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NationStates Post-Modern Tech Community Thread

A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events. [In character]

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United World Order
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Postby United World Order » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:56 am

Railguns replacing naval guns. Discuss go go go
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Vistora
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Postby Vistora » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:03 am

United World Order wrote:Railguns replacing naval guns. Discuss go go go


Oh god, Frenco and I had this discussion before.

What must be first acknowledged and addressed is the reason why naval guns have declined so precipitously in the first place. This reason comes twofold: strike aircraft based on carriers are far more nimble and powerful when attacking surface targets than massive naval guns, while cruise missiles based on destroyers provide far and away more range, accuracy, and power than shells.

The question is: can railguns solve not only the issues found with naval guns, but those present with current warship armaments as well?
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The Macabees
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Postby The Macabees » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:13 am

Naval rounds are cheaper than missiles and aircraft, even guided rounds.

That doesn't mean you need to make a battleship-caliber gun (although, I have these, because they're cool <_<). You can go with a 155mm on a destroyer.

Edit: That doesn't mean we need to make a comparison between a naval gun and a strike aircraft. Like with everything combat-related, it's always best to go with combined arms. You never know what part of your strategy/tactics will be nullified.
Last edited by The Macabees on Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Macabees
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Postby The Macabees » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:29 am

Vistora, out of curiosity, how do you combine the cyberpunk theme with military tech? Do you have a unique brand of tech (a unique twist to it)? I don't have much experience with cyberpunk.

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Unified Free Lands
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Postby Unified Free Lands » Fri Apr 29, 2016 11:30 am

Interesting thread, I'm going to tag this for later.
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Vistora
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Postby Vistora » Fri Apr 29, 2016 12:43 pm

The Macabees wrote:Vistora, out of curiosity, how do you combine the cyberpunk theme with military tech? Do you have a unique brand of tech (a unique twist to it)? I don't have much experience with cyberpunk.


My own nation doesn't follow much of a cut-and-dry cyberpunk theme. It's certainly less dystopian, and fits far more so into the category of Post-Cyberpunk. Above all else, my nation's military and civilian technology follows strict rules of scientific realism and looser guidelines of economic feasibility (my own academic and professional experience in the sciences certainly helps).

I am, however, still very familiar with the classical Cyberpunk setting, and can probably give a more adequate answer to a slightly different question.
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Haishan
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Postby Haishan » Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:16 pm

United World Order wrote:Railguns replacing naval guns. Discuss go go go


The gods of RApid-FIring-RAilgun (RAFIRA) demands tribute. It fires at 75 Hz which is, seventy-five rounds per second or 4500 rounds per minute !! Actual research project. On NS side, railgun might be useful for additional CIWS measure, a Mach 5 round to the horizon in three or so seconds will destroy anything it will come in contact with, assuming the launched projectile have enough mass or launched in sufficient numbers.

Naval bombardment? Far from it due to prevalence of NS missile spam. People haven't realized it yet that parking a ship within ~300 km from enemy coast put the ship in varied kind of dangers from supersonic (and probably hypersonic AhSM in PMT) to fast attack craft. IRL already have Bastion-P that can engage a ship some ~300 km from the shore with supersonic Onyxes and PMT coastal defenses will get harder to crack.
Last edited by Haishan on Fri Apr 29, 2016 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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UniversalCommons
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Postby UniversalCommons » Sat Apr 30, 2016 8:54 pm

I am quite fond of the ridiculous stealth blimp.

Image

You can even pretend to have an airship to orbit stealth blimp, something doubly ridiculous.

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Post War America
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Postby Post War America » Sun May 01, 2016 4:54 am

UniversalCommons wrote:I am quite fond of the ridiculous stealth blimp.

(Image)

You can even pretend to have an airship to orbit stealth blimp, something doubly ridiculous.


I can haz stealth blimp?
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Haishan
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Postby Haishan » Sun May 01, 2016 5:24 am

Post War America wrote:I can haz stealth blimp?


Perhaps if you don't mind reduced payload as the blimp goes higher. Protip,

An operational HAA would be around 150m (500ft) long with a 140,000- 170,000 m3 (5-6 million ft3) envelope, carrying a 900kg (2,000lb) sensor payload and with the energy accumulation and storage capacity for at least six months endurance.- Flight Global
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Helio: currently working on a replacement though, it will be like 3x more powerful
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Post War America
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Postby Post War America » Sun May 01, 2016 11:28 am

Haishan wrote:
Post War America wrote:I can haz stealth blimp?


