France Liberated (OOC)

[6th National Revolutionary France]

The OOC thread to France Liberated.

IC: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=469375

[New Aeyariss]

Okay. @Port Ember just to let you know, France - who is a person I know - had asked me to write on this topic. Therefore, I am. While France's post was not perfect, there is an issue I need to address - and that is, I do not believe that your fleet will be able to just handwave a missile attack, especially a missile attack of this size.

I have mentioned already to you on PMs about radar horizon:

If what I am reading from France's post is correct, you are dealing with a sea skimmer - a missile that's meant to fly at about 17 meters above sea level. You could have detected the missiles at 400 kilometers had they been flying at a high altitude, like 18-20 km. But because they are flying at near sea level, you probably won't even be able to pick them up until 25 kilometers (which is the radar horizon).

If you add the fact that each of the missiles has low RCS, chances are that you won't even see the strike coming until it hits the fleet. Even if the fleet will be able to react in time, the efficiency of counter - missile systems here is greatly over-estimated, and I believe that you will suffer substantial causalities. How much? It would depend on what you and France are willing to agree on.

Don't take this please as a personal attack on you - it's clear that you are new to this stuff, and it's not my intention to harm you or ruin your fun in any way. We all make mistakes, and no one will hold it against you.

[Rhyssua]

Any chance I could participate? (Rhyssua would be in the nations of Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, and the city of Trieste).

[6th National Revolutionary France]

Any chance I could participate? (Rhyssua would be in the nations of Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, and the city of Trieste).

Sure.

[Rhyssua]

Any chance I could participate? (Rhyssua would be in the nations of Austria, Hungary, Slovenia, Slovakia, Croatia, and the city of Trieste).

Sure.

Yeet

[Zhouran]

Because of OOC constraint, I can't fully commit to a full-war RP, plus ICly Zhouran doesn't see the situation as something worth risking for, rather the Zhouranese in this case simply supporting Comrade Le Dragon and his movement both diplomatically and politically. I'll at some point have any sympathetic moderate-aligned and hardline-aligned political groups in Zhouran funnel money to the 6th French Republic National Revolutionary Movement.

Okay. @Port Ember just to let you know, France - who is a person I know - had asked me to write on this topic. Therefore, I am. While France's post was not perfect, there is an issue I need to address - and that is, I do not believe that your fleet will be able to just handwave a missile attack, especially a missile attack of this size.

I have mentioned already to you on PMs about radar horizon:

(Image)

If what I am reading from France's post is correct, you are dealing with a sea skimmer - a missile that's meant to fly at about 17 meters above sea level. You could have detected the missiles at 400 kilometers had they been flying at a high altitude, like 18-20 km. But because they are flying at near sea level, you probably won't even be able to pick them up until 25 kilometers (which is the radar horizon).

This. One of the problems with CIWS, especially gun-based, is reaction time.

If the radar horizon is, say, 30km and you're going at 300m/s, that means the target has 100 seconds of reaction time from the moment it identifies the missile as a valid threat to the time it impacts the target. If you go at 600m/s, the target will have 50 seconds of reaction time. If you go at 1200m/s, the target will have 25 seconds. The problem with increasing speed is that, especially if you're flying at low altitude, drag increases exponentially as a function of velocity so you need ever larger amounts of propellant and ever more powerful engines.

Source

Ignore the poster's last remarks about brute force not being efficient since technically the bloody US military used shock-n-awe in Iraq during the Gulf War.

If you add the fact that each of the missiles has low RCS, chances are that you won't even see the strike coming until it hits the fleet. Even if the fleet will be able to react in time, the efficiency of counter - missile systems here is greatly over-estimated, and I believe that you will suffer substantial causalities.

This. The thing with gun-based CIWS and counter-missile missiles is that some people think they have a 90% of shooting down missiles including hypersonic missiles, but such claim is unsubstantiated and technically almost, if not, impossible. For example, some people think China's Type 1130 CIWS can intercept incoming anti-ship missiles up to a speed of Mach 4 with a 96% success rate (as said by Chinese state TV, btw Mach 4 is NOT hypersonic), which is obviously false, and from the same exact source:

Since the Type 1130 CIWS can’t even shoot down medium or long-range subsonic missiles it’s a good bet that it will struggle with hypersonic ones.

Yep, not even the mighty Type 1130 CIWS can shoot down basic AShMs such as Exocet, Harpoon, Kh-35 or RBS-15. And btw, the Type 1130 uses 30mm rounds and eleven barrels, in comparison the Phalanx uses 20mm rounds and has six barrels.

