Second Diyari War of Independence OOC thread

[Sevevill]

I was told by Diyaristan in he previous RP - and indeed here -that there are some kind of cannibal, communist, cultists living in the ungoverned area of former LFN and/or Anavokia.

Does this no longer apply? Because I want to shank some Cannibal Commie Cultists.

That is still canon, though only Diyaristan/LFN (the player) ever really developed the story outside of bombing/shooting cultists.

I've found a couple of the cultist-related posts from the roleplay where LFN became solidly Sevevillian. These and others with smaller references come in the last couple pages, though there are plenty of stock bad guy acts of violence well before that.

However, I believe that fighting in LFN would be a little bit outside the scope of this RP. If there are to be uprisings in all the restless Sevevillian provinces then we may need a new thread.

(Image)
Human sacrifice being made to an idol looking suspiciously like Karl Marx

First Public Address to Resistance Forces by Friend Number Six

A makeshift altar was flanked by two banners. To the right, a familiar if horrifying symbol to the peoples who survived the LFN: the Pick and Shovel symbolizing Friend No. 1's ultra-hardline version of Marxism. To the left, a symbol that's not been seen publicly since before the Marxists came to power: the Four E symbol of a temple that worshipped a secret god, representing the apocalyptic cycle of Education, Enlightenment, Entropy, and the End.

"Revolutionaries, rejoice! The Prophet Engels, surrounded by the angels of Scharrath, has appeared to me in a vision after sacred Engelstopia vanished in the fire. The Apocalypse is indeed near. Friend Number One will return soon to lead it and slay the unbelievers. Fight, comrades, the Heavens are on your side, and the First Worker of our Universe watches over you as you feed Him the blood of the People's enemies."

(chorus) "Long live the great Unifier of the tribes! Great Prophet of Doom return to us!"

"I hold the knife over the intruders of our ancestral lands that they may know sacrifice and please the ancient Gods whose names in the old tongue are Daighast and Dharbul, known in the tongue of the man we soon called Friend Number One as Marx and Lenin. When he brought the sacred books that could read the future, he promised that we would rule the world, but only after a great war unlike any before or since against a people of great cities, the Boozhwahzee."

I think she meant "bourgeoisie..."

There was a great amount of cheering, especially by people in the tattered uniforms of the Ministry of Social Welfare. Friend Number 17, standing in the audience, remained frozen in disbelief after that speech. He was a rigidly orthodox, atheist Marxist from Diyaristan.

The Revolution is losing its ideological mooring. Number Two's death was a disaster...

Then he spoke up, slamming his two briefcases on the ground. "Comrade Friend Number 6, we've just gotten the Party 5.7 billion marks worth of funding. What they don't know is that I 've been living a double life disguised as a capitalist and a mercenary."

As the knife came down on the Anavokian prisoners, Number Six exclaimed: "Praise be to Engels."

[/Operation Smoked Hammerb]
10,000 More Sevevill army soldiers (SVA) have been sent into the LFN Sevevills grip on the region has almost been completely taken. Raids on Cultist/Communist camps have also been conducted with Sevevill Atlas Soldiers. Anyone taking up arms against the Sevevill Marines and Sevevill army soldiers have either been killed or sent to POW camps.

[b]Lt. Jason "1st" Davis. 59th Atlas. Raid on one of two Kulltu Cultist camps

The SV-298 A Atlas variant of the Huey started its decent into a densely forested area.
"Safety off boys... A bullet a body lets go" Said the commander. "first you get off first" Jasons nickname came from his brothers role as the leader of the first marines and his high status in the Sevevill Armed forces. But it was his turn to shine.
"Right commander. Locked and Loaded" The helicopter hit the dirt. He jumped off of the chopper and started to move out. The other ten soldiers got off and the helicopter took off. "NV on... GO" He said though the radio. He pulled the goggles down over his eyes as he said it. He started to run down a small dirt road. A line of eleven soldiers started to run down the street they kicked open a gaurd gate booth door.
"GET THE FUCK ON THE GROUND!" Yelled another soldier. Scared screems form people inside rang out.
"Look at these retards worshoping some stupid pin head." He kicked down a massive stone pole. It fell hard and cracked. The soldiers had started to round up people. A man reached into his coat. Jasons Gun was up by the time the man reached the pocket. Two shots rang out. The man fell down. Blood streming from his head and upper torso. His hand slid out of the pocket. By morning everyone had been found. A LFNA M1 Bradly rolled up and LFN soldiers got out and started to collect the five bodys. Only two of them had been armed but they were POR (Person of Risk) When they were moving hands twards pockets or waistbands. 104 people had been arested for Anti Sevevill Agendas and being part of a cult.

(Post by Green Union)

[Allanea]

What I'm thinknig of is that if you want to weaken the DTI/communist portion of the rebellion we probably need to do something about the cultists.

[Diyaristan]

Is it possible to tag this?

Certainly!

I was told by Diyaristan in he previous RP - and indeed here -that there are some kind of cannibal, communist, cultists living in the ungoverned area of former LFN and/or Anavokia.

Does this no longer apply? Because I want to shank some Cannibal Commie Cultists.

They still exist... and have only been spreading. Nobody's supposed to know this IC or was supposed to know this OOC yet, but the Dervishes are secretly a DCT-controlled cult. The meditations of Sufism have been adapted to resemble brainwashing methods. I'm preparing a post about this group, detailing what kind of visions the movement's disciples have been receiving. Unlike some of the other cults in the Former LFN and which have been spreading to Anavokya, however, this one does not practice cannibalism owing to the practice being un-Islamic.

[Allanea]

Also, what exactly doese Seveville mean by 'killing off' the residents of LFN? Is a genocide going on?

[Sevevill]

Also, what exactly doese Seveville mean by 'killing off' the residents of LFN? Is a genocide going on?

It is fairly common knowledge IC in Markion that something close to genocide or even outright genocide may be taking place. Trouble populations are being liquidated in the northeast and either forcibly dispersed across the empire or, in some instances, killed. These persons are then replaced by loyalists from other areas of the empire.

The imperial government, as far as I am aware, does not really comment on this, and real nations or NGOs in the region have decided to champion the cause.

