do the above multiple time, but wouldn't it be considered as a form of cheating? I can simply print out money after money, create 'paper' wealth, and none of the negative effect would apply to me because of my unique situation at the moment. I wanna hear some of your opinions, thank you!

-Donata

Edit: and even if you are unsure of what I am talking about, don't be worried to post your opinion forward! There's no right or wrong as far as I am concerned

Another edit: I realise the unique situation of my nation in character wise, and that very few other nations can get away with doing anything like this. This is the reason why I wanted to ask the opinions of the long time NS economic roleplayers: it's not a question of whether it can be done, but whether it is ethical/right (in your opinion) or not.

Its both Ethically right, and feasible, but, that having been said, your credit rating in the Central Bank, AND the value of your currency in the future will drop significantly.

[Yohannes]

You see, that is the thing (why I say it's kinda cheating if I try to attempt that). With my nation IC wise, none of that will happen because lots of people, institutions, etc. would probably realistically take the opportunity presented to gobble up my currency (and this happen in a sort of simulation, on the background (like when we unpaused a Europa Universalis or Victoria 2 PC sort of games) kind of thing, if you are IC wise connecting your market/economy/company/etc. with me) because realistically these entities (or people) in these nations will benefit from it (more money for them in the future, the most basic way of putting it) and because they know they will get that benefit (good security). And the number of nations and size (even if everyone is RPing with real life earth number, though I doubt the majority of people out there use the Belgium population or Switzerland population as their capped population) meant that there will be no shortage of demand anytime soon.

In fact, assuming I am not going to be hit by the bus on my way home tomorrow (...), I will still be able to RP Yohannes and connect my nation IC-wise financially with more new nations (another thing about NationStates... the constant supply of newcomers to the game, unlike in real life where no 5 new nations - legit played not alternate/puppet - pop out every day or something).

This is another reason why I did say I am in a unique position to be able to do this, but I doubt it is an ethical thing to do. It can be done, but it is unfair. It's not even a 'what if', it can be done. But is it fair? I don't think so. And whilst a part of me is excited about trying it out, another part of me is a bit iffy. I can hide it from everyone (no need for me to ask this publicly, and I know that some ancient NationStates roleplayers - I think I would probably know who you are hehe - will probably call me out, either using their proxy nations or directly, if I did try to exploit this)

Fear of being called out a pyramid scheme scamming repo man aside I feel like the whole thing isn't fair. And there's always others in the future who, perhaps, under the right circumstances, will be presented with the opportunity to do the same thing, and I hope by posting this here now, no one (if NationStates will be here 10 years from now, which I hope it will be) will try to pull off anything like this because they can see someone in the past saying it's not a good idea.

Another interesting thing: I know a couple of nations (can be counted by fingers) who can pull this off realistically or semi realistically at the moment, though it's a good thing they are not doing it

Anyway, I am talking with you on Discord at the moment anyway, I'll explain there

[Aquitayne]

You see, that is the thing (why I say it's kinda cheating if I try to attempt that). With my nation IC wise, none of that will happen because lots of people, institutions, etc. would probably realistically take the opportunity presented to gobble up my currency (and this happen in a sort of simulation, on the background (like when we unpaused a Europa Universalis or Victoria 2 PC sort of games) kind of thing, if you are IC wise connecting your market/economy/company/etc. with me) because realistically these entities (or people) in these nations will benefit from it (more money for them in the future, the most basic way of putting it) and because they know they will get that benefit (good security)

This is another reason why I did say I am in a unique position to be able to do this, but I doubt it is an ethical thing to do. It can be done, but it is unfair. It's not even a 'what if', it can be done. But is it fair? I don't think so. And whilst a part of me is excited about trying it out, another part of me is a bit iffy. I can hide it from everyone (no need for me to ask this publicly, and I know that some ancient NationStates roleplayers - I think I would probably know who you are hehe - will probably call me out, either using their proxy nations or directly, if I did try to exploit this)

Fear of being called out a pyramid scheme scamming repo man aside I feel like the whole thing isn't fair. And there's always others in the future who, perhaps, under the right circumstances, will be presented with the opportunity to do the same thing (I know a couple of nations (can be counted by fingers) who can pull this off realistically or semi realistically at the moment, though it's a good thing they are not doing it )

Anyway, I am talking with you on Discord at the moment anyway, I'll explain there

I'm not an economist by any stretch of the imagination, but you're pretty much entirely correct from a valuation standpoint. We can, for all intents and purposes, equate the Yohannesian Quertz to the US dollar, in a NS-to-RL example. You are, save for Lambda Financial, really the only banking firm on the site to have as much exposure and reach as you do. With that comes the inherent investments in the very lucrative, stable, and valuable Quertz russling that would be going on day-to-day around the NS world. Obviously if Yohannes began issuing rounds of quantitative easing, investors across the globe would sell their bonds held by Yohannes so that you'd credit their accounts with the additional money supply. In the short-term, just as occurred in US markets after each round was announced, there would be a very bullish rise in the market based around the influx of money.

That said, it's hard to determine whether or not the currency would actually devalue as Torontonian Canada said it would. Because of the nature of the Quertz and how wide-spread it is, along with how many investors trust its valuation and your nation's theoretical credit rating, I don't see the Quertz devaluing drastically or falling to the point where we have another GE&T recession when you shut everything down. That said, if you do too much quantitative easing, depending on how much money you're creating, a decade or two down the line the effects may be felt by inflated prices due to higher supplies of the Quertz on the global market. Even still, your currency would be so commonly traded and regarded as the US dollar that I doubt quantitative easing would realistically alter the valuation of the Quertz.

