NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance Thread

[Erythrean Thebes]

This topic reminds me of the Statesmanship project in many ways. Of course, the most obvious takeaway from SMS was that it didn't work. I don't think more than a couple people are active IC there. Praetonia and the other admins of the website tried for a couple years to diagnose what the problem was. In general the whole community agreed that there was too much shooting the breeze on the IRC chat, compared to the dramatically lesser RPing that actually went up on the boards. In my experience, the distraction of talking and playing Steam all day was itself a big factor in the low activity level. What jumps out at me reading this next topic, is the realization that the IRC and the onsite wiki service posed an activity problem for Statesmanship partly because they wasted a lot of RPing activity that actually did go on, but didn't count for much. People were active daily on SMS, creating articles and national background, yet the website still failed.

A news article post, as an RPing contribution, is oftentimes similar to a wiki page. It adds information about the game world, but it doesn't advance a dedicated plot line. Of course, that's not necessarily true. An RP news article can contain information which advances the plot of an RP. But I think experienced players will agree that news posts are very similar to wiki articles in the sense that they often feature a certain specific kind of intent from the author. They tend to have a mostly worldbuilding or expository function. That has its appeals, but that kind of content is not necessarily the optimal for another player to build off of. (It can be - if you're intrigued by something depicted in a worldbuilding content, activity could arise from the outreach). It's kind of an irony, ultimately - because players are often most interested in their existing canons and game material, they tend to be more interested in content which opens up stories for them to involve their nations in, rather than purely worldbuilding activity.

Whether a news post is incongruous with the best RP standards, which is posted in an active RP and provides information which serves to advance the plot, rather than just adding more information about the game world, is ultimately a matter of personal taste.

[The State of Monavia]

My question about travelling is, how do you all find working from someone else's setting (or often failing to set) the scene for your travels?

When I'm dealing with writing a scene that takes place in another writer's setting, I'll try to get as much information as possible from them about that setting, and then when I write the post, I will establish the setting based off of what they said. Beyond that, I try to keep things as vague as I possibly can, in order to avoid godmodding (I don't want to take creative liberties with other peoples' work, so I choose to exercise caution).

I support your approach to this matter. Anytime I try to RP with others who does not state certain details in their IC posts, I have a habit of making a beeline for their factbook dispatches to locate the information I want, or failing that, send them telegrams.

[Snip.]

After being a part of NS for almost twelve years, I can state with some certainty that roleplay threads rely on news posts a lot more now than they did in 2006. In my opinion, this phenomenon is mostly the product of three major factors: general laziness, older players finding their NS time constrained by RL commitments so that they wind up performing low-effort RP writing, and newer players copying the RP styles that are easiest to imitate. At the risk of alluding to specific persons, I have noticed that the present news thread craze took off after the hard MT community started emerging three or four years ago.

I agree with all of your arguments about the advantages and drawbacks of relying on news posts in lieu of traditional IC content. In fact, I am willing to apply your arguments to diplomatic exchange threads and any IC threads where RPers post nothing but letters back and forth without any accompanying narration. While traditional RPing is about developing nations by telling stories, new thread RPing is more about inviting and provoking interactions between nations without having to spend much time worrying about creativity. In some respects, news thread RPs represent a more straightforward method of gameplay than nurturing a creative writing hobby, which is what traditional RPing becomes when done well.

This topic reminds me of the Statesmanship project in many ways. Of course, the most obvious takeaway from SMS was that it didn't work. I don't think more than a couple people are active IC there. Praetonia and the other admins of the website tried for a couple years to diagnose what the problem was. In general the whole community agreed that there was too much shooting the breeze on the IRC chat, compared to the dramatically lesser RPing that actually went up on the boards. In my experience, the distraction of talking and playing Steam all day was itself a big factor in the low activity level. What jumps out at me reading this next topic, is the realization that the IRC and the onsite wiki service posed an activity problem for Statesmanship partly because they wasted a lot of RPing activity that actually did go on, but didn't count for much. People were active daily on SMS, creating articles and national background, yet the website still failed.

Ah, someone finally brings up the Site-That-Must-Not-Be-Named! Back in 2012 and 2013, I noticed that a lot of iconic “big name” RPers were shifting their NS time from N&I and GET activities to posting in NSG. I began to hypothesize that NSG and F7 were cannibalizing the RP community and often shared thoughts along this line with others via telegrams and offsite boards. By 2014, I saw once-ubiquitous RPers spending hours every day there instead of RPing and finally dashed off a brief screed, which I later revised after receiving some input from a number of trusted friends. Here is my full, previously unpublished piece for your amusement:

There are many players among us who lament the long-term decline in the volume of quality roleplay threads on NS and the tragic exodus of secessionist emigrants to the Forum-That-Shall-Not-be-Named in an attempt to wall themselves off from the noob onslaught. Be that as it may, I was rather surprised over the last two to three years to see many roleplayers of high caliber end up congregating on General and spending several hours every day spamming it with tiny posts (which just so happen to inflate their post counts) while simultaneously complaining that they have no time to RP and endlessly lamenting the sorry state of incoming newbies.

This entire situation puzzles me. Why is it that so many of the veteran RPers who form the vanguard of the NS roleplaying community—a group of people who for years regarded NS General as an intellectual cesspool of the lowest order—had decided to wade through the place where the worst political sewage, cultural bilge, and opinionated bile in this entire site gets put on shameless display? How can various elements of the NS RP community justify their complaints about newbies being noobs when they are too busy posting in TET threads and making Polandball comics and whining like sore losers about U. S. Supreme Court decisions every June to bother with mentoring the newbies in the first place? I suppose that they are allured by a perverse fascination with watching General’s main attraction, which often takes the form of community members sparring with less sophistication and quality than arguments between grammar school students over their favorite cartoons. I confess that I am still at a loss to explain how it is that this appeal is strong enough to magnetically wrench RPers away from the quality roleplaying they once produced, but I do have one theory that may potentially be close to the mark.

There is no denying that quality RP is time-consuming, requires serious thought, and a bit of work to get anywhere. Players have to maintain solid OOC communication, develop characters and narratives, and demonstrate competency at making their stories believable, not to mention have a goal for which participants in a thread can aim. I have also found that arguing in General (and limiting one’s RPing time to posting in Create Your Own Everything threads, FNI threads titled What is X Like in Your Country, and posting in the NS Military Realism Consultation threads) are all things that require much less work than writing good roleplay threads, so perhaps there is some laziness involved.