A similar strategy, though on a much smaller scale, may be starting in Diyaristan, as Sevevill (the real player, not I) has talked in discord about how their aid system works. Essentially, to limit the chances of corrupt or rebel-sympathizing persons gaining access to aid assets or money, most of the work is going to people from other areas of the empire. This means newly built schools are being built and staffed by Sevevillians and Connarians, while local Diyaristanis are being actively excluded from much of the rebuilding of their country.

(Post by Green Union)

[Mitheldalond]

This makes me a lot more comfortable. Still, the Mitheldalondians will need to become pretty extremely valuable in hunting terrorists to offset the worry they cause Sevevill by recognizing the rebels. Sevevill will demand they operate by the rules of Hamara Administration air traffic control, and failing to do this will lead to them sharing the fate of the the Russian plane which has been flying around illegally.

I imagine not being invaded would make most people more comfortable.

As for recognizing the rebels, its more of recognizing them as the legitimate rebel authority (as opposed to the leadership of the terrorist group(s)) than it is calling them the government of Diyaristan. In other words, the Alamardin government is the political body that would be negotiating/handling things like the independence(?) of Girizil on behalf of the rebels.

You're walking a fine line, as you can only maintain supply to your troops in the country with Sevevill's goodwill, and that goodwill will be revoked if they feel you are undermining their cause.

Or by, you know, sharing supplies (secretly) with the rebels. Point taken though.
Hmmm, I suddenly find myself contemplating the logistics of using B-2s to airdrop supplies...

The naval task force is fine, but also maybe a bit redundant. Diyaristan is landlocked and surrounded by the Sevevillian Empire, and this fleet is not going to scare all of Sevevill.

Clearly you've never met the Mitheldalondian navy.

Seriously though, I do have over a hundred stealthy cruise missiles that can hit targets 1000 nmi inland parked somewhere off the coast of what may-or-may-not be Anavokia. If Sevevill is at all worried about Mitheldalond, that should be cause for some concern.

My fighters also have a combat radius of about 1000 nmi (depending on payload), so they should have plenty of range to operate over Diyaristan. At least, I assume. What's the scale on that map there?

[A few years ago this may have been a good place to stage aid from, but since then Sevevill has been known to be systematically killing and deporting the local populace and replacing them with people loyal to the empire

"Welp, looks like the invasion's back on boys!" Kidding, though this WILL provide yet another lovely casus belli against Sevevill if it gets to that point.

Large, military cargo planes would be spotted and intercepted by the Imperial Air Force, and your nations' air forces lack the local knowledge to sneak through.

The issue isn't so much a lack of knowledge as it is the fact that it should be almost impossible, without stealth aircraft, to penetrate a modern integrated air defense system and radar network, presumably complimented by AWACS and fighter patrols, without being detected. Even stealth aircraft might have some difficulty pulling it off.

As for knowledge, satellite-based intelligence would give you information on fixed radar installations and defenses, as well at least some idea of aircraft distribution (by overflying air bases) and troop positions. And the reconnaissance flights I've been sending over Diyaristan could provide some notion of fighter patrol patterns and mobile SAM/radar movements. Not the greatest intel certainly, but better than nothing.

Trouble populations are being liquidated in the northeast and either forcibly dispersed across the empire or, in some instances, killed. These persons are then replaced by loyalists from other areas of the empire.

I get the feeling someone's been reading up on the Roman Empire.

Essentially, to limit the chances of corrupt or rebel-sympathizing persons gaining access to aid assets or money, most of the work is going to people from other areas of the empire. This means newly built schools are being built and staffed by Sevevillians and Connarians, while local Diyaristanis are being actively excluded from much of the rebuilding of their country.

Excellent. That should make it easier to rally the rebel forces and get more people to join the cause.

[Allanea]

We've got some difficult problems here.

On one hand, we've got Sevevill, who is a borderline-genocidal, or possibly entirely genocidal, evil empire.

On the other hand, we've got 'the rebels'. To be clear, the most powerful rebel faction (by virtue of the fact it controls several of the other rebel factions, by proxy, and it's not known to any of us in-character quite yet) is a bunch of completely evil dudes (who may claim to be Communist or Capitalist as it suits them but their actual agenda seems to be obsession with bringing back a totalitarian Orwell-on-steroids police state).

Also all of this is completely landlocked, with part of the land around the area controlled by Seevevill, and part by various factions also controlled by DTI (and therefore also part of the same faction).

Also it's super-polluted and contagious diseases are rampaging up and down the show.

So really the choices are:

1. Side with the genocidal guys.
2. Side with the Orwell-evil guys.
3. Full-scale mechanized war with aircraft carriers, tank divisions, the whole nine yards.
4. A really elaborate effort with spies trying to contact the few non-DTI connected rebels, and then use their help to bring down Sevevillian control over former LFN or Anavokia, and gradually using lots of espionage and behind-the-scenes cloak-dagger stuff… yeah, it's going to take literally dozens of thread-pages to get this stuff going.
5. Some combination of 3-4.

No way this could go badly for everyone involved, no sirree.

[Of course, if it goes tragically bad IC, that's part of the game – hopefully we'll all be fine OOC.]

[Allanea]

Okay, I've posted. I suppose the Jihadis or any of the other groups might tip my hand if they attacked the aid personnel.

Or they could not. It's really up to them. From the point of view of DTI there are obvious disadvantages to provoking Allanea, but I'm not sure how much detailed control DTI has of its proxies.

[Sevevill]

I imagine not being invaded would make most people more comfortable.

As for recognizing the rebels, its more of recognizing them as the legitimate rebel authority (as opposed to the leadership of the terrorist group(s)) than it is calling them the government of Diyaristan. In other words, the Alamardin government is the political body that would be negotiating/handling things like the independence(?) of Girizil on behalf of the rebels.

Okay, this makes sense. I can't really speak to how Sevevill treats the rebels, especially with regard to whether they are a legitimate group which can be negotiated with or are just terrorists, so IC I'll just not engage with it.

This recent event in Girizil will probably impact that anyways. I was already writing something about Sevevill clandestinely attempting to remove Danlina's executive authority in the city, but the move of the Danlinians to attack the democratically elected local government may give Sevevill exactly the excuse they need to oppose them in the open.