Whether or not its "fair" isn't really the question you should be asking; the question you should be asking is whether or not it makes sense for the Yohannesian Treasury to initiate quantitative easing in the first place. Quantitative easing wasn't initiated because the United States holds trillions of dollars in debt. It's because we were in the midst of a recession that demanded businesses invest larger sums of money into the economy and to do that the government needed to increase the supply of money and sell government bonds so that those funds could reach small businesses. This will effect your nation more than anything else, I'd imagine, unless the nations that hold your currency are also in the midst of a recession.

tl;dr: value won't drop, quantitative easing was done because of recession not debt, I have no idea what I'm talking about

[Yohannes]

I'm not an economist by any stretch of the imagination, but you're pretty much entirely correct from a valuation standpoint. We can, for all intents and purposes, equate the Yohannesian Quertz to the US dollar, in a NS-to-RL example.

It wouldn't be as strong as the NationStates Dollar or Universal Standard Dollar (it is actually used by almost everyone out there; people don't even think about it - they just say: pay in NS dollars, in US dollars, etc. ), so yeah the US/NS dollar and the Quertz russling is not even close. But sure, the Quertz russling is used by many nations (unless, again, I got hit by a bus and this nation goes cte'd permanently ), I won't put numbers (although I can) as I'd rather be humble about it haha...

You are, save for Lambda Financial, really the only banking firm on the site to have as much exposure and reach as you do. With that comes the inherent investments in the very lucrative, stable, and valuable Quertz russling that would be going on day-to-day around the NS world.

Yeah, which is why I am surprised Lyras didn't try to pull this off already, haha (he was one of the nations I can count by hand who can pull this trick off without much backlash too, btw, especially counting his historical interactions in NationStates and International Incidents and the resulting deals made with many nations out there, not recorded or can't be recorded by something like a storefront, which is not really important anyway). Maybe he knew, maybe he didn't. Maybe he didn't do it because he knew it's just going to create drama, or maybe people just don't think about it (the military is, as always of course, the focus instead). There were others - who are way smarter than we are all now - from as far back as in 2007 who could pull this off too (I can name names, but don't think it's necessary), but they didn't, because maybe everyone simply focused more on military things (as we can see by evidence), or the ones who think about it decided it's not a good idea OOC wise

Obviously if Yohannes began issuing rounds of quantitative easing, investors across the globe would sell their bonds held by Yohannes so that you'd credit their accounts with the additional money supply. In the short-term, just as occurred in US markets after each round was announced, there would be a very bullish rise in the market based around the influx of money.

In NationStates, or at least the theoretical NationStates realms where our nations connect their storylines with one another, it is actually far more simple. There are no limit of nation states, you see, unlike in real life. The opportunity to expand is always present, with the pool of ideal candidates to make deals or connections with always increasing (unless NationStates shuts down, which I really hope it won't ). I can simply sustain my momentum, even taking into account my absence for the past 3 years (I haven't been much at all) from this point on, and so long as I keep a number of nations on my list of 'people to target as potential partners' per week or something like that, then the whole thing can be realistically done. Which I initially did try. I have been trying mass telegrams on nations (some who were alternate accounts, but also a lot were actual real people's nations) and it worked back in 2015 I think it was (or 2014 not sure by memory). The only thing that ended up limiting that, was... well, real life haha... But it was fun (I actually made a list of successful nations, or failed attempts, counted per day by day), and it was very effective, at least for the very short time that I was able to properly play this game

That said, it's hard to determine whether or not the currency would actually devalue as Torontonian Canada said it would.

It wouldn't. So long as I can still lazily make new connections in NationStates of course, or not do really silly things (which I have regretfully done sadly... the problem of not thinking first before saying or doing things ) to annoy the ones I am connected with.

Because of the nature of the Quertz and how wide-spread it is, along with how many investors trust its valuation and your nation's theoretical credit rating,

That's the thing with NationStates (which is actually scary). There is no institution out there that can properly value someone's credit rating. If say, I value your credit rating as negative negative negative I don't know really bad rows of alphabet, so long as there are rows after rows of The Empire of Great Zambia or The Anarchist Federalist People's Republic of Aperistani buying your currency, or in character/IC wise RPing/posting fully showing that they are buying Aquitayne's currency, or by their commercial connections with you resulting in entities and people in their nation realistically buying your currency, well my condemnation or bad rating of your currency will mean nothing at all at the end of the day. It's like, in real life the United Nations telling the United Kingdom 'okay stop trying to catch whales (though it's Japans that doing this not UK haha) in [x] ocean, but what can they do? People still buy the whales, UK enterprises doing it got money out of it, and the UK? They just laugh at the UN Department of Anti Whale or Whale Preservation or something

I don't see the Quertz devaluing drastically or falling to the point where we have another GE&T recession when you shut everything down.

That whole thing was done by the 2012-2013 version of me, which was cringey and so nooby haha

Now we know that no one can do anything like that, unless it's Maxtopia (aka Max Barry's nation, which amusingly is also de-facto where I pretend NSD/USD comes from, so he is the superpower right there)

That said, if you do too much quantitative easing, depending on how much money you're creating, a decade or two down the line the effects may be felt by inflated prices due to higher supplies of the Quertz on the global market.

The market is not even global. It is multiregional/multinational, so huge. It is also ever expanding, even with the least effort or very bad circumstances, as I have said, unlike in real life where no (at least) 3 real nations pop out every week.

Even still, your currency would be so commonly traded and regarded as the US dollar that I doubt quantitative easing would realistically alter the valuation of the Quertz.

It wouldn't be so commonly traded. It would be commonly traded by many nations (even 1,000 does not mean very many when we look at NS). Whether it will be decided as a US Dollar is up to the roleplayers themselves. But I have no doubt that I can do wonder with my currency, and I can promote its stability and strength to assure people or institutions IC wise that it is something good to hold on to, or trade with. And yes, the valuation of the Quertz wouldn't go bad, unless I suddenly change my canon and change into an aggressive, people's republic or Fascist utopia of Yohannes haha. IF that become a reality, then I can't realistically say my trade/investment is not affected by it, or in this case maybe not those, but my currency

Whether or not its "fair" isn't really the question you should be asking; the question you should be asking is whether or not it makes sense for the Yohannesian Treasury to initiate quantitative easing in the first place.

