The Argument Against Calculators -- A Guide, Of Sorts

[Paypilazhen]

Ah, so you're talking about WHERE the money is going, I thought you meant in the general aspect of it not being able to be run no matter where the money was going because no capital would be produced.

[Imagey Nation]

The problem here isn't money, it's production. No category on those calculators has anything to do with production of goods, therefore according to the calculators, if you have 100% tax rate, no one is producing goods.

GDP does. But the calculators of NS treat GDP as ordinary income.

Consider the iron and steel industry and goods made from these metals. The mining sector extracts and processes the ore and sells it to the smelting sector. They in turn refine the ore into metals and sell them to fabricators who make goods that they sell to distributors who sell them to industrial, commercial and individual consumers. Even if the profits at each stage from the sales and the income earned for the labor were taxed at 100%, the value of the ore would not be taxed.
It is the same for agricultural goods.
So GDP includes more than income and profits.

Even if you include in 'income tax' all taxes, such as property taxes, sales taxes, excise taxes, VAT, etc. a.n., you never get to 100% of Gross Domestic Production.

BTW, how can you have gross domestic production if no one is producing goods?

For my part, I ignore it, just like the daily rating of which nations are greater in potato picking or pretzel bending.

Thank you.

[Vetalia]

I'd have to disagree with the idea that those categories can't be interpreted as including production. The key lies in interpreting them fairly, and I think fair interpretation of those statistics can produce interesting, realistic economic dynamics that are far better than simply making up a GDP per capita. This concept was the bedrock of the Soviet economy and the other examples of CPEs around the world.

Using the NSeconomy categories:

Administration: Most likely includes general unallocated capital investment, production planning, administrative costs etc.
Social Welfare: Probably the broadest category, covers social services as well as the state's service industries like stores, gas stations, public facilities.
Healthcare: Production of health-related goods and services, from hospitals, drugs and medical equipment to toothpaste, toilet paper and soap.
Education: Educational facilities, general scientific research production of books, mass media, other communications.
Religion & Spirituality: Only applies to state religions, but could be interpreted as specific cultural and artistic production if a numerical value is present in a secular state.
Defence: Defense-related goods. research and development, as well as a massive share of general civilian consumer goods production that serve a dual purpose for supplying the armed forces.
Law & Order: Likely a very broad category that has elements of all of the others, since law and order in a socialist state is a very broad term.
Commerce: Supplemental funding or subsidies for large state-owned industrial trusts, general allocated capital investment.
Public Transport: Infrastructure, transportation (including automotive industry) heavy industrial plants for producing related goods, general construction.
The Environment: Food production and distribution, including pesticides, fertilizers, silos, processing plants, even tractors and trucks. Also could include parks, tourism, natural resources, etc/
Social Equality: Similar to social welfare but could also cover production of subsidized consumer staples.

Using a 20% investment rate for these categories plus the "general" investment in administration and commerce, you'd get an overall rate of around 30% for TWSP. That's quite close to investment's real share of the economy in the Soviet Union. Depending on how you'd classify the categories (i.e. education is "consumer goods" oriented while "public transportation" is heavy industry) for the remaining 70%, you'd have around 80% consumption/consumer goods and 20% heavy industrial products and capital goods.

The result would be an economy that is around 56% consumption of consumer goods and 44% investment/heavy industry (since government and exports fold in to these categories). However, like the Soviet Union's own situation the fact stands that this allocation is not optimal and the result would likely be ongoing misallocations of production, shortages of consumer goods, and constant underutilization of economic resources. Even the individual categories are likely off; a ton is allocated to education while relatively disproportionate amounts are allocated to categories that could include consumer staples. The result would be tons of books or TVs but shortages of clothing and furniture. These are very realistic challenges for a country with a "100% tax rate" and all are based on NS Economy data with a degree of interpretation. It makes no sense for a CPE to have a per-capita GDP and standard of living equivalent to that of a highly developed capitalist state unless it's either highly technologically advanced (like pushing FT) or somehow able to overcome the system's challenges.

Now, your method is definitely much simpler, quicker and a lot easier for those uninterested in detailed economics, but interpreting the NSE data offers a lot of opportunity for those interested in realistic economic RPing.

I'd say the best thing to do is this:

(Target GDP per capita*(0.3+(1-tax rate))= GDP per capita

Obviously this is simplified and rounded but it works. I did this based upon the US' data for a country with a 100% ETR:

$45,800*(0.3+0)=$13,740

Pretty reasonable considering this was approximately the ratio between the US and USSR during the 1980s. Depending on how robust your economy is, you might justifiably increase that 0.3 (for example, during the 1950's or 1960's when the USSR was narrowing its economic gap with the US, or if your nation had a well-developed economy prior to state control. like the GDR or Czechoslovakia).

