Anarchy in Rome, A Sack Amidst Plague [MT-PMT, CLOSED, OOC]

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

The private talk I want to have with Murat and D'Eusse involves away to oppose Antichrist Soter. Namely, TS wants to pledge full support to Murat's claim to Naples and convince D'Eusse to be TS' Antipope. The Tsarina sees a chance to exploit division.

IC-wise, TS could not follow the Borgian See under Sites. For the same of keeping me in your game, Soter can't become Popess.

Murat has been officially cast aside, and d'Euse wouldn't be interested. He's a spymaster and torturer. The type who has no consistent accent and has ominous monologues about ladders.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

Murat has been officially cast aside, and d'Euse wouldn't be interested. He's a spymaster and torturer. The type who has no consistent accent and has ominous monologues about ladders.

Murat wouldn't be cast aside if he joined TS in backing an Antipope.

Alternately, there's one other solution to keep TS in, IC-wise: for Soter to declare she is a woman and refer to herself as Popess.

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

Murat has been officially cast aside, and d'Euse wouldn't be interested. He's a spymaster and torturer. The type who has no consistent accent and has ominous monologues about ladders.

Murat wouldn't be cast aside if he joined TS in backing an Antipope.

Alternately, there's one other solution to keep TS in, IC-wise: for Soter to declare she is a woman and refer to herself as Popess.

Call the pontiff whatever you like, but all official documents and titling from the church and state will refer to the head of the church as Pope. The only time Soter would deign to fall back into their former life as a female will be when the "Prince of Latium" is conceived and born.

Murat, however, may be interested. He like his namesake doesn't have much forethought. Trying to make him King of Naples, however, is a dangerous game. The Spanish Royal House expects to retain Naples in their patrimony, and the Bourbons of France will not tolerate a Bonapartist in Italy and they have claims to Naples of their own.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

TS would back Murat on the condition that he renounces all claims, and the claims of his sons, to the Borgian French Throne and respect the alliance between Borgian Spain and Naples.

As for Soter, TurtleShroom would withdraw their Antipope if Soter declared herself to be the woman that she is and would instead declare a Sede Vacante.

TS is also considering approaching Allanea to broker a deal that removes Soter in favor of D'Euse or, frankly, any other candidate. Allanea could kill Soter and take the blame for removing slavers, while TS would agree to commit directly to joining in the Borgian Guinea war effort. TS would also pay extra funds and weapons to the CAPINTERN alliance.

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

TS would back Murat on the condition that he renounces all claims, and the claims of his sons, to the Borgian French Throne and respect the alliance between Borgian Spain and Naples.

As for Soter, TurtleShroom would withdraw their Antipope if Soter declared herself to be the woman that she is and would instead declare a Sede Vacante.

TS is also considering approaching Allanea to broker a deal that removes Soter in favor of D'Euse or, frankly, any other candidate. Allanea could kill Soter and take the blame for removing slavers, while TS would agree to commit directly to joining in the Borgian Guinea war effort. TS would also pay extra funds and weapons to the CAPINTERN alliance.

Murat has no claim to the French throne to renounce. The original Joachim Murat was Napoleon's friend and marshal, whom he placed on the throne of Naples and Sicily, a throne previously belonging to the House of Bourbon. My Murat has similar claims, and being their heir to a revolutionary monarchy, will not be tolerated by the Bourbons on their doorstep.

Soter is many things. Not wholly stable (Marian visions and all that), ambitious, avaricious, aloof. Appeaser is not one of them. He is uncompromising, stubborn, and blunt. Very much proud, hence choosing the Greek for "saviour" as his papal name. Hence the short marriage. He would never indignify himself by submitting to such outrageous requests. He'd probably insult the one who proposed them. This is why Murat was delegated to attend lol.

Behind The Scene Fun Fact:

I'd never intended on Soter seeing the whole way through. That year long hiatus and university (which I start again in a few weeks) threw a wrench into my long term plans. My original idea of an ending was for Soter to crush Naples, but upon returning to Rome, would find the city closed to him. The Coalition and Commune would've demanded an ecumenical council in which the young Paolo was elected beyond his own choice as Pontiff. The Ecumenical Council of Viterbo would've been its own RP.