That's the scary thing, actually. I know that OOC should not be mixed with IC. If we use that argument (which has been used multiple times in the past by very many players), that IC should be IC when it suit me the best (which this situation clearly will suit me the best), then I am afraid the Yohannesian Treasury will go ahead with it. But I won't go using that argument to justify such a thing. Because we all know people always nitpick on IC should be IC principle and it is not usually done fairly

Quantitative easing wasn't initiated because the United States holds trillions of dollars in debt. It's because we were in the midst of a recession that demanded businesses invest larger sums of money into the economy and to do that the government needed to increase the supply of money and sell government bonds so that those funds could reach small businesses. This will effect your nation more than anything else, I'd imagine, unless the nations that hold your currency are also in the midst of a recession.

And I doubt many nations like to RP their nation to be in recession, as you (of course) would know very well haha

It will affect my nation, but it will be like a steroid. I can stay isolated and not even log on at all and so long as I keep a quota of 'minimum number of new nations to be brought into the market' per week or something (by logging on here and there), I can go on my merry way without bothering much at all with anything, but making a lot in the background; whilst other are making wars, creating deals, etc at the frontline

tl;dr: value won't drop, quantitative easing was done because of recession not debt, I have no idea what I'm talking about

I did in fact RP a mini recession I think back in 2015? I am not sure these days. But debt was also present (it's fun lol). I have the assets to pay it off easily (going by strict IC), but decided not to do so and play along anyway lol

And thanks for the criticisms or recommendations Aquitayne! I like discussing things

[Neu Engollon]

Yohannes, I think what you've described as a scenario is feasible, and in fact it happens every day with most of the major RL capitalist nations at the moment. They declare their own value through major financial institutions and continue to print more money than they can back to keep the market artificially inflated. Quantitative easing is the name of the game at this point. Is it ethical? Probably not, but it's been made legit as it seems to be the only thing keeping the global economy aka the house of cards, afloat at the moment. The major drawback to this is that at some point the bubble has to burst. It can't be sustained indefinitely forever as the debt rises exponentially. In RL we're heading for a worse recession than we had 8 years ago because of it.

Anyway, back to NS. The major institutions in Neu Engollon, including the Ministry of Finance of the government of the Confederacy, would be willing to accept this status and play along with the Bank of Yohannes. The major national bank that props up the Confederacy's economy, EngolBanc, would probably play along. Would Neu Engollon value the Quertz over the NSD? No, but they would accept that the Quertz has a major influence on the value of the NSD. I don't have much sense of economy beyond that, but I do know that your proposal isn't that far fetched.

[Yohannes]

Yohannes, I think what you've described as a scenario is feasible, and in fact it happens every day with most of the major RL capitalist nations at the moment.

Yeah. But not on the scale of NationStates (even assuming all of us are using very small population; say each and every single nation must have less than 50 million people or less than that. The number of nations that we can interact with - on top of the ones that will always be 'created' by their owners (assuming real people, not just recycling alternate accounts/puppet accounts) - meant that the scale of game style (or the way we can play that game) is way larger and allow us to be more creative

Another thing fun to think about. Not too many people in NationStates can be bothered doing anything like it, or knows how to make it work realistically. Flooding nation A with his/her currency to make it crash is probably the most common thing (close to this currency stuff) that people tend to think of, and that is the same as sending my guided cruisers to nation A and having it arrived in three days (it's really so basic, but the fact that most people think it's a legit way of playing meant not too many people knows how things work, when it comes to non military, which is understandable). It's fun, because you can be creative. And others can't do anything but follow your move, or wait to see what you do, then they can copy your move

They declare their own value through major financial institutions and continue to print more money than they can back to keep the market artificially inflated. Quantitative easing is the name of the game at this point. Is it ethical? Probably not, but it's been made legit as it seems to be the only thing keeping the global economy aka the house of cards, afloat at the moment. The major drawback to this is that at some point the bubble has to burst. It can't be sustained indefinitely forever as the debt rises exponentially. In RL we're heading for a worse recession than we had 8 years ago because of it.

Yeah, but in NationStates, there will be another nation that either you or me can interact with tomorrow, or next week, or a month from now. We will always have someone, or rather, some new nation, to prop our currency (if we can sell it to them attractively), unlike in real life, where no new nation pop out every month.

... would be willing to accept this status and play along with the Bank of Yohannes.

The Bank of Yohannes is actually very quiet at the moment, because I am rather busy IRL (I know, I am sorry... that is the reason I am always gone for months or so, not because I want to abandon or ditch anyone for fun lol. I just don't have the time anymore sadly)

I don't feel it's right for me to have any ambition when there are way more people out there who are happy storytelling/roleplaying with one another every single day (wish I can still do that...). I simply want to consolidate my place in terms of my connections with people who have been kind enough to let me connect my economy/market with their economies/markets. I know I will pull something like this off realistically, just want to be extra serious about it, in case some very clever people in the future figured out I have been trying to cheat (like us seeing extremely well functioning and mobile railguns and stuff used commonly and seen as fairly modern technology by NationStates storytellers/roleplayers back in 2004 - that trend was started by someone, with others competing with that person then following him, and then finally the near majority followed - though the storytellers/roleplayers of today knows better than that)

Anyway, back to NS. The major institutions in Neu Engollon, including the Ministry of Finance of the government of the Confederacy.... The major national bank that props up the Confederacy's economy, EngolBanc, would probably play along. Would Neu Engollon value the Quertz over the NSD? No, but they would accept that the Quertz has a major influence on the value of the NSD. I don't have much sense of economy beyond that, but I do know that your proposal isn't that far fetched.

