The Argument Against Calculators -- A Guide, Of Sorts

[Greater Americania]

If you have a 100% tax rate, you're bound to have people who aren't happy that they get little choice on how to use their money in their own lives. Amongst other problems.

Yeah, but irregardless of whether your Government does this or not, if you live by the calculators the calculators still display $0 of consumption, which was one of the most important points [/quote]

Which is an error on behalf of the calculators. The primary problem here is the NS system's taxing methods.

[The Macabees]

http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconom ... viet+Party

Gross Domestic Product: $90,097,960,830,518.52
Government Budget: $93,196,749,282,840.02
Government Expenditures: $90,400,846,804,354.81

Lol.

[Greater Americania]

No, it isn't an argument against the NS system, for the millionth time. It's an argument against people using that system in roleplay. I don't mind or care how calculators or NS do it, what bothers me is how people use it in their RPs.

I disagree. The only error I see on the calculators is the 0% consumption rate.

[ViZion]

GA... note, we aren't talking about the issues. That is gameplay. If we were, you're right, we'd be talking in Gameplay. Which we all know - including Questers. However! That is not the point he is addressing. What he is addressing is a strictly ROLE PLAY-based issue, NOT a game play issue. Two completely separate things.

We are talking about the roleplay system and the usage of calculators to run your government in the roleplay.

[Greater Americania]

Whereas this is a roleplaying forum, he should have at least put a 'OOC:' in his title.

[Bazhaa]

Whereas this is a roleplaying forum, he should have at least put a 'OOC:' in his title.

This is an OOC thread, and its quite evident that it is. It'd be quite confusing to see an IC rant on OOC calculators, eh? There ain't any need.

[Serbian_Soviet_Union]

THE ARGUMENT AGAINST CALCULATORS

What's wrong with calculators?

NS Calculators are webpages that take your NS feed -- the information stored on your NS page, like tax and population, and format it into purportedly usable numbers. Since the dawn of time people have come on NS and said that they have a gigantic military budget because the calculator said so. They claim gigantic economies and prosperous populations because the calculator says so. I intend to prove here that the calculator has always been a nefarious influence on NS RP and that there are key flaws with using calculators in many instances. Firstly, we should look at the NS tax rate, as this is the single most important reason why calculators cannot function.

NS has, built into it, the concept of a "income 100% tax rate", hereby referred to as the the 100% ITR. Many nations have a 100% ITR and the reason for this is simple: they get NS issues which offer on the one hand, not doing anything against a problem -- it might be undereducation, bad roads, whatever -- and the other option which is doing something. NS issues however, although they may say more spending is required, rarely say more taxation will be required. Nations choose the options of "improving" something and then receive an IRT increase. At some point or another, they will have 100% IRT.

What this means is that according to the calculators, the Government collects in income tax 100% of the economy. All private wealth is redistributed. What it means in the context of "the game" though, is that you have a higher budget, and in II, especially important is the military budget, than other players. For the purpose of this calculator we will use The World Soviet Party (referred to as TWSP, although he goes by the ingame name of Osthafen) to demonstrate the problems of a 100% IRT, why it is infeasible, and why, ultimately, using it is a godmod.

http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconom ... viet+Party

Notice that in the top right corner, there is a figure called "Consumption." This is Private Consumption. It is the amount that is consumed that is not consumed by the Government. In economics, Consumption -- i.e., Private Spending is seperated from Government Spending by being labelled C and Government Spending being labelled G. And with a 100% IRT, the Consumption rate of the economy is 0$. There is literally no private spending whatsoever. Let me get the magnitude of this across to you:

If I go to the shops to buy a packet of cigarettes, that is consumption. If I buy a book off amazon, that is consumption. If I buy a car from a dealership, that is consumption. When you, as a private citizen, buy anything, you are adding to the nominal value of national consumption, i.e. the amount of money spent by consumers every year. So we've established that in 100% IRT economies, nothing is spent by private citizens.

This means that everything is spent by the Government. G is 100% and C is 0%.

For a real life, example, in the United States, G is 36.7% and C is 63.3%.

Notice how the budget in the bottom left corner always adds up to 100. It never exceeds that amount but more importantly it's never lower than that amount (unless everything is 0 because G is 0. Even if G is 1%, the percentages of the budget still total to 100%.) So in TWSP's case, 12% of the entire spending of the economy is spent on law and order. Now, this might seem fine to many people. But let's think a little harder.