But yeah, that's definitely gonna remain in the "things that could have been folder". I'm winding down the RP so I can avoid another hiatus. Soter II's pontificate is all but set in stone as of now.

[Allanea]

TS would back Murat on the condition that he renounces all claims, and the claims of his sons, to the Borgian French Throne and respect the alliance between Borgian Spain and Naples.

As for Soter, TurtleShroom would withdraw their Antipope if Soter declared herself to be the woman that she is and would instead declare a Sede Vacante.

TS is also considering approaching Allanea to broker a deal that removes Soter in favor of D'Euse or, frankly, any other candidate. Allanea could kill Soter and take the blame for removing slavers, while TS would agree to commit directly to joining in the Borgian Guinea war effort. TS would also pay extra funds and weapons to the CAPINTERN alliance.

I just came here because I wanted to say I was going to commend Turtleshroom's IC post, maybe have Nizhinsky post about it or something.

But this is also awesome.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

If D'Euse can't kill Soter, then Murat might. If Murat can't, then TurtleShroom can.

If TurtleShroom can't, then Allanea will.

Either way, absent cloak-and-dagger assassinations, TS won't establish D'Euse as an Antipope if one of two conditions are met:

• Soter admits that she is a woman. Doing this will cause TS to enter Sede Vacante and end the dispute.
• Soter is not elected Pope.

Regardless, the Protestant state of TurtleShroom doesn't care about papists talking about leaving the Pope to his own. The ascension of Soter will cause the TS Rite to declare D'Euse the true Borgian Pope, to the point of Cardinal Icfella himself placing a TS-minted Papal Tiara.

Worse, because TS has no allegiance to the Bishop of Rome, they will engage in a very vicious and hostile campaign against the Borgian See and her allies, starting with backing Haiti.

TurtleShroom's sole goal will be to humiliate Antichrist Soter, and only Antichrist Soter, through her entire "reign" as an Antichrist. The fanatic Catholics demand nothing less than getting garroted by a cheese wire and all TurtleShroomian Christians want her head, either literally or figuratively. This could even lead to legislative action. There is no question that it will cause an immediate embargo, with the sole exception of Amalfi.

Not only that, TurtleShroom will also double down and give the Haitians an opportunity to humiliate the Borgian kings: they will establish a Third Haitian Empire (or whatever equivalent this Haiti has), anointing an Emperor of the Haitian resistance's choosing. Not only does Haiti deserve freedom, the staunch monarchists of TurtleShroom believe that Haiti deserves beauty and glory. TS has an entire Monarchist Society (which works with the Dixie aristocrats' high culture society) dedicated to helping monarchies get set up.

This Haitian Emperor will be used by propaganda (hopefully with Allanean help) to unite the disparate gangs and guerilla cells against the Borgian menace.

I'll start working on that soon. Either way, the TSSSS is going to Portauprince with a crown and an armored oil tanker's worth of weapons.

All we need is Allanea to escourt us.

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

If D'Euse can't kill Soter, then Murat might. If Murat can't, then TurtleShroom can.

If TurtleShroom can't, then Allanea will.

Either way, absent cloak-and-dagger assassinations, TS won't establish D'Euse as an Antipope if one of two conditions are met:

• Soter admits that she is a woman. Doing this will cause TS to enter Sede Vacante and end the dispute.
• Soter is not elected Pope.

Regardless, the Protestant state of TurtleShroom doesn't care about papists talking about leaving the Pope to his own. The ascension of Soter will cause the TS Rite to declare D'Euse the true Borgian Pope, to the point of Cardinal Icfella himself placing a TS-minted Papal Tiara.

Worse, because TS has no allegiance to the Bishop of Rome, they will engage in a very vicious and hostile campaign against the Borgian See and her allies, starting with backing Haiti.