Once I started doing this (or figuring out how to do it realistically), I will telegram you and see if I can help you with out of character information to benefit Neu Engollon in character wise (economically speaking, making its position stronger from doing this itself also). Then probably others will try to follow you (because they don't want to lose out the advantage, this has always been the case in NationStates storytelling/roleplaying) and then roleplay something like what you have done for their nations also. You are located in Astyria or in character wise your economy would connect itself way more closer with your friends, who I will guess are lots of em located in Astyria? I think that when you do what I did for Yohannes for your own nation, you will have more influence on your neighbouring nations and Astyrian nation states more than I can realistically have (I am located too far away, there might be a tiny bit of influence, but it's not realistic for me to pretend otherwise; whereas you are way closer to them, both geographically and historically/culturally/economically speaking)

You might also have certain allies in your alliances (if you are on any at the moment, sorry I don't watch many NationStates development now, so my knowledge is kinda outdated ) that will want to imitate/copy your move, if you are doing it in the future. I know for a fact someone [name hidden for his privacy, don't want him to be upset haha] (who is in character wise really influential, much more than me now as I am largely isolating myself both OOC and IC due to no time at all in real life mostly) recently talked with me by telegram also, asking about who can pull this off and probably he is interested in knowing how to pull this off for his nation. And then others (his region contain pretty IC wise capable nations) close to him or those looking up to him will want a slice of the pie for their own nation also (they will use their own national variations and follow him).

So in the end, it can be an Astyrian or [insert your friends in your organisation here] thing. Just like the railgun trend in modern technology back then was started by someone (and now we don't even know who that was) and followed by others more active or more influential than him, this has always been the trend of NationStates. Same as well as storefront style (for GE&T's case) for some, or even embassy/foreign affairs minister/department thread in Factbook & National Information sub forum (it was in International Incidents back then, not in Factbook & National Information). All these are always started by someone or a group of people, and become popular (or maybe not) over time.

Thanks for discussing this with me. It was interesting hearing your opinion

[Neu Engollon]

I'm not an Astyrian anymore and neither Neu Engollon nor any of my nations are tied directly into that regional economy. The only connections left to Astyria would be franchises or outlets that my businesses have in Astyria, military products sold to Astyrian nations and past security/defense contracts my major PMC has had in that region.

Neu Engollon does not have any outer-regional alliances (nor inner regional ones as they're politically neutral) other than corporate ties both through food & beverage industry and the PMC industry. I'm thinking more on the global economy, that we're all loosely tied into each other, or at the level that we want to be, anyway. I don't think it needs to be tied into region as much as being tied to those most active in GE&T, no matter their RP'd IC size or their regional affiliation.

[Yohannes]

I'm not an Astyrian anymore and neither Neu Engollon nor any of my nations are tied directly into that regional economy. The only connections left to Astyria would be franchises or outlets that my businesses have in Astyria, military products sold to Astyrian nations and past security/defense contracts my major PMC has had in that region.

Ah okay. Sorry, as I've said I don't know developments these days. But in terms of long term trend like what I posted, they are always there if we look at it (no matter the years, or the generation of roleplayers, they will always do what people in the past did; a cycle I guess)

Neu Engollon does not have any outer-regional alliances (nor inner regional ones as they're politically neutral) other than corporate ties both through food & beverage industry and the PMC industry. I'm thinking more on the global economy, that we're all loosely tied into each other, or at the level that we want to be, anyway.

Okay. Yeah, at the level we want it to be

I don't think it needs to be tied into region as much as being tied to those most active in GE&T, no matter their RP'd IC size or their regional affiliation.

I respect your opinion as always (though sometimes I may sound arrogant, once again sorry for that), but I really doubt the Global Economics & Trade sub forum really meant anything at all these days. It's just an outlet for people to show their stuff, but the stuff itself (what we actually do with one another), now... they can't be represented by GE&T alone. It's things like, say (just one fictional example), if you and me discuss about the possibility of having company A in Neu Engollon and company B in Yohannes doing stuff that benefit our nation somehow, now imagine if you have done that with many other people (with their nations) through telegrams, or through your interactions in forums (NS, II, etc.), GE&T is but just one outlet where you can show the depth of your nation's connection with others in game.

There are many other ways of doing that. Me, I mostly now approach people by telegram (I don't have much time), whilst others who are more active might want to pursue their goal by posting things at the NS or II sub forums, instead of GE&T. I have always thought of GE&T as a very quiet sub forum. It's not where people do the deals, they have made up or agreed to the deals somewhere else, and then concluded that in GE&T if they have to (such as say, once some newbie decided they want some shiny looking ship, they go to a ship storefront and buy that ship; the newbie don't care about GE&T, they just have to visit GE&T to go to that ship storefront to buy their shiny looking ship - and will most likely not bother with it other than going back to that ship storefront, or looking at other ship storefront)

But again, you will probably disagree with me so yeah. That's just my opinion though

Edit: I wanted to say, in fact GE&T is just like a carbon copy sub forum, where people didn't actually roleplay/storytell stories, but actually just copy paste communique/letter of 'accepted. Thank you.' once some people have bought their stuff, or used their services (I was not trying to offend people when I say that... it was just the observation of some people - who told me that - that I happen to agree with too. I hope no one will be offended

I was actually sad when people made that observation, well because their observations' true (to me anyway). So that was why I started to not just copy paste communique or letters when I reply to people in the Bank of Yohannes thread. I also want to change it to become something different than simply a storefront. I want it to be a thread where people can see the stories, my stories, of things happening in Yohannes, or outside Yohannes, that got to do with my bank, or finance and banking in general connected with my bank. I want it to be different, to be unique )

[Neu Engollon]

GE&T is representational, Yo. Obviously, all NS nations have an economy to some degree with a number of competing enterprises, some legit...some not so much (black market). Neu Engollon doesn't only have two or three craft breweries, one pet food company, one gourmet restaurant chain and one PMC, but I can't very well RP every single one of them, or at least I don't choose to use my time that way. Some folks don't choose to RP GE&T at all and see it as a waste of time, and I will respect that. I don't feel that there's a lack of an active economic sector in their nation just because they're all about only RPing football, singing contests or war and conquering.