[Questers]

I just don't agree that you can interpret the meaning of something differently to suit your own purpose. Of course you are right on some of these (Education & Healthcare specifically; but you wouldn't want to live in a country where houses weren't being produced but hospital beds were...) but there are a few I take exception to specifically. Incidentally, I don't think it's "fair" that you can claim a functioning economy with a 100% tax rate and at the same time have a nominal numerical advantage over people with realistic taxation. I think that's vastly unfair.

Administration: What? How do you possibly fit "unallocated capital investment" into Administration costs?
Social Welfare: Well, alright, but that's still not producing anything... stores and gas stations are more likely to fit under commerce, really.
Commerce: Isn't anything at all to do with production or investment. It's the process of selling goods. What makes you think that it's "fair" that a nation operating on 100% income tax rate gets to choose the interpretation of an already solidly defined term?
The Environment: Under what possible definition could you say that "The Environment" was food production or production of fertilisers? Or even tractors? I mean, I guess if that's what you really think it is, but in my opinion The Environment clearly is designed to be interpreted as "green spending".

I never claimed that a CPE could have the same GDP/PC as a market economy, I just detailed the method by which you would calculate GDP. The numbers you input are your own choice.

The thing is that if you want to RP challenges in your economy or a detailed and realistic economy: why use a calculator? I already RP these things (well, "realistic economy" is really open to debate between economic schools of thought). Why restrict yourself to what your NS feed claims? I see your point that by deliberately misinterpreting the calculators to make a CPE feasible you can create an interesting economy, but;
1. If you don't think CPE NSers are responsible for choosing an appropriate GDP/PC via my method, what makes you think they're responsible enough to purposefully lower their GDP/PC on your method? If you're justifying the interpretation of the NSfeed budget but then offering a solution to unrealistically high GDP/PC for CPE's, why do you think they won't just take the first part and forget the second?
2. Why bother using the calculators? The people who use calculators use them for IC advantage, i.e. "I have a bigger budget than you" -- these sort of people are not going to be really interested in reducing their country's productive power by themselves. The people I've targeted here are those who didn't know any better or were coerced into accepting calcs. But the question stands: if you want to rp a unique, interesting, and detailed economy, why limit yourself to the calculator?

Also, as far as I'm aware, NS feed doesn't incorporate any form of representation of the laffer curve which is a well empirically documented fact.

If you don't mind I might quote your post on the OP as an alternate way of finding an appropriate & realistic GDP/PC if you must use a calculator.

[Vetalia]

I'd have to agree with you.

Most critically, no matter what method you use, the per-capita income figures provided by calculators for socialist countries are badly distorted. A CPE will simply never be able to achieve anything more than moderate to mediocre economic development given current levels of technology unless they've either found a miracle economic system that somehow meets all of the shortfalls of the planned economy or are so far advanced that most economic scarcity and allocation is irrelevant.

So, I'd say calculators are overall best used to provide "flavor" for CPEs (i.e. the condition of different industries and infrastructure, shortages/surpluses, quality of life, etc.) for the economy rather than a useful tool for any kind of actual monetary allocation or level of output. This enhances the quality and potential of economic RPing without allowing people to abuse the calculators in order to overstate the size of their economy and government spending on critical areas.

[Soviet Kruplickistan]

I am somewhat confused as to why the figures for budgetary consumption cannot account for production?

Let's assume that we have a government with total control over all its economic actors. Everything produced within the boundaries of the state is controlled by them. Workers are paid directly in terms of things rather than monetarily. The government, controlling as it does all economic activity, would surely include the cost of production of its capital and consumer goods within its budget.

Now there may be something I have misunderstood, but I don't see how total government control of the economic sphere automatically means no production.

[Soviet Yuran]

Besides the fact that Questers has stated it is also worthy noting that all these consumptions details have been prepared by applets that pick up data from your introductory page and then reprocess them to convert them into numbers .Moreover the details on your introductory page are also prepared by applets.It is this mechanical aspect of these calculators that may give you details very insignificant to your current economic position.For example just by a nations population,tax rate and the state of economy you cannot convert them into data (for example GDP) correct upto an amazing four decimal digits.Economics does not only focus on your money but also on aspects other than money like industrial growth etc..In my view restrain yourself from using calculators.

[Questers]

I am somewhat confused as to why the figures for budgetary consumption cannot account for production?

Let's assume that we have a government with total control over all its economic actors. Everything produced within the boundaries of the state is controlled by them. Workers are paid directly in terms of things rather than monetarily. The government, controlling as it does all economic activity, would surely include the cost of production of its capital and consumer goods within its budget.

Now there may be something I have misunderstood, but I don't see how total government control of the economic sphere automatically means no production.

Copypasta from my OP.