When you enter NSG, you find yourself in a place where nobody else seems to care about your spelling and grammar, your ability to write, or anything else for that matter. There are no godmoding rules to worry about following and sportsmanship is not a concern because colorful language and insult-mongering are socially accepted as cheap ways to score points for fun. You do not need to roleplay a brilliant military maneuver to defeat an opponent (who just so happens to be on good OOC terms with you); instead you can simply point out one hole in an opponent’s otherwise good argument, call him an ideological traitor, or form a circle of haters to gang up on him. There is no protest when thirteen-year-old NSG posters who cannot be bothered to spend five minutes reading dictionary definitions slap labels of “Communist” on President Obama and “Fascist” on former President Bush with greater promiscuity than psychiatrists slap labels of “ADD” and “ADHD” on schoolchildren. In short, participation in NSG demands no real effort on the part of its participants to keep running and accumulate layer upon layer of electronic detritus, which is probably why old, bored RPers go there to retire from producing the roleplay threads that used to make NS great and eventually let their accounts die off.

So then, what does the NS RP community need to do to improve roleplay quality and revive communities once considered dead? The answer might just be a revolt against General. The fact of the matter is that good RPers are too busy drowning their RP (and RL) sorrows in a miasma of silliness by spending a majority of their time lurking and posting in NSG. I cannot guarantee that a mass exodus back to the Diplomacy sub-forum will reinvigorate the RP community, but perhaps it is worth a try. When NS is being forced to compete with increasingly entrenched second-rate competitors like eRepublik and CyberNations, do we really want to witness the continued decline of our greatest defining trait—freeform roleplay—that made us the nation simulator for which there is no acceptable substitute? I say no.

A news article post, as an RPing contribution, is oftentimes similar to a wiki page. It adds information about the game world, but it doesn't advance a dedicated plot line. Of course, that's not necessarily true. An RP news article can contain information which advances the plot of an RP. But I think experienced players will agree that news posts are very similar to wiki articles in the sense that they often feature a certain specific kind of intent from the author. They tend to have a mostly worldbuilding or expository function. That has its appeals, but that kind of content is not necessarily the optimal for another player to build off of. (It can be - if you're intrigued by something depicted in a worldbuilding content, activity could arise from the outreach). It's kind of an irony, ultimately - because players are often most interested in their existing canons and game material, they tend to be more interested in content which opens up stories for them to involve their nations in, rather than purely worldbuilding activity.

I think you just identified another major weakness of relying on news posts in lieu of traditional RP writing—news posts are not the easiest things to respond to, especially if they are merely intended to serve as worldbuilding aids or are not meant to serve as RP openers. They also tend to be short. There are some RPers (e.g. New Edom) who have a history of producing great news posts that have the degree of length, depth, and gravitas we expect from RL journalists, but most RPers are not as dedicated to quality as New Edom is. It usually is not easy to write anything worthwhile in response to a two-paragraph news post that begins with a massive picture that takes up more space than all of the text (never mind the posts where some newbie posts multiple random pictures in a cluster).

There are effective and ineffective ways to use news posts for RP purposes, but in many cases RPers have differing perspectives on what effectiveness even means. Some recognize the fact that they are using news posts in lieu of something else and make an effort to write accordingly. Others believe that a short news post stating something provocative is all they need because their goal is to grab the attention of other RPers and draw them into a quick RP somewhere. In other words, they are more interested in creating a flashpoint than kicking off some epic that will earn them a GD RP award. I believe that this divergence in approaches is the result of a divergence in player perspectives and values; these two groups are simply looking to get a different experiences out of NS.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

Personally I tend to like to use news posts for setting the scene or adding context. But an RP of pure scenery and context is like a cake with cherries and icing but no cake, or, from another point of view, a cake without cherries and icing. Very nice either way, but eventually indigestible.

So to be honest I'm not sure I agree with Macabees' saying you don't experience the world through all this context. Perhaps it would be better to say you don't follow the story (if there is one). And this ties in with Monavia's and Thebe's points - I'd conclude some people want stories more and some want worldbuilding more.

But if there isn't much of a story, I'll typically use news. I think both styles have a place in a balanced RP.

And I think Shwe Tu's right that FT etc. use threads more because they care more about creativity and storytelling than in hard MT circles. So Ghant, I think you'd be being too critical of Hard-MTers if you said "news posting is easy" - you're right that it can be, but that's not (only) why they do it. And you can have very creative news posts.

But it's certainly interesting to see the traditional bastions of RP storytelling pushing forth through NSMT to PMT.

Regarding Valeran's point that bias can be used, now I think back I do believe my best news post (and funnest to write) was when I lambasted Ausitoria's foreign policy. But I am often critical of my characters - I can be a very biased narrator. It's the cynic inside me... but that's a good point and one I'll take on.

By the way, thanks for replies to my questions - I'd agree in general, although that's why I often like sandboxes, puppet nations, where anybody can RP setting in as they like.

[The State of Monavia]

Personally I tend to like to use news posts for setting the scene or adding context. But an RP of pure scenery and context is like a cake with cherries and icing but no cake, or, from another point of view, a cake without cherries and icing. Very nice either way, but eventually indigestible.

This is quite the analogy! Sometimes I think we have a lot of frosting addicts zipping around the site in pursuit of their next sugar high.

So to be honest I'm not sure I agree with Macabees' saying you don't experience the world through all this context. Perhaps it would be better to say you don't follow the story (if there is one). And this ties in with Monavia's and Thebe's points - I'd conclude some people want stories more and some want worldbuilding more.

But if there isn't much of a story, I'll typically use news. I think both styles have a place in a balanced RP.

In some respects, both narrative RP and news posts result in some amount of worldbuilding. I think the issue that Ghant might have been trying to point out is that news posts are great for highlighting a specific moment in the history of a particular country, but when taken as a group, a string of news posts is more like a photo album (i.e. a chain of disembodied snapshots) while a narrative RP is more like a video. Although a photo album can tell a story, it just cannot capture things a video can, and some RPers miss this distinction to the detriment of good RP.

And I think Shwe Tu's right that FT etc. use threads more because they care more about creativity and storytelling than in hard MT circles. So Ghant, I think you'd be being too critical of Hard-MTers if you said "news posting is easy" - you're right that it can be, but that's not (only) why they do it. And you can have very creative news posts.

I will reiterate my points about some players knowing how to write news posts well and others acting like they are in a hurry.

[The Macabees]

For the record, I don't think the point is that you can't worldbuild with a news post. Neither would I say there's no story to a news post or a group of news posts.

The point is that worldbuilding through a character can be completely different from worldbuilding through a news story. The reader should be able to identify or empathize with a character, and thus that world suddenly becomes relevant and interesting.

Worlds are not objective, they are perceived. And this is what makes the world real, believable, and breathing.

But again, I don't know if this is necessarily a characteristic of a news post. It could be that news posts on NS is just where this is most visible, because like I said in an earlier post I'd say that, for example, the majority of war RPers would rather narrate a conflict than use the conflict as a setting for a group of characters that have their own internal tension and plot.

[The Macabees]

For example, I think this style of news post is very different from the typical news post that most players write (including myself): viewtopic.php?p=31570479#p31570479

And it's not to toot my own horn, because the writing I'm most critical of is my own.