Yes, to a degree there will be the copy pasting of acceptance letters in GE&T, but sometimes there will be a chance to branch out by those applying. It may only be a unique sentence or two in the acceptance letter, but it offers a jumping off point to bring two nations together and create further dialog. Recently, Spanish Crowns decided to have a coup and nationalize all industry, including my newly built mega-brewery. I responded with full boycott and shutdown, NESA (Neu Engollon Security Agency) was put into action in order to do a proper assessment. Meanwhile, my beer conglomerate went into full crisis mode, even though, realistically, it would have barely been a small blip on their radar even though it was the loss of millions NSD. While I was originally peeved that right on the heels of reluctantly approving a huge ill advised brewery in a new market, it was immediately seized and nationalized, I kind of warmed up to the idea as it gave me a chance to stretch my wings and RP something different than the typical rubber stamp acceptance letter. That's what can happen in GE&T if people just let it.

Also, on the flip side, I view GE&T storefronts as just one aspect of RPing and fleshing out NS commerce and the products born out of mine and other NSers imaginations. RPing conflict RPs gives me a chance to put into use the products I've purchased from other NS storefronts, as well as my own. Doing other events such as beer and culture festivals gives me a chance to put a face to the executives and employees than run my food and beverage companies and have them mingle with other nations' counterparts. The excitement is where you make it, my friend, and you get out what you put in.

You're creating an opportunity to have a whole other layer of GE&T that has been sorely lacking and you shouldn't be so quick to talk yourself out of it. I don't know much about RPing banking as I have zero clue on RL banking other than when my account isn't looking like it should. (I got the lesson on quantitative easing and inflating to keep ahead of a crash from a co-worker) I'm willing to follow others' leads and see where it takes us. So let's do those back door cognac and cigar meetings, lets have the secret account transactions and the governments generating money to keep themselves rich or at least afloat. Let's do it, man.

[Yohannes]

True, thanks for that! Gives me something to think about (when I want to be playing NationStates )

[Great Minarchistan]

My main concern here is how NSD can be valid. I mean, you can get 300 billion NSD allegedly from roleplay, when you didn't. The NSD system is so flawed, even Minecraft economics is easier.

[Yohannes]

My main concern here is how NSD can be valid. I mean, you can get 300 billion NSD allegedly from roleplay, when you didn't. The NSD system is so flawed, even Minecraft economics is easier.

That was one the original reasons that storytellers/roleplayers adopted the whole NationStates calculator (offsite calculator sites, i.e. NSTracker, Absolution, etc.). Once a couple of storefront owners required you (the general fictional buyers) to justify where you have got the 300 billion NationStates Dollars from (they want you to justify it to come from your supposed national budget, which the offsite calculators calculated for you), then the others followed

The trend started historically. And now it's largely obsolete. People don't bother anymore with that. Which is good, in a way, because strictly following offsite calculators doesn't justify your economy being able to afford, say, trillions' worth of new ICBMs, or billions' worth of new spades. You've got to maintain them, subcontract their maintenance to others, etc. something that no calculators will ever be able to calculate, using certain numbers generated by gameplay population (which a lot of people don't use, also)

So it becomes a game of 'can you trust the buyer'? But from what I have seen, when you can get away with it, as a seller you will try to give leeway. So it becomes a game of checking your posting history. But most people can't really be bothered with that, not worth it. So it becomes a simple game of accepted or rejected, with mostly accepted as the answer. I was guilty of this myself when I used to run my VMK storefront. And there's nothing wrong with it. It's the sellers' instinct to want to have their products be bought by someone. Unless, of course, the acceptance of that purchase will give more problems (both OOC and IC) than is worth the fictional billions in supposed paper income

Edit: most nations' budget that I have seen also don't take into account debt and other things. That and other things not taken into account usually by most roleplayers/storytellers are important because it can affect whether you can buy what you say you can buy or not. But people are not interested with that, which is understandable (nothing wrong with that). I will not go further into that because that's going too far to another kind of conversation. So long as you treat NationStates like you are dealing with thirteen years old, you will be happy. That's an unfair, broad generalisation of course (and you will probably disagree with me ), but it has worked really well so far Final edit: once again, I hope my generalisation there didn't offend people (just have to be sure haha....)

[Great Minarchistan]

Quantitative easing wasn't initiated because the United States holds trillions of dollars in debt. It's because we were in the midst of a recession that demanded businesses invest larger sums of money into the economy and to do that the government needed to increase the supply of money and sell government bonds so that those funds could reach small businesses. This will effect your nation more than anything else, I'd imagine, unless the nations that hold your currency are also in the midst of a recession.

tl;dr: value won't drop, quantitative easing was done because of recession not debt, I have no idea what I'm talking about

Q.E. is worthless, it is the same of cut a pizza in 16 slices instead of 8, and affirm that it will stimulate economy. During a round of Q.E. what you are doing is nothing but money printing, and since no wealth was created in the process, your currency value drops, compensated by the extra volume of currency.

Let's turn this easier with an example: Bananistan has a currency named Banana Dollar (BD$) and it is pegged according to Bananistan stone reserves. So let's suppose there are 10.000 BD$ on market while Bananistan coffers hold 50.000 tons of stone. Therefore, one BD$ equals to 5 stone tons, right?

But then due to a recession (or debt crisis, whatever the government blames) Bananistan printed 15.000 BD$, totaling 25.000 Banana Dollars. The stone reserves, however, didn't change. Now you got 50.000 tons of stone and 25.000 Banana Dollars. So instead of 1 BD$ = 5T stone, 1 BD$ = 2T stone.

Although Bananistan increased its amount of currency by 150%, the wealth didn't increase. Final result: You just devalorized your currency, produced a big amount of inflation and crippled the economy. Yay.