TurtleShroom's sole goal will be to humiliate Antichrist Soter, and only Antichrist Soter, through her entire "reign" as an Antichrist. The fanatic Catholics demand nothing less than getting garroted by a cheese wire and all TurtleShroomian Christians want her head, either literally or figuratively. This could even lead to legislative action. There is no question that it will cause an immediate embargo, with the sole exception of Amalfi.

Not only that, TurtleShroom will also double down and give the Haitians an opportunity to humiliate the Borgian kings: they will establish a Third Haitian Empire (or whatever equivalent this Haiti has), anointing an Emperor of the Haitian resistance's choosing. Not only does Haiti deserve freedom, the staunch monarchists of TurtleShroom believe that Haiti deserves beauty and glory. TS has an entire Monarchist Society (which works with the Dixie aristocrats' high culture society) dedicated to helping monarchies get set up.

This Haitian Emperor will be used by propaganda (hopefully with Allanean help) to unite the disparate gangs and guerilla cells against the Borgian menace.

I'll start working on that soon. Either way, the TSSSS is going to Portauprince with a crown and an armored oil tanker's worth of weapons.

All we need is Allanea to escourt us.

Pierre d'Euse-Borga has no interest in the pontificate. His pleasures, demented though they are, are best hidden beyond the veil of public view. Attacks on Soter's papacy will be met with harsh retaliation with our own spies, terrorists, and assassins. Remember what family you're messing with here.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

D'Eusse hates Soter and he has stupidly crazy ambitions to the point of giving food poisoning to everyone on a diplomatic summit. If he doesn't take up TS' offer, I will be sorely disappointed.

I need an in-character reason to keep TurtleShroomian Catholic Christianity tied to the Borgias. A woman with Gender Identity Disorder pretending to be a man is so far that TS would break Communion. There MUST be an Antipope, or some way for Soter to fall before the war ends and she is elected.

It may not be your master plan, but you're my favorite Papacy and I can't make up any in-character excuses for TS not to leave in disgust under Soter. TurtleShroom would realistically abandon the Borgians and consider them equal in failure to the Episcopalians, and the likelihood of them coming back would take years of forgiveness and fist-fights at synods.

TS can't afford to go to war against the Borgian See because of Borgian Spain and Borgian France, so their dirty deeds done dirt cheap are limited to Haiti if Soter remains in power.

For my sake and the sake of me remaining a part of your story's "family", I need a bone thrown here. Something. Anything.

---

When should the poison take place? How long will it take before everyone vomits and throws their guts up? When was the food poisoning introduced?

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

D'Eusse hates Soter and he has stupidly crazy ambitions to the point of giving food poisoning to everyone on a diplomatic summit. If he doesn't take up TS' offer, I will be sorely disappointed.

I need an in-character reason to keep TurtleShroomian Catholic Christianity tied to the Borgias. A woman with Gender Identity Disorder pretending to be a man is so far that TS would break Communion. There MUST be an Antipope, or some way for Soter to fall before the war ends and she is elected.

It may not be your master plan, but you're my favorite Papacy and I can't make up any in-character excuses for TS not to leave in disgust under Soter. TurtleShroom would realistically abandon the Borgians and consider them equal in failure to the Episcopalians, and the likelihood of them coming back would take years of forgiveness and fist-fights at synods.

TS can't afford to go to war against the Borgian See because of Borgian Spain and Borgian France, so their dirty deeds done dirt cheap are limited to Haiti if Soter remains in power.

For my sake and the sake of me remaining a part of your story's "family", I need a bone thrown here. Something. Anything.

---

When should the poison take place? How long will it take before everyone vomits and throws their guts up? When was the food poisoning introduced?

I don't like dictating storylines or ideas to people, but the bone I'd throw sits in or formerly sat in the womb of Mary Icfella. The Orsini-Borgia children. Were I in that position, I'd do what Giuliano della Rovere did when Alexander VI was elected. Parrot submission, flee, and act quietly and covertly to destroy the Borgia. E.g., accept Riario's offer, withdraw from Italy, take the Orsini with you. Make loud and continuous protests against Soter II, and raise the Orsini boys quietly. Educate them in any way you'd see fit. Erstwhile fomenting sedition against Soter, arranging assassination attempts etc. etc.