No capital spending in a 100% IRT economy

The NS Feed's Government budgets, unlike real states where G was enormously high (although never 100%), do not include spending on capital goods and consumer goods. This means that if you have a G of 100%, the Government is not spending any money on the production of capital or consumer goods. Look around you. Everything in your house is either a consumer or a capital good. Money has been spent on its production, i.e. costs of labour, raw materials, R&D, so on and so forth. Let's say you live in a country with 50% IRT. Look around you and that is what you have. Then let's say you live in a country with 100% IRT. Everything disappears.

There are no factories because nothing is spent on their production. There is no furniture, electricity, computers, books, cars. Nothing is spent on their production. In a 100% IRT they do not exist.

But! You cry. But, but, I am spending alot on social welfare!

So? You're giving people money, sure, but what can they buy? Nothing is being produced. They are totally reliant on foreign goods. But nothing is being spent on capital goods in docks, in airports, and in railways. Even if foreign goods arrive, they could not be unloaded.

But I have great hospitals!

No you don't. A hospital bed is a capital good. You aren't spending any money on producing capital goods. You have no hospital beds.

Aha! But I have commerce!

TWSP spends 1% on Commerce. Even if we were to accept that this includes capital and consumer goods, 1% is a tiny amount. Yet, it doesn't! Commerce is the sale of goods, or in this case the money received from the sale of goods. It isn't the production of goods.

Now, the argument against this is that although what I say might be true, you still have monetary values beside your percentages. You still have $ of imports and you still have $ of spending. This doesn't really matter. These are nominal values. I can print off $500 trillion Matt Labunda Dollars from my printer and claim I'm rich. I'm not. Money was created by humans to make barter easier. It doesn't have an intrinsic value. Unless it's backed by something, it has no intrinsic value. And you can't back your currency with something: you aren't producing any consumer or capital goods to back it with! And even if I was wrong there, all it proves is that the calculators are contradictory to realistic, real world economic theories.

To sum up, with a 100% IRT the calculators report that you have 0% consumption. This means no capital goods or consumer goods. It means you are living in the dark ages. Your people must personally labour to create things. You do not have a modern economy. Even East Germany, according to this source, had private consumption.

Now, this doesn't mean calculators are useless if you have a realistic tax rate. You should look though, at Government spending and Private spending %s in real life countries to see how realistic a calculator is. 30% IRT? Go ahead and use a calculator, by all means. 90% IRT? Don't even bother...

Thus ends my argument against calculators.

What's the alternative?

Of course, I'm not saying that TWSP should RP his people living in the dark ages! Quite the opposite! What he should do is look at a real life country and look at their Gross Domestic Product Per Capita. Here is not the place for me to argue my political beliefs and say what level of GDP/PC nations should and shouldn't have. But the way to find your realistic Gross Domestic Product is as follows:

- Find a realistic Gross Domestic Product Per Capita.
- Multiply by your population.

Then to find out how much your Government is spending, take a % of the end result, which is your GDP. Then simply take % out of that for Military, Education, etc. Anyone with a basic education in Mathematics ought to do this. I learnt in the British education system how to do multiplication and percentages before I was 12, prolly even earlier, can't remember that far back tbh.

Questions:

Can't I just say the Government takes 100% and gives some back at the end?
Sorry, no, because Consumption is still $ and Capital/Consumer spending, and therefore production is still $.

Can't I just say that production is factored into Military, Social Welfare, etc etc
Yeah, sure, you can purposefully misread "Social Welfare" to mean "Building coal mines" if I can purposefully misread my population to be 400 billion...

What do you think?

Are all calculators bad?
If you have to use one, use Sunset's.

Why should I trust you?
Well, unless you can logically refute what I'm saying... doesn't matter if you can trust me or not. If the most dishonest person says to me "1+1 is 2" or "America has a border with Canada" it doesn't matter how trustworthy they are, their statements are still correct.

But aren't calculators required otherwise you're godmodding?
No sticky or RP authority has ever said that.

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5547 <<<--- that thread lead to this argument.

[Amazonian Beasts]

No, it isn't an argument against the NS system, for the millionth time. It's an argument against people using that system in roleplay. I don't mind or care how calculators or NS do it, what bothers me is how people use it in their RPs.

I disagree. The only error I see on the calculators is the 0% consumption rate.