[Common Territories]

My main concern here is how NSD can be valid. I mean, you can get 300 billion NSD allegedly from roleplay, when you didn't. The NSD system is so flawed, even Minecraft economics is easier.

I think you're missing the point of NSD. NSD is the simplification of currency exchange on NS. Rather than converting a bunch of Nation A dollars into Nation B Yen to make one purchase on GE&T, people can rely on NSD because the one rule it holds true is that its value forever shall be 1.00 when compared to any other currency. People don't want to have a long discussion to figure out what their currency is worth in your currency, or how to convert cash in general, just to make a purchase on some storefront; the simpler and easiest system to allow people to place orders for products/services, the better. The more complicated you make it for people to make orders, the worse your business will do. NSD was birthed by the community who observed that very nature. That is why it exists, because many many years ago, people in the roleplay forums realized things needed to be simpler for progress to be made.

I don't really understand how you can get $300 billion from roleplay but didn't at the same time, but I assume you mean to say people make cheap money using cheap methods. Correct me if im wrong. That's just a fact here in GE&T and on NS in general. It's one party debating another at times; if you want to combat such deplorable behavior by people, confront it in a civil manner (following the rules of course) and make your case known to them with healthy criticism. Otherwise, leave them be if they aren't breaking any site rules and don't wish to hear your arguments. The second reality to GE&T is (after NSD norms, of course) there will always be newer players, experienced players, and then the breed that lay between those two; what's left are lazy players, scammers, and trolls (and maybe a bunch of other types of players on NS, who knows). But it's not fair to compare NationStates to Minecraft in general, especially when it comes to economics. This community decides how it earns money in a activity called roleplay. In Minecraft, you dig a bunch of materials and convert them into something else. The two are different in scope and design. It's like comparing "Green Eggs and Ham" with "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" - both are literary classics in the world of books, but have different literary styles, audiences, and story styles.

[Yohannes]

Q.E. is worthless,

It is worthless in real life, where no new nation sprung up once a month or so (and that's a fairly low estimate). But when applied to NationStates, and changed or tweaked a bit, it will not be. This is the reason we don't just copy paste things from real life and put it to NationStates. First of all, it shows we don't understand how it really works. Secondly, other people will find out where we just copy paste our stuff from

it is the same of cut a pizza in 16 slices instead of 8, and affirm that it will stimulate economy. During a round of Q.E. what you are doing is nothing but money printing, and since no wealth was created in the process, your currency value drops, compensated by the extra volume of currency.

Let's turn this easier with an example: Bananistan has a currency named Banana Dollar (BD$) and it is pegged according to Bananistan stone reserves. So let's suppose there are 10.000 BD$ on market while Bananistan coffers hold 50.000 tons of stone. Therefore, one BD$ equals to 5 stone tons, right?

But then due to a recession (or debt crisis, whatever the government blames) Bananistan printed 15.000 BD$, totaling 25.000 Banana Dollars. The stone reserves, however, didn't change. Now you got 50.000 tons of stone and 25.000 Banana Dollars. So instead of 1 BD$ = 5T stone, 1 BD$ = 2T stone.

Although Bananistan increased its amount of currency by 150%, the wealth didn't increase. Final result: You just devalorized your currency, produced a big amount of inflation and crippled the economy. Yay.

Again. You did not take into account that in NationStates, you are most likely going to interact with new nations. Unless you purposely restrict yourself to not wanting to engage with any other new nations, beside the ones you are connected to (IC wise) now. Then yeah, you are dead right. But this is not the case. And I hope you're not offended that I say this. For some reason I always made people upset or angry

Edit:

I think you're missing the point of NSD. NSD is the simplification of currency exchange on NS. Rather than converting a bunch of Nation A dollars into Nation B Yen to make one purchase on GE&T, people can rely on NSD because the one rule it holds true is that it's value forever shall be 1.00 when compared to any other currency. People don't want to have to have a long discussion to figure out what their currency is worth in yours, or how to convert cash in general, just to make a purchase on some storefront; the simpler and easiest system to allow people to place orders for products/services, the better. NSD was birthed by the community who observed that very nature. That is why it exists, because many many years ago, people in the roleplay forums realized things needed to be simpler.

I don't really understand how you can get $300 billion from roleplay but didn't at the same time, but I assume you mean to say people make cheap money using cheap methods. Correct me if im wrong. That's just a fact here in GE&T and on NS in general. It's one party debating another at times; if you want to combat such deplorable behavior by people, confront it in a civil manner (following the rules of course) and make your case known to them with healthy criticism. Otherwise, leave them be if they aren't breaking any site rules and don't wish to hear your arguments. But it's not fair to compare NationStates to Minecraft in general, especially when it comes to economics. This community decides how it earns money in a activity called roleplay. In Minecraft, you dig a bunch of materials and convert them into something else. The two are different in scope and design. It's like comparing "Green Eggs and Ham" with "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" - both are literary classics in the world of books, but have different literary styles, audiences, and story styles.

And Common Territories is right, right there. I know that he hated me (which was perfectly justifiable, it was thoroughly my fault haha) but I hope that he will not ask the mods to delete this side of the post

Final edit: Common Territories is right @Great Minarchistan, in the sense that a section of the community (talked about this, even way back in 2007) had this kind of talk already (multiple times) about the status of NSD, and at the end of the day, people just assumed for the sake of simplicity what Common Territories told you

[Neu Engollon]

What you're not factoring in is something like the 'Fed', aka the Federal Reserve, which has kept the interest rate in the US artificially low for a long time, when it should have risen along with the over printing of money and other economic factors like the real estate bust. Likewise you have the IMF and it's associated World Bank. I see it as a position of leverage where a nation like the US or a more developed nation can get away with fudging their currency worth because they have a lot of chips in the game and a lot of say on trade, whereas your Bananastan (less developed, 3rd world nation) doesn't have as much say on the world financial market, so they're printing of excess money just creates a chaotic situation in their nation because they may mandate new currency laws, but other nations don't have to, and likely won't play along and so their currency devalues. So in the end it's a matter of what benefit is it to other nations in the Multiverse or global economy to accept your superficial moves to artificially inflate or stabilize your economy based on what in reality isn't based on any real resource backed commodity.