Perhaps if you don't mind reduced payload as the blimp goes higher. Protip,

An operational HAA would be around 150m (500ft) long with a 140,000- 170,000 m3 (5-6 million ft3) envelope, carrying a 900kg (2,000lb) sensor payload and with the energy accumulation and storage capacity for at least six months endurance.- Flight Global


Tbf, I was already looking into Airships for use as long distance cargo transports (those that would leave from the Commonwealth and go to the bases of distant allies where they would offload onto shorter haul aircraft which would do the transport to, from, and within insecure theaters). Though this article has provided me with several ideas for other airship utilities. Though, as I had suspected there are some issues to consider when designing the buggers.
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UniversalCommons
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Postby UniversalCommons » Sun May 01, 2016 3:03 pm

There are a few interesting things you might do. There is the Aeroscraft which is a giant promise if you want something for mass transport. It is a hybrid aircraft. It is as big as a football field. There are other airships that are similar. http://fortune.com/2016/03/30/lockheed- ... -airships/

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The Macabees
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Postby The Macabees » Sun May 01, 2016 10:41 pm

Not sure if I've asked this question already, but I'll be asking it often so get used to it: what kind of PMT RPs are people involved in now? Edit: Or have been involved in.
Last edited by The Macabees on Sun May 01, 2016 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vistora
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Postby Vistora » Sun May 01, 2016 10:47 pm

The Macabees wrote:Not sure if I've asked this question already, but I'll be asking it often so get used to it: what kind of PMT RPs are people involved in now? Edit: Or have been involved in.


Well, the REC's current project is setting up an extrasolar colonial RP, called Novaluna. Y'all are free to jump in and start contributing if interested.
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Morrdh
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Postby Morrdh » Mon May 02, 2016 4:47 am

Looping back to the armoured trains topic, link with a ton of useful info; https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/ ... ed_trains/

Surprised nobody mentioned convertible armoured rail cars like the Soviet BTR-40ZhD, vehicles that could ride either rails or roads. Road-rail vehicles are widely used today, so probably wouldn't take much to do an armoured version.
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Haishan
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Postby Haishan » Mon May 02, 2016 6:56 am

In my opinion, rail cars seems most useful to haul and launch certain missiles rather than being in the front lines. In other words, hide a tree in the forest, not be the tree in a wasteland. Armoured train in PMT settings might have niche uses as been postulated by other users but I tend to agree to arguments made against the concept, especially when you're looking at dealing with Middle Eastern-level insurgents. They will find out ways to blow either the track or part of the train or both.Then again I envision PMT with very capable 'insurgents' as per New Aeyeriss pointed out where the State no longer have monopoly of application of calculated force. IRL 'freedom fighters' are already smart, imagine the solutions they can come up with PMT stuff, ordinary household stuff.

As per UniversalCommons, if you're looking at transporting huge amount of cargo then hybrid airship is the way to go. Vanilla blimps cannot carry that much, Post War America.
Last edited by Haishan on Mon May 02, 2016 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Forsworn Knights
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Postby The Forsworn Knights » Mon May 02, 2016 7:00 am

Tagging this thread.
I personally see early-PMT as being what the United States Military currently has IRL. And if you want people to accept you, minus the nukes/OP stuff.
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Postby The Macabees » Mon May 02, 2016 8:22 am

Re: armored trains. The truth of it is that it's mental gymnastics to decide whether armored trains are worthwhile outside of the context of the RP/war. Different insurgencies will have different degrees of capabilities, different objectives, et cetera. How you protect your supply routes, whether those are by rail, by truck, or however, will depend on the constraints of the RP. Armored trains may be absolutely worthless in one situation, and they may save you hundreds of billions of dollars in another. You may find that you have unarmored trains transporting heavy equipment to a front thousands of kilometers deep into enemy territory, and armoring your trains may be the sensible next step.

There will always be ways to counter. That's true with everything, so it doesn't make much sense to discard an idea because you can think of a way to beat it. Otherwise, there would never be any RPs, because every idea would have a counter. That's why there should be a lot more emphasis on combined arms. And we also have to remember that these isolated techs don't exist in a vacuum, so it doesn't make sense to speak as if they did ("but A can counter B, and C can counter B"). If we do that, we end up with something akin to the regression theorem, where you find out military tech can't exist at all because there's always something that can defeat that one piece of technology. But, that's not how wars work. Tech doesn't exist in a vacuum. And it's not stationary either. You will find that your tech will evolve the most when you're actually in a war RP, because that's when you have to adjust to your enemy's capabilities.

