An Examination of Oktotheio (Closed, TG for Entry)

[Sombreland]

“So you actively encourage promiscuity?” Gaves murmured. “What about the benefits of marriage to raise families? Children, after all, are best raised by a father and mother, who are supported by their extended family, as well as by neighbours and teachers and so on..”

“Ah, that does bring up another point,” said Prince Galo. “Are there many people here who like to have the option of private intimacy? And what counts as private?”

[Oktotheio]

"Oh, we believe that there's no one right way to raise kids, so our family units are much more flexible, it could be a man and a woman, two men, two women, a mix of three adults and so on. As for privacy, I believe at least 10% of the population want that option, with the definition being 'any location where a third party could not reasonably be expected to accidently see or hear you or your partners'." Berenice replied. "...Wait, was that last bit too technical?"

[Sombreland]

"Obviously there are widows, orphans, widowers and so on," said Gaves. "But that does not mean that exceptions disprove the rule! Clearly, the ideal is a man and a woman, married, and their children. Of course now and then orphans or widows or widowers have their grief and loss, and must be treated with compassion. Grandparents or aunts and uncles end up raising children. But that does not mean that it is not preferable that parents should raise their own children."

"I would like to ask," said Prince Galo, "This question: it is being presumed...this food is quite delicious, by the way, is it not, gentlemen?"

"Very delicious. One thing we might consider is having some of your restaurants in our country if the trade deal goes through," said Andeson with enthusiasm.

"And would the staff be dressed as much as the folk here?" asked General Pron with a twinkle in his eye.

"I have to admit, I would like to try it myself," said Andeson. "Since the ladies were kind enough to suggest that my belly would not be disdained, it is an interesting thought to imagine say going to the beach and being as free as in one's own dressing room!"

Pron blushed. "I would be too embarrassed..."

Galo laughed and raised his glass, "A salute to you ladies; you have picked a fine menu for us to choose from, and it is appreciated. But I was going to say, we are presuming a great deal! We are presuming about you offending others! But what offends you about foreigners? What about our culture might outrage you?"

[Oktotheio]

"Oh, thank you so much, you're too nice..." Berenice blushed again, but this time it was the good kind of embarrassed as the women also raised their glasses. "Um, as for offences, there isn't really too many since we're so inclusive, but if there's one thing we just don't get it's choosing to not have any intercourse. Now, not having the desire for it is totally fine, we don't have a problem with that, but when someone does and yet they still don't do it, that's when we have a hard time understanding."
Tasia then spoke up, adding "If I may speak personally, something about some foreigners that bothers me is when they have a culture of pretty much treating women like objects, most of my colleagues here would just silently take it, but I can't help but get mad about it, it's so disrespectful."

[Sombreland]

"Oh, thank you so much, you're too nice..." Berenice blushed again, but this time it was the good kind of embarrassed as the women also raised their glasses. "Um, as for offences, there isn't really too many since we're so inclusive, but if there's one thing we just don't get it's choosing to not have any intercourse. Now, not having the desire for it is totally fine, we don't have a problem with that, but when someone does and yet they still don't do it, that's when we have a hard time understanding."

"It is self discipline," said Gaves quietly. ""For example: a young couple are attracted to one another, and become engaged through the planning of their marriage by their families and officials of the Ministry of Divinity. They might have great desire, but they resist temptation, because they do not wish to become impure. Moreover, even when married, and when intimacy is encouraged, they do not let themselves become tempted by other people. Of course not everyone is so abstemious...but they should be."

Tasia then spoke up, adding "If I may speak personally, something about some foreigners that bothers me is when they have a culture of pretty much treating women like objects, most of my colleagues here would just silently take it, but I can't help but get mad about it, it's so disrespectful."

"Treating women like objects? I do not understand," said Prince Galo. "I realize that some cultures treat women as though they are the same as men--some of our allies in the KTO do this--other cultures, like your own, seem to prefer power being in the hands of women--and some outright mistreat women. In our culture, we believe that men and women are different. Women, even those of the military caste, do not serve in the military, for we believe that it is in a woman's nature to care for homes and others. There are some who fulfill functions of state, but it is relatively rare."

[Oktotheio]

"It is self discipline," said Gaves quietly. ""For example: a young couple are attracted to one another, and become engaged through the planning of their marriage by their families and officials of the Ministry of Divinity. They might have great desire, but they resist temptation, because they do not wish to become impure. Moreover, even when married, and when intimacy is encouraged, they do not let themselves become tempted by other people. Of course not everyone is so abstemious...but they should be."