So it comes down to handshakes, winks and nods. Who sets the oil prices? What decides the going rate of precious metals and who makes that call? I'll give you a hint, it's more likely someone in Maxtopia or Bigtopia than in Bananastan.

As for accepting purchases from nations that might not justifiably have the funds, I think you're right on with taking into account debt levels. The obvious example: The US spending ridiculous $$ on military defense when the nation is trillions of dollars in debt. Those defense companies are willing to turn a blind eye to the fact that the US can't realistically continue to make regular payments were they to honor their debts. Some of that debt ironically owed to the same nations we're spending funny money to defend ourselves from. It can make ones head spin.

[Great Minarchistan]

Q.E. is worthless,

It is worthless in real life, where no new nation sprung up once a month or so (and that's a fairly low estimate). But when applied to NationStates, and changed or tweaked a bit, it will not be. This is the reason we don't just copy paste things from real life and put it to NationStates. First of all, it shows we don't understand how it really works. Secondly, other people will find out where we just copy paste our stuff from

it is the same of cut a pizza in 16 slices instead of 8, and affirm that it will stimulate economy. During a round of Q.E. what you are doing is nothing but money printing, and since no wealth was created in the process, your currency value drops, compensated by the extra volume of currency.

Let's turn this easier with an example: Bananistan has a currency named Banana Dollar (BD$) and it is pegged according to Bananistan stone reserves. So let's suppose there are 10.000 BD$ on market while Bananistan coffers hold 50.000 tons of stone. Therefore, one BD$ equals to 5 stone tons, right?

But then due to a recession (or debt crisis, whatever the government blames) Bananistan printed 15.000 BD$, totaling 25.000 Banana Dollars. The stone reserves, however, didn't change. Now you got 50.000 tons of stone and 25.000 Banana Dollars. So instead of 1 BD$ = 5T stone, 1 BD$ = 2T stone.

Although Bananistan increased its amount of currency by 150%, the wealth didn't increase. Final result: You just devalorized your currency, produced a big amount of inflation and crippled the economy. Yay.

Again. You did not take into account that in NationStates, you are most likely going to interact with new nations. Unless you purposely restrict yourself to not wanting to engage with any other new nations, beside the ones you are connected to (IC wise) now. Then yeah, you are dead right. But this is not the case. And I hope you're not offended that I say this. For some reason I always made people upset or angry

I was actually explaining the concept in real life, I think I was too lazy to understand the whole thingy, kek.

Also don't worry, I'm not a snowflake, I hardly take micro-aggressions as an offense :^)

Edit:

I think you're missing the point of NSD. NSD is the simplification of currency exchange on NS. Rather than converting a bunch of Nation A dollars into Nation B Yen to make one purchase on GE&T, people can rely on NSD because the one rule it holds true is that it's value forever shall be 1.00 when compared to any other currency. People don't want to have to have a long discussion to figure out what their currency is worth in yours, or how to convert cash in general, just to make a purchase on some storefront; the simpler and easiest system to allow people to place orders for products/services, the better. NSD was birthed by the community who observed that very nature. That is why it exists, because many many years ago, people in the roleplay forums realized things needed to be simpler.

I don't really understand how you can get $300 billion from roleplay but didn't at the same time, but I assume you mean to say people make cheap money using cheap methods. Correct me if im wrong. That's just a fact here in GE&T and on NS in general. It's one party debating another at times; if you want to combat such deplorable behavior by people, confront it in a civil manner (following the rules of course) and make your case known to them with healthy criticism. Otherwise, leave them be if they aren't breaking any site rules and don't wish to hear your arguments. But it's not fair to compare NationStates to Minecraft in general, especially when it comes to economics. This community decides how it earns money in a activity called roleplay. In Minecraft, you dig a bunch of materials and convert them into something else. The two are different in scope and design. It's like comparing "Green Eggs and Ham" with "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" - both are literary classics in the world of books, but have different literary styles, audiences, and story styles.

And Common Territories is right, right there. I know that he hated me (which was perfectly justifiable, it was thoroughly my fault haha) but I hope that he will not ask the mods to delete this side of the post

Final edit: Common Territories is right @Great Minarchistan, in the sense that a section of the community (talked about this, even way back in 2007) had this kind of talk already (multiple times) about the status of NSD, and at the end of the day, people just assumed for the sake of simplicity what Common Territories told you

Thanks to make things more clear for me. I'm still not fully confident either, I think I'll need to adapt myself to this system, rip.

[Great Minarchistan]

What you're not factoring in is something like the 'Fed', aka the Federal Reserve, which has kept the interest rate in the US artificially low for a long time, when it should have risen along with the over printing of money and other economic factors like the real estate bust. Likewise you have the IMF and it's associated World Bank. I see it as a position of leverage where a nation like the US or a more developed nation can get away with fudging their currency worth because they have a lot of chips in the game and a lot of say on trade, whereas your Bananastan (less developed, 3rd world nation) doesn't have as much say on the world financial market, so they're printing of excess money just creates a chaotic situation in their nation because they may mandate new currency laws, but other nations don't have to, and likely won't play along and so their currency devalues. So in the end it's a matter of what benefit is it to other nations in the Multiverse or global economy to accept your superficial moves to artificially inflate or stabilize your economy based on what in reality isn't based on any real resource backed commodity.

So it comes down to handshakes, winks and nods. Who sets the oil prices? What decides the going rate of precious metals and who makes that call? I'll give you a hint, it's more likely someone in Maxtopia or Bigtopia than in Bananastan.