Er, if there's 100% income tax, then 100% of all income from private sources goes to the government. Meaning 0% private consumption. What Questers is getting at isn't the calculator; it's transferring such data onto the forum to actually, legitimately play like you have 100% income tax.

[Serbian_Soviet_Union]

You could say that the government has a 100% income tax rate, but then gives it back to you. The government just wants to break a Guinness World Record.

No you can't, because private consumption is still 0$

You contradicted yourself there, since your implying we should just ignore these so called "Nasty Calculators" and yet at the same time a nations income tax is 100% and the person role plays that the people get itleast half of it back, yet they are also under another income which they receive through Social Welfare but your saying it doesn't work that way because according to the calculator the consumption is still %0.000.

[Amazonian Beasts]

You could say that the government has a 100% income tax rate, but then gives it back to you. The government just wants to break a Guinness World Record.

No you can't, because private consumption is still 0$

You contradicted yourself there, since your implying we should just ignore these so called "Nasty Calculators" and yet at the same time a nations income tax is 100% and the person role plays that the people get itleast half of it back, yet they are also under another income which they receive through Social Welfare but your saying it doesn't work that way because according to the calculator the consumption is still %0.000.

...And, SSU, why would any sane government take 100% of the income just to give 50% legitimately back as actual income? If so, that's not 100% income tax. That's 50% income tax. The sane government would just take 50%, and leave the other 50% with the consumer...because, taking the money and giving it back is just a waste of government transfer fees.That's terrible bureaucracy.

If your social welfare is mandated government "stuff" rather than hard money, then they're not actually getting half of it back - and there still is 0% consumption. With 100% income tax, the people don't get their income. They don't get half of it back, because that's 50% tax and a stupid government. 100% income tax = government takes all the income, and no matter the social welfare, the people never see the dollars they earn physically. They don't see the bills, the check. They don't make conscious consumer choices on purchases or investments.

[Questers]

You could say that the government has a 100% income tax rate, but then gives it back to you. The government just wants to break a Guinness World Record.

No you can't, because private consumption is still 0$

You contradicted yourself there, since your implying we should just ignore these so called "Nasty Calculators" and yet at the same time a nations income tax is 100% and the person role plays that the people get itleast half of it back, yet they are also under another income which they receive through Social Welfare but your saying it doesn't work that way because according to the calculator the consumption is still %0.000.

You obviously didn't read my post (or just skimmed it.)

It doesn't matter if people are getting "money" or not, that was never relevant. What was important was that no capital or consumer goods are produced. The people of Zimbabwe got "alot" of money, trillions worth, during 2008 -- but nothing was being produced. By your logic since they were getting alot of money in social welfare their country was very prosperous. Unfortunately we all know it wasn't.

No, it doesn't work that way, because the calculator claims consumption is $0. If you stick with what the calculator says then there is $0 consumption and, since there is no production from the government according to the calculator, nothing is being produced. No consumer goods. No capital goods. (Do you know what a capital good is?)

If someone RPs teh Government "giving back" 50% of their money in a tax rebate then that's fine so long as they;
1. Slash the Government spending figures they get in half as well, since the Government can't take 100%, spend 100%, then give back 50%...
2. RP the effects of this on the population.

But what I am addressing is the problems of a 100% Income Tax. What you're basically doing is agreeing with me but saying people should distort the calculator by saying they give it 50% back. Well, sorry -- whats the point in the calculator if you can change any of the figures you like?

Understand this, please: If you are not spending any money on the production of goods there are going to be no goods in the economy. It doesn't matter how much people receive in their social welfare cheques if there are no goods for them to spend their cheques on!

[Tanaara]

Thank you Questers! Excellent post - and though I loathe economics, this makes sense to me and is something I can use - and I've been useing Sunset ever since I found it - the blackmarket just makes me giggle!

[Questers]

Thank you Questers! Excellent post - and though I loathe economics, this makes sense to me and is something I can use - and I've been useing Sunset ever since I found it - the blackmarket just makes me giggle!

The point was to make it so that you didn't have to understand economics to get why calculators are not just bad economics, but illogical and contradictory when they process a 100% tax rate!

[Trawach]

Questers, once again you've proven your Godliness. Enjoy.

[Saint Clair Island]

We've been saying this for years.

Of course, I've never seen anyone actually claim that the 100% tax rate is accurate, or that they have a 100% tax rate but still maintain a GDP per capita of $38,000, or any of the other ludicrous statistics calculators spit out. Then again, I've always RPed in circles of good RPers, not n00bs (with the possible exception of myself).