"Ah, I see..." Berenice responded thoughtfully. "But this concept of 'purity', it's not something most of us are familiar with. Why hold back if you have the desire, so long as there is consent and you do not overindulge then no-one will think less of you. ...Oh, but then again maybe our beliefs regarding clothing are comparable, from what you've said I imagine you'd view a couple who were intimate before marriage similarly to how we'd view someone who wore clothes."

"Treating women like objects? I do not understand," said Prince Galo. "I realize that some cultures treat women as though they are the same as men--some of our allies in the KTO do this--other cultures, like your own, seem to prefer power being in the hands of women--and some outright mistreat women. In our culture, we believe that men and women are different. Women, even those of the military caste, do not serve in the military, for we believe that it is in a woman's nature to care for homes and others. There are some who fulfill functions of state, but it is relatively rare."

"Hmm, but that's just it." Tasia sighed. "What I meant to say is 'when they don't treat women like people', and while from your statement it seems, if I am not misunderstanding your words, that your people are not like that, I must confess that it still saddens me to hear that they don't consider women just as capable of leading troops or holding political power as men."

[Sombreland]

"Ah, I see..." Berenice responded thoughtfully. "But this concept of 'purity', it's not something most of us are familiar with. Why hold back if you have the desire, so long as there is consent and you do not overindulge then no-one will think less of you. ...Oh, but then again maybe our beliefs regarding clothing are comparable, from what you've said I imagine you'd view a couple who were intimate before marriage similarly to how we'd view someone who wore clothes."

"I do not think that you understand," said Gaves, leaning forward. Prince Galo found this fascinating; the pure and noble Gaves, leaning towards a woman bare from above the table's edge as her mother had birthed her, talking earnestly and philosophically! This would be retold, he felt with some degree of pleasure. "You see, purity is similar to when one is trying to make something. If you are trying to make a medicine, for instance, it cannot contain impurities! Or if you are trying to produce good wine, a little bit off and it becomes bad wine. I suspect that your people see what is natural as inherently good. We do not. Civilized people must overcome nature in order to be able to be wise and good.

"Now, on the other hand, it is very interesting that you suggest that seeing people clothed for you is like seeing people being intimate in public might be for us. That might be to say, strange, improper and outrageous, offensive to society. Is that how you see people covered up?"

"Hmm, but that's just it." Tasia sighed. "What I meant to say is 'when they don't treat women like people', and while from your statement it seems, if I am not misunderstanding your words, that your people are not like that, I must confess that it still saddens me to hear that they don't consider women just as capable of leading troops or holding political power as men."

"Why? Women are left free for gentler things," said Prince Galo. "For child rearing, healing, for organizing and maintaining households. Some women, yes, do wield political power, but that is mostly because they find themselves at the head of great families. But..perhaps General Pron might weigh in on how women fare in military matters?"

"Gladly, sir," said General Pron. "Men and women are physically different. On average, comparing the average man to the average woman, he is taller, stronger, with denser bones and a greater amount of willingness to be readily violent. This must be balanced against the average woman, who is generally less strong and with less dense bones, and less naturally inclined towards violence and risk taking. Added to that: women are the ones who bear children, and are vital for the rearing of very young children. It is, according to our traditions, unwise to send women to war."

[Oktotheio]

"I do not think that you understand," said Gaves, leaning forward...

Berenice thought for another moment, then replied "Alright, I see your point, but the way we view the world that kind of thing doesn't apply to people, as in, in our philosophy there isn't anything that truly compares that needs to be 'overcome', as you put it, in order to be virtuous."

"Well yes, strange and improper is about right, 'outrageous and offensive' though is a little too far..."

"Why? Women are left free for gentler things," said Prince Galo...

"Right, that is undeniably true..." Tasia admitted, adding "Personally I think that makes it more impressive that we women can stand alongside men despite those biological disadvantages, but I feel this is something we'll have to agree to disagree on before I let my emotions get the better of me and cause me to make a mockery of my station..."

[Sombreland]

"Well yes, strange and improper is about right, 'outrageous and offensive' though is a little too far..."

"There appears to be little that offends your folk," observed Gaves. "Would you be very much surprised if you learned that in Sombreland, everyone is what you would call heterosexual, and what we would call normal? That promiscuity is considered shameful, and that while it is practiced, it is done in secret with shame attached to it?" Prince Galo gave a curious smile in response to this.