Or by, you know, sharing supplies (secretly) with the rebels. Point taken though.
Hmmm, I suddenly find myself contemplating the logistics of using B-2s to airdrop supplies...

Do this if you want. It sounds risky and expensive for very few supplies.

If it happens enough I'll ask Diyaristan to do some dice rolls for if Sevevill spots them or not.

Clearly you've never met the Mitheldalondian navy.

Seriously though, I do have over a hundred stealthy cruise missiles that can hit targets 1000 nmi inland parked somewhere off the coast of what may-or-may-not be Anavokia. If Sevevill is at all worried about Mitheldalond, that should be cause for some concern.

My fighters also have a combat radius of about 1000 nmi (depending on payload), so they should have plenty of range to operate over Diyaristan. At least, I assume. What's the scale on that map there?

Firstly: The best scale is that the island of Albatan is supposed to be the size of Poland. So yeah, it's a long ways. Also, it is now official that Anavokia is moved and that land is just more LFN. Work on the new map is moving fast on discord, and perhaps we should be having this conversation there.

Anyway, on to more of a response:

All this for what, exactly? Does Mitheldalond really care so much about this small desert nation to risk a war with a massive empire over it?

You know that for everything you can carry with your attack fleet, Sevevill can house much more on land bases. A missile strike on a base is trouble for that base and may disrupt operations there for a few hours, but an identical return missile strike on your ships will either force them to return home or even outright sink. The same goes for fighters, since Sevevill not only has far more fighters on their mainland but can use them more (better turnaround rate on spacious airbases), and those fighters will just be better than the ones launched from carriers since they don't need to be outfitted with kit for carrier operation.

Long story short: Sevevill would not think anybody would fight war over this, and are not exactly terrified about this fleet. However, if your navy starts rattling sabres off the coast Sevevill will send their own ships.

The issue isn't so much a lack of knowledge as it is the fact that it should be almost impossible, without stealth aircraft, to penetrate a modern integrated air defense system and radar network, presumably complimented by AWACS and fighter patrols, without being detected. Even stealth aircraft might have some difficulty pulling it off.

As for knowledge, satellite-based intelligence would give you information on fixed radar installations and defenses, as well at least some idea of aircraft distribution (by overflying air bases) and troop positions. And the reconnaissance flights I've been sending over Diyaristan could provide some notion of fighter patrol patterns and mobile SAM/radar movements. Not the greatest intel certainly, but better than nothing.

You may be overestimating what can be seen from a satellite. But regardless, we're on the same page about what can and cannot be flown in secretly.

Excellent. That should make it easier to rally the rebel forces and get more people to join the cause.

Probably. Give it a shot.

Okay, I've posted. I suppose the Jihadis or any of the other groups might tip my hand if they attacked the aid personnel.

Or they could not. It's really up to them. From the point of view of DTI there are obvious disadvantages to provoking Allanea, but I'm not sure how much detailed control DTI has of its proxies.

Hmmmm . . . perhaps I should repurpose my Sevevillian false flag attack from being performed on Danlina to attacking Allanea.

(Post by Green Union)

[Sevevill]

We've got some difficult problems here.

On one hand, we've got Sevevill, who is a borderline-genocidal, or possibly entirely genocidal, evil empire.

On the other hand, we've got 'the rebels'. To be clear, the most powerful rebel faction (by virtue of the fact it controls several of the other rebel factions, by proxy, and it's not known to any of us in-character quite yet) is a bunch of completely evil dudes (who may claim to be Communist or Capitalist as it suits them but their actual agenda seems to be obsession with bringing back a totalitarian Orwell-on-steroids police state).

Also all of this is completely landlocked, with part of the land around the area controlled by Seevevill, and part by various factions also controlled by DTI (and therefore also part of the same faction).

Also it's super-polluted and contagious diseases are rampaging up and down the show.

So really the choices are:

1. Side with the genocidal guys.
2. Side with the Orwell-evil guys.
3. Full-scale mechanized war with aircraft carriers, tank divisions, the whole nine yards.
4. A really elaborate effort with spies trying to contact the few non-DTI connected rebels, and then use their help to bring down Sevevillian control over former LFN or Anavokia, and gradually using lots of espionage and behind-the-scenes cloak-dagger stuff… yeah, it's going to take literally dozens of thread-pages to get this stuff going.
5. Some combination of 3-4.

No way this could go badly for everyone involved, no sirree.

[Of course, if it goes tragically bad IC, that's part of the game – hopefully we'll all be fine OOC.]

Perhaps the best route would be to back the mainstream rebels to win some decisive battles and then reach a deal with Sevevill for an independent state in western Diyaristan. This is basically the largest loss Sevevill has allowed me to accept in this RP, and any more I'll have to fully commit the IAF. The only way to dislodge Sevevill at that point would be a conventional war, which is far outside the scope of this counterinsurgency RP (though we aren't really doing much counterinsurgency either).

After securing the independence of the west and the stability of the east, I could largely withdraw Sevevill from this roleplay. The war after that would be much smaller, and we would not run the risk of kicking off a much larger incident which I am not prepared to handle the necessary post quantity for.

Of course, that's just an idea. But you can see where I'm sort of hoping to go with this.

(Post by Green Union)

[Allanea]

Right, I'm not saying it's not possible for us to succeed, but I am suggesting that the situation is somewhat complex (especially in light as nobody exactly knows IC who is who).

[Sevevill]

Right, I'm not saying it's not possible for us to succeed, but I am suggesting that the situation is somewhat complex (especially in light as nobody exactly knows IC who is who).

IC most nations seem to be at least secretly supporting the mainstream rebels. Nobody has had any massive falling out with the rebels, and Alamardin has not done anything we know about to suggest he or his followers are not serious about their liberal, secular ideology. I see no real reason why a breakdown between the communists, nationalists, etc. and the reveal of the real extremist elements couldn't wait until after at least part of the country receives independence from Sevevill.

Right now there is more or less a united front, with rebels and outside supporters in agreement that not Sevevill is the way of the future. However, most people are being kept from fully committing to the war on the rebel side due to Sevevill's control of the surrounding air and sea. Winning against Sevevill is far from impossible, but I fear I will not be able to handle such an escalation.