The one circumstance in which a 100% tax rate would be acceptable would be with a centrally planned economy, wherein the government takes everything and redistributes it. However, as the NS budget categories seem designed for market economies, I have no idea what a planned economy would look like on a calculator (would most of the money be going into "Administration"? "Social Equality"? "Commerce"?), and I doubt it would manage to achieve a GDPPC of much more than say $5,000.

[Jenrak]

The one circumstance in which a 100% tax rate would be acceptable would be with a centrally planned economy, wherein the government takes everything and redistributes it. However, as the NS budget categories seem designed for market economies, I have no idea what a planned economy would look like on a calculator (would most of the money be going into "Administration"? "Social Equality"? "Commerce"?), and I doubt it would manage to achieve a GDPPC of much more than say $5,000.

Not even the Soviet Union had the capacity for a 100% tax rate. One of the problems with a command economy, especially a state command economy is the fact that for the economy to stay above water, they need to manage everything, and people are human, so problems within the economy on a smaller scale are then visible within the larger scale as it grows exponentially and becomes blown out of proportion. Without the incentive to work for personal gain, people are forced to work sometimes at gunpoint (figuratively speaking), so meeting quotas become very important in command economies. Failure to meet quotas may result in skewing of numbers as local leaders may change numbers, causing problems later on.

A pure state command economy would more than likely translate to a somewhat maxed out Administration, Social Equality and Law and Order departments.

[Questers]

The one circumstance in which a 100% tax rate would be acceptable would be with a centrally planned economy, wherein the government takes everything and redistributes it. However, as the NS budget categories seem designed for market economies, I have no idea what a planned economy would look like on a calculator (would most of the money be going into "Administration"? "Social Equality"? "Commerce"?), and I doubt it would manage to achieve a GDPPC of much more than say $5,000.

Not true. I covered this in the original post.

Much of the time of the USSR's planning boards was spent deciding the ratio of capital:consumer goods that Soviet factories would produce. State consumption in the USSR went in the large part to the production of capital and consumer goods. The point is that the calculators don't have the capacity for this. Nowhere in the Government budget section is there a "Capital goods" or "Consumer goods" or even a "Producton" tab that shows how much the Government is spending on production. This means that if there is $0 private consumption, there is no production whatsoever. Of food, of electricity, or of water.

So less than $5,000 GDP, actually. Since GDP is the total monetary value of all goods produced in an economy expressed either nominally or in relation to prices (PPP), and since in a 100% ITR NS economy there is no production, GDP is logically $0.

Incidentally, I actually covered this in the post; even East Germany had private consumption. No country has ever had 0$ private consumption.

Incidentally, this problem would not exist if the NS Government budgets had a method of accounting for production. They don't. In a 100% ITR economy, nothing is being produced because nothing is being spent on production because it's physically impossible for production to be derived from the Government budget.

Oh, I'm loving this.

[Layarteb]

Calculators are more like a loose guide to what you could be getting at whatever settings you've given to your nation but, unfortunately, a lot of those settings are set completely arbitrarily. It's best to realistically figure out what your own tax rate is based on your country and what not and developing something from there.

[Saint Clair Island]

The one circumstance in which a 100% tax rate would be acceptable would be with a centrally planned economy, wherein the government takes everything and redistributes it. However, as the NS budget categories seem designed for market economies, I have no idea what a planned economy would look like on a calculator (would most of the money be going into "Administration"? "Social Equality"? "Commerce"?), and I doubt it would manage to achieve a GDPPC of much more than say $5,000.

Not true. I covered this in the original post.

Much of the time of the USSR's planning boards was spent deciding the ratio of capital:consumer goods that Soviet factories would produce. State consumption in the USSR went in the large part to the production of capital and consumer goods. The point is that the calculators don't have the capacity for this. Nowhere in the Government budget section is there a "Capital goods" or "Consumer goods" or even a "Producton" tab that shows how much the Government is spending on production. This means that if there is $0 private consumption, there is no production whatsoever. Of food, of electricity, or of water.

So less than $5,000 GDP, actually. Since GDP is the total monetary value of all goods produced in an economy expressed either nominally or in relation to prices (PPP), and since in a 100% ITR NS economy there is no production, GDP is logically $0.