"Right, that is undeniably true..." Tasia admitted, adding "Personally I think that makes it more impressive that we women can stand alongside men despite those biological disadvantages, but I feel this is something we'll have to agree to disagree on before I let my emotions get the better of me and cause me to make a mockery of my station..."

"Why should women suffer, physically, for taking part in combat arms? Women of the military caste do serve their country in uniform, in the following ways: as nurses, as administrators, and sometimes as part of logistics and labour units. There is no doubting that women are intelligent and useful..." observed General Pron, smiling at Tasia. It was a friendly smile; clearly he was beginning to like her.

"It was attempted, you know...what was that old fellow's name, the one that urged we try equal treatment of all prospective youth?" the General continued, glancing at Gaves.

Gaves, interrupted briefly in his conversation with Berenice, glanced at him and said, "That was Otalo, the philosopher and academic; he had been one of King Orian the VII's teachers. He had proposed that it should be tested, in academies throughout the land, that girls might compete with boys is raised with exactly the same goals in mind: to train them to be leaders within the military and courtly castes."

"Thank you, Mr. Gaves," said General Pron. "So it was found that when women carried reduced packs equivalent to those of men, they suffered damage to their joints and tissues. It was found that when they were subject to the same conditions of combat training, that they lacked, on average, based on even the best recruits, that they lacked upper body strength. The courage of those chosen was there, true enough, but it caused them physical damage. Furthermore, when it was tried more recently, during the present king's reign, even in combat arms such as in air wings, women could be decent pilots but would lose their menstrual cycles when subjected to too many G forces. It was concluded that the risk was too great.

"With respect, Miss, your combatants are not really combatants...they are police in a very safe country."

[Oktotheio]

"There appears to be little that offends your folk," observed Gaves. "Would you be very much surprised if you learned that in Sombreland, everyone is what you would call heterosexual, and what we would call normal? That promiscuity is considered shameful, and that while it is practiced, it is done in secret with shame attached to it?" Prince Galo gave a curious smile in response to this.

"No, it wouldn't actually, it seems most nations are like that in fact, the people only laying with those of the opposite sex, only after marriage, and even then just a hint of it has them reeling in horror or disgust... In that way we're totally unlike anywhere else on this planet." Berenice lamented.

"Why should women suffer, physically, for taking part in combat arms?...

"Ah, I- I see..." Tasia replied reluctantly. "Those roles are better than nothing I guess, and at least you did try to give them a chance... You're right about the police though, as we said, they're the last line of defence and we hope to never need to rely on them alone against outsiders."

[Sombreland]

"No, it wouldn't actually, it seems most nations are like that in fact, the people only laying with those of the opposite sex, only after marriage, and even then just a hint of it has them reeling in horror or disgust... In that way we're totally unlike anywhere else on this planet." Berenice lamented.

"Oh, no, what I mean is that everyone in Sombreland is normal,"' said Gaves. "There are no homosexuals, lesbians or transsexuals in Sombreland. But why does this make you sad, Madame?"

"Ah, I- I see..." Tasia replied reluctantly. "Those roles are better than nothing I guess, and at least you did try to give them a chance... You're right about the police though, as we said, they're the last line of defence and we hope to never need to rely on them alone against outsiders."

"Better than nothing?" exclaimed General Pron. "Do you not realize that we have been most progressive in permitting women of the military caste to serve in the military at all? Next you will be suggesting that we do recruitment from the general population!" he laughed at this; and Galo and Andeson joined in, for his laugh was infectious.

"What is this obsession with men and women having identical occupations though?" asked Andeson, his tone earnestly curious.

[Oktotheio]

"Ah, sorry, that wasn't very professional of me..." Berenice blushed again. "Let me reword it, see, all that you said just now, you say it's 'normal' but that's just your definition of the word, and ours is pretty much the opposite with only a few other nations having a even slightly similar 'normal'."

"Ah, is- is that so?" wondered Tasia, awkwardly laughing along unsure of what was so funny, before answering "It's- it's just accepted as standard here, another part of the normal Berenice mentioned."

[Sombreland]

"Ah, sorry, that wasn't very professional of me..." Berenice blushed again. "Let me reword it, see, all that you said just now, you say it's 'normal' but that's just your definition of the word, and ours is pretty much the opposite with only a few other nations having a even slightly similar 'normal'."

Andeson and Pron thought she looked very pretty when she blushed. Neither could help but smile.

