OOC: Things to do in Caracasus before you die (MT/PMT/Dip)

[Caracasus]

Where do you think fanatics come from? I think you're seeing a division between civilian and fanatic where there is none. Everyone has certain things, certain triggers that would lead them to commit great and sometimes terrible things, usually with the accompanying label of fanatic. For many, a brutal invasion followed by a nation turning up and ripping apart their culture, law and way of living may well produce such actions.

I also think that yes, should they be shot at the resolve of the group would most likely diminish a little - no matter. It'd still be a slaughter.

Still, people won't just die over who is governing them. They just don't do that. I think this is a good way of preventing the protest to be godmoded away by teleport commandos or empty promises. I think hey will resist any attempt to subdue them but their braking-point is approximately 50. If you use tanks to capture the city you will be back in control in no time, if you don't the city will remain free. I don't think that 50 is a fixed number. If they start dying they are likely to rethink that but I guess otherwise they would just keep on defending their homes.

Having re-read that - then yes - the 50 number appears to be just that - a point at which they will break and flee. Given that you've got different road and rail entry points, so maybe several different barricades 50 seems reasonable.

[Tekeristan]

Still, people won't just die over who is governing them. They just don't do that. I think this is a good way of preventing the protest to be godmoded away by teleport commandos or empty promises. I think hey will resist any attempt to subdue them but their braking-point is approximately 50. If you use tanks to capture the city you will be back in control in no time, if you don't the city will remain free. I don't think that 50 is a fixed number. If they start dying they are likely to rethink that but I guess otherwise they would just keep on defending their homes.

Having re-read that - then yes - the 50 number appears to be just that - a point at which they will break and flee. Given that you've got different road and rail entry points, so maybe several different barricades 50 seems reasonable.

Not taking away the use of empty promises that is,

I guess it depends what goes down. Few bullets into the air and a good few tear gas canisters will dislodge those without any gas protection pretty quick. Overall, it depends on the policy of Ganos in dealing with these revolts. In no way am I saying people don't die for what they believe in.

[Significance]

Why is Caracus still behind the fact that the Karthos Soviet, who are behind the blockade, are average Menthian citezens.

I'm all for all these groups that have risen up and are causing trouble, but anyone in their group should not be anything like the average Menthian.

The average Menthian, I think, would just be trying to keep their head down, trying to avoid conflict at all costs. Maybe they wouldn't be happy at the invasion, but neither would they join any radical groups, for fear of another radical group coming after them.

I hope I've made my point clear, it would in my opinion be better for the RP after all. Especially because Significance supports the average Menthian, not any radical group.

[Caracasus]

Why is Caracus still behind the fact that the Karthos Soviet, who are behind the blockade, are average Menthian citezens.

I'm all for all these groups that have risen up and are causing trouble, but anyone in their group should not be anything like the average Menthian.

The average Menthian, I think, would just be trying to keep their head down, trying to avoid conflict at all costs. Maybe they wouldn't be happy at the invasion, but neither would they join any radical groups, for fear of another radical group coming after them.

I hope I've made my point clear, it would in my opinion be better for the RP after all. Especially because Significance supports the average Menthian, not any radical group.

Caracasus officially hasn't supported the Soviet. Most Caracasusians are communists to one degree or another, and all have perfect autonomy when it comes to engaging in peaceful acts of protest - whether that be in Caracasus or oversees. Caracasusians are also not overly fond of imperialism, no matter what face it wears. For those members of the communes from Caracasus who are heading to Karthos, for them it is a duty to cause trouble. You rise up against oppressors.

You are quite right, most average Menthians wouldn't - just as most Parisians might not have joined the Communards on a good day. However there is enough bad feeling and uncertainty that people are seeking other options. There is chaos in Menthi. They were invaded by soldiers that stole everything but who occupied the country for such a short time nothing was put in place, and opposition was never firmly dealt with. Then, another group turns up who has a radically different culture. It's chaos at the moment, people are clinging to things that have strentgh.

Don't forget as well that the nearest large country is Caracasus - a socialist state. With that in mind, a Soviet isn't that radical a group. For many Menthians, they may well feel that if Menthi was more in line with Caracasus, they might be more secure.

[Significance]

Caracasus officially hasn't supported the Soviet. Most Caracasusians are communists to one degree or another, and all have perfect autonomy when it comes to engaging in peaceful acts of protest - whether that be in Caracasus or oversees. Caracasusians are also not overly fond of imperialism, no matter what face it wears. For those members of the communes from Caracasus who are heading to Karthos, for them it is a duty to cause trouble. You rise up against oppressors.