Gun-based CIWS is very limiting and almost useless. It only exists because of the notion of last-stand survival with the CIWS acting as a backup weapon, kinda like with onboard cannons on fighter jets. And just like onboard cannons found on fighter jets, gun-based CIWS is almost useless and the chance of them ever being used in combat is overwhelmingly unlikely.

Gun-based CIWS is basically ineffective against swarms of AShMs, not just with the usage of unguided, non-airburst conventional rounds but even 76mm airburst rounds are not as effective with dealing maneuverable AShMs as some people might think. Here in Australia, the Department of Science & Technology Organisation released a research dubbed "Limitations of Guns as a Defence against Manoeuvring Air Weapons" (link), it's an interesting read for milspergers like myself. But in the conclusion, basically gun-based air-defense (particularly CIWS) are unlikely to intercept AShMs even at ideal conditions. Airburst rounds can increase their efficiency, but only barely and you would need so much CIWS just to successfully intercept a small tiny number of AShMs.

Also, another thing to point out:

I am still awaiting all my preparations to be concluded, but so far I am preparing the following:

- 50 x Jolly Roger Missile Boats (My entire Missile Boat Fleet)

- 1 x Orca Class Frigate

- 30 x Rydell Class Cargo Ships

- 2 x Black Eagle Attack Choppers

- 5 x Albatross Mk2 Transport Choppers

Why are missile boats, especially this much, deployed in an expeditionary mission? Missile boats are not made for blue-water naval warfare, not to mention that you'd need to constantly refuel & resupply them. Frigates and destroyers are the warships for this type of expeditionary mission. Plus even with bigger warships you still need at least some logistics ships as well. (Btw, cargo ships are not suitable replacements for dedicated replenishment ships and sealift logistics ships)

The Hawk Privateers were no lower class pirates - they employed the very best equipment which money could buy - and their ships were prime examples of this fact. Although tense, the crew on board knew that they were prepared for this eventuality - they held a multi layer anti air defence system in place, and at the forefront, the Eagle Killer Anti Air System on the Orca Class Frigate went to task against the incoming missiles, which could track the missiles from 400km away and automatically launch a counter missile strike.

Using a LR-SAM against AShMs isn't really going to work in this scenario. MR-SAMs such as RIM-162 ESSM and Buk system and SR-SAMs such as RIM-116 RAM are more ideal for AShM interception.

60 missiles was a picnic for this massed air defence network. Even though this formaddible network was active, a lucky missile or two managed to slip past and hit two cargo ships clinically - lighting up the pieces of steel in a beautifull display of fire and death.

60 AShMs is not a walk-in-a-park for even the most powerful blue-water navies. That's a high-level threat that calls for a high-level response. Even with the usage of missile-based CIWS that's still overwhelming to intercept with. I don't know how much SAMs your warships each carry but 60 AShMs is still so much and even overbearing to deal with.

The Armada was adament in having the last say however, and the missile launches allowed the armada's radars to solidly lock on to the incoming aircraft, and a sheer wall of 50 HMT-13 anti air missiles launched to have a final supper with the french airmen.

I thought the HMT-13 was an AShM?

[Port Ember]

Okay. @Port Ember just to let you know, France - who is a person I know - had asked me to write on this topic. Therefore, I am. While France's post was not perfect, there is an issue I need to address - and that is, I do not believe that your fleet will be able to just handwave a missile attack, especially a missile attack of this size.

I have mentioned already to you on PMs about radar horizon:

(Image)

If what I am reading from France's post is correct, you are dealing with a sea skimmer - a missile that's meant to fly at about 17 meters above sea level. You could have detected the missiles at 400 kilometers had they been flying at a high altitude, like 18-20 km. But because they are flying at near sea level, you probably won't even be able to pick them up until 25 kilometers (which is the radar horizon).

If you add the fact that each of the missiles has low RCS, chances are that you won't even see the strike coming until it hits the fleet. Even if the fleet will be able to react in time, the efficiency of counter - missile systems here is greatly over-estimated, and I believe that you will suffer substantial causalities. How much? It would depend on what you and France are willing to agree on.

Don't take this please as a personal attack on you - it's clear that you are new to this stuff, and it's not my intention to harm you or ruin your fun in any way. We all make mistakes, and no one will hold it against you.

Thanks for the input mate. As I said before I apreciate input, we all need help from time to time.