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

That is certainly the most storytelling I have ever seen in a news post. It's certainly a memory through time, not a snapshot of time.

But I still disagree: worlds can exist instantaneously, and without any RP character percieving them. Then they can be percieved in the imagination of the readers and writers. Give a person enough framing devices and, if they know enough about society, economics, and geography, they can fill in the gaps in their own heads, just as a central banker will take a hundred statistics from different points of time and decide whether to raise interest rates. This is one reason why an objective newspiece is valuable.

To an extent we're already doing this whether writing news or not. Nobody has the time to present a world in full detail. But a dozen snapshots means the reader can have more freedom in their perception of the world you've built, and for that matter more freedom to build on it and interact in it themselves. Provide a person with a skeleton and they may arrange it wrong, but they don't really need you to take them through it.

Just as an example, a snapshot of mine from a story:

The palace was ancient, the trappings modern; and the operations room a flurry of business overlooked from the dais. From here the dictator ruled, carried to power on a wave of liberal socialist agitation that had held so much hope. The tale of how the predecessor nation had come crashing down may be celebrated elsewhere; and the subsequent communist corruption commiserated in the history books as a salutary lesson of how not to manage a revolution.

But history is littered with so many examples that you can guess at all that; now, great things are happening, and nobody has any time for history.

This is an RP I purposefully designed with an economy of detail so people would use their imaginations. (And to save me time).

In short I'm unconvinced people have to be told a story by a character to believe a world?

Personally I tend to like to use news posts for setting the scene or adding context. But an RP of pure scenery and context is like a cake with cherries and icing but no cake, or, from another point of view, a cake without cherries and icing. Very nice either way, but eventually indigestible.

This is quite the analogy! Sometimes I think we have a lot of frosting addicts zipping around the site in pursuit of their next sugar high.

A good analogy is worth a thousand pictures!

And I think I'd add the photo album vs. film analogy to the list of good ones.

I will reiterate my points about some players knowing how to write news posts well and others acting like they are in a hurry.

Of course you're right, but let's not forget the category of players knowing how to write news posts well and actually being rushed for time. RPers have varyingly busy lives - indeed I maintain most of the better RPers are also the most busy - and much as I do try to encourage more activity, I'm not about to complain if people lead busy lives and I'm not about to cut them out of slower RPing. (I don't expect any of us do, but at times I get a bit worried that it happens too regularly). Some of the best RPs are slow, without time pressure.

[Yohannes]

Alright I will break my silence. Who said news posts are all easy? I want to see your reasoning.

I am a primarily news post storyteller these days so I see this as an attack against myself (and those who write with newsposts primarily). I am very open-minded (I like NSMT mixed with realism, I like fantasy, etc.). I don't like it when others who are too close-minded attack the style of RPing that I happen to like.

So I will defend my position against any statements like "all news posts are easy". And I will show you one example why, in fact, news-posts can be harder (and in fact requires more research) than a long ass post about a queen that marries a king, on and on and on and on, words words word words, no diplomacy realism at all. Just words and words and words. No technical information behind them. Just made long for the sake of making it wrong. Html and formatting, fancy words used. But no substance at all.

See what I did there? I am being close-minded.

Edit: There! I turned my text into a blocktext to make it fancy! Oh I am such a wonderful and higher quality roleplayer! (just let me turn this into a 10,000 long ass words post about a king that marries a queen)

[Yohannes]

---

Also, I thought this is supposed to be a "NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance" thread?

So why are people not talking about things that actually matters: NationStates Modern Technology, creative technology (e.g. Lamoni, Lyran style, Etoile Arcture [sorry if I misspell your name dude], Pharthan style technology, etc.]?

Why are people not talking about actual technology and industrial or military designs? Why are people instead attacking other players who RP in a different way than them? I mean, c'mon guys. Really?

Edit: I mean, c'mon: "NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance Thread."

"Let's talk about newsposts and how people who RP with newsposts are lower quality RPers or they are too lazy to write 5,000 words posts."

Really?

Edit: I love browsing this thread and I used to post here (and liking it) because I thought this is an open-minded neutral thread, not a place where people attack other people. I don't want to see this thread turning into... you guys know what.

Edit: There! I turned my text into a blocktext to make it fancy! Oh I am such a wonderful and higher quality roleplayer! (just let me turn this into a 10,000 long ass words post about a king that marries a queen).... with no NSMT diplomacy realism behind it at all

[Yohannes]

NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance Thread

"Let's talk about superpowers"

"Let's talk about writing long ass king marries a queen post"

"Let's talk about fancy beautiful html formatting and blocktext writing"

"Let's talk about waiting for your troops to arrive post"

"LET'S ATTACK OTHER PLAYERS WHO ARE DIFFERENT THAN US!"

Someone who are more well acquainted with military and industrial technology - perhaps like The Macabees, Lamoni, The State of Monavia, or anyone who is more technically competent but also OOC wise NEUTRAL at the same time - should replace Ghant as OP of this thread. Ghant clearly knows nothing at all about military technology and making him an OP of a "NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance Thread" will turn this thread into a non-neutral, non-technology, biased thread.

At the moment, this is as much a "community" thread as it is a parody. How can someone who knows nothing about economic, technical, military, etc. information being made an opening poster of a "community" thread about NationStates Modern Technology?

I'd rather not see him giving wrong advice about technical information to new players!

I know I am going to to take the flak for this post but I don't care. If Ghant is going to ask the Forum Moderators (which, by the way, he can do that is completely fine as he is the opening poster after all) to remove this post, then that highlight even more why he should not be made an opening poster.

Ghant has strong points: he is a really good creative writer (much better than anyone I know on NationStates). But unfortunately a "Technology" thread is not the right thread for him to chair/lead.

[Allanea]

I believe you’re misreading the thread title if you think that this is intended to be a technology advice thread in that sense. Certainly from the get-go I have believed that this is an advice thread for the ‘Nationstates Modern Tech’ roleplay milieu, rather than an advice thread about ‘modern tech’ military technology.

[New Aeyariss]

At the moment, this is as much a "community" thread as it is a parody. How can someone who knows nothing about economic, technical, military, etc. information being made an opening poster of a "community" thread about NationStates Modern Technology?

Modern Technology does not refer itself merely to assistance regarding technology; it also concerns itself with ability to RP within certain environment. By my own observation Ghant has clearly proven himself capable of RPing within Hard MT environments such as Cornellia. In addition to that he is a well respected RPer and though he has some flaws, I do believe he is a valid and decent choice for this position.

And even if he has the drawbacks, there is always others (myself included) who are willing to provide him with aid. After all, the best situation is to compare this to staff of a president - president does not need to be expert on everything, because he has his staff members who are willing to assist with their respective duties.

To expect complete knowledge on all aspects of MT RPing from one person is madness.

