NationStates Trainers - An OOC Organization - Attn: ALL

[Questers]

2. Numbers and details might not be your friend.

This is 100% contextual. Use them when appropriate.

Appropriate: "The AS-4 Kitchen's 1000kg shaped charged warhead was more than sufficient to cripple, or perhaps even to sink, a small escort ship with one direct hit, and her flight path which brought her to a maximum height of 27,000m and a lowest height of 500m made the weapon particularly deadly in the hands of long-range naval aviation bombers, to which the only defense was strong fighter cover and a vigilant defensive reconaissance doctrine."

[Fatatatutti]

Appropriate: "The AS-4 Kitchen's 1000kg shaped charged warhead was more than sufficient to cripple, or perhaps even to sink, a small escort ship with one direct hit, and her flight path which brought her to a maximum height of 27,000m and a lowest height of 500m made the weapon particularly deadly in the hands of long-range naval aviation bombers, to which the only defense was strong fighter cover and a vigilant defensive reconaissance doctrine."

Appropriate, maybe, but mind-numbingly dull. I'd rather see that information spread out over several paragraphs, some of it worked into a conversation maybe. Any information is more interesting if it's presented in a variety of ways instead of just rattled off like a grocery list.

Putting more detail in doesn't have to mean putting only detail in.

[Palpatinist Coruscant]

Putting more detail in doesn't have to mean putting only detail in.

In addition, if details for whatever weapon have been written elsewhere online and you can't incorporate those details naturally (ie. with dialogue), a hotlink just might be in store so that the RP doesn't get bogged down in details.

[Tanaara]

And a character's thoughts are a lovely way of getting the truth out when his ( or hers) are moving. This is a subtle way of letting the players know truths that their characters do not. And the more information - passed along in readable style - the other players have, the better they can write. The better every one writes the more fun it is to read.

One thing every one needs to remember is that this is all cooperative, all a joint effort and we're all supposed to have fun.

[TRIAD Enterprises]

2. Numbers and details might not be your friend.

This is 100% contextual. Use them when appropriate.

Appropriate: "The AS-4 Kitchen's 1000kg shaped charged warhead was more than sufficient to cripple, or perhaps even to sink, a small escort ship with one direct hit, and her flight path which brought her to a maximum height of 27,000m and a lowest height of 500m made the weapon particularly deadly in the hands of long-range naval aviation bombers, to which the only defense was strong fighter cover and a vigilant defensive reconaissance doctrine."

You see, this is a good example of good writing, in my personal opinion. If you were to include the above in a post, I would be grateful for the information. If you included the above data (even worded differently) in every post that mentioned the AS-4, then I'd be highly annoyed. The actual numbers don't even need to be included. Mention that the warhead is sufficient ot cripple/sink a ship in one hit. Mention that she has a very wide flight height. Mention the only effective way to defend is fighter cover and recon. One doesn't even need the numbers.

In addition, if details for whatever weapon have been written elsewhere online and you can't incorporate those details naturally (ie. with dialogue), a hotlink just might be in store so that the RP doesn't get bogged down in details.

This was my general advice. If you wish to include all the dry facts on something, write it up someplace else and link to it in your posts. Above all, when giving out details, try to be descriptive and spice things up. Baste your turkey, don't let it dry out. Hehe.

And a character's thoughts are a lovely way of getting the truth out when his ( or hers) are moving. This is a subtle way of letting the players know truths that their characters do not. And the more information - passed along in readable style - the other players have, the better they can write. The better every one writes the more fun it is to read.

One thing every one needs to remember is that this is all cooperative, all a joint effort and we're all supposed to have fun.

Also very good advice. Any newcomers here, please start taking notes!
One more piece of advice. Avoid the monologue!
What's a monologue? Classic example is Trek-speak. Here we have a starship crew that is supposedly very competent and good at their jobs. However, it seems every single mission that they must take time out to explain simple details to their fellow crewmates, and even the captain! No no and more no!
If your characters know something, they should not be explaining things to each other! Fan or not, take a look at the new Battlestar Galactica. They never explained what DRADIS was, how it worked, or what the acronym stood for. They never explained how the FTL jump drives functioned. Almost everyone in the scenes knew the basics, so they didn't bother explaining things to the audience in dialogue. This makes things much more immersive and believable.
Don't use dialogue to explain that your Jalten Warp Drive operates by bending spacetime...<SNIP> Ummm, no. If you have to explain things, do it in OOC commentary, do it in private musings, or do it out of post (Link to it).
One exception. If you have one character in the mix who doesn't understand something ICly, then by all means use that character as an excuse to explain it in dialogue. Heh.