You are quite right, most average Menthians wouldn't - just as most Parisians didn't join the Communards. However there is enough bad feeling and uncertainty that people are seeking other options.

Don't forget as well that the nearest large country is Caracasus - a socialist state. With that in mind, a Soviet isn't that radical a group. For many Menthians, they may well feel that if Menthi was more in line with Caracasus, they might be more secure.

Firstly, I don't mind if certain of your people support a certain group.

What my point was is that you seem to believe there would be a lot of people supporting Karthos Soviet at the very least and at most nearly all the population. This is so wrong it's not even funny.

Two things, one, the Soviet union was a 'socialist state' (yes pushing it slightly but it makes the point) and most Russians just, well, went along with it. Not because eyes loved the communist ideals but because really, they had no choice. They got on with their lives to stay alive, they didn't want to fight. I don't care what's happened in Menthi, the majority of people will just keep their heads down.

Two, Menthi went bankrupt. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't they pretty socialist before anyway. If that government failed miserable when it came to money, when should the average Menthian trust socialism ever again.

I just want it to be seen that their are a large majority of people your missing out on in regards to Menthi. One I personally am on the side of.

[Flauc]

I agree with Significance's statement.

Plus, Ganos never stripped Menthi of their culture, did they, so why are you saying they did in your posts?


Well, Flauc is going to support the the General guy because we think he's anti-commie (I think), and that fits up.

Flauc does NOT like communists, so we are going to be secretly supporthing the Resistance Movement of General Nienta, I think.

Ganos Lao, fellow Nihonjin!

[Significance]

I agree with Significance's statement.

Plus, Ganos never stripped Menthi of their culture, did they, so why are you saying they did in your posts?


Well, Flauc is going to support the the General guy because we think he's anti-commie (I think), and that fits up.

Flauc does NOT like communists, so we are going to be secretly supporthing the Resistance Movement of General Nienta, I think.

Ganos Lao, fellow Nihonjin!

You mean the bull? I hadn't heard of Nienta so I'm assuming there the bull in a different guise.

[Buja]

(Tekeri here, just in Communist Buja atm)

Menthi's government was pretty collapsed for a while before this war, only maintained in the cities and through aid alone. So I doubt they were much in the name of 'socialists'.

Also a heads up, next bit of while I'm going to be a little busy with Buja. Its a little RP I have planed mostly aimed at my region (Invite otherwise, though.) about a communist regime taking power on an island (Current day Dom. Republic).

[Significance]

(Tekeri here, just in Communist Buja atm)

Menthi's government was pretty collapsed for a while before this war, only maintained in the cities and through aid alone. So I doubt they were much in the name of 'socialists'.

Even a communist is backing me up. I think that says it all.

[Buja]

(Tekeri here, just in Communist Buja atm)

Menthi's government was pretty collapsed for a while before this war, only maintained in the cities and through aid alone. So I doubt they were much in the name of 'socialists'.

Even a communist is backing me up. I think that says it all.

Nah, more along the lines of saying that Socialism would be very appealing to a robbed and poor population like Menthi, something either side can take advantage of at the moment.

[Caracasus]

Caracasus officially hasn't supported the Soviet. Most Caracasusians are communists to one degree or another, and all have perfect autonomy when it comes to engaging in peaceful acts of protest - whether that be in Caracasus or oversees. Caracasusians are also not overly fond of imperialism, no matter what face it wears. For those members of the communes from Caracasus who are heading to Karthos, for them it is a duty to cause trouble. You rise up against oppressors.

You are quite right, most average Menthians wouldn't - just as most Parisians didn't join the Communards. However there is enough bad feeling and uncertainty that people are seeking other options.

Don't forget as well that the nearest large country is Caracasus - a socialist state. With that in mind, a Soviet isn't that radical a group. For many Menthians, they may well feel that if Menthi was more in line with Caracasus, they might be more secure.

Firstly, I don't mind if certain of your people support a certain group.

What my point was is that you seem to believe there would be a lot of people supporting Karthos Soviet at the very least and at most nearly all the population. This is so wrong it's not even funny.

Two things, one, the Soviet union was a 'socialist state' (yes pushing it slightly but it makes the point) and most Russians just, well, went along with it. Not because eyes loved the communist ideals but because really, they had no choice. They got on with their lives to stay alive, they didn't want to fight. I don't care what's happened in Menthi, the majority of people will just keep their heads down.

Two, Menthi went bankrupt. Correct me if I'm wrong but weren't they pretty socialist before anyway. If that government failed miserable when it came to money, when should the average Menthian trust socialism ever again.