"It is not simply our definition, though," said Gaves. "Homosexuality is abnormal. It is normal for people to be drawn each to the opposite sex, in order to produce families and the best conditions for rearing them. In nature, it is also abnormal. It may occur, but it is a kind of morbidity. It is a perversion of what is natural, let alone what is spiritually true. Also, such persons are known to be perverse, wanting what they ought not to have. Their harmony is disturbed, and how could it not be evident that it is contrary to the proper harmony with one's own ancestors?"

"Ah, is- is that so?" wondered Tasia, awkwardly laughing along unsure of what was so funny, before answering "It's- it's just accepted as standard here, another part of the normal Berenice mentioned."

"Well, your country does not have soldiers, so how could you know?" General Pron said reasonably. "You don't have paratroopers carrying 200 pound packs, or artillery gunners. Your normalcy is a deliberate policy position that is anti-war and relies on other nations to defend you. I do not want to seem insulting at all; far from it. By the way: I am curious as to why your country is so anti-war..."

[Oktotheio]

"So then, does that mean our queen is abnormal and disturbed for being married to a woman? Am I that too for having had relations with her? I'm sorry Sir Gaves, but what each of our nations view to be natural and moral is totally opposed." Berenice responded as calmly as she could.

"Oh, well that's simple." Tasia replied. "Our queen simply believes conflict to be a pointless waste of life where all involved lose, and as such refuses to even consider approving any war declaration, instead opting to engage in diplomacy like this." "And if they don't want to talk, me and my agents have ways of making it so that they'll want to talk~" Despina chimed in with a smirk.

[Sombreland]

“Yes, what each of our countries has as laws, ways of life, and morals are opposed,” replied Gaves. “That should be perfectly clear at a glance, just looking at how different we are. Even in other ways. Your city here is almost entirely modern and full of tall buildings like this one just for shopping and dining. We are very different. But our mission is not to try to get you to change your ways, Madam; it is to see if there is any justification for hostility, and, if there is not, to see what degree of relations is possible.

“My own recommendation, to be honest, is that your country is very friendly and hodpitable, and that trade and information exchanges may be beneficial. However, representing the Ministry of Divinity, I will also warn of the likelihood of moral corruption and advise a ban on tourism for Sombreland subjects, as well as limitations on tourism from your country. As I say, we have no desire to change your ways.”

Replying to Tasia, General Pron replied, “I presume, Madam, that you mean armed conflict? In this, we are not quite in agreement, but our approach may surprise you. While we do have military forces, the pursuit of harmony always seeks balance. This is why our leadership comes from the courtly caste, not the military caste.

“Recently, when we entered the Gyzantians Civil War, even though Royal Marines and our carrier task force were deployed, they were used to get the warring parties to a cease fire. To support,” he grew a little choked up a moment, and then cleared his throat, “The Princess-Regent. Peace was established. But our readiness to make war made it possible.”

“Anyway,” said Prince Galo cheerfully, “It is a wonderful example, to us, of how our way works. Even by your own admission, your female led society abhors the idea of war so much you prefer not to even be ready for it. So why should we have female combat personnel?”

[Oktotheio]

"Hmm, I guess those are acceptable terms..." Tasia responded to Gaves' comments, then replied to the General with "Ah, that's good to hear.", and finally turned to Prince Galo and through a fake smile said "Righttt... Why indeed?"

[Sombreland]

"I'm noticing some discomfort," said Prince Galo. "It strikes me that your culture, indeed your country, is made up of mostly very liberal, left leaning people. Albeit ones that have strongly established traditions that are strongly adhered to. As do we. So our question would be: are you still interested in recommending that we pursue relations to your Queen and her government?"

[Oktotheio]

"Of course Prince." Berenice spoke up so that Tasia could recompose herself, adding with a smile "Just because we don't see eye to eye on absolutely everything doesn't mean we can't be allies, so let's take a break for a moment to cool off and let me show just great the view is from up here~" while gesturing towards one of the many windows.

[Sombreland]

"Of course Prince." Berenice spoke up so that Tasia could recompose herself, adding with a smile "Just because we don't see eye to eye on absolutely everything doesn't mean we can't be allies, so let's take a break for a moment to cool off and let me show just great the view is from up here~" while gesturing towards one of the many windows.

“Cool off…I would imagine that they are cooler than we…” murmured Gaves.

“I do not think that they mean temperature,” murmured Andeson back, as he got up to take a look at the view.