[Jenrak]

If anyone wants to do an rp with me they're welcome. Nothing big though, bit busy. Don't mind what its about (as long as its not sport or trade. I hate sport rps and my government doesn't interfere in trade.)

Questers, if you're interested, I am trying to kick-start a try on this forums. I should have provided a link on the second page.

[ViZion]

A big thanks to Questers, Layarteb, etc!

[Dhia]

Removed

[Dhia]

_bump

[Questers]

I agree insofar that if the information is provided outside of the actual post itself then it need not be provided inside the post (athough it ought to be referenced, imo) but I dispute the notion that certain figures are not important. Ok, sure, we don't really need to know the fuel components of a missile so long as we're aware of its engine type. But if I contend that my bombers launch my missiles at your fleet and you contend that actually you have AWACS and fighters, so how did I get that close, I need to explain the exact process by which I broke through your defences: the best place this is in the post, but I guess you could actually do it in an OOC thread if you're not really interested in that thing. It all depends what you like, tbh; I find military technology & strategy fascinating, so these posts don't really bother me. Others find it dull, but whether you find it dull or not it's not outrageous to say a single statistic; particularly range, can affect an aero-naval battle (land is a bit different. It is less precise and technical and I don't really think precise numbers are necessary there.) Furthermore, if you get rid of all the numbers in one or two paragraphs you can spend the rest doing other things which are less number-y.

[Amazonian Beasts]

Oh, btw ViZion - put my email down at d.carroll@umiami.edu , and go ahead and stick my JaguarsTD AIM up there too...

[TRIAD Enterprises]

I agree insofar that if the information is provided outside of the actual post itself then it need not be provided inside the post (athough it ought to be referenced, imo) but I dispute the notion that certain figures are not important. Ok, sure, we don't really need to know the fuel components of a missile so long as we're aware of its engine type. But if I contend that my bombers launch my missiles at your fleet and you contend that actually you have AWACS and fighters, so how did I get that close, I need to explain the exact process by which I broke through your defences: the best place this is in the post, but I guess you could actually do it in an OOC thread if you're not really interested in that thing. It all depends what you like, tbh; I find military technology & strategy fascinating, so these posts don't really bother me. Others find it dull, but whether you find it dull or not it's not outrageous to say a single statistic; particularly range, can affect an aero-naval battle (land is a bit different. It is less precise and technical and I don't really think precise numbers are necessary there.) Furthermore, if you get rid of all the numbers in one or two paragraphs you can spend the rest doing other things which are less number-y.

A fair and logical argument here, an you do have a point. I suppose I should say what I meant here was everything in moderation. Know your audience if possible and if you're so inclined tailor your posts so you don't annoy. Course, that's if you care. Heh.
In any case, I suppose I have been irked by certain players I've dealt with who tend to give grocery lists of space fleets, warships, weapons, etc... Yadda, yadda, yadda. Maybe you (generic you here) won't be doing this, maybe you would consider it. My advice was simply don't interrupt your action and dialogue with long lists of 'data'. It breaks the flow of the story and is a pain to read. Try to find ways to smoothly integrate your 'data' into the story itself, either through action, dialogue, or exposition. Oh, and if you don't know what any of those three words mean, look em up. Heh.

[Third Spanish States]

Appropriate: "The AS-4 Kitchen's 1000kg shaped charged warhead was more than sufficient to cripple, or perhaps even to sink, a small escort ship with one direct hit, and her flight path which brought her to a maximum height of 27,000m and a lowest height of 500m made the weapon particularly deadly in the hands of long-range naval aviation bombers, to which the only defense was strong fighter cover and a vigilant defensive reconaissance doctrine."