In the next couple posts I will be making moves which seriously weaken Sevevill's position in the west of the country. If someone wants to call for and/or offer to facilitate peace talks in the aftermath of this I would be happy to start on that.

(Post by Green Union)

[Mitheldalond]

Firstly: The best scale is that the island of Albatan is supposed to be the size of Poland. So yeah, it's a long ways. Also, it is now official that Anavokia is moved and that land is just more LFN.

Alright, thanks. I can work with that. Especially given my new strategy which I'll get to in a bit.

All this for what, exactly? Does Mitheldalond really care so much about this small desert nation to risk a war with a massive empire over it?

Yes and no. It's not so much Diyaristan specifically as it is going back to what King Eldahir was saying about Mitheldalond's WWII in my one IC post (don't go looking for the post, I'll cover it here). Basically, in the 1930s and 40s, Mitheldalond was somewhat isolationist, and highly non-interventionist. So when the far off nation of Mortaurë started to reestablish its former empire by invading and conquering its neighboring countries in 1935, Mitheldalond basically sat back and let it happen. Prevailing opinion was that it was too far away to affect Mitheldalond (which is an island roughly the size of Australia situated about 3000 miles from the nearest major landmass), and most of the nations Mortaurë conquered were actually better off under their rule, what with the influx of industry and resources the Mortaurans brought in so their new province could help support the war effort. Long story short, tensions between Mitheldalond and the Mortauran Empire continued to escalate (for various reasons) until war finally broke out in early 1941, by which point Mortaurë had expanded so much and become so powerful that they were almost unstoppable. For the first time in over 100 years, Mitheldalond was invaded, and over half of the country was overrun before the difficulty of supporting an invasion force 3000 miles away in the face of an increasingly powerful Mitheldalondian Navy allowed us to turn the tide. The war dragged on for several more years before Mortaurë was finally defeated.

So yeah, the current situation with Sevevill is strongly reminiscent of one of the darkest times in Mitheldalondian history, when our inaction almost caused our own destruction. Combine that with the recent revelation of Sevevill's extreme systematic human rights violations and probable straight up genocide, and the fact most other nations involved, as you say, seem to also be of the not Sevevill opinion, and there really isn't much chance of Mitheldalond NOT intervening.

You know that for everything you can carry with your attack fleet, Sevevill can house much more on land bases. A missile strike on a base is trouble for that base and may disrupt operations there for a few hours, but an identical return missile strike on your ships will either force them to return home or even outright sink. The same goes for fighters, since Sevevill not only has far more fighters on their mainland but can use them more (better turnaround rate on spacious airbases), and those fighters will just be better than the ones launched from carriers since they don't need to be outfitted with kit for carrier operation.

While most of this is true, a carrier group does have a few advantages as well. First of all, it's much easier to hide a carrier group than an airbase (that article is actually a really good read, in addition to being very informative). If you want to launch that return missile strike on my ships, you're going to have to find them first. The ocean is big, and the task force could be virtually anywhere around the coast and any distance from it.

Secondly, unlike airbases, carriers can move. They move pretty quickly too. At 30 knots, a carrier group can be over 800 miles from its original position in only 24 hours. At 35 knots, it can move over 40 miles in an hour. So even if you do find my ships, they could potentially be somewhere else completely by the time you can assemble a strike package and fly to the area.

Finally, carriers are generally more heavily defended than airbases. After all, most airbases don't have a flotilla of guided missile cruisers and destroyers guarding them, for the simple reason that a carrier is VASTLY more expensive than an airbase. Mitheldalondian naval forces and surface combatants were designed specifically to counter the kind of mass air strikes and missile spam you describe, and are extremely effective at this, with multiple layers of defenses, and SAMs with enough range to take out aircraft before they get close enough to launch the majority of anti-ship weapons.

We've got some difficult problems here.

On one hand, we've got Sevevill, who is a borderline-genocidal, or possibly entirely genocidal, evil empire.

On the other hand, we've got 'the rebels'. To be clear, the most powerful rebel faction (by virtue of the fact it controls several of the other rebel factions, by proxy, and it's not known to any of us in-character quite yet) is a bunch of completely evil dudes (who may claim to be Communist or Capitalist as it suits them but their actual agenda seems to be obsession with bringing back a totalitarian Orwell-on-steroids police state).

Also all of this is completely landlocked, with part of the land around the area controlled by Seevevill, and part by various factions also controlled by DTI (and therefore also part of the same faction).

Also it's super-polluted and contagious diseases are rampaging up and down the show.

So really the choices are:

1. Side with the genocidal guys.
2. Side with the Orwell-evil guys.
3. Full-scale mechanized war with aircraft carriers, tank divisions, the whole nine yards.
4. A really elaborate effort with spies trying to contact the few non-DTI connected rebels, and then use their help to bring down Sevevillian control over former LFN or Anavokia, and gradually using lots of espionage and behind-the-scenes cloak-dagger stuff… yeah, it's going to take literally dozens of thread-pages to get this stuff going.
5. Some combination of 3-4.

No way this could go badly for everyone involved, no sirree.

[Of course, if it goes tragically bad IC, that's part of the game – hopefully we'll all be fine OOC.]

Actually, given that we don't know IC that the main rebel group is evil yet, and we DO know that Sevevill is committing genocide, the choice of who to back should be pretty straightforward, given that IC the options currently look like:

1. Side with the genocidal guys
2. Side with the NOT genocidal guys

Granted, the fact that the main rebel command just used a bunch of chemical/biological WMDs that we previously thought were in the hands of the terrorists should certainly raise some suspicion.

That said, I would like to point out that the most recent use of said WMDs by the rebel leadership, while still objectionable, is actually the proper use of WMDs. They're only supposed to be used when the very existence of your nation (or group) is threatened, which is the idea behind mutually assured destruction. (Ideally of course, the THREAT of WMDs is supposed to prevent anyone from putting you in that position in the first place.)