I just want it to be seen that their are a large majority of people your missing out on in regards to Menthi. One I personally am on the side of.

I honestly don't know at present how many people support the Karthos Soviet - all I know is that the Soviet has formed and is at present the only body that has anything approaching control of Karthos - you're confusing what I think with what the Caracasusians who went to support them think.

Please don't make the mistake of confusing the USSR with USSC - two very different states. In Menthi people can't get on with their lives - the country has been broken irreparably. I agree, in normal times, most people broadly go along with the status quo and keep their heads down - Menthi is now at the point where you can't keep your head down - there are no neutral people here - you can't be - you're a Soviet, a Catholic or a Nationalist - it's not so bad at the moment, but soon you will have to pick one of those if you're a Menthian, or one of the three groups will tear you to pieces - possibly literally.

They weren't overly socialist. Their economy was mixed - some nationalised industries, but mostly smallholdings and farms - as evidence with the confusion following the destruction of the hall of records. Menthi was a poor, broadly inoffensive conservative republic. The reason they went bankrupt was largely due to the fact their government was seriously in debt to Parsoh and repaying debts to various international banks, coupled with a severe shortage of agricultural products that it used to pay off these debts to Parsoh.

This gives a tonne of ammunition to the Nationalists and the Soviet:

If they'd been socialist like Malsti, they might have gotten more support from Caracasus (or at least that's what the Soviet is saying).
Menthi should have been a strong economic powerhouse, only its productivity was sapped through unscrupulous, corrupt foreigners (or at least that's what the nationalists are saying)

It is, as well, important to note that on the Peninsula, there is a strong, economically powerful, communist state right next door. There is also a strong religious element within the peninsula, and strong nationalistic tendancies. These positions are not as extreme or radical as they would be in another time or place.

For clarity - I did not write the latest Menthi post.

[Significance]

Even a communist is backing me up. I think that says it all.

Nah, more along the lines of saying that Socialism would be very appealing to a robbed and poor population like Menthi, something either side can take advantage of at the moment.

"So I doubt they were much in the name of the 'socialists'"

So that isn't to do with the general population? We're you saying the government wasn't socialist?

I see your point if the government wasn't socialist, but I got the idea they were because one, a lot of other countries are, and the others are dictators anyway and it sounded to me the country wasn't run by dictators so they were most likely socialist and two, I know capitalists can become bankrupt but it's harder to do so than for socialists because socialist falls are tied to the government, and all this struggle revolves around Menthi's government, not business. And three, Ganos has allowed capitalism to happen, so if they didn't have it before they must have been socialist.

I think my point of the country backing away from socialism stands.

[Buja]

For clarity - I did not write the latest Menthi post.

Should we have authors list their names in their posts if it is a shared account like Menthi?

Nah, more along the lines of saying that Socialism would be very appealing to a robbed and poor population like Menthi, something either side can take advantage of at the moment.

I think my point of the country backing away from socialism stands.

I think not. Poor people are attracted by a sense of community and shared wealth, even more if they sorta need to ban together. Either way, it has formed.

[Flauc]

Wants to remove oppressive Ganos Lao -> supports oppressive Karthos Socialist which want a dictatorship

France v2.0

[Significance]

I honestly don't know at present how many people support the Karthos Soviet - all I know is that the Soviet has formed and is at present the only body that has anything approaching control of Karthos - you're confusing what I think with what the Caracasusians who went to support them think.

Please don't make the mistake of confusing the USSR with USSC - two very different states. In Menthi people can't get on with their lives - the country has been broken irreparably. I agree, in normal times, most people broadly go along with the status quo and keep their heads down - Menthi is now at the point where you can't keep your head down - there are no neutral people here - you can't be - you're a Soviet, a Catholic or a Nationalist - it's not so bad at the moment, but soon you will have to pick one of those if you're a Menthian, or one of the three groups will tear you to pieces - possibly literally.

They weren't overly socialist. Their economy was mixed - some nationalised industries, but mostly smallholdings and farms - as evidence with the confusion following the destruction of the hall of records. Menthi was a poor, broadly inoffensive conservative republic. The reason they went bankrupt was largely due to the fact their government was seriously in debt to Parsoh and repaying debts to various international banks, coupled with a severe shortage of agricultural products that it used to pay off these debts to Parsoh. If they'd been socialist like Malsti, they might have gotten more support from Caracasus (or at least that's what the Soviet is saying).

It is, as well, important to note that on the Peninsula, there is a strong, economically powerful, communist state right next door. There is also a strong religious element within the peninsula, and strong nationalistic tendancies. These positions are not as extreme or radical as they would be in another time or place.