I prefer this over being purely technical, because technical-only RPs seem like soullessly written AARs for Hearts of Iron 2, and using strategy in a game with solid gameplay mechanics is for me more fun than writing only on strategy, rather than on the human side of a conflict as well:

"Time wasn't going to be forgiving to the impatient. The cautious vigilance over the integrated information of its sensors by Admiral and communications officer would probably take many minutes of tension, as every man tried to hold his emotions, their hearts beating faster as they knew their fates would soon be decided. One minute has passed, as the complete uncertainty about how many forces were after him and approaching served as a much greater reason to desperate than the knowledge of where they truly were, and although nothing has been detected yet, the admiral reminded himself that it was wiser to be prepared, to be the first to fire should some of their vessels come too close and thus became able to easily detect them.

"Have rear torpedo system ready for deployment." and thus they prepared, working discretely to ensure that all that remained to do was to lock and launch them. The rear section of torpedo launchers also supported another form of torpedo besides conventional ones. The TT-9F Delayed activation torpedoes were developed as the evolution of the old anti-submarine mines, for they could be deployed without their propellers activated, making minimal, if any noise, and through their own internal buyoancy system, maintain depth in wait, until the enemy submarines came close enough, and the submarine which dropped them left far enough to not have its exact position pinpointed as they were fired. However, such devices wouldn't serve for their purpose at the depths the Tiburón was currently moving through because anything fired at such pressures would give them away, but instead they would be useful at quite lower depths, or as defensive measures, and thus they were kept in a reserve storage.

The chances of they detecting their enemies, and thus of being detected by them, increased at every moment, and even though they were still somewhat small, there was a certain worry, a certain sense of alert that at any moment it could happen. Their approach to reach the carrier remained slow, but steady, and they haven't come close enough yet to detect the enemy carrier from such depths. It was evident that both sides of this asymmetric battle were cautious, silent to avoid being easily detected, however a carrier was anything but silent and stealthy, and to detect it was only a matter of time.

However, to head back towards it, they would have to move a few degrees through port, and increase the chances of meeting some of the anti-submarine warfare screens of theirs. Further depth changes would probably bring far too much signature, and thus the admiral kept the Tiburón always at the same depth, for now.

Should the Tiburón have been built with vertical launch cells sacrificing its extensive, and sometimes considered excessive arrays of sensors, their chances of succeeding would be far smaller. Were thoughts like this, that things could be worse, that they could be running in an old, obsolete submarine instead with far higher chances of being detected, that served as small boosts to the broody, depressive mood Holloman hid beneath his stoic facade."

-----

Also, for people who'd like pointers on how to write action-packed sequences from the point of view of a single character rather than in a "Bird's Eye View", I may be of help, although I lack the patience and tolerance to support directly this.

[TRIAD Enterprises]

I prefer this over being purely technical, because technical-only RPs seem like soullessly written AARs for Hearts of Iron 2, and using strategy in a game with solid gameplay mechanics is for me more fun than writing only on strategy, rather than on the human side of a conflict as well:

<Snip>

-----

Also, for people who'd like pointers on how to write action-packed sequences from the point of view of a single character rather than in a "Bird's Eye View", I may be of help, although I lack the patience and tolerance to support directly this.

Oh ho! Now this is what I was talking about! This example by Third Spanish States here is a perfect example of the best ways to present cold facts and data on your toys! Take notes boys and girls, cause this is quality writing and roleplaying.

[Tanaara]

Yes that is an exemplary example.

There is a reason I play in very few War RP's - because most of them are either long laundry ORBAT lists with no soul or real interest there in - or the player is indulging in so much wank that every one is groaning in disbelief.

I play a lot of Future Tech, and yes I know that charges of realism might be flung at me, but I try even within the implausability of unknown future tech to have somthing that seems vaguely grounded.

Personal Rant: If you are playing MT and close to MT I really, really prefer to be as real as possible. The players that put out these monsterous tanks, or kilometer long battleships, or flying air craft carriers - I don't care if the physics say they are feaseable - they might be well be according to physics, but in rl? Oh please let me laugh my ass off! And seriously, they can't be justified and just make me nothing but annoyed and not willing to play with those players.

( And yes I am a player that mixes majick and psionics with material technology, so who am I to talk but like I said just a personal rant )

Last comment for this post but this is one of the things that I think is mandatory for being a decent role player:

NO ONE LINE POSTS!!