“Most excellent ,” said Prince Galo. “Perhaps you could indicate some of the better sights to look at?”

“We do not have skyscrapers in our country, and I’m afraid that they do not necessarily look like what they are for,” added General Pron. He decided to try to relax and look at the ladies, and found himself fascinated by the way that they were all different, and yet similar. In this, he was similar to Prince Galo, accepting that these folk were very different. He was not simply drawn to their attractiveness, but how they moved in a space with other people, what hidden protocols there were. Though it would not be his duty to decide on diplomatic or trade matters, there might be a military agreement. It would be one of his duties to make recommendations on how personnel from Sombreland should comport themselves here.

One of his chief observations was that these people were not truly liberal. They appeared pragmatic at a glance, but tradition was clearly more important than they liked to let on. Furthermore, it was most important, clearly, to be aware that they saw themselves as being very open minded.

Prince Galo, for his part, was not letting the illusion that these were attractive, unclothed women distract him. These were high status people, chosen to deal with the situation. He had no idea of what intrigues had placed them there, but they would exist regardless.

[Oktotheio]

Standing by the window with them, Berenice pointed out over the cityscape that was now illumined by the setting sun towards another very tall building several blocks away that was a sparkling blue colour. "This tower is actually the 2nd tallest in the nation at 166 meters tall, and that one over there is the Lapis Tower, the first tallest at 232 meters~" she beamed proudly before moving her hand over to the left slightly and continuing "And if you look over a bit, way off in the distance, you can also see the royal palace~!", a sight that would be hard to miss despite it being much shorter than the skyscrapers, as even from this distance it shone a brilliant gold in the fading light much more than either of them.

[Sombreland]

Prince Galo took out his glasses and put them on. “Very impressive. Extraordinary feats of engineering. What is the Lapis Tower for, exactly?”

“Is your royal palace mostly a palace of state, or is it also a centre of worship?” asked Gaves.

“I think I have identified one of the main jobs in this city…elevator maintenance,” joked Andeson. “Only the most dedicated person would climb all those stairs.”

“I wonder if anyone has tried.” General Pron wondered.

[Oktotheio]

"Ah, there's a shopping mall like there is here on the ground and underground floors, but all the rest are offices." Berenice responded, continuing "It's both actually, as well as where the National Harems' meet, it's a pretty big place~ And I'm not sure if anyone has actually tried, but I'm sure it's only a matter of time~"

[Sombreland]

"Well. Lovely view," said Prince Galo. He found it all fascinating. Lovely was not quite the right word; striking and impressive were, but he had the feeling that the ladies were drained from all the questioning.

Gaves thought the view was appalling.It was overwhelmingly industrialized, commercialized, and was linked, in his thoughts, to liberalism and vulgarity. However, he kept his thoughts to himself.

Prince Galo turned to the ladies. "That was a very good meal, by the way. Surprisingly filling. Simple and yet many flavours, very good. Do you have tea or coffee after meals to relax, perhaps a little liqueur?" he smiled. "One thing we have not talked much about is other elements of culture. In my country, this would all have been a bit trying, but then we would have known one another a little better. Talking business during a meal! Most shocking," he laughed. "I know so little of your country though, what it's festivals are like, how pastimes are common among your folk, what your literature and art are like...all the things that people live for."

"The lemons for example..." Andeson pondered. "I am willing to guess that there are holidays about lemons, would I be right? Blossoming, planting, harvest?"

[Oktotheio]

"Oh yes, sometimes we have lemon wine or Limoncello afterwards~" Berenice beamed before looking at the Assistant Director and replying "Indeed, there are huge parties for all of those, with the biggest being on June 9th."

[Sombreland]

"So," said Prince Galo, "We have to ponder on our conversation at some point, the four of us, and prepare briefing notes for our government. In general, I am happy to say that we will make a very strong recommendation against supporting any warlike actions on the part of our alliance. We will, instead, recommend either avoiding your nation altogether, pursuing neutrality, or exploring trade relations. This is clearly a prosperous society and trade is worth considering.

"As for ourselves, however, you have spoken about military alliance and trade relations. We will have to discuss the possibility and communicate with our government on it. We ourselves do not make policy, we recommend. Were there other items to discuss, or on the itinerary for today? Or may we retire to our accommodations? Of course if there are other items to discuss or other plans you had for the day, we are at your disposal. We would also like to know when an audience with Her Majesty is possible."