Of course, given that it appears the organized rebellion is about to be crushed, there may not be a rebel government TO support. Which is why I propose option 6:

6. Punitive action. Sevevill is committing tons of egregious human rights violations and outright genocide. Regardless of the morality and ethics of the various Diyaristani rebels, Sevevill must be punished for these actions.

My current plan is to send in some special forces by helicopter to try to rescue the rebel leaders from Yarlaq, and then to work on establishing contact and communications protocols with whatever rebel groups they can find. Then to start helping them get organized and provide some training.

Meanwhile, my carrier group will be moving around the coast hitting Sevevillian targets in the LFN and elsewhere in retaliation for the genocide/etc.

Hopefully, the combination if an internationally-supported rebellion, carrier attacks (or whatever methods anyone else uses), and other international pressure will eventually be enough to force Sevevill to the negotiating table, where we can then push for an end to the genocide and that independent Diyari state GU/Sevevill mentioned.

Once that's done, we can focus on eliminating the evil Orwellian faction(s), rebuilding Diyaristan, and setting up a proper democratic government for them.

[A m e n r i a]

Which is why now that I have more time I should do something bigger. I was the first to send aid, and I made 2 posts about looking for rebels, which is why I'm asking if we could skip to the part where they find the rebels and pledge allegiance. If not, we can work it out. Afterwards, would summoning a carrier be fine or should I wait for further plot development?

In that case I can understand better. I have no authority over the IDF or the rebels, so I can't organized a run-in with either of those groups. However, if you want to have a Sevevillian IAF platoon get into a confrontation with your special forces so that they can show how badass they are then I would be happy to start something.

As for the direct forces, Diyaristan is still landlocked and completely surrounded by the Sevevillian empire. Sending a carrier fleet won't really help the rebels unless you somehow manage to sneak stealth planes in.

(Post by Green Union)

So you're suggesting I clear a path to the coast? Would suborbital bombing or a WMD be allowed? The latter is an array of minigun-like ion cannons stationed in the moon for me.

[Sevevill]

So yeah, the current situation with Sevevill is strongly reminiscent of one of the darkest times in Mitheldalondian history, when our inaction almost caused our own destruction. Combine that with the recent revelation of Sevevill's extreme systematic human rights violations and probable straight up genocide, and the fact most other nations involved, as you say, seem to also be of the not Sevevill opinion, and there really isn't much chance of Mitheldalond NOT intervening.

This is fair IC, but remember that this is a roleplay about a single conflict in a single corner of the empire. Starting WWIII against Sevevill on humanitarian grounds is something I'm not sure if I can agree to for OOC reasons, some of which I've touched on. Preferably, let's keep this focused on Diyaristan.

While most of this is true, a carrier group does have a few advantages as well. First of all, it's much easier to hide a carrier group than an airbase (that article is actually a really good read, in addition to being very informative). If you want to launch that return missile strike on my ships, you're going to have to find them first. The ocean is big, and the task force could be virtually anywhere around the coast and any distance from it.

Secondly, unlike airbases, carriers can move. They move pretty quickly too. At 30 knots, a carrier group can be over 800 miles from its original position in only 24 hours. At 35 knots, it can move over 40 miles in an hour. So even if you do find my ships, they could potentially be somewhere else completely by the time you can assemble a strike package and fly to the area.

Finally, carriers are generally more heavily defended than airbases. After all, most airbases don't have a flotilla of guided missile cruisers and destroyers guarding them, for the simple reason that a carrier is VASTLY more expensive than an airbase. Mitheldalondian naval forces and surface combatants were designed specifically to counter the kind of mass air strikes and missile spam you describe, and are extremely effective at this, with multiple layers of defenses, and SAMs with enough range to take out aircraft before they get close enough to launch the majority of anti-ship weapons.

This is also totally valid, but I'm mostly talking about the difference between your naval task force and the entire Sevevillian mainland. If your fleet is staying at a distance so as to avoid detection then Sevevill is, of course, not able to be concerned. Similarly, if they were loitering off the coast but said they were supporting Sevevill then Sevevill would not be concerned. This is, again, because they do not expect anyone would actually start a conventional war over this.

It's only if your ships begin getting close without permission or Mitheldalond begins seriously posturing against Sevevill that they would start to mobilize their own fleets and coastal patrol forces. Remember that no matter how well hidden the task force, your recon planes are still diving deep into Sevevillian airspace and can simply be followed (or, if Sevevill gets really pissed, shot down).

Of course, given that it appears the organized rebellion is about to be crushed, there may not be a rebel government TO support. Which is why I propose option 6:

IC it looks this way, but OOC it would be silly to end the RP here. Since the rebels have pulled together for a conventional battle and are deploying such a terrifying WMD, I will have them inflict a decisive defeat on the underprepared IDF. Sevevill will potentially be willing to compromise in the aftermath.

Of course, this is all in the future IC. I just want it clear that mapping this thread's future OOC should not assume a speedy defeat of the mainstream rebels.

6. Punitive action. Sevevill is committing tons of egregious human rights violations and outright genocide. Regardless of the morality and ethics of the various Diyaristani rebels, Sevevill must be punished for these actions.

My current plan is to send in some special forces by helicopter to try to rescue the rebel leaders from Yarlaq, and then to work on establishing contact and communications protocols with whatever rebel groups they can find. Then to start helping them get organized and provide some training.

Meanwhile, my carrier group will be moving around the coast hitting Sevevillian targets in the LFN and elsewhere in retaliation for the genocide/etc.

Hopefully, the combination if an internationally-supported rebellion, carrier attacks (or whatever methods anyone else uses), and other international pressure will eventually be enough to force Sevevill to the negotiating table, where we can then push for an end to the genocide and that independent Diyari state GU/Sevevill mentioned.

You are now talking about turning this into a thread about resisting Sevevill's imperial expansion, as opposed to one about the insurgency in Diyaristan. Let's find ways to keep the RP on topic, as opposed to escalating beyond the original incident.

So you're suggesting I clear a path to the coast? Would suborbital bombing or a WMD be allowed? The latter is an array of minigun-like ion cannons stationed in the moon for me.