Please it is not hard to add in a few lines of what the character is doing, thinking, what the scenery is around him, etc. Even a short three to four line paragraph adds immeasureably to the quality of a post. Even when the post you are replying has left you all but nothing to go on, think of something because nothing, Nothing your character says and or does happens in a vaccum. Even dieing...

Example:
John was a dead man. And he knew it.

John floated in the vast singing silence of space. He knew that his life suit had only minutes of breatheable atmosphere left. Rather than take in the vast, implacable space about him, he closed his eyes and remembered....

And you can take that millions of places, turn an end into an entire novel should you choose. Infinitely more interesting that that one first sentence. And perhaps get others interested enough to get their patooties out there and rescue John.

[Questers]

Yes that is an exemplary example.

There is a reason I play in very few War RP's - because most of them are either long laundry ORBAT lists with no soul or real interest there in - or the player is indulging in so much wank that every one is groaning in disbelief.

Some of the most detailed orders of battle I have read have been from people who have had real interest in military strategy. Roleplay on NS can be many things, if you want it to be a Strategic Simulator then you can. There's nothing wrong with that IMO: It doesn't and shouldn't say anywhere that the purpose of roleplaying here is to write a story, which is often claimed.

Personal Rant: If you are playing MT and close to MT I really, really prefer to be as real as possible. The players that put out these monsterous tanks, or kilometer long battleships, or flying air craft carriers - I don't care if the physics say they are feaseable - they might be well be according to physics, but in rl? Oh please let me laugh my ass off! And seriously, they can't be justified and just make me nothing but annoyed and not willing to play with those players.

There aren't any countries in real life with a population larger than 1.3bn. NS isn't a carbon copy of real life; if you want one of those there are innumberable offsite forums. NS is where you can roleplay your nation how you want it to be. There is no such thing as "too realistic" or "not realistic enough" -- there is only the degree to which you can take either of those things but still have people prepared to RP with you.

Example:
John was a dead man. And he knew it.

John floated in the vast singing silence of space. He knew that his life suit had only minutes of breatheable atmosphere left. Rather than take in the vast, implacable space about him, he closed his eyes and remembered....

And you can take that millions of places, turn an end into an entire novel should you choose. Infinitely more interesting that that one first sentence. And perhaps get others interested enough to get their patooties out there and rescue John.

Incidentally, good writing isn't about how many adjectives you have; it's about accurately putting down on paper what is occuring in your fiction. "John is a dead man, and he knew it" might easily be more appropriate than whatever you've provided because of the impact it has on the reader. Most people can relate more easily to "John is a dad man, and he knew it" than they can a more wordy alternative. Writing isn't a contets to see how many large words you can use, it's about how you're portraying what essentially doesn't exist.

[Fatatatutti]

Some of the most detailed orders of battle I have read have been from people who have had real interest in military strategy. Roleplay on NS can be many things, if you want it to be a Strategic Simulator then you can. There's nothing wrong with that IMO: It doesn't and shouldn't say anywhere that the purpose of roleplaying here is to write a story, which is often claimed.

But that kind of RP is probably more difficult than simple story-telling. This thread is for people who don't know how to tell a story yet. We're talking about kids who want to be rock stars before they can even play a simple chord. Telling them that Grammy winners make their own rules doesn't help.

Incidentally, good writing isn't about how many adjectives you have; it's about accurately putting down on paper what is occuring in your fiction. "John is a dead man, and he knew it" might easily be more appropriate than whatever you've provided because of the impact it has on the reader. Most people can relate more easily to "John is a dad man, and he knew it" than they can a more wordy alternative. Writing isn't a contets to see how many large words you can use, it's about how you're portraying what essentially doesn't exist.

Here again, they need to learn to write before they learn to edit. Putting in too much is a good thing for these people. When they learn to tell a story using every adjective in the thesuarus, then they can learn to be more pithy.

[Jenrak]

Example:
John was a dead man. And he knew it.

John floated in the vast singing silence of space. He knew that his life suit had only minutes of breatheable atmosphere left. Rather than take in the vast, implacable space about him, he closed his eyes and remembered....

And you can take that millions of places, turn an end into an entire novel should you choose. Infinitely more interesting that that one first sentence. And perhaps get others interested enough to get their patooties out there and rescue John.