"LET'S ATTACK OTHER PLAYERS WHO ARE DIFFERENT THAN US!"

I don't think that there is any attack going on, with all due respect.

Alright I will break my silence. Who said news posts are all easy? I want to see your reasoning.

I am a primarily news post storyteller these days so I see this as an attack against myself (and those who write with newsposts primarily). I am very open-minded (I like NSMT mixed with realism, I like fantasy, etc.). I don't like it when others who are too close-minded attack the style of RPing that I happen to like.

I don't think anyone said that news posters are lazy. To me, News post are vital capability of RPing international relations; they set a background for how Shogun Kojiro acts and perceived the world around him. They also often define his future actions.

[Yohannes]

Okay, if that is true that no one is attacking people who happen to like to roleplay in a different way than them (i.e. through posting news), then that is good. NationStates is meant to be an open world where everyone can roleplay whatever they want (so long as they don't break the forum rules). I believe this is a common knowledge (which can be lost sometimes when people think they are the best of the bunch)

And I will fight for that kind of open-mindedness even if that will ruin my "reputation".

The last thing we need is to turn this thread into a thread where people attack other people's style of RPing. We don't want to turn this thread into a close-minded, elitist ("important people only!" or "our way is better than them!") thread (hint for some posters here who know what I am hinting at).

The fact that we can agree and disagree with one another is good. And thank you for disagreeing with me Allanea and New Aeyariss (and others), though unfortunately I will still stand by my position that I believe someone else should be the opening poster of this thread.

Thank you.

[Allanea]

Now, let me first say that I am not at all interested in participating in debate on who is, and who is not, a good roleplayer. I have in my experience enjoyed roleplaying with players who are commonly considered ‘bad’ at least as much, if not more, than those that are commonly considered ‘good’. I am probably considered a ‘bad’ roleplayer by quite a few.

But I am interested in participating in a debate on what is, and what is not, a good roleplaying practice. Bad roleplaying practices are sometimes seen with people who are overall good roleplayers, indeed some of the best.

Wikipedia defines roleplaying games as such:

A role-playing game is a game in which the participants assume the roles of characters and collaboratively create stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterisation, and the actions succeed or fail according to a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, they may improvise freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

From this we can see that the essence of roleplaying is to portray the actions of characters (on NS, often entire nations), in a collaborative context (with other people), and in an improvised manner. A scripted performance, or even an impro play where the plot’s outcome is known in advance is not, strictly speaking, roleplaying.

The activity of drawing maps for your nation, developing its legal system, military, language, religion etc. is referred to as worldbuilding:

"Worldbuilding is the process of constructing an imaginary world, sometimes associated with a whole fictional universe. The resulting world may be called a constructed world. Developing an imaginary setting with coherent qualities such as a history, geography, and ecology is a key task for many science fiction or fantasy writers. Worldbuilding often involves the creation of maps, a backstory, and people for the world. Constructed worlds can enrich the backstory and history of fictional works, and it is not uncommon for authors to revise their constructed worlds while completing its associated work. Constructed worlds can be created for personal amusement and mental exercise, or for specific creative endeavors such as novels, video games, or role-playing games.

It is entirely possible for a player to focus so much on worldbuilding their nation (or, for a group of players, their region), that they don’t actually engage in any roleplaying activities in the sense of portraying the actions of their characters and nations in an improvised, unscripted manner.

This is a fun hobby, but it’s not roleplaying.

On the matter of news posts, they hold within themselves an advantage and a disadvantage. On one hand, a player can use a news post as a way to briefly inform other players of developments in their nation. Often this is used to be able to “have” a certain technology, or some manner of institution or item in your nation, because you have after all posted about making it and introduced it in advance.

Arguably, this is a bad practice, for two reasons:

1. It rarely provides anything to interact with.
2. It often implies the newspost as an accurate, “official account” of the events.

But the good thing about newsposts is that they don’t have to be accurate!

Consider the following layers of narration:

1. What “actually” occurs in the setting of your story.
2. What the reader is told about it.

In a regular post, the player writing the post usually functions as a reliable narrator:

“At 08:00 the Bigtopian knights unsheathed their swords and slew the dragon.”

The reader surmises from this that this is what occurred in-universe. He might decide that for whatever reason he sides with the dragon, or that his nation IC will protest the dragon’s untimely death. But it’s indisputable that at 08:00, Bigtopian knights slew the dragon.

But what if we do this:

“BNN, Bigtopia-City – The infamous dragon, Caskadon, was reported dead this morning at 08:00, slain by the King’s loyal knights, Sirs Donald, Ronald and Monald.”

Perhaps Caskadon is not dead, and BNN is lying to portray the knights in a positive light.
Perhaps he was actually slain the night before, and Bigtopian propaganda is misrepresenting the circumstances of his death.

Used in this way, I think, newsposts are actually quite helpful because they help portray the [fairly reasonable] fact that your nation has a variety of perspectives on the events.

[The State of Monavia]

For example, I think this style of news post is very different from the typical news post that most players write (including myself): viewtopic.php?p=31570479#p31570479

And it's not to toot my own horn, because the writing I'm most critical of is my own.

Your linked post represents a perfect example of a news post done well (even superbly), sans a number of spelling mistakes. I also think I share your habit of harsh self-criticism, but that can be a basis for another discussion.

That is certainly the most storytelling I have ever seen in a news post. It's certainly a memory through time, not a snapshot of time.

I agree with your claim that the post in question seems more like a story than a snapshot, mainly because it has some of the same literary aesthetics as a traditional RP post.

But I still disagree: worlds can exist instantaneously, and without any RP character percieving [sic] them. Then they can be percieved [sic] in the imagination of the readers and writers. Give a person enough framing devices and, if they know enough about society, economics, and geography, they can fill in the gaps in their own heads, just as a central banker will take a hundred statistics from different points of time and decide whether to raise interest rates. This is one reason why an objective newspiece is valuable.

You are correct in the sense that RP characters do not need to perceive their IC environment in order for that environment to exist in my mind when I read about it. You are also correct in stating that my imagination can form a solid mental picture if I have enough framing devices and background information in mind; however, I want to make a point about enough being the operative word in your assertion. For instance, when I read the RP sample you quoted in the spoiler, you more than satisfied your need for economy of detail. In fact, you overdid it to the point where my imagination had so much filling in to do that all I could come up with were vague, grainy, low-resolution imaginings. Too much of a good thing can sometimes cause the same effects as having too little. Now, it is perfectly possible that you quoted a snippet from a piece that either explained everything in greater detail earlier or clarifies it all later, such that my imagination has a few additional dots to connect, but I have no way of knowing that just by examining your example by itself.

To an extent we're already doing this whether writing news or not. Nobody has the time to present a world in full detail. But a dozen snapshots means the reader can have more freedom in their perception of the world you've built, and for that matter more freedom to build on it and interact in it themselves. Provide a person with a skeleton and they may arrange it wrong, but they don't really need you to take them through it.