I am most certainly not suggesting that. Doing so would be an unprovoked escalation of a small national insurgency, with all its intricacies and moral grey, into a black and white third world war. Not only would this be a terrible IC war crime, as civilians are obliterated without any declaration of war, but it would OOC ruin the multi-faceted war we currently have and degenerate the thread into a classic NationStates godmod fest.

Consider this: If you decide to attack Sevevill in the open, especially in this way, I will simply respond by saying Sevevill does the same with hundreds of nuclear missiles and orbital weapons platforms. MAD would kick in, and neither Sevevill nor Amenria would exist any more. In the ensuing nukefest, I would strike this RP from Markion canon and quietly withdraw.

Phew. Okay, rant over.

The last thing I would like to touch on is your nation's tech level. I know the RP is labelled MT/PMT, but that is mostly in relation to Markion's setting in an extremely soft PMT 2035. Pretty much everything should be written as if it was an alternate 2019, save for a few places where future or otherwise branched technology is allowed for mostly flavour reasons (large, expensive hologram projectors are an example). Having robot bears and horses which follow your troops around, advanced swords which are viable against guns, and earth-targeting ion miniguns on the Moon are all a little beyond this, and should perhaps be toned down just a bit.

(Post by Green Union)

[Bruke]

Alternate 2019? I’ve been struggling with the timeline for the longest time...

Diyaristan told me that there was a 5 year gap between the last RP (original one) and this one, so I was assuming this would be set in 2023/2024.

Hmm... does this mean the last RP was set in 2014? Because IC, Bruke would have neither the means nor motive to be involved in Diyaristan or the broader region.

In any case, can we date our IC material (communiques, emails, etc.) as if it was 2019? If so, what month and week is it?

[A m e n r i a]

Okay, I see a viable option then. Since the rebels are about to be finished, I'd suggest a dramatic entrance of my team, as a last stand for the good guys like any other fictional heroes would do. Should they win, this would be a badass moment that would be great for the RP. Should they lose, they can cover the escape for rebel remnants to go to Amenria. Also, I already have units on Sevevilian lands, so that's an automatic declaration of war, since Amenria has no special abilities that allows its unit to freely enter foreign soil, unlike the Buccaneers or Australia in Civilization V.

If that's alright with you, I'd like to know everything I need to so I can prepare a good enough setup, please.

[Durradon]

Okay, I see a viable option then. Since the rebels are about to be finished, I'd suggest a dramatic entrance of my team, as a last stand for the good guys like any other fictional heroes would do. Should they win, this would be a badass moment that would be great for the RP. Should they lose, they can cover the escape for rebel remnants to go to Amenria. Also, I already have units on Sevevilian lands, so that's an automatic declaration of war, since Amenria has no special abilities that allows its unit to freely enter foreign soil, unlike the Buccaneers or Australia in Civilization V.

If that's alright with you, I'd like to know everything I need to so I can prepare a good enough setup, please.

What the fuck.

Right, I'm going to be very blunt about this. Your operators are normal people who can still get shot with the Mozambique technique and die, they are not superheroes, this is not Total War Warhammer where one hero unit can kill a hundred men without breaking a sweat. There are no robot bears, there are no moon lasers. What we are asking is that you take everything down a billion notches and calm the heck down yeah? Enough silly technology and more actual tactics and strategy. There are no special abilities, no passive abilities, this is not Civ or league of legends. Absolutely no one in Markion (the region the RP is set in) recognises you and your actions currently. Please refrain from posting until you remove these aspects from your current posts in the IC thread.

Edit: Reading this back it sounds angry, I'm not, just trying to keep this RP from becoming a mess.

[Mitheldalond]

This is fair IC, but remember that this is a roleplay about a single conflict in a single corner of the empire. Starting WWIII against Sevevill on humanitarian grounds is something I'm not sure if I can agree to for OOC reasons, some of which I've touched on. Preferably, let's keep this focused on Diyaristan.

You are now talking about turning this into a thread about resisting Sevevill's imperial expansion, as opposed to one about the insurgency in Diyaristan. Let's find ways to keep the RP on topic, as opposed to escalating beyond the original incident.

The issue with this is, as you've made quite clear, that Diyaristan is landlocked and completely surrounded by Sevevill. There is no way to get forces, supplies, weapons, etc. to Diyaristan without going through Sevevill. There is no way to support the rebels without going through Sevevill.

We can't fly forces (or special forces advisors) or military supplies in because:

With none of these countries does simply flying over them really work. Large, military cargo planes would be spotted and intercepted by the Imperial Air Force, and your nations' air forces lack the local knowledge to sneak through.

and:

Sevevill will demand they operate by the rules of Hamara Administration air traffic control, and failing to do this will lead to them sharing the fate of the the Russian plane which has been flying around illegally.

Which also precludes us from flying in forces/supplies and pretending they're humanitarian aid, as we have to land at Sevevill-controlled airstrips, and presumably be subjected to IAF/IDF inspection to make sure we aren't trying exactly what we would be trying.

We can't land special forces or military supplies by ship or submarine and transport them over land to Diyaristan because:

Sevevill is massive and has a lot of ground for an infiltrator to cover before reaching Diyaristan.

and:

If a player writes about their troops just casually moving crates of guns through the open in LFN then I will make a move to intercept them with IAF forces.

Furthermore, even if we could find a way to insert troops:

you can only maintain supply to your troops in the country with Sevevill's goodwill, and that goodwill will be revoked if they feel you are undermining their cause.

So we've ruled out basically any means of supporting the rebellion with ground forces (and probably even military advisors/trainers) or weapons and other military supplies. The majority of options for naval support are out because, y'know, landlocked. Air support via fighters and attack aircraft is out because there are no friendly airbases anywhere in the area for them to land at and operate from, and even if the rebels could capture an airport for them to use:

Even if the Sevevillians didn't have complete air dominance around this small country, the rebels would not be able to get any supplies in before the Hamara Administration simply calls in the Imperial Air Force to bomb the place.

Strategic bombers are also out because Sevevill has complete air dominance. Also, any of these naval and air support options would obviously involve openly and directly opposing Sevevill. About the only option left to support the rebels would be carrier-based aviation, which would have to (and likely be unable to) fight its way through Sevevill before it could even GET to Diyaristan. And that would also be openly opposing Sevevill.