That depends, actually. If you're using John as a lead in to something else, then it would be better to keep it short. Keeping the focus on John could lead readers away from the bigger subject at hand, such as why he died, under what circumstances did he die and so forth. If John is a character that you want to focus on, you should still take into account the formality of the narrator. Is it omniscient? Did the character know John, and therefore talked to John in a more friendly, more human manner? Or perhaps you want to take a limited narrative about John?

For example, the one short sentence one creates more impact, and therefore makes it easier when the character has been built up throughout the story or to begin small at the conflict and expand larger.

'John was a dead man. And he knew it.

Lingering in space, innumerable thoughts ran through his head. Is it cold? Is it everlasting? What happens to the soul? Is there even a soul? All of these thoughts, gnawing away, gripping his sanity and wrangling it, choking his logic as his fear choked him. "My god. Oh my god." He didn't really want to accept it, honestly. But he should have seen it coming, especially in his position. A soldier, scared of dying? How many were there? How many felt as he had, since the war? Was it really worth it? Fighting this losing war? '

In a situation where subject shifts (from John to the War he dies in), having a short tidbit about a stock character is helpful, whereas talking too much about John misleads the reader if John isn't an important character, so I wouldn't dismiss something by how simple it seems or how short it may be, especially if the writer is capable at emulating the stream of consciousness in a character onto a limited or unlimited narrator (which, frankly, I haven't seen attempted very successfully on this new forums at all). It makes it easier to empathize with a character that might otherwise be nothing but stock, prevents long and drawn out formal prose that makes it boring to read sometimes and increases impact.

[Third Spanish States]

if you want it to be a Strategic Simulator then you can. There's nothing wrong with that IMO: It doesn't and shouldn't say anywhere that the purpose of roleplaying here is to write a story.

Having both is not impossible, it just brings as a serious disadvantage the fact that having both a collaborative story and a partly competitive conflict being made is very, very time consuming to the point you become prone to post once or twice a week at best, and prone to have some of your threads lasting for years rather than being finished in a relatively fast time like most war-themed RPs in II, and combining both also can lead to extremely long posts out of necessity as you'll have to think both strategically and about how your characters would react, and about how to describe a realistic firefight where the marines aren't Hollywood ones that would kill all the 50 redshirts pinning them down in a few seconds. Just because someone is putting a character somewhere, this character must not necessarily be a Hollywood Strategist. It's mostly a misconception that there is a boundary between Character and War RPs, and that they are thus "mutually exclusive".

Not the sort of thing to do if you want to be sure you'll finish all the threads you start.

--------------

As for adjectives always improving writing.

*drumbeat*

Compare this:

" A Barbarian walked through the barren wastelands of the Norgolian empire as a group of soldiers dared to challenge him into a battle, their swords ready to spill his blood... "

With this:

" The weather beaten trail wound ahead into the dust racked climes of the baren land which dominates large portions of the Norgolian empire. Age worn hoof prints smothered by the sifting sands of time shone dully against the dust splattered crust of earth. The tireless sun cast its parching rays of incandescense from overhead, half way through its daily revolution. Small rodents scampered about, occupying themselves in the daily accomplishments of their dismal lives. Dust sprayed over three heaving mounts in blinding clouds, while they bore the burdonsome cargoes of their struggling overseers.

"Prepare to embrace your creators in the stygian haunts of hell, barbarian", gasped the first soldier..."

The Eye of Argon is a major proof that longer is not necessarily better. The issue is not just posting one-liners, it is about being comprehensive and defining more detailed events, interactions and happenings along the way, rather than poetic descriptions and over-the-top adjectives to stretch an otherwise poorly written and badly thought-out story.

[Jenrak]

snip

Tried reading the Eye of Argon. That's pretty bad.

I'm also impressed to find another tvtroper.

[Third Spanish States]

snip

I'm also impressed to find another tvtroper.

Well, I didn't do this but I'll link to it anyway to show that certain Internet communities are interchangeable:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NationStates

This article has a good list of "things you shouldn't do if you wish to be original in NS."

I should emphasize these ones in particular, as they are the most common mistakes new players tend to do:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssPull

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... icsForever

It's the purpose of this thread to make these tropes directly related to poor writing less prevalent in NS. And I hope it'll have some success.