The Fishing Dispute (CLOSED/OOC)

[New Aeyariss]

This is planning & OOC thread for this. If you weren't invited do not post here.

[New Hayesalia]

Looking at the drone matter first.

Global Hawk from the outset is designed to be hardy, it's no commercial Phantom.

At a high altitude and at a distance, with a narrow spot communication beam in either the Ku, X or UHF frequencies to an OS-78 communications sat and M-code encrypted GPS, and an array of backup measures, the idea that you could hijack the drone with a pair of jammers at that sort of distance is an outside chance, but unlikely to do much more than send a message of 'go away.'

[Inyourfaceistan]

I don't know much about drone communications and what not but I'm just going to throw out the Iranian claim to have jammed and disoriented an RQ-170. Again not that Iran is a reliable source for anything but something messed the drone up and it's safe to assume RQ-170 is at least as encrypted as RQ-4/MQ-4C if not more...

But in order to sucessfully located those corvettes it would have to be within 40-75km of each of them. I can't find the source at the moment which estimated their SAR-MTI radar has like a 75km radius, but if we look at Wikipedia it places their search area at around 2,000 square miles; which amounts to a 25 mile radius for a circular figure. 25mi is about 40km...

[New Aeyariss]

Looking at the drone matter first.

Global Hawk from the outset is designed to be hardy, it's no commercial Phantom.

At a high altitude and at a distance, with a narrow spot communication beam in either the Ku, X or UHF frequencies to an OS-78 communications sat and M-code encrypted GPS, and an array of backup measures, the idea that you could hijack the drone with a pair of jammers at that sort of distance is an outside chance, but unlikely to do much more than send a message of 'go away.'

That does not mean that high - power jamming device won't overpower the datalink. Since most of drones can recognize the situation when they are being jammed and are programmed not to follow any further orders in such case, only thing that remains is spoofing the GPS.

In addition there were reports of Chinese successfully jamming Global Hawk (although those issues are still classified by USAF), we have to note that we are dealing up here not with Iranian jamming devices, but with top quality Nihonese ECM.

I will let Riysa comment on that one, since he is expert in this area. I would like this discussion to continue only after his post if possible.

[New Hayesalia]

I would agree on the Sentinel point, but my point stands. I'll also add that it didn't just pick out the corvettes - it uses a AN/ZPY-3 MFAS, as it's the BAMS variant, which operating in it's standard mode has a rough 360 degree sweep range of 2,000 sq miles. This image should highlight what sort of range a BAMS is designed to cover.



When it uses an inverse mode, the radar has to focus and this can reduce range. This acquires an electronically-generated 'picture' of what it sees on the ground.

I believe 200 nautical miles for this drone is a fair standoff range, and considering it's altitude, range, and multiple defences against simple jamming operations. It should be added also that the USAF did not lose command of their drones (so far as anyone knows) and even if a Global Hawk were to be spoofed, it has backup INS systems that kick in to prevent the very hijacking scenario you're gunning for.

[Riysa]

Couple things here.

First, suppressing sat comms is easier than land comms, as the signal is attenuated by sheer distance and having to go through all of Earth's atmospheric layers. Its relatively easy to do for a properly-equipped military force, and while it isn't elegant, it works. Its doable with last-generation equipment, and its more than doable with the latest ECM equipment out there.

Spoofing military-grade GPS is also relatively easy to do, and equipment is available on the open market for it. Most of the reason why it isn't commonly used is because most nation's forces rely on that same GPS system, so you run into issues of fratricidal jamming.

Now, whether it'll be accepted or rejected by the system is a different issue, but even so, simple brute jamming will knock out the use of the (open-source) GPS frequencies. Without GPS, its effectively directionless. That seems to be what happened with the RQ-170; it entered a GPS null zone, got confused, orbited in order to wait for connection to be reestablished (which never did because it was jammed), and then conducted an emergency landing once it ran out of fuel. This isn't the first time its been done; multiple drones that entered Iranian airspace suffered a similar fate, but the RQ-170 was special because it was near the top of the line at the time.

As for INS, while it will help in some situations, it also has significant drift, to the point that a drone exclusively relying on it is liable to be lost regardless.

[Inyourfaceistan]

All sources I find say that radar can only do 2,000mi² in a single sweep. Correct me if I'm wrong but you may be confusing the ability to survey an area of 2,700,000mi² (which would imply a linear radius of 927mi/1,491km) in a given sortie. To actually achieve the later number means the drone has to move within range of all that area, not simply gather information from a stand-off range.

The image you posted shows the area a drone taking off from those locations could survey in one sortie, not what it can detect in a single sweep.

I hashed up this image to explain where I got the 40km search radius from:


If it could do what you claim it can, then it would mean that MQ-4C has over 2x the radar coverage that E-3 Sentry AWACS has, with a radar apparatus significantly smaller. I find that highly unbelievable.
Additionally, to have such a wide radar range would mean it can survey an area in the millions of square miles in a single sweep, and could probably search the entire globe in a matter of hours - again highly unbelievable.

[New Hayesalia]

It would appear that I have misread my sources. I am happy to retcon the drone as being within a reasonable range of the New Hayesalian taskforce.

I believe, however, that for a variety of reasons the drone would not be likely be able to be hijacked. I do agree that it wouldn't run the risk and as such I will compromise by having the operators to declare the area to be too electronically active and so they will RTB outside of range.

If there are any issues with this I'll address them now.

[New Aeyariss]

It would appear that I have misread my sources. I am happy to retcon the drone as being within a reasonable range of the New Hayesalian taskforce.

I believe, however, that for a variety of reasons the drone would not be likely be able to be hijacked. I do agree that it wouldn't run the risk and as such I will compromise by having the operators to declare the area to be too electronically active and so they will RTB outside of range.

If there are any issues with this I'll address them now.

None. I think it is a fair deal - especially because Nihonese were using jamming directed at potential Hayesalian RISTA assets earlier (see my third IC post in the thread - there is an entire structure aimed at disrupting Hayesalian RISTA, drones included). I am ready to edit my post upon your edit too, and proceed with posting.

You know you can always strike a deal with me . I would have been thankful, though, if in the future we RPed movements of the forces - citing the fact that a drone, not previously linked on any ORBAT suddenly appeared near Nihonese waters. At least I think that we should RP the drone turning from it's course somewhere above Furukuran sea and heading towards Dejima.

I believe, however, that for a variety of reasons the drone would not be likely be able to be hijacked.

EW has been used against drones successfully for years - even recently Russian EW equipment forced OSCE drones monitoring the conflict to abandon their missions. But let us proceed.