The fact that we can't do anything that could escalate this into a proper war (even though the RP is titled "Second Diyari War of Independence) basically means that the only way we could militarily support the rebels is by sending ground troops (which can, in small numbers, be hidden/disguised among the rebels, though there could still be issues with them actually fighting IAF/IDF forces) and military supplies. And we've already covered why that can't be done.

I think, if this is going to work, you're going to have to accept a few things:

1. Sevevill is not going to grant Diyari independence without international intervention. They are more than capable of crushing the Diyari rebellion, and they aren't just going to give up an Imperial province because some people living there threw a hissy-fit. They're just going to start killing and relocating people until the resistance dies out. They further don't want to grant Diyaristan independence because of regional and political instability that were the reasons they invaded in the first place.
2. Sevevill is also not willing to fight a full scale conventional war over Diyaristan.
3. Sevevill knows that several nations support or are sympathetic to the rebel cause, and some may be willing to use military force to help the rebels gain independence.
4. Sevevill is therefore not going to declare war over some cruise missile and air strikes against their forces in Diyaristan, or their forces blocking said strikes from getting TO Diyaristan. They will of course, still fight back.
5. Sevevill instead will most likely eventually offer to give at least part of Diyaristan independence in order to bring an end to the conflict and prevent further losses/escalation.

Alternatively, we DO turn this into a full-scale war, but with the understanding that Sevevill will keep all its current territory, minus the part of Diyaristan that is supposed to get its freedom, at the end of said war.

EDIT: Just so you know, I'm not actually angry or upset about any of this or anything, even if the post might sound that way.

[Mitheldalond]

Alternate 2019? I’ve been struggling with the timeline for the longest time...

Diyaristan told me that there was a 5 year gap between the last RP (original one) and this one, so I was assuming this would be set in 2023/2024.

Hmm... does this mean the last RP was set in 2014? Because IC, Bruke would have neither the means nor motive to be involved in Diyaristan or the broader region.

In any case, can we date our IC material (communiques, emails, etc.) as if it was 2019? If so, what month and week is it?

He just means that the RP is based on modern-day technology, not that it's literally the exact year 2019. The exact date doesn't matter so long as there are no military moon bases and orbital death lasers.

Okay, I see a viable option then. Since the rebels are about to be finished, I'd suggest a dramatic entrance of my team, as a last stand for the good guys like any other fictional heroes would do. Should they win, this would be a badass moment that would be great for the RP. Should they lose, they can cover the escape for rebel remnants to go to Amenria. Also, I already have units on Sevevilian lands, so that's an automatic declaration of war, since Amenria has no special abilities that allows its unit to freely enter foreign soil, unlike the Buccaneers or Australia in Civilization V.

If that's alright with you, I'd like to know everything I need to so I can prepare a good enough setup, please.

You can certainly have epic awesome hero-characters. You can also have characters that can't be killed for OOC reasons. You just can't then throw said characters up against a colossal enemy army and expect them to win because "plot armor".

You can have a dramatic entrance and have your characters do awesome stuff; people do this in real life, which is why things like the Medal of Honor exist. You just have to keep it within the bounds of what six(?) - admittedly highly trained and extremely skilled - normal humans can actually accomplish.

Also, this isn't Civilization. You can tell cause Ghandi hasn't nuked everybody yet.
No nation has special abilities.

[Bruke]

Alternate 2019? I’ve been struggling with the timeline for the longest time...

Diyaristan told me that there was a 5 year gap between the last RP (original one) and this one, so I was assuming this would be set in 2023/2024.

Hmm... does this mean the last RP was set in 2014? Because IC, Bruke would have neither the means nor motive to be involved in Diyaristan or the broader region.

In any case, can we date our IC material (communiques, emails, etc.) as if it was 2019? If so, what month and week is it?

He just means that the RP is based on modern-day technology, not that it's literally the exact year 2019. The exact date doesn't matter so long as there are no military moon bases and orbital death lasers.

Someone already had IC material dated 2035 though....

Isn’t it inconsistent to have one country label things as 2019, 2020, etc. and another label it 2035?

[Sevevill]

- Snip -

Damn, you perfectly played me with my own words. Well done.

Okay, I concede on the inability of players to get their field armies in being a problem. I guess I'm treating this more like my other insurgency RP, where the rules explicitly forbid large scale troop deployments or open declarations of war. Since this RP doesn't really have rules, it only seems reasonable that people want to go to full war.

Tell you what: This latest post with the Sevevill account is supposed to change things. Let's wipe the slate clean and start again based on that.

Alternate 2019? I’ve been struggling with the timeline for the longest time...

Diyaristan told me that there was a 5 year gap between the last RP (original one) and this one, so I was assuming this would be set in 2023/2024.

Hmm... does this mean the last RP was set in 2014? Because IC, Bruke would have neither the means nor motive to be involved in Diyaristan or the broader region.

In any case, can we date our IC material (communiques, emails, etc.) as if it was 2019? If so, what month and week is it?

He just means that the RP is based on modern-day technology, not that it's literally the exact year 2019. The exact date doesn't matter so long as there are no military moon bases and orbital death lasers.

This is correct. Tech is 2019 while Markion is spring of 2035, but this isn't really necessary to explicitly outline since that usually just leads to confusion. You can leave things vague.

(Post by Green Union)

[Alluscia]

Tagging thsi thread for later(it's Arcadia)

[A m e n r i a]

Alternate 2019? I’ve been struggling with the timeline for the longest time...

Diyaristan told me that there was a 5 year gap between the last RP (original one) and this one, so I was assuming this would be set in 2023/2024.

Hmm... does this mean the last RP was set in 2014? Because IC, Bruke would have neither the means nor motive to be involved in Diyaristan or the broader region.

In any case, can we date our IC material (communiques, emails, etc.) as if it was 2019? If so, what month and week is it?

He just means that the RP is based on modern-day technology, not that it's literally the exact year 2019. The exact date doesn't matter so long as there are no military moon bases and orbital death lasers.