It's not just food poisoning. It's Cantarella™. I've looked into this poison so much that I'm probably on a list now. Basically, it's a complex mixture containing arsenic combined with alkaloids of putrefaction emitted by organic substances in the later stages of decay.

According to Nicolas Garelli (1670–1732), the chief physician of Emperor Charles VI (1685–1740), to obtain alkaloids of putrefaction, a high dose of arsenic was administered to a pig which was then suspended by the hind legs. The froth around the mouth of the dying animal was collected and kept in a bottle for use in the composition of poisons. The Italian physician and historian Paolo Giovio (1483–1552) mentioned that cantarella was a kind of whitish powder with a pleasant taste which resembled sugar and that its efficacy was proved in several murders. Served in a goblet of wine at dinner, it had the reputation to function with time-clock precision. According to the desire of the murder, cantarella could kill in a day, a month, or a year.

~https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/2397847318771126

It'll hit within the hour.

So yeah, it actually made those Diet Cokes oddly sweeter. The effects range depending on the dose. Confusion, inflammation, swollen and burning tongue, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea are the mild ones. Severe cases leading to death will involve nervous agitation, dyphagia (tongue swells and closes the throat), vomiting blood, blood in the urine, difficulty urinating, severe blistering...and of course death.

Oh and fun fact, the name is probably a reference to the fact that the poison also (probably) contained Cantharides as a key ingredient. Cantharides are known popularly for their former use in small dosages under the name "Spanish Fly". High doses of it are lethal. Leave it to the Borgia Family to use aphrodisiac to murder people. Goes to show you that the line between love and hate is a thin one, lol.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

I don't like dictating storylines or ideas to people, but the bone I'd throw sits in or formerly sat in the womb of Mary Icfella. The Orsini-Borgia children. Were I in that position, I'd do what Giuliano della Rovere did when Alexander VI was elected. Parrot submission, flee, and act quietly and covertly to destroy the Borgia.

E.g., accept Riario's offer, withdraw from Italy, take the Orsini with you. Make loud and continuous protests against Soter II, and raise the Orsini boys quietly.

TurtleShroom has no interest in destroying House Borgia or even the Borgian See. They want to punish Soter, and only Soter. They want to do this by as grandiose of a humiliation as possible, particularly centered on a Haitian Empire and D'Euse (or anyone else that isn't Helios or a woman) as a Borgian Antipope.

Concerning Virginio's children, TurtleShroom has not dishonored a treaty or alliance since 1796 AD, when TS was founded; in the four hundred years that some semblance of TurtleShroom has existed, no treaty or alliance has ever been broken by TurtleShroom. The oath of a ratified treaty is the entire diplomatic weight of TurtleShroom summarized thusly: when the Great Bountiful Empire of the United Turtles, Mushrooms, and Men of TurtleShroom ratifies a treaty, it becomes law on par with its Constitution and is inviolable.

Now, that doesn't stop the sons of Virginio from plotting and dreaming of taking back their rightful clay on their own, but TurtleShroom will never betray its promises and reempower the Orsini-Borgian line unless something caused the treaty to be breached on the Borgian side, or if the treaty was nullified by arms. If the other party breaks a treaty, TS will break it too, but they will never make the first move and have not for four centuries. TS law considers violated treaties to be annuled for the duration of the breach of the treaty, and TS sees it as its right to enforce a broken treaty.

It's not just food poisoning. It's Cantarella™. I've looked into this poison so much that I'm probably on a list now. Basically, it's a complex mixture containing arsenic combined with alkaloids of putrefaction emitted by organic substances in the later stages of decay.

Are you sure you thought this through? Poisoning a one hundred eleven year old Empress at a diplomatic summit is not going to be a good idea, because TurtleShroomian authorities will immediately blame Soter.

Unless she dies. If the Tsarina dies, TS will declare war on the Borgian See and invade Borgian Italy outright, with the willingness to take Borgian Spain with it. Allanea and TurtleShroom owuld join forces in this scenario.