Next time though France, if you dissagree with my posts, tell me so we can sort it out. I do appreciate the help I got, but there was no need in blindsiding me. Thats why I try to keep TG contact - to avoid unhappiness.

Furthermore since the platform for this has been opened, this remains a two way street. I asked you if you have naval assets in the area, which was no. Now a ghost carrier has appeared. And the fact that a specialised anti air frigate could not spot your E-3 or your 10 jets in time is.. interesting.

But yeah. Appologies for blundering the naval battle - I'll edit soon

[Zhouran]

Furthermore since the platform for this has been opened, this remains a two way street. I asked you if you have naval assets in the area, which was no. Now a ghost carrier has appeared. And the fact that a specialised anti air frigate could not spot your E-3 or your 10 jets in time is.. interesting.

It's why when deploying troops for a war RP an ORBAT (Order of Battle) is posted to make sure players know how much troops and vehicles are being deployed. France could of posted an ORBAT on his post so as to avoid that mistake and clear the smoke.

Also, tbf, the E-3 Sentry's AN/APY-2 passive electronically scanned array radar system (E-3F variant used by IRL France) has a radar range longer than your RN/PAMAS15-A but that's assuming the E-3 was flying at high altitude. Other than that, at lower altitude the AN/APY-2's range decreases. Also, the Rafale has Thales Spectra for electronic warfare, but then again France didn't specify if his Rafales were using them on his post.

[Democratic Exodian Territories]

France, is there by any chance I can pull together the remnants of an Exodian-led crime syndicate or private military corporation that has locations within French territory?

In addition, how late PMT are you willing to go in terms of military tech? Just need to clarify a few things.

[Rhyssua]

When there's two Germanies and they're both France's ally.

Sad Rhyssua noises.

(No Anschluss for you)

[New Aeyariss]

Thanks for the input mate. As I said before I apreciate input, we all need help from time to time.

Next time though France, if you dissagree with my posts, tell me so we can sort it out. I do appreciate the help I got, but there was no need in blindsiding me. Thats why I try to keep TG contact - to avoid unhappiness.

Furthermore since the platform for this has been opened, this remains a two way street. I asked you if you have naval assets in the area, which was no. Now a ghost carrier has appeared. And the fact that a specialised anti air frigate could not spot your E-3 or your 10 jets in time is.. interesting.

If I am to be honest, I don't think that they could have done anything even if they have spotted them. I would like to point out that 500km range refers only to targets flying at high altitude - about 18 kilometers to 20 kilometers. The planes could have just flew on a lower altitude.

The only one which could have been affected would have been the AWACS - but at that time, there is little way in which it would have been reached from 500 kilometers unless you had aviation of your own .

That, and we haven't yet considered electronic emissions signature Port Ember's fleet would have emitted.

[6th National Revolutionary France]

Okay. @Port Ember just to let you know, France - who is a person I know - had asked me to write on this topic. Therefore, I am. While France's post was not perfect, there is an issue I need to address - and that is, I do not believe that your fleet will be able to just handwave a missile attack, especially a missile attack of this size.

I have mentioned already to you on PMs about radar horizon:

(Image)

If what I am reading from France's post is correct, you are dealing with a sea skimmer - a missile that's meant to fly at about 17 meters above sea level. You could have detected the missiles at 400 kilometers had they been flying at a high altitude, like 18-20 km. But because they are flying at near sea level, you probably won't even be able to pick them up until 25 kilometers (which is the radar horizon).

If you add the fact that each of the missiles has low RCS, chances are that you won't even see the strike coming until it hits the fleet. Even if the fleet will be able to react in time, the efficiency of counter - missile systems here is greatly over-estimated, and I believe that you will suffer substantial causalities. How much? It would depend on what you and France are willing to agree on.

Don't take this please as a personal attack on you - it's clear that you are new to this stuff, and it's not my intention to harm you or ruin your fun in any way. We all make mistakes, and no one will hold it against you.

Thanks for the input mate. As I said before I apreciate input, we all need help from time to time.

Next time though France, if you dissagree with my posts, tell me so we can sort it out. I do appreciate the help I got, but there was no need in blindsiding me. Thats why I try to keep TG contact - to avoid unhappiness.

Furthermore since the platform for this has been opened, this remains a two way street. I asked you if you have naval assets in the area, which was no. Now a ghost carrier has appeared. And the fact that a specialised anti air frigate could not spot your E-3 or your 10 jets in time is.. interesting.

But yeah. Appologies for blundering the naval battle - I'll edit soon

Awesome, sorry I did not get to you soon enough on that I was buisy today.