Incidentally, I actually covered this in the post; even East Germany had private consumption. No country has ever had 0$ private consumption.

Incidentally, this problem would not exist if the NS Government budgets had a method of accounting for production. They don't. In a 100% ITR economy, nothing is being produced because nothing is being spent on production because it's physically impossible for production to be derived from the Government budget.

Oh, I'm loving this.

Oh. I was thinking "in general", not "NS" -- a real life economy could theoretically have a 100% tax rate -- although I'll be among the first to admit that I know nothing about economics.

But yes, the government budget allocation in NS is limited to the ten or so categories in the XML feeds, meaning that planned economies will have zero production on that account -- unless they deviate from the calculator/XML data and construct their own government budget, which was your point. Right, got it. >.<

[The Macabees]

Oh. I was thinking "in general", not "NS" -- a real life economy could theoretically have a 100% tax rate -- although I'll be among the first to admit that I know nothing about economics.

It couldn't, because there would be no production of final consumer goods.

[Saint Clair Island]

Oh. I was thinking "in general", not "NS" -- a real life economy could theoretically have a 100% tax rate -- although I'll be among the first to admit that I know nothing about economics.

It couldn't, because there would be no production of final consumer goods.

I understood that 100% tax rate meant that nobody would be able to purchase anything or own any property. However, the government could use the tax money to build factories and electric plants and such, force people to staff them, and distribute the products.

This can't be done in NS since the game engine doesn't have a production category for the government to spend money on, but I'm sure there are theories of moneyless economies and completely collectivized economies that, potentially, on a small enough scale, could work in real life -- even if it wasn't particularly desirable, useful, or profitable in comparison with normal market economies.

[Third Spanish States]

http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=The+World+Soviet+Party

Gross Domestic Product: $90,097,960,830,518.52
Government Budget: $93,196,749,282,840.02
Government Expenditures: $90,400,846,804,354.81

Lol.

It is explainable: fiat money. However, if taken literally such "Lolwut economy" calculators sometimes churn, it would mean that it would be cheaper to lit fireplaces with currency than with logs.

The problem are the people who seek a 100% tax rate with the purpose of justifying their purchase of 300 million warplanes in a storefront later on. I don't need to even mention how a NS with 100% tax rate and 60% of the taxes going into the military would be: North Korea would be a paragon for developed nations in comparison.

In other words, there are obviously people who use calculators and purportedly answer to Issues to number-wank their NSes.

[Tolvan]

I have an in game tax rate of 0%, but I RP as having low income taxes (about 5% to 10%) with most government revenue being derived from property taxes, as the ownership of land is the primary metic of wealth in the Commonwealth.

[Danona]

It doesn't matter if people are getting "money" or not, that was never relevant. What was important was that no capital or consumer goods are produced. The people of Zimbabwe got "alot" of money, trillions worth, during 2008 -- but nothing was being produced. By your logic since they were getting alot of money in social welfare their country was very prosperous. Unfortunately we all know it wasn't.

I think you are getting confused by semantics. An aggregate expenditures chart (Y = C + I + G + Xn) Does not measure WHAT is produced, it measures WHO spends the money.

The government can and certainly does produce 'capital' [investment] goods when it builds electric plants, roads, schools, etc. It just isn't PRIVATE investment.

I'm not saying a 100% IRT system here on NS is realistic (It most certainly is not) but it does not mean that nothing gets produced or manufactured.

The issues system really does put the cart before the horse - we should get sliders for dictating things like tax rates and C/I/G. The issues should come after that determination is made - not before. Oh well.

[Danona]

http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=The+World+Soviet+Party

Gross Domestic Product: $90,097,960,830,518.52
Government Budget: $93,196,749,282,840.02
Government Expenditures: $90,400,846,804,354.81

Lol.

It is explainable: fiat money. However, if taken literally such "Lolwut economy" calculators sometimes churn, it would mean that it would be cheaper to lit fireplaces with currency than with logs.

The problem are the people who seek a 100% tax rate with the purpose of justifying their purchase of 300 million warplanes in a storefront later on. I don't need to even mention how a NS with 100% tax rate and 60% of the taxes going into the military would be: North Korea would be a paragon for developed nations in comparison.

In other words, there are obviously people who use calculators and purportedly answer to Issues to number-wank their NSes.

The system also screws socialist countries - if you play the issues as a straight moderate socialist, you end up with a 100% IRT and a crappy economy, which is most certainly not realistic either.