If she lives (and she will), TS will join the efforts to drive back the occupiers out of Haiti. TurtleShroom sees the conquest of Cuba as a liberation that will substantially increase the liberties of Cubans (and this is true, even if the solution is serfdom and a lighter yoke), and they have no plans there.

My plan is that, after the poisoning, a Declaration of War against the Borgian See itself would be presented as a referendum and voted down. Then, TS would then ask the individual Parishes to authorize a second, limited Authorization of Force (a declaration of war and an authorization of force are seen as different in TS law), which will be granted. That will be the grounds for proxy actions in Borgian Haiti and Borgian Guinea.

It'll hit within the hour. So yeah, it actually made those Diet Cokes oddly sweeter. The effects range depending on the dose. Confusion, inflammation, swollen and burning tongue, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea are the mild ones. Severe cases leading to death will involve nervous agitation, dyphagia (tongue swells and closes the throat), vomiting blood, blood in the urine, difficulty urinating, severe blistering... and of course death.

You wouldn't dare. For the sake of my own characters, no one is going to die from this problem.

TurtleShroomers don't exactly know anything about House Borgia or its dirty history in Italy; TS only had a Catholic presence since 1920 AD. That's not to mention that in centuries of synods and ecumenical gatherings that TS Christians have attended, nothing has gone wrong like this.

When at home, the TS Crown actually employs literal, actual cupbearers and, in the Russian tradition, a TurtleShroomian toast deliberately collides all the glasses together at once to share any poison.

Presumably, to cover his tracks, D'Euse has also sent himself to the privy as well.

I am excited to see where this will go.


That said, I need someone to be an Antipope for TS. D'Euse has the means, the motive, the ambition, and the shadiness to do it. He also hates Soter. If I can't get a candidate, TS will make one if they have to go that far. Either through kidnapping or Cardinal-Nephews taken up to eleven.

After all, the birth of Virginio's triplet sons should be happening right now...

[Allanea]

Wait wait wait wait. The Borgias poisoned TS' empress? In a diplomatic meeting / dinner? Is that what I am reading? I

[Allanea]

"As you ordered, Eminence." Said the youth, unmoving himself. "We followed your exact instructions, down to the minuscule measurements."

"And everyone was given it?" Pierre asked with concern.

"Yes, everyone. Even you."

"Good." Pierre said shaking himself twice. "It took too long to measure it out for each of the humans involved to get it wrong."

"What exactly is 'it', if I may ask?" The servant said flushing his urinal.

"You shouldn't. Knowledge is dangerous." Pierre said with a smirk "Then again...Much like the Coke, Cantarella is a classic."

"Diet Coke, your eminence." the servant said with a quiet laugh. "Is that why the dosages were so small?"

"Correct." Pierre said. "You are too clever by half. Cantarella is slow but potent. Everyone will be violently ill within the hour. Approaching death within two, unless...?"

"Unless we serve the final round of drinks. I've already given the order for that round, on you." He said. "If the negotiations go well. If not, we wait for two hours."

"None will die, but it will be as though death was absolutely near."

Am I reading it right?

Do I understant correctly that the Borgias have produced a poison so precisely measured out that it is intended to bring everyone in the event to be (or at least feel) near death, but then 'miraculously' survive, and introduced it to everyone including their own leadership? Am I misreading this in some terrible way?

[TURTLESHROOM II]

Do I understant correctly that the Borgias have produced a poison so precisely measured out that it is intended to bring everyone in the event to be (or at least feel) near death, but then 'miraculously' survive, and introduced it to everyone including their own leadership? Am I misreading this in some terrible way?

According to history, the RL Borgias were actually capable of this. The poison they used could be measured enough to kill within a clockwork-like time frame, or just make everyone really sick.

While D'Euse is exaggerating, what he has done is given the entire delegation, and himself, the equivalent of salmonella and ecoli rolled into one, with the specific intention of making everyone barf their guts out and stay at the privy for the next few hours.

What the Borgias failed to realize, though, is the sheer age of Tsarina Tammy Olvia. The woman is unable to walk on her own. She is one hundred eleven years old. Whereas everyone else is just going to have a really bad day of vomiting and diarrhea, the Tsarina might not survive at all.