Edit: I'll also add a paraphrased quote from, I believe, Hegel: It's easy to find what's wrong with an idea, the real challenge is in finding what's right in it.
Last edited by The Macabees on Mon May 02, 2016 8:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby New Aeyariss » Mon May 02, 2016 8:31 am

The Macabees wrote:Re: armored trains. The truth of it is that it's mental gymnastics to decide whether armored trains are worthwhile outside of the context of the RP/war. Different insurgencies will have different degrees of capabilities, different objectives, et cetera. How you protect your supply routes, whether those are by rail, by truck, or however, will depend on the constraints of the RP. Armored trains may be absolutely worthless in one situation, and they may save you hundreds of billions of dollars in another. You may find that you have unarmored trains transporting heavy equipment to a front thousands of kilometers deep into enemy territory, and armoring your trains may be the sensible next step.

There will always be ways to counter. That's true with everything, so it doesn't make much sense to discard an idea because you can think of a way to beat it. Otherwise, there would never be any RPs, because every idea would have a counter. That's why there should be a lot more emphasis on combined arms. And we also have to remember that these isolated techs don't exist in a vacuum, so it doesn't make sense to speak as if they did ("but A can counter B, and C can counter B"). If we do that, we end up with something akin to the regression theorem, where you find out military tech can't exist at all because there's always something that can defeat that one piece of technology. But, that's not how wars work. Tech doesn't exist in a vacuum. And it's not stationary either. You will find that your tech will evolve the most when you're actually in a war RP, because that's when you have to adjust to your enemy's capabilities.


TBH I do know that soviet logistics system relied a lot on rail transportation - and in such case, it would make sense for such trains to exist, especially nowdays when Chinese are building a railway from Łódź to Beijing. It would make sense to give some trains defenses against that.

However, my point was rather that by merely constraining ourselves to one route, we are giving the guerillas initiative for a strike. British experiences from Malaysia proven that it is best to hit the guerillas in their natural environment - thus, hunting them in jungles, mountains or urban areas they operate from is the best choice of conducting operations. While such trains would make sense in certain cases (such as drive with supply through hard terrain) - simply to say that offense always brought better results than defense in COIN situations.
Last edited by New Aeyariss on Mon May 02, 2016 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Macabees
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Postby The Macabees » Mon May 02, 2016 8:51 am

I agree with you New Aeyariss. I just don't think anyone was making the argument that we should constrain ourselves to one route, as you put it.

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Postby New Aeyariss » Mon May 02, 2016 8:56 am

The Macabees wrote:I agree with you New Aeyariss. I just don't think anyone was making the argument that we should constrain ourselves to one route, as you put it.


This isn't about one route; it is about the fact that movement of a train is easy to predict, which gives the partisans plenty of advantages.
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The Macabees
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Postby The Macabees » Mon May 02, 2016 8:58 am

New Aeyariss wrote:This isn't about one route; it is about the fact that movement of a train is easy to predict, which gives the partisans plenty of advantages.


Right, but like you said earlier, sometimes you just can't avoid that, because train is the only feasible way to move the equipment you need in the time you need it to move.

Edit: But don't get me wrong, you are absolutely right.
Last edited by The Macabees on Mon May 02, 2016 9:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Macabees
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Postby The Macabees » Mon May 02, 2016 9:35 am

I have an announcement: New Aeyariss is awesome enough to agree to write a PMT guide on insurgencies and COIN. Not only has this been a focus of study for him, but he also practices this through his paramilitary group in Poland. When I say he knows what he's talking about, he knows what he's talking about. So I'm itching to read his guide. It should be out later this week or early next one.
Last edited by The Macabees on Mon May 02, 2016 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Vistora
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Postby Vistora » Mon May 02, 2016 9:47 am

The Macabees wrote:I have an announcement: New Aeyariss is awesome enough to agree to write a PMT guide on insurgencies and COIN. Not only has this been a focus of study for him, but he also practices this through his paramilitary group in Poland. When I say he knows what he's talking about, he knows what he's talking about. So I'm itching to read his guide. It should be out later this week or early next one.


By "PMT", do we mean more of an MT+10-20?
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Post War America
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Postby Post War America » Mon May 02, 2016 9:48 am

Speaking of Guides... I have sorta been beginning to initial process of writing a guide of (somewhat) realistically portraying Artificial Intelligence in Post Modern Settings, and I was looking for some others to assist in the researching process... if anybody'd be interested, pop me a TG.
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Gravlen wrote:The famous Bowling Green Massacre is yesterday's news. Today it's all about the Cricket Blue Carnage. Tomorrow it'll be about the Curling Yellow Annihilation.

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