This isn't an economics argument against Socialism. You would know that if you actually read my post. This is a logical argument. When you have a 100% IRT, the calculator calculates 0% private consumption. The only money being spent is being spent by the Government. Then we look at the Government categories and see that actually nothing is spent on production.

[Former Principalities]

This is pure genius. Well done, old bean!!

[Questers]

Karl Popper would be proud of me ._.'

[Former Principalities]

I've lived so long in the dark ages of the calculator. D: Thanks Questers, I've seen the light.

This needs a sticky, pronto.

L3 Communications makes a good point. I have actually been destroying my nation instead of strengthening it. Again, a work of genius.

[Former Principalities]

quote - Are all calculators bad?
If you have to use one, use Sunset's. - quote

Where can one find this calculator?

[Questers]

quote - Are all calculators bad?
If you have to use one, use Sunset's. - quote

Where can one find this calculator?

http://www.sunsetrpg.com/economystatist ... n=Questers its rather different. I would advise making up your own stats but sunset's calculator is good because it shows more detailed figures. It's probably not a coincidence that Sunset is a libertarian -_-' there used to be a good GUSTO one where you inputted %s and possibly nominal figures but it appears to be dead, which is a shame, because these two could really do with beating NSeconomy/NStracker into the ground.

[Allemande]

I'm going to offer some dissent here.

I think that calculators have a great deal of value. Just as we don't generally let people pretend that they have a population of 100 billion people when the engine says they only have 10 million, we should generally expect people to live within the basic WA statistics for their country. Otherwise, you'll have people claiming that their "Imploded" economy is actually "World Benchmark", because "the NS engine is skewed against my socioeconomic ideas, which are obviously the best there can be".

When you're playing at my level - over 6 billion population - you can't take any of the numbers too seriously anyway; yet I'd like to think that those numbers have some meaning, if only to prevent other people from wanking up an ungodly nation because they think they deserve it.

Which brings me to another point: People say that the "problem" is not in the NS "engine", but rather in the calculators. I disagree. If the problem is "realism", it's clearly the NS engine that causes it. NS is a game where hyperbole and absurd situations are the order of the day. 100% tax rates come into play because that's what Max wanted to happen. This is not the real world; rather, it's a parody of the real world, and the engine results are supposed to reflect that.

Therefore, ask yourself whether your thread is meant to be more parody than reality. If parody, go with NSEconomy; if more realistic, go with Sunset. But either way don't take the numbers as gospel.

That said, you should still use them as a basis for "relative wank measurement" in determining who has more resources to pour into any particular RP, just because if you don't it's all going to devolve into pointless member-waving.

[Questers]

That said, you should still use them as a basis for "relative wank measurement" in determining who has more resources to pour into any particular RP, just because if you don't it's all going to devolve into pointless member-waving.

Well I certainly don't disagree with that.

At any rate, what Max originally wanted the game to look like did not include the following (I imagine);
a. Offsite calculators to feed people their budgets which would be used as dick-waving tools.
b. A seven year old roleplay forum that has slowly evolved to value realism.
c. A scenario in which this particular debate would happen.

What Max originally wanted is not relevant to what we should be aiming for as an RP community.

[Lackadaisical2]

pfff hahaaa

no fucking way I'm reading that. I'll let you suck my fucking asshole out before I read all that man. Go fuck yourself.

[Questers]

It's like 1000 words...

[The PeoplesFreedom]

what the fuck?

[Bazalonia]

That said, you should still use them as a basis for "relative wank measurement" in determining who has more resources to pour into any particular RP, just because if you don't it's all going to devolve into pointless member-waving.

Well I certainly don't disagree with that.

At any rate, what Max originally wanted the game to look like did not include the following (I imagine);
a. Offsite calculators to feed people their budgets which would be used as dick-waving tools.
b. A seven year old roleplay forum that has slowly evolved to value realism.
c. A scenario in which this particular debate would happen.

What Max originally wanted is not relevant to what we should be aiming for as an RP community.

Questers, I have to say something just because something wasn't originally intended doesn't mean it's not valuable or bad.

Did Max aim for raiding/defending? Did Max intend for NS to last any more than enough to promote his book?

The point is "realistic" RP is just as valid as Sports RP or "parody" RP (using terms of a previous poster). Calculators are off-site and not officially recognised but are used by people none the less, who are any of us to say "this is not an a proper Nationstates* RP"?

Counting NS/II/Sport forums.

Perhaps the biggest comical thing is that the trade forum perhaps wouldn't even exist without calculators some external form of measuring comparitive size of budgets.

Personally, I don't use calculator's I have an idea of what my nation is and I RP according to that, but it's simple elitism to say that Calculators and using them in RPs is bad. Whether they are 'accurate' or not doesn't matter, you don't have to use them and you don't have to RP with those that do.