(Of course, she will, but it will be deathly close; the Sovereign Empress' situation will require immediate hospitalization and will last a long time. Everyone else will feel better quickly, without any medical assistance beyond hydration and rest.)

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

I don't like dictating storylines or ideas to people, but the bone I'd throw sits in or formerly sat in the womb of Mary Icfella. The Orsini-Borgia children. Were I in that position, I'd do what Giuliano della Rovere did when Alexander VI was elected. Parrot submission, flee, and act quietly and covertly to destroy the Borgia.

E.g., accept Riario's offer, withdraw from Italy, take the Orsini with you. Make loud and continuous protests against Soter II, and raise the Orsini boys quietly.

TurtleShroom has no interest in destroying House Borgia or even the Borgian See. They want to punish Soter, and only Soter. They want to do this by as grandiose of a humiliation as possible, particularly centered on a Haitian Empire and D'Euse (or anyone else that isn't Helios or a woman) as a Borgian Antipope.

Concerning Virginio's children, TurtleShroom has not dishonored a treaty or alliance since 1796 AD, when TS was founded; in the four hundred years that some semblance of TurtleShroom has existed, no treaty or alliance has ever been broken by TurtleShroom. The oath of a ratified treaty is the entire diplomatic weight of TurtleShroom summarized thusly: when the Great Bountiful Empire of the United Turtles, Mushrooms, and Men of TurtleShroom ratifies a treaty, it becomes law on par with its Constitution and is inviolable.

Now, that doesn't stop the sons of Virginio from plotting and dreaming of taking back their rightful clay on their own, but TurtleShroom will never betray its promises and reempower the Orsini-Borgian line unless something caused the treaty to be breached on the Borgian side, or if the treaty was nullified by arms. If the other party breaks a treaty, TS will break it too, but they will never make the first move and have not for four centuries. TS law considers violated treaties to be annuled for the duration of the breach of the treaty, and TS sees it as its right to enforce a broken treaty.

It's not just food poisoning. It's Cantarella™. I've looked into this poison so much that I'm probably on a list now. Basically, it's a complex mixture containing arsenic combined with alkaloids of putrefaction emitted by organic substances in the later stages of decay.

Are you sure you thought this through? Poisoning a one hundred eleven year old Empress at a diplomatic summit is not going to be a good idea, because TurtleShroomian authorities will immediately blame Soter.

Unless she dies. If the Tsarina dies, TS will declare war on the Borgian See and invade Borgian Italy outright, with the willingness to take Borgian Spain with it. Allanea and TurtleShroom owuld join forces in this scenario.

If she lives (and she will), TS will join the efforts to drive back the occupiers out of Haiti. TurtleShroom sees the conquest of Cuba as a liberation that will substantially increase the liberties of Cubans (and this is true, even if the solution is serfdom and a lighter yoke), and they have no plans there.

My plan is that, after the poisoning, a Declaration of War against the Borgian See itself would be presented as a referendum and voted down. Then, TS would then ask the individual Parishes to authorize a second, limited Authorization of Force (a declaration of war and an authorization of force are seen as different in TS law), which will be granted. That will be the grounds for proxy actions in Borgian Haiti and Borgian Guinea.

It'll hit within the hour. So yeah, it actually made those Diet Cokes oddly sweeter. The effects range depending on the dose. Confusion, inflammation, swollen and burning tongue, vomiting, abdominal pain, and diarrhea are the mild ones. Severe cases leading to death will involve nervous agitation, dyphagia (tongue swells and closes the throat), vomiting blood, blood in the urine, difficulty urinating, severe blistering... and of course death.

You wouldn't dare. For the sake of my own characters, no one is going to die from this problem.

TurtleShroomers don't exactly know anything about House Borgia or its dirty history in Italy; TS only had a Catholic presence since 1920 AD. That's not to mention that in centuries of synods and ecumenical gatherings that TS Christians have attended, nothing has gone wrong like this.

When at home, the TS Crown actually employs literal, actual cupbearers and, in the Russian tradition, a TurtleShroomian toast deliberately collides all the glasses together at once to share any poison.