[Port Ember]

Okay I edited the post

[6th National Revolutionary France]

Okay I edited the post

Awesome.

[Zhouran]

Yo OP, what is the fate of France's overseas territories, especially the ones in the Pacific? Are they supportive of the new government or do they oppose the new government?

The only one which could have been affected would have been the AWACS - but at that time, there is little way in which it would have been reached from 500 kilometers unless you had aviation of your own .

Some people seem critical on aircraft carriers and how they are outdated floating targets. If anything, aircraft carriers and naval aviation is such a core element in expeditionary warfare, especially in the 21st Century, and sending an expeditionary fleet without naval aviation is basically sending warriors to a battlefield without shields.

It's also why swarm tactics using missile boats don't actually work without effective air-cover too. Naval aviation doesn't get enough love since it's always big warships with hundred AShMs.

[Democratic Exodian Territories]

France, is there by any chance I can pull together the remnants of an Exodian-led crime syndicate or private military corporation that has locations within French territory?

In addition, how late PMT are you willing to go in terms of military tech? Just need to clarify a few things.

Just bumping this.

[6th National Revolutionary France]

France, is there by any chance I can pull together the remnants of an Exodian-led crime syndicate or private military corporation that has locations within French territory?

In addition, how late PMT are you willing to go in terms of military tech? Just need to clarify a few things.

Just bumping this.

Hey, I have something cool to tell you, like Ocelot grade triple back-stabbing. ;) but I need your IC permission for it if thats cool.

[The Chuck]

I'm interested in hoping into this hot mess. However I was wondering if I could do a bit of character RP and would I need to fill out an app?

[Rhyssua]

I'm interested in hoping into this hot mess. However I was wondering if I could do a bit of character RP and would I need to fill out an app?

I mean, nobody else filled out an app...*glances around nervously*

[Democratic Exodian Territories]

Just bumping this.

Hey, I have something cool to tell you, like Ocelot grade triple back-stabbing. ;) but I need your IC permission for it if thats cool.

I'm all ears.
spins Single Action Army

[Democratic Exodian Territories]

I'm interested in hoping into this hot mess. However I was wondering if I could do a bit of character RP and would I need to fill out an app?

I see you received my message.

Welcome to the party, pal.

[6th National Revolutionary France]

I'm interested in hoping into this hot mess. However I was wondering if I could do a bit of character RP and would I need to fill out an app?

Sure that would be bloody awesome.

[The Chuck]

I'm interested in hoping into this hot mess. However I was wondering if I could do a bit of character RP and would I need to fill out an app?

Sure that would be bloody awesome.

Alright, someone mind giving me a brief run down of what's going on? I've read over the IC but curious about the entirety and if there is any information I'm missing.

[Rhyssua]

Alright, someone mind giving me a brief run down of what's going on? I've read over the IC but curious about the entirety and if there is any information I'm missing.

France had another one of their Revolutions, and is now socialist, anti-NATO, and pro-Palestine. Some people (Germany, Poland, Zhouran, and some 4th nation I can't remember) seek friendship with the new France. Others are reacting negatively (Exodia, myself, and most notably Eurasian Peoples, who seems ready to march on Paris). There's a problem with Islamic Extremists, a surprisingly well-armed pirate force has attacked Liberia, and France is coming to their rescue.

I undoubtedly missed something, but this is the gist. Btw France, is Macron dead?

Also, what would my reconnaissance planes pick up, assuming they flew through the Swiss Alps, to Lyon, and then circled back, all at a high altitude?

[Democratic Exodian Territories]

Alright, someone mind giving me a brief run down of what's going on? I've read over the IC but curious about the entirety and if there is any information I'm missing.

France had another one of their Revolutions, and is now socialist, anti-NATO, and pro-Palestine. Some people (Germany, Poland, Zhouran, and some 4th nation I can't remember) seek friendship with the new France. Others are reacting negatively (Exodia, myself, and most notably Eurasian Peoples, who seems ready to march on Paris). There's a problem with Islamic Extremists, a surprisingly well-armed pirate force has attacked Liberia, and France is coming to their rescue.

I undoubtedly missed something, but this is the gist. Btw France, is Macron dead?

Also, what would my reconnaissance planes pick up, assuming they flew through the Swiss Alps, to Lyon, and then circled back, all at a high altitude?

Macron and his wife's dead, North Korea has announced their support for the new France, Sierra Leone (not Liberia) was attacked by pirates, and Allanea has announced their plan for potential counterinsurgency/peacekeeping operations.