As for accepting purchases from nations that might not justifiably have the funds, I think you're right on with taking into account debt levels. The obvious example: The US spending ridiculous $$ on military defense when the nation is trillions of dollars in debt. Those defense companies are willing to turn a blind eye to the fact that the US can't realistically continue to make regular payments were they to honor their debts. Some of that debt ironically owed to the same nations we're spending funny money to defend ourselves from. It can make ones head spin.

Don't even speak of Fed. They invented some sort of weird system where you print trillions of dollars, throw them at banks and make the banks hold the money on Fed since they gain the benchmark interest. It's such a suicidal system where Fed offered himself and US federal budget as hostages. Now if Fed does not hike interest rates regularly the banks will simply withdraw all that money, throw them at economy and unleash hyperinflation. I agree with all you said, and unfortunately US Dollar is world's financial standard.

#GoldStandardPls

[Yohannes]

I was actually explaining the concept in real life, I think I was too lazy to understand the whole thingy, kek.

Yup, I understand. I was just afraid that you assume that it will just be copy pasted without taking anything else into account. Don't worry, there are quite a good system of check and balance 'round here (or other discussion people over at the other sub forum) to make sure things are not out of whack. Also, I am not in the same group as Neu Engollon or Common Territories (in fact, we fought a lot in the past or recently), so we are definitely not ganging up on you or anything like that (sorry if it seems like that...)

Also don't worry, I'm not a snowflake, I hardly take micro-aggressions as an offense :^)

Yeah. I am an oppressed minority in real life myself, so I take micro aggression seriously.... (:<)

Thanks to make things more clear for me. I'm still not fully confident either, I think I'll need to adapt myself to this system, rip.

Hope I (or Neu Engollon or Common Territories) didn't offend you, Great Minarchistan. I don't know about their policies (they are sound people aka nice) but me personally, I treat every other account as if they are alternate or puppet account, so I try to be extremely polite when I am not drunk wink

so sorry once again if I did say anything that was wrong or Idk I said in a slightly offensive manner. Its been nice discussin this with u, thank you for your honesty!

[Neu Engollon]

I think we're having a constructive discussion here, I don't know where there would be offense. It's okay for folks to disagree and not be the enemy.

Yohannes, you and I did have our differences but I was pretty sure that we ironed all that out and were chill now. I'm not sure we need to bring any OOC previous disagreements into what is a productive discussion about IC economies.

I think we could bring this back from OOC discord and full circle. What you are proposing is mirroring an under layer to the NS (Multiverse) economy and who has influence on it and who would want to accept that such actions by major economic players would have an effect on their national and regional economies. Really, it's up to each NS player whether they choose to accept that or not.

By the same token, as was stated, we all accept the fact that the NSD has a constant value of 1.00, which brings stability to everyone's currencies. With the vast amount of nations that come and go it would be sheer chaos if the NSD couldn't be nailed down. Still, it would be fun to look under the curtains and hypothesize who is pulling the strings to keep that stability in place, artificially or with sound economics.

[Great Minarchistan]

Thanks to make things more clear for me. I'm still not fully confident either, I think I'll need to adapt myself to this system, rip.

Hope I (or Neu Engollon or Common Territories) didn't offend you, Great Minarchistan. I don't know about their policies (they are sound people aka nice) but me personally, I treat every other account as if they are alternate or puppet account, so I try to be extremely polite when I am not drunk wink

so sorry once again if I did say anything that was wrong or Idk I said in a slightly offensive manner. Its been nice discussin this with u, thank you for your honesty!

Chillax chillax, I ain't reporting you guys to ADL, kek.

[Yohannes]

I think we could bring this back from OOC discord and full circle. What you are proposing is mirroring an under layer to the NS (Multiverse) economy and who has influence on it and who would want to accept that such actions by major economic players would have an effect on their national and regional economies. Really, it's up to each NS player whether they choose to accept that or not.

By the same token, as was stated, we all accept the fact that the NSD has a constant value of 1.00, which brings stability to everyone's currencies. With the vast amount of nations that come and go it would be sheer chaos if the NSD couldn't be nailed down. Still, it would be fun to look under the curtains and hypothesize who is pulling the strings to keep that stability in place, artificially or with sound economics.

You are right, more or less, with the exception of some things. Except that it is fully applicable (to an extent) to just about everyone who want to go there. And I want it to be very simple and easy to do (but can be more complex or IC wise giving more advantage - as an incentive - for those who want to make it be nicer). Just like the foreign relations/embassy exchange thread concept (which was also started ages back then by someone or a couple of people and became a lasting trend, to the present day) is there if you want to storytell/roleplay that side of your diplomacy. It rests under a pillar of equality (everyone can start a foreign relations/embassy exchange concept thread of their own). So it will not be there only for the benefits of the few. It can be though. But I don't want to go there.

The reason I replied here is just to make it clear that the whole thing will not be a 'major economic players' kind of thing. I don't want any of that, and I doubt something like that will take off or be received well. However, to make it realistically feasible, there will need to be money. A lot of money. Resources that you must be willing to commit to IC wise. It's like a building I guess haha (that sounds so wrong lol). It needs pillars to act as the thing to hold the whole system. I am willing to IC wise prop the system up (IC wise I will use this as a justification, and I know I can afford it anyway) and I can see others willing to do the same too.

Now that that is out of the way (making sure that we know it's an equal system, only if you want to pursue that side of your economic gameplay) I will just telegram you and discuss it with you there/see your opinion there

[Prosorusiya]

https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=400399&p=30975941#p30975941

Some more updates to my WIP Airline Storefront, which is coming along, albeit slowly. I've decided to concentrate on flights to nearby Central Asia (which I know a little about thanks to a course I took on the Silk Road), since this will give me some connection to China as well as Russia, albeit indirectly. My hope is a combination of low fares and belly cargo will help make my airline more profitable. I based the ticket prices off this of Peboda,Aeroflot's low cost subsidiary.

Any comments?