Presumably, to cover his tracks, D'Euse has also sent himself to the privy as well.

I am excited to see where this will go.


That said, I need someone to be an Antipope for TS. D'Euse has the means, the motive, the ambition, and the shadiness to do it. He also hates Soter. If I can't get a candidate, TS will make one if they have to go that far. Either through kidnapping or Cardinal-Nephews taken up to eleven.

After all, the birth of Virginio's triplet sons should be happening right now...

I should have mentioned the Tsarina is the only one to be spared of the poisoning. Any dosage would be likely to kill her. And yes, everyone has been poisoned, d'Euse included...though the effects on him will be slightly less than everyone else's. With d'Euse being overly watchful of her vitals, her poisoning would be far too obviously his doing.

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

https://imgur.com/a/4KUfpxN

Did an IC 9axes and Politiscales test for Soter II. The results were surprising, honestly.

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

I'm back at Uni officially, so I'm going to shoot for a full weekend post. Hopefully. I refuse to allow another hiatus!

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

The cardinal appointments tend to act as kind of my future dramatis personae. Any of the ones named Borgia may show up in future conclaves.

The title of the post was supposed be finished with "appointment conditional on acceptance of nominee." Soter II is throwing one final bone to Jason, though I doubt he's gonna accept after his dinner ordeal lmao. And yes, his former pontifical opponent has been named head of the foreign churches of the east. It's an act of mercy and concord, but also pretty much a sentence of exile.

[TURTLESHROOM II]

I still want a Borgia to join opposition to Soter and allow TS to install him as an Antipope. TS needs more than just Sede Vacante unless you want the TS Rite to withdraw altogether. I cannot write, in-character wise, anything that would keep them in Full Communion, and it would permanently harm relations going forward.

TurtleShroomian Catholicism officially recognizes, and ratifies in its bylaws, the exclusive right of House Borgia to the Papal throne, but Soter's ascension would cause serious doubt on the legitimacy of their claims.

Alternately, TurtleShroom's Catholics can just consider Soter an usurper because she was never elected by a College of Cardinals that was free to think for itself. They already believe that Soter saw a demon and not the Virgin Mary, and because of their doctrine, they consider the Virgin Mary to be simply the greatest woman in history and not some "Queen of Heaven". They consider the Immaculate Conception- the idea that the Virgin Mary was perfect -to be blasphemy, not just heresy!

While TurtleShroomian Catholicism tolerates Intercession of the Saints and does not ever prohibit its congregants from doing it, the "Marian occultism" (their words), especially praying to statues and crowning Marian statues, is idolatry and is punishable by excommunication. Soter would be excommunicated on these grounds. The Virgin Mary, being the ultimate example of a holy and righteous, God-fearing woman, would never appear to a woman with Gender Identity Disorder and tell her to play make-believe as a man while sitting on Peter's seat!

There is no realistic scenario where a large portion of Borgian Catholicism wouldn't rebel on this. The fact that no one in Borgian France, Borgian Spain, Borgian Cuba, Borgian Italy, or in the Borgian Eastern Churches, nor any other church in Full Communion with the Borgian See, even cares or says anything about this is, for lack of a better term, bad writing.

There is no way that some Borgias, somewhere, wouldn't mount an oppsoition and accept TurtleShroom's call for an Antipope.

Besides, there are strategic reasons: Borgian Haiti would recognize the TS Antipope in defiance of the Borgian Spanish invasion. If Borgian France and Borgian Spain hate each other, they could also pit that against them, especially because the Duke of Naples is a Spanish loyalist. Murat, likewise, would immediately grip the feet of any Antipope.

I find it bizarre that D'Euse, who openly despises Soter, wouldn't immediately jump on TurtleShroom's offer. Morever, why would the Neapolitan Antipope take up TurtleShroom's mantle? He opposed Soter enough to accept a country's armed opposition against her. He needs to support TurtleShroom too.