For clarity - I did not write the latest Menthi post.

Well, that explains a bit actually, the latest posts was of a different quality.

You used sooner or later. It's not later yet. I just want it to be shown that the majority isn't truly behind the current groups, that they are trying to get by. Maybe they fail yes but I still want it to be seen there is a clear line between the average person and these three groups. Because I think that you've missed a point with most Menthians which brings me onto.

The Bull. We haven't heard much from him other than resist. I see him almost like the french resistance. He not into the political game nor does he seem to want to be. I think he just wants Menthi to be free. I also see he could have quite the following as time goes on as people look for safety, and his resistance is an almost neutral place for them to go. And when it comes to politics he does actually make a point. The Menthians just want to govern themselves. He is the perfect person to show how democracy can start to show in Menthi, and have people like me and flauc back that cause.

I hope this can be done, I don't like the three parties as they stand now.

[Caracasus]

Nah, more along the lines of saying that Socialism would be very appealing to a robbed and poor population like Menthi, something either side can take advantage of at the moment.

"So I doubt they were much in the name of the 'socialists'"

So that isn't to do with the general population? We're you saying the government wasn't socialist?

I see your point if the government wasn't socialist, but I got the idea they were because one, a lot of other countries are, and the others are dictators anyway and it sounded to me the country wasn't run by dictators so they were most likely socialist and two, I know capitalists can become bankrupt but it's harder to do so than for socialists because socialist falls are tied to the government, and all this struggle revolves around Menthi's government, not business. And three, Ganos has allowed capitalism to happen, so if they didn't have it before they must have been socialist.

I think my point of the country backing away from socialism stands.

I think what we've got here is a bit of confusion surrounding some of the economic models present. It is ridiculously easy for capitalist countries to effectively become bankrupt - it happens all the time. Then they're bailed out by some international regulatory authority, usually with various provisos attached to repayment of debts.

Socialism =/= state owned industry and strong government control. That only exists, sometimes, as a theoretical stepping stone towards socialism.

The government and the economy are linked, whatever economic model you pursue.

Ganos hasn't allowed capitalism to happen, capitalism occured in Menthi before, what Ganos has done is to flood the country with aid and materials when there is no remaining structures to effectively distribute them - collective ownership or private. That's what's causing the massive headache and uncertainty. If you'll note some of the protestors are protesting that it's impossible to sell goods when Ganos is giving them away.

All three groups, the religious group, the nationalist group and the soviet group are making headway and getting more and more members because all three provide a "solution". They provide some sense of stability to a people who have completely lost their very way of life. The capital city of Jarkos is very much in the hands of the religious order - it's got many established churches and a history of ties to the church. The countryside and some of the suburbs in some of the towns have strong nationalist support - way out in the sticks the Macheratos are the only ones providing anything like law and order. The city of Karthos is broadly industrialized, with trade unions and everything that comes with it - it is here that the Soviet has its main power base.

You haven't got one group or the other really getting an advantage at the moment.

And yes, the Bull has not (yet) supported any faction.

[Caracasus]

Wants to remove oppressive Ganos Lao -> supports oppressive Karthos Socialist which want a dictatorship

France v2.0

Caracasus hasn't supported any of the groups yet - only demanded that Ganos Lao leaves.

[Flauc]

Wants to remove oppressive Ganos Lao -> supports oppressive Karthos Socialist which want a dictatorship

France v2.0

Caracasus hasn't supported any of the groups yet - only demanded that Ganos Lao leaves.

And what about your convoys?

[Carosi]

On a different topic all of this is now considered Carosi mainland for the sake of RPing in it. New Map.

[Caracasus]

Caracasus hasn't supported any of the groups yet - only demanded that Ganos Lao leaves.

And what about your convoys?

Those are Caracasusian citizens expressing their freedom to peacefully protest, a freedom that knows no international boundries.

If they were tooling up with military equipment, then Caracasus might intervene -as it is, they're protestors offering solidarity to a cause they strongly believe in. Caracasus couldn't stop them, even if it wanted to. It'd be illegal.

And of course, as this is OOC - Caracasus is fully aware that there may be another revolution in Menthi and wants to support the side that most aligns with what they think.

For there to be a ban on Caracasusians travelling to Menthi to protest against the occupation of the country by another nation, there would have to be a referendum for a new law to be passed. How likely would that be?

[Significance]

I think what we've got here is a bit of confusion surrounding some of the economic models present. It is ridiculously easy for capitalist countries to effectively become bankrupt - it happens all the time. Then they're bailed out by some international regulatory authority, usually with various provisos attached to repayment of debts.