NS is a large place, plenty of room for differing styles of RP.

[Questers]

That said, you should still use them as a basis for "relative wank measurement" in determining who has more resources to pour into any particular RP, just because if you don't it's all going to devolve into pointless member-waving.

Well I certainly don't disagree with that.

At any rate, what Max originally wanted the game to look like did not include the following (I imagine);
a. Offsite calculators to feed people their budgets which would be used as dick-waving tools.
b. A seven year old roleplay forum that has slowly evolved to value realism.
c. A scenario in which this particular debate would happen.

What Max originally wanted is not relevant to what we should be aiming for as an RP community.

Questers, I have to say something just because something wasn't originally intended doesn't mean it's not valuable or bad.

Did Max aim for raiding/defending? Did Max intend for NS to last any more than enough to promote his book?

The point is "realistic" RP is just as valid as Sports RP or "parody" RP (using terms of a previous poster). Calculators are off-site and not officially recognised but are used by people none the less, who are any of us to say "this is not an a proper Nationstates* RP"?

Counting NS/II/Sport forums.

Perhaps the biggest comical thing is that the trade forum perhaps wouldn't even exist without calculators some external form of measuring comparitive size of budgets.

Personally, I don't use calculator's I have an idea of what my nation is and I RP according to that, but it's simple elitism to say that Calculators and using them in RPs is bad. Whether they are 'accurate' or not doesn't matter, you don't have to use them and you don't have to RP with those that do.

NS is a large place, plenty of room for differing styles of RP.

That's all good and fine, but in II something that is logically impossible is considered godmod. I have shown in the OP -- without anyone really being able to solidly refute my post -- that the calculators -- or, some calculators -- provide logically impossible results. Therefore they are godmodding. Ultimately, I don't care what people do, but I won't accept someone who has a 100% tax rate and claims to use calculators.

[Allbeama]

Wouldn't a socialist/communist country logically have nationalized industry, that is production owned by the people (in a democratic nation) or possibly an authoritarian oligarchy?

[Stoklomolvi]

Allbeama, the thing with the calculators is that this factor is not taken into account. A country with a 100% ITR returns nothing if there is nothing allotted; that is Questers's argument, if I am not mistaken. To compensate you could shrink your budget by 50-60% and allot that amount to budget sector "production," which would count as "consumption" in a way.

[Questers]

Wouldn't a socialist/communist country logically have nationalized industry, that is production owned by the people (in a democratic nation) or possibly an authoritarian oligarchy?

Re-read the post.

[The Garbage Men]

That's all good and fine, but in II something that is logically impossible is considered godmod. I have shown in the OP -- without anyone really being able to solidly refute my post -- that the calculators -- or, some calculators -- provide logically impossible results. Therefore they are godmodding. Ultimately, I don't care what people do, but I won't accept someone who has a 100% tax rate and claims to use calculators.

Point of Contention 1.

No capital spending in a 100% IRT economy

I've got a question for you. How is the Government spending ANY MONEY AT ALL on things like defense, healthcare, education and law & Order if the government's budget (in an 100% ITR setting) does not include any capital expenditure? These are capital heavy ventures and without capital spending to build (or buy as appropriate) tanks, hospitals, schools and police stations there wouldn't bee anything that anyone could spend money on.

It's been a while but back '05, I bought some stuff from the Portland Iron Works a rather well respected storefront. Back then the assumption was 1/3 of your budget was available for capital purchases per year. Why isn't this continued on today?

Why wouldn't a government incorporate funding for capital purchases into it's budget?

Contention 2

Private Consumption...

It's simply a matter of definition, calculator's like NSEconomy have a rather simple definition of private consumption. Anything that is not bought by or with the governments money. It may not be the official 'correct' definition in terms of Economics but it is a logical and internally consistant one.


Summary:

Definitions and assumptions, each calculator has a different set of assumptions and definitions they use so do each individual who uses it. To say that people who have 100% ITR and use say NSEconomy are wrong because it's not realistic. The question is what is realistic in Nationstates? the game is itself a parody and therefore does not lend itself to 'realism' . Though I think your objection is more against nations in II that are like Bazalonia, 100% ITR , high defense spending and great economies. The people that are the problem game the system and even if Sunset's calculator is the only accepted calculator then it's just a matter of time until they find Sunset's calculator's weaknesses.

EDIT: For openness... I a, Bazalonia, I forgot to log out of this puppet.

[Red Talons]

This is why my nation is a stratocracy... Sure the income tax rate is 100%, yes the populace has no actual money. But the government keeps track of how much they "earn" working, and based on that they can request items once a week. Besides that the standard things are provided, food, shelter and the such. Though the Talons are nomads who live in their ships... so our economy doesnt make sense to begin with...