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

I still want a Borgia to join opposition to Soter and allow TS to install him as an Antipope. TS needs more than just Sede Vacante unless you want the TS Rite to withdraw altogether. I cannot write, in-character wise, anything that would keep them in Full Communion, and it would permanently harm relations going forward.

TurtleShroomian Catholicism officially recognizes, and ratifies in its bylaws, the exclusive right of House Borgia to the Papal throne, but Soter's ascension would cause serious doubt on the legitimacy of their claims.

Alternately, TurtleShroom's Catholics can just consider Soter an usurper because she was never elected by a College of Cardinals that was free to think for itself. They already believe that Soter saw a demon and not the Virgin Mary, and because of their doctrine, they consider the Virgin Mary to be simply the greatest woman in history and not some "Queen of Heaven". They consider the Immaculate Conception- the idea that the Virgin Mary was perfect -to be blasphemy, not just heresy!

While TurtleShroomian Catholicism tolerates Intercession of the Saints and does not ever prohibit its congregants from doing it, the "Marian occultism" (their words), especially praying to statues and crowning Marian statues, is idolatry and is punishable by excommunication. Soter would be excommunicated on these grounds. The Virgin Mary, being the ultimate example of a holy and righteous, God-fearing woman, would never appear to a woman with Gender Identity Disorder and tell her to play make-believe as a man while sitting on Peter's seat!

There is no realistic scenario where a large portion of Borgian Catholicism wouldn't rebel on this. The fact that no one in Borgian France, Borgian Spain, Borgian Cuba, Borgian Italy, or in the Borgian Eastern Churches, nor any other church in Full Communion with the Borgian See, even cares or says anything about this is, for lack of a better term, bad writing.

It's realpolitik. The Cubans would be crushed beneath the Spanish bootheel, The Eastern Churches only ever pay lip service. Italy, Spain, and The Benelux are under direct rule and terrorized by the inquisition. France is surrounded on all sides by the House, but does run a tense ground specifically with the Spanish, however.

There is no way that some Borgias, somewhere, wouldn't mount an oppsoition and accept TurtleShroom's call for an Antipope.

The modus operandi of this, our Borgia dynasty, is and always has been "For the Good of The Family." There will always be internal plotting, but to behoove oneself before a foreign power (one that isn't under the influence of the papal tiara) would weaken the dynastic monopoly on the throne. It is rarely undertaken, because doing so would encur the wroth of the rest of the dynasty. See: Orsini.

Besides, there are strategic reasons: Borgian Haiti would recognize the TS Antipope in defiance of the Borgian Spanish invasion. If Borgian France and Borgian Spain hate each other, they could also pit that against them, especially because the Duke of Naples is a Spanish loyalist. Murat, likewise, would immediately grip the feet of any Antipope.

Haiti could definitely do so. Murat could as well, but frankly that'd be pointless. His influence is gone, wiped away when the marriage ended.

I find it bizarre that D'Euse, who openly despises Soter, wouldn't immediately jump on TurtleShroom's offer. Morever, why would the Neapolitan Antipope take up TurtleShroom's mantle? He opposed Soter enough to accept a country's armed opposition against her. He needs to support TurtleShroom too.

d'Euse despises Soter, but he isn't interested in power. Never has been. His chief aim is the destruction of all enemies of the empire, secular and theological. He finds his delights in the torture chamber, not the throne room. Will he resist and undermine Soter from within? Of course he will. d'Euse never accepted foreign involvement. From the beginning his entire thing was discovering whom has been attacking our slave ships, gathering intelligence.

[Allanea]

Just to clarify the reasoning behind me not posting:

1. As I understand it, the Allaneans don't yet know in-character about the events at the conference / don't know they're going to be accused of the poisoning.

2. I don't want to claim any damage/consequences of my last missile attack before I proceed with the next chapter of the Guinea saga (which will consist of a tragedy striking the FKS Elitist - stay tuned!). So at the least IBV should tell me what's up with that.

[Il Borgia Vaticano]

Alright, I'm on summer vacation now...but also working. So I'm putting a nice bow on this for good. I cannot believe its two years plus now since I started this. It was fun, so fun, while it lasted. Thanks y'all!

Pax tibi!