Socialism =/= state owned industry and strong government control. That only exists, sometimes, as a theoretical stepping stone towards socialism.

The government and the economy are linked, whatever economic model you pursue.

Ganos hasn't allowed capitalism to happen, capitalism occured in Menthi before, what Ganos has done is to flood the country with aid and materials when there is no remaining structures to effectively distribute them - collective ownership or private. That's what's causing the massive headache and uncertainty. If you'll note some of the protestors are protesting that it's impossible to sell goods when Ganos is giving them away.

All three groups, the religious group, the nationalist group and the soviet group are making headway and getting more and more members because all three provide a "solution". They provide some sense of stability to a people who have completely lost their very way of life. The capital city of Jarkos is very much in the hands of the religious order - it's got many established churches and a history of ties to the church. The countryside and some of the suburbs in some of the towns have strong nationalist support - way out in the sticks the Macheratos are the only ones providing anything like law and order. The city of Karthos is broadly industrialized, with trade unions and everything that comes with it - it is here that the Soviet has its main power base.

You haven't got one group or the other really getting an advantage at the moment.

And yes, the Bull has not (yet) supported any faction.

Ok, maybe I misinterpreted some stuff, but one point remains. What will people do when factions fight. As far as I can tell the three won't compromise, and so war is likely. Will the majority still wish to be on one side when the two other sides could slaughter them. Unlikely, most will hide.

And on that note, what about Peni, don't they support a certain group. If not, May I suggest the Bull resides there as his safe haven. It would allow for his side to develop and provide evidence of another way, hopefully a more democratic one. I think Menthians ultimately want choice after all.

[Buja]

Should we have authors list their names in their posts if it is a shared account like Menthi?

[Significance]

On a different topic all of this is now considered Carosi mainland for the sake of RPing in it. New Map.

I think the political map should be redrawn yes. Carosi shouldn't be shown to be occupying anymore, he's been unopposed so long I think we safely say it's his. Parsoh doesn't occupy Menthi as well, Ganos does. Ganos can pick a new colour of the occupation from what Menthian lands remain.

[Caracasus]

I think what we've got here is a bit of confusion surrounding some of the economic models present. It is ridiculously easy for capitalist countries to effectively become bankrupt - it happens all the time. Then they're bailed out by some international regulatory authority, usually with various provisos attached to repayment of debts.

Socialism =/= state owned industry and strong government control. That only exists, sometimes, as a theoretical stepping stone towards socialism.

The government and the economy are linked, whatever economic model you pursue.

Ganos hasn't allowed capitalism to happen, capitalism occured in Menthi before, what Ganos has done is to flood the country with aid and materials when there is no remaining structures to effectively distribute them - collective ownership or private. That's what's causing the massive headache and uncertainty. If you'll note some of the protestors are protesting that it's impossible to sell goods when Ganos is giving them away.

All three groups, the religious group, the nationalist group and the soviet group are making headway and getting more and more members because all three provide a "solution". They provide some sense of stability to a people who have completely lost their very way of life. The capital city of Jarkos is very much in the hands of the religious order - it's got many established churches and a history of ties to the church. The countryside and some of the suburbs in some of the towns have strong nationalist support - way out in the sticks the Macheratos are the only ones providing anything like law and order. The city of Karthos is broadly industrialized, with trade unions and everything that comes with it - it is here that the Soviet has its main power base.

You haven't got one group or the other really getting an advantage at the moment.

And yes, the Bull has not (yet) supported any faction.

Ok, maybe I misinterpreted some stuff, but one point remains. What will people do when factions fight. As far as I can tell the three won't compromise, and so war is likely. Will the majority still wish to be on one side when the two other sides could slaughter them. Unlikely, most will hide.

And on that note, what about Peni, don't they support a certain group. If not, May I suggest the Bull resides there as his safe haven. It would allow for his side to develop and provide evidence of another way, hopefully a more democratic one. I think Menthians ultimately want choice after all.

That's not a bad idea Significance - the Bull could well be in Peni - it'd make perfect sense.

I tend to think the Menthians want to know that they'll have enough food to survive, have some form of shelter and probably not have their kids drafted into a terrifying civil war.

[Significance]

That's not a bad idea Significance - the Bull could well be in Peni - it'd make perfect sense.

I tend to think the Menthians want to know that they'll have enough food to survive, have some form of shelter and probably not have their kids drafted into a terrifying civil war.

Glad you agree on the bull. And the point of the Menthians better fits my understanding of them.

I also want to point out, my 'aid' is still at the shallow ports of Menthi. Preferably I'd like to see the bull take them, but it may be fun for another faction to grab them.