Okay, I see a viable option then. Since the rebels are about to be finished, I'd suggest a dramatic entrance of my team, as a last stand for the good guys like any other fictional heroes would do. Should they win, this would be a badass moment that would be great for the RP. Should they lose, they can cover the escape for rebel remnants to go to Amenria. Also, I already have units on Sevevilian lands, so that's an automatic declaration of war, since Amenria has no special abilities that allows its unit to freely enter foreign soil, unlike the Buccaneers or Australia in Civilization V.

If that's alright with you, I'd like to know everything I need to so I can prepare a good enough setup, please.

You can certainly have epic awesome hero-characters. You can also have characters that can't be killed for OOC reasons. You just can't then throw said characters up against a colossal enemy army and expect them to win because "plot armor".

You can have a dramatic entrance and have your characters do awesome stuff; people do this in real life, which is why things like the Medal of Honor exist. You just have to keep it within the bounds of what six(?) - admittedly highly trained and extremely skilled - normal humans can actually accomplish.

Also, this isn't Civilization. You can tell cause Ghandi hasn't nuked everybody yet.
No nation has special abilities.

A reason why I've sent humans. So, could you please tell me all I need to wrap things up or are we prolonging the conflict further.

Okay, I see a viable option then. Since the rebels are about to be finished, I'd suggest a dramatic entrance of my team, as a last stand for the good guys like any other fictional heroes would do. Should they win, this would be a badass moment that would be great for the RP. Should they lose, they can cover the escape for rebel remnants to go to Amenria. Also, I already have units on Sevevilian lands, so that's an automatic declaration of war, since Amenria has no special abilities that allows its unit to freely enter foreign soil, unlike the Buccaneers or Australia in Civilization V.

If that's alright with you, I'd like to know everything I need to so I can prepare a good enough setup, please.

What the fuck.

Right, I'm going to be very blunt about this. Your operators are normal people who can still get shot with the Mozambique technique and die, they are not superheroes, this is not Total War Warhammer where one hero unit can kill a hundred men without breaking a sweat. There are no robot bears, there are no moon lasers. What we are asking is that you take everything down a billion notches and calm the heck down yeah? Enough silly technology and more actual tactics and strategy. There are no special abilities, no passive abilities, this is not Civ or league of legends. Absolutely no one in Markion (the region the RP is set in) recognises you and your actions currently. Please refrain from posting until you remove these aspects from your current posts in the IC thread.

Edit: Reading this back it sounds angry, I'm not, just trying to keep this RP from becoming a mess.

No. If anything, you're making it become a mess and ruin things. Conservation of Ninjutsu is a thing (albeit maybe not to levels you're suggesting, even Batman has difficulties against huge numbers of enemies) and "actual" tactics and strategy can be beaten to hell and back with the Power of Friendship. Or Love. Or some other optimistic, lifting, emotional noun that brings that fuzzy feeling to the audience. Why? Because this is Fiction Land, where stuff that would bore the audience are either plot fuel, horribly flawed, or simply not used. Durradon's response is proof enough not everyone on this thread wants a snorefest, though I'm still waiting an official response from Sevevill. And no, plot armour isn't something I might randomly throw in. I watch enough playthroughs, movies, and read enough comic books to properly handle a mortal surviving harsh times. Hell, I even want one of them captured so I can feature another player in my next, canon-important rp.

[Arcadian States and Commonwealths]

He just means that the RP is based on modern-day technology, not that it's literally the exact year 2019. The exact date doesn't matter so long as there are no military moon bases and orbital death lasers.


You can certainly have epic awesome hero-characters. You can also have characters that can't be killed for OOC reasons. You just can't then throw said characters up against a colossal enemy army and expect them to win because "plot armor".

You can have a dramatic entrance and have your characters do awesome stuff; people do this in real life, which is why things like the Medal of Honor exist. You just have to keep it within the bounds of what six(?) - admittedly highly trained and extremely skilled - normal humans can actually accomplish.

Also, this isn't Civilization. You can tell cause Ghandi hasn't nuked everybody yet.
No nation has special abilities.

A reason why I've sent humans. So, could you please tell me all I need to wrap things up or are we prolonging the conflict further.

What the fuck.

Right, I'm going to be very blunt about this. Your operators are normal people who can still get shot with the Mozambique technique and die, they are not superheroes, this is not Total War Warhammer where one hero unit can kill a hundred men without breaking a sweat. There are no robot bears, there are no moon lasers. What we are asking is that you take everything down a billion notches and calm the heck down yeah? Enough silly technology and more actual tactics and strategy. There are no special abilities, no passive abilities, this is not Civ or league of legends. Absolutely no one in Markion (the region the RP is set in) recognises you and your actions currently. Please refrain from posting until you remove these aspects from your current posts in the IC thread.

Edit: Reading this back it sounds angry, I'm not, just trying to keep this RP from becoming a mess.

No. If anything, you're making it become a mess and ruin things. Conservation of Ninjutsu is a thing (albeit maybe not to levels you're suggesting, even Batman has difficulties against huge numbers of enemies) and "actual" tactics and strategy can be beaten to hell and back with the Power of Friendship. Or Love. Or some other optimistic, lifting, emotional noun that brings that fuzzy feeling to the audience. Why? Because this is Fiction Land, where stuff that would bore the audience are either plot fuel, horribly flawed, or simply not used. Durradon's response is proof enough not everyone on this thread wants a snorefest, though I'm still waiting an official response from Sevevill. And no, plot armour isn't something I might randomly throw in. I watch enough playthroughs, movies, and read enough comic books to properly handle a mortal surviving harsh times. Hell, I even want one of them captured so I can feature another player in my next, canon-important rp.

Chill, Tv, movies and all of that is good for ideas but this RTS BS needs to stop, moons guns, robo bears, and all of that shit needs to stop. Yes this is fiction land but one with set rules that we have for our fiction land. We dont mind things like lasers instead of cannons on fighter jets, or small orbital colonies(like the formerly planned Mars One), but this is not fitting with the rules, the lore, and the other players.

Durradon's response is proof enough not everyone on this thread wants a snorefest

We have told you this RTS stuff has no place, we have let some things slide like 10,000 troops in one city and other things to allow players to take part in this RP, and many still do, if you think this is a snorefest I suggest you find yourself a new RP or make one yourself.