I think we both agree that nobody should be expected to write things that are impossible to write. As much as I want to agree with your skeleton analogy, my own experience has left me questioning the degree to which writers can reasonably expect their readers not to misinterpret things in a way that kills and RP thread. This is probably the most cynical statements I have posted in this thread, but I have my reasons for asserting its truth, beginning with RPs that I have seen derailed by such incidents.

This is quite the analogy! Sometimes I think we have a lot of frosting addicts zipping around the site in pursuit of their next sugar high.

A good analogy is worth a thousand pictures!

And I think I'd add the photo album vs. film analogy to the list of good ones.

Thank you.

I will reiterate my points about some players knowing how to write news posts well and others acting like they are in a hurry.

Of course you're right, but let's not forget the category of players knowing how to write news posts well and actually being rushed for time. RPers have varyingly busy lives - indeed I maintain most of the better RPers are also the most busy - and much as I do try to encourage more activity, I'm not about to complain if people lead busy lives and I'm not about to cut them out of slower RPing. (I don't expect any of us do, but at times I get a bit worried that it happens too regularly). Some of the best RPs are slow, without time pressure.

I generally agree and do not find fault with anyone for realistically responding to RL constraints. Indeed, I would be the biggest hypocrite on this board if I did.

Alright I will break my silence. Who said news posts are all easy? I want to see your reasoning.

Nobody explicitly stated that news posts were easy to write or implied that they are always a cakewalk to produce; however, they are easier to produce in the sense that they are (usually) less reliant on character development than traditional RP posts. I believe the original remark Ghant posted that got under your skin was this one:

Fastforward [sic] to today. I can safely say that RPing through news posts has become the primary form of RPing in MT on the whole (as opposed to, I would argue, PMT, FT and FanT, which seem far more thread oriented). I've heard many, many arguments about why this is, and I'm sure you've at least one considered this yourself. I think it has to do with "ease of production." In essence, MT is the basic tech setting, and the one that most closely matches RL in terms of geopolitics, technology, military aspects, etc. The "higher" tech levels are far more complex by comparison and require a great deal more "creativity" in order to execute properly (anyone who writes at those tech levels is welcome to provide some insights into this).

I am a primarily news post storyteller these days so I see this as an attack against myself (and those who write with newsposts [sic] primarily). I am very open-minded (I like NSMT mixed with realism, I like fantasy, etc.). I don't like it when others who are too close-minded attack the style of RPing that I happen to like.

Nothing in this thread is meant as a general indictment of news-based IC posting. To the extent that anyone here is criticizing this particular RP method, their criticism is limited to pointing out the ways in which news posts can be poorly written or written for the wrong reasons. As I have now mentioned twice, there are good and bad ways to produce news posts (just as there are good and bad ways to produce any other type of post).

So I will defend my position against any statements like "all news posts are easy". And I will show you one example why, in fact, news-posts can be harder (and in fact requires more research) than a long ass post about a queen that marries a king, on and on and on and on, words words word words, no diplomacy realism at all.

The example Mac posted proves your point.

Just words and words and words. No technical information behind them. Just made long for the sake of making it wrong. Html and formatting, fancy words used. But no substance at all.

See what I did there? I am being close-minded.

Edit: There! I turned my text into a blocktext to make it fancy! Oh I am such a wonderful and higher quality roleplayer! (just let me turn this into a 10,000 long ass words post about a king that marries a queen)

To be fair, I do have an issue with RPers using reduced text and blocktext formatting for anything other than block quotes in OOC threads and IC correspondence in IC threads. I for one am very particular about following the formatting that U.S. publishing houses have tried to make common over the last century.

Also, I thought this is supposed to be a "NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance" thread?

So why are people not talking about things that actually matters: NationStates Modern Technology, creative technology (e.g. Lamoni, Lyran style, Etoile Arcture [sorry if I misspell your name dude], Pharthan style technology, etc.]?

Why are people not talking about actual technology and industrial or military designs? Why are people instead attacking other players who RP in a different way than them? I mean, c'mon guys. Really?

Edit: I mean, c'mon: "NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance Thread."

There are specialty consultation threads for matters like national factbooks (which are dominated by MT RPers) and military realism, among other topics. We have discussed a lot of MT stuff earlier in this thread and Ghant ran it rather competently, at least while I have been around.

"Let's talk about newsposts and how people who RP with newsposts are lower quality RPers or they are too lazy to write 5,000 words posts."

Really?

Ghant initiated this particular discussion by pointing out the fact that news-based IC posts have soared in popularity among the MT RP community much more than they have among other RP communities and then positing an explanation as to why this phenomenon might be occurring.

Edit: I love browsing this thread and I used to post here (and liking it) because I thought this is an open-minded neutral thread, not a place where people attack other people. I don't want to see this thread turning into... you guys know what.

I do not know what specific thing you are worried about this thread becoming.

Edit: There! I turned my text into a blocktext to make it fancy! Oh I am such a wonderful and higher quality roleplayer! (just let me turn this into a 10,000 long ass words post about a king that marries a queen).... with no NSMT diplomacy realism behind it at all

I regretfully admit the that intention behind this piece of snark is lost on me.

NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance Thread

"Let's talk about superpowers"

That discussion took place in a separate thread.

"Let's talk about writing long ass king marries a queen post"

"Let's talk about fancy beautiful html formatting and blocktext writing"

I do not recall discussing these items in this thread. Perhaps I might have missed those discussions. If so, I stand corrected.

"Let's talk about waiting for your troops to arrive post"

That topic is surprisingly more relevant to RP than many people think.

"LET'S ATTACK OTHER PLAYERS WHO ARE DIFFERENT THAN US!"

That is not what anyone appears to be attempting here. In fact, if any of us had such hostile intentions, I am pretty sure we would have the stomach to explicitly say so.

Someone who are more well acquainted with military and industrial technology - perhaps like The Macabees, Lamoni, The State of Monavia, or anyone who is more technically competent but also OOC wise NEUTRAL at the same time - should replace Ghant as OP of this thread. Ghant clearly knows nothing at all about military technology and making him an OP of a "NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance Thread" will turn this thread into a non-neutral, non-technology, biased thread.

It is not technically possible to replace the founder of a message board thread. Per numerous statements made by site moderators, thread ownership rights are absolute apart from the right of Moderation to delete or edit a thread in the event of an actual rule violation. I might not be a moderator, but I think I am not blowing any smoke when I claim that there is no rule-breaking happening here.

At the moment, this is as much a "community" thread as it is a parody. How can someone who knows nothing about economic, technical, military, etc. information being made an opening poster of a "community" thread about NationStates Modern Technology?

The RP history that Ghant has ricked up over time clearly demonstrates a firm (if imperfect) grasp of many MT RP issues. If Ghant was as incompetent as you are trying to imply, he would not have earned a very exclusive RP award from Mac.

I'd rather not see him giving wrong advice about technical information to new players!

I would rather not see anyone offer bad technical information to new players, but this is not a highly technical thread.

I know I am going to to take the flak for this post but I don't care. If Ghant is going to ask the Forum Moderators (which, by the way, he can do that is completely fine as he is the opening poster after all) to remove this post, then that highlight even more why he should not be made an opening poster.

While I presently think it wise to disagree with some of your assertions, I do not want any of my responses to you to be construed as flak lest I be guilty of exacerbating the state of our present discussion.

Ghant has strong points: he is a really good creative writer (much better than anyone I know on NationStates). But unfortunately a "Technology" thread is not the right thread for him to chair/lead.

Thus far I have found no damning reasons to question whether Ghant is fit to run this thread.

I believe you’re misreading the thread title if you think that this is intended to be a technology advice thread in that sense. Certainly from the get-go I have believed that this is an advice thread for the ‘Nationstates Modern Tech’ roleplay milieu, rather than an advice thread about ‘modern tech’ military technology.

Aye, my understanding of this thread is that its purpose is to serve as a forum for discussing the art of writing and roleplaying in an MT story environment.

At the moment, this is as much a "community" thread as it is a parody. How can someone who knows nothing about economic, technical, military, etc. information being made an opening poster of a "community" thread about NationStates Modern Technology?

Modern Technology does not refer itself merely to assistance regarding technology; it also concerns itself with ability to RP within certain environment. By my own observation Ghant has clearly proven himself capable of RPing within Hard MT environments such as Cornellia. In addition to that he is a well respected RPer and though he has some flaws, I do believe he is a valid and decent choice for this position.

And even if he has the drawbacks, there is always others (myself included) who are willing to provide him with aid. After all, the best situation is to compare this to staff of a president - president does not need to be expert on everything, because he has his staff members who are willing to assist with their respective duties.

To expect complete knowledge on all aspects of MT RPing from one person is madness.

I am also willing to step up if needed. This is, after all, a discussion thread, not a lecture thread. Ghant did not create this thread so serve as a forum for delivering expert lectures while ostensibly representing his or her self as some sort of subject matter guru.

"LET'S ATTACK OTHER PLAYERS WHO ARE DIFFERENT THAN US!"

I don't think that there is any attack going on, with all due respect.

You are quicker on the draw than I am in making this point.

Okay, if that is true that no one is attacking people who happen to like to roleplay in a different way than them (i.e. through posting news), then that is good. NationStates is meant to be an open world where everyone can roleplay whatever they want (so long as they don't break the forum rules). I believe this is a common knowledge (which can be lost sometimes when people think they are the best of the bunch)

And I will fight for that kind of open-mindedness even if that will ruin my "reputation".

The last thing we need is to turn this thread into a thread where people attack other people's style of RPing. We don't want to turn this thread into a close-minded, elitist ("important people only!" or "our way is better than them!") thread (hint for some posters here who know what I am hinting at).

The fact that we can agree and disagree with one another is good. And thank you for disagreeing with me Allanea and New Aeyariss (and others), though unfortunately I will still stand by my position that I believe someone else should be the opening poster of this thread.

Thank you.

Thus far I have seen no evidence of anyone representing this thread as some sort of exclusive club or asking anyone to leave purely for being inexperienced at RPing or something like that. Having pointed that out, one of the most important points I like to reiterate around here is that some ways of RPing a particular event, character, setting, plot, trope, theme, or other matter are more effective and pleasurable than others. I have never called for the game moderators to enact any hard-and-fast rules prohibiting specific RP practices and techniques, even when their merits are questionable, nor have I ever called for people to be banned from RPing or ostracized for expressing certain RP preferences.

Now, let me first say that I am not at all interested in participating in debate on who is, and who is not, a good roleplayer. I have in my experience enjoyed roleplaying with players who are commonly considered ‘bad’ at least as much, if not more, than those that are commonly considered ‘good’. I am probably considered a ‘bad’ roleplayer by quite a few.

How so?

But I am interested in participating in a debate on what is, and what is not, a good roleplaying practice. Bad roleplaying practices are sometimes seen with people who are overall good roleplayers, indeed some of the best.

This is very true.

It is entirely possible for a player to focus so much on worldbuilding their nation (or, for a group of players, their region), that they don’t actually engage in any roleplaying activities in the sense of portraying the actions of their characters and nations in an improvised, unscripted manner.

This is a fun hobby, but it’s not roleplaying.

There are numerous occasions on which I should have plead guilty to this, especially over the last four years.

On the matter of news posts, they hold within themselves an advantage and a disadvantage. On one hand, a player can use a news post as a way to briefly inform other players of developments in their nation. Often this is used to be able to “have” a certain technology, or some manner of institution or item in your nation, because you have after all posted about making it and introduced it in advance.

Arguably, this is a bad practice, for two reasons:

1. It rarely provides anything to interact with.
2. It often implies the newspost as an accurate, “official account” of the events.

But the good thing about newsposts is that they don’t have to be accurate!

Consider the following layers of narration:

1. What “actually” occurs in the setting of your story.
2. What the reader is told about it.

In a regular post, the player writing the post usually functions as a reliable narrator:

“At 08:00 the Bigtopian knights unsheathed their swords and slew the dragon.”

The reader surmises from this that this is what occurred in-universe. He might decide that for whatever reason he sides with the dragon, or that his nation IC will protest the dragon’s untimely death. But it’s indisputable that at 08:00, Bigtopian knights slew the dragon.

But what if we do this:

“BNN, Bigtopia-City – The infamous dragon, Caskadon, was reported dead this morning at 08:00, slain by the King’s loyal knights, Sirs Donald, Ronald and Monald.”

Perhaps Caskadon is not dead, and BNN is lying to portray the knights in a positive light.
Perhaps he was actually slain the night before, and Bigtopian propaganda is misrepresenting the circumstances of his death.

Used in this way, I think, newsposts are actually quite helpful because they help portray the [fairly reasonable] fact that your nation has a variety of perspectives on the events.

This is a very effective example of how news posts can backfire as a matter of RP effectiveness. If one RPer writes a news post that contains IC misinformation, but neither adds OOC notes pointing this fact out nor third-person narration explaining what is really happening, then we have a problem. In a good RP thread, one RPer tries to get his or her characters to fool the characters belonging to another RPer. The goal is not for one RPer to fool another.

[Yohannes]

So basically what I am getting so far is: someone who writes creatively about their nation on the website NationStates, but only doing so by writing "news posts", writing their fictional nation's legal system, writing their fictional nation's economic system (and by writing, I don't mean copy pasting the general boring stuff from Wikipedia to create Wikipedia style factbook or the typical boring II Wiki article detailing how your nation is a great power amongst great powers in your closed-world region posts, but ACTUALLY writing creatively from scratch), writing about their fictional nation's political intrigues, and writing about the things happening in their nation, many things based from the knowledge they have in real life, is not roleplaying? They can also interact with others through all these channels yet they are still not roleplaying?

But writing senseless (non-informative or which doesn't require much real life knowledge) ten thousand words about a king who marries his queen is the best form of roleplaying, right? So to be the best (and by the way, to be a real) roleplayer I should now start writing ten thousand words? If that is the best way to roleplay then okay. I will now try to be the best roleplayer by writing out ten thousand words about how my king marries her queen and then somewhere along the way he got backstabbed by his bodyguard and then Idk something just to make it 10,000 words. Oh, I will also add html coding to make it pretty and blocktext

Edit: Oh! Along the way I will also subtly diss people who don't write like me! Those news posters. Grrr. What a bunch of fake writers and roleplayers! Those economic, political, etc. worldbuilders who don't write long ass 10,000 words with other people! They are incompetent! They have no skill because they can't write 10,000 words post about their king and queen's marriage! Because they do rather storytell about their nation's legal or political or economic system instead of writing about their king marrying another nation's queen!

So, can I get the best roleplayer of the year award after that?

Voted by twenty people out of ~200-500 players who browse the forums regularly (and thousands more who don't even bother to roleplay on the NationStates International Incidents sub forum, let alone watch this thread).

I am sorry guys, but from the perspective of an outsider (this is the reason why I stay away from Discord or any other similar stuff so that I can observe from the outside) this is sounding a bit funny

[Allanea]

EDIT: This is a response to Monavia's post.

Yes and no.

I attempt, within reason, to be OOC honest with other players.

If someone wishes to receive information about what is happening, and what my plans or my characters' plans are, I think it is best practice to answer them truthfully (although plans may change).

On the other hand, I think it's common sense that an in-character report, whether this is a statement by a character, or a news post, or a press release by an organization, represents events from that entity's in-universe perspective. People are free to interpret these reports in any way they like.

I believe that - because to some extent RP on NS is freeform - it's entirely reasonable to keep one's cards to the chest on some things, within the confines of good faith. This is especially true when you serve as the 'host' of an RP where the other players are meant to uncover some manner of mystery, or where someone is being interrogated, or indeed in the sort of freeform war RP that occurs so often.

For example, when I roleplay interrogations, I understand of course that the characters I am interrogating may lie. But it would be unwieldy to the nature of a freeform RP if I knew the truth of the matter OOC!

[It's worth noting that metagaming can be brought up here. Naturally we all as people can do our best to avoid deliberate metagaming, but not all metagaming is even deliberate.]

[The Akasha Colony]

Someone who are more well acquainted with military and industrial technology - perhaps like The Macabees, Lamoni, The State of Monavia, or anyone who is more technically competent but also OOC wise NEUTRAL at the same time - should replace Ghant as OP of this thread. Ghant clearly knows nothing at all about military technology and making him an OP of a "NationStates Modern Tech Advice and Assistance Thread" will turn this thread into a non-neutral, non-technology, biased thread.

At the moment, this is as much a "community" thread as it is a parody. How can someone who knows nothing about economic, technical, military, etc. information being made an opening poster of a "community" thread about NationStates Modern Technology?

I'd rather not see him giving wrong advice about technical information to new players!

This isn't a technical information thread though. "Modern Tech" in this sense just means stories set around the modern era, not literally a discussion of "physical modern technology" like the rate of advancement in chip fabrication processes or software like blockchain. Likewise, it's not a place to talk about the realism of a particular fictional tank design or the performance of a particular fictional turbofan fighter engine or the disadvantages of a co-op based economy, there are already threads dedicated to this purpose elsewhere.

I have no idea what the rest of your beef is with Ghant and it's not really relevant to myself either way, but at least insofar as wanting someone more "technically inclined," I don't really see the point given that technical topics are not the focus of this thread in the first place. Perhaps links to the military and non-military focused discussion threads in the OP would be useful, but otherwise it's not really an issue.

[Yohannes]

I have no idea what the rest of your beef is with Ghant and it's not really relevant to myself either way

You are a reasonable person The Akasha Colony (I have seen your posts heaps, they are neutral and informative) so I will tell you what my beef is

My beef is not towards Ghant specifically. My beef is towards people who are too close minded and too stuck up their arse to see that NationStates is a website where everyone should be able to enjoy writing about their nation as they like. I have zero patience with anyone or any group of players who start name calling -- using many words to make them sound more civilised or more polite -- newsposters as lazy, news posters as lacking knowledge or academically (I smiled in real life when I read this, those who think I am lacking knowledge or academically lazy come at me dude don't pick up the easy targets(?) come at me instead) lazy, the usual elitist stuff

You make fun of people who write news regularly (because they can? Who are you to tell me what to write and to judge me)? Okay then I will make fun of your 10,000 words non-informative post on your king's marriage with your queen

Some people here (you know who you are) would remember back in 2007-2010 when a lot of innocent players from International Incidents sub forum regularly got bullied by certain playaers from certain group of (technically minded) RPers heaps. The past is the past (we all make mistakes) but it would be a sad thing to see the same elitist stuff be repeated again now, under the guise of a group of players who think they are the best of the bunch representing the "NationStates Modern Tech" (lol) community

And with that I depart this thread (and I will never come back here again, which I know some of you elitist people will probably love to see anyway, knowing the usual pack mentality).

I did not want to be associated with elitist people back then (who think they know more about stuff than they actually know in real life! Hah! What a joke: lack of humility coupled with elitism and arrogance) and I certainly don't want to be associated with elitist people now

Feel free to "analyse" other regional communities and whether stuff like writing news are lower quality than 10,000 posts on your king being backstabbed by her bodyguard. Feel free to tell the forum moderators to delete my posts too if you like. I have made my points loud and clear!

[Kyrusia]

Feel free to tell the forum moderators to delete my posts too if you like. I have made my points loud and clear!

Point of Modly order... Threads such as this, don't have the same privilege as roleplay IC/OOC threads or clearly roleplay-related topics (regional hubs, regional news threads, even surveys, etc.). While not a sticky, the purpose of discussion threads on the RP boards such as this, is discussion. If thread ownership powers were extended to them in the same way as the aforementioned, that'd defeat their purpose - much how it'd defeat the purpose of such being extended to community resource stickies like the "RP Help Thread."

In short: thread ownership does not apply to discussion threads of this form; that'd defeat their purpose. Posts that break rules, however, certainly can be removed by Moderator discretion.

[Ghant]

I realize that there's been some rather intense discussion in regards to the latest topic, and I'd like to wade in and provide some additional thoughts on what's been said.

For starters, I've never claimed, at any point in this thread, to be an expert, a guru, or any other sort of wizened individual when it comes to MT RP, let alone any other tech level on NS. All I am is one guy who's been RPing (by various means) for over 20 years, a decent amount of that time being on NS. As Kyrusia said, I don't "own" this thread in the same sense that I'd own an RP thread. I just started it, and I keep it going, for one reason. So that RPers can come together and discuss matters relevant to MT RP.

News posting is a matter relevant to MT RP. It's something that has been mentioned as being of concern in the past, by various individuals in various MT communities, especially when that's all that goes on, at the expense of traditional roleplays. Obviously, there's some great news posts out there, and news posting can be a better form of writing for certain subjects than traditional roleplaying. Things like policy analyses (compliments to Mac), economics and sports fit that mold.

Yohannes is an RPer that I've known for many years, and he's a writer that I both admire and respect. He's always welcome in this thread (insofar as I have anything to say about it), and so are his thoughts, his insights and his criticisms. It was never my intention to insult or offend his work (nor is that ever my intention with any of the MT topics in this thread), and if he feels that way as a result of the aforementioned topic, then I apologize.

I've heard the word "elitism" being thrown around in a few recent posts, specifically related to the latest MT Topic. That's an ugly word, and one that's certainly true not just in MT, but throughout NS RP on the whole. We all know what it is...we all see it. It's an unfortunate attitude and a counterproductive way of thinking, and in truth, is what inspired me to go through with posting this thread and keep it chugging along with at least two MT Topical discussions per month. The whole point of this thread was to serve as a gathering ground for any and all RPers who wanted to come together to share in a discussion about the nature of the tech level. It's about breaking down barriers between communities, it's about providing resources for new and old RPers and it's about a free and fair forum for discussion that otherwise wouldn't exist. It's for those reasons that I OPed the thread, and keep it going.

Yohannes is right about one thing. Me personally, I don't know a lot about economic, technical, military, etc. information, nor have I ever claimed to. I just have some experience dealing with these things in RP, and I learn more about those things everyday. I appreciate the journey and share what I've learned and experienced with other roleplayers, and if at least one person benefits from that, then as far as I'm concerned, I've accomplished what I've set out to do with this thread.

[Lamoni]

I am a long time reader of this thread, but haven't really posted anything in it, until now.

I am personally troubled by the claims of elitism in this thread. Elitism is a very ugly word, and I have seen it in action, where it has ruined RPs, and was certainly one factor that caused the downfall of the NS Draftroom. During my time here on NS, i've tried my best not to be elitist, and to reach out to many other players, regardless of if they are well known or not. Some of them have become well known after i've helped them (while others might not have), but that is not the issue here. I have been reviewing the posts in this thread, and I am not seeing any real elitism that anyone would need to worry about. So it is my hope that we can put that matter to rest.

As regards news articles, I think that they are a fine way to express things about your nation and the people in it, in a way that RPs cannot. They have their own advantages and disadvantages, and can even be done for fun. I myself have even done a news post that is basically satire, in regards to the recent April Fool's Day card collecting game. I would never put them down or insult them, and unlike Monavia, I would never call them "low-effort RP writing." News articles are an RPing tool, the individual player just has to ensure that they are not turning the tool into a crutch. If you are unwilling to put the time in to create a good RP, then you are also likely unwilling to put the time in to put up a good news article. Some of this just comes down to maturity, which can be a problem on a site where you have people as young as thirteen writing about their fictional nations, and how they interact with others. I know that at least three (maybe four) of the people discussing this problem are past high school age, have jobs, and are at a different stage of their life than those who might be new to NS are. Do you remember what you were like when you were thirteen years old? Not that i'm defending thirteen year olds, but it helps to bear their still forming viewpoints in mind. Their viewpoints are like a jigsaw puzzle that is getting completed, but are still missing quite a few major pieces.

Like L&A, I remain unconvinced that other players have to always be told a story by a character to make a fictional world believable. Just don't exclusively rely on newsposts as your main means of expressing the fictional world that you have created.

With all of that said, Yohannes got it wrong when thinking that anyone here was saying anything like "all news posts are easy." No one was attacking others for using news posts per se, but more about other players using them as a crutch instead of a tool, as I mentioned previously. Of course, there are also the arguments about how players can certainly be busy IRL (it does happen, as we all know), or maybe they are ill, or have an off day, or have other valid reasons for why they might make a news post instead of a full RP. A well done news post can have plenty of value. I merely think that there has been an over-reaction to things that might have been misread, since I do not see any malicious or otherwise harmful intent by those who have been posting in this thread as regards news posts.

In my opinion, it might be wise for someone to pick a new topic of discussion, so that everyone involved can have a cooling off period, before discussing the topic again.

[The Macabees]

Just to reiterate, I don't think anybody said that a player must tell a story through a character to build a world or to do anything. Ghant and I just said that what you get out of it is different. That's been the entire point all along, it's just been interpreted into something that it's not.

[The Macabees]

Speaking of closed-mindedness, I'm wondering if Yohaness' comments about Twitter threads on the GD server were made in irony, because the views he expressed about Twitter-like threads there are similar to the views Ghant expressed about news threads here. If those comments weren't made in irony, then I feel there's some hypocrisy.

I also find it troubling that we're getting so triggered by such an innocent comment. Threats of "elitism" shouldn't stop us from having intellectual discussions about writing; they are absolutely necessary. It's like saying I shouldn't read Stephen King's or Ray Bradbury's memoirs because they can't tell me what good writing is. I do agree that our own examples are probably not worth using as the standard for anything (my writing here is not the same quality as my RL writing quality), but I think we can objectively improve writing while still keeping in mind that the bottom line is to have fun. I think it's okay to make recommendations or to give advise; what's not okay is to continue to do so, or continue drilling your point into a specific player who's already told you they're not interested in what you have to say. But this is a communal thread and Ghant's comments, and mine, were not directed to anybody in particular.

And if any of our wording was too strong, or too absolutist, then it would be far more productive to point out specific situations where this happens, that way the player who might have offended by better choose wording next time. I think that's okay, because we all misword things. It's in our nature to do so, because we're focused on our point, not the way we say it, and it takes someone who is very skilled to be always conscious about the way they say things (and even they get it wrong many times -- see Tony Robbins' 'me too' fiasco, and he is someone who has a lot of control over his words, whatever you may think about him or his message).

[The Macabees]

Just as a final comment on this, I will share one of my favorite quotes of all time.

Uneducated people delight in argumentation and fault-finding, because it is easy enough to find fault, though hard to see the good and its inner necessity. The learner always begins by finding fault, but the educated person sees the positive in everything.

— Georg Hegel, Philosophy of Right, §268.

I learned this lesson in economics. You get a lot more out of other peoples' words if you focus on the good that you can extract from them and then discard the bad, versus extracting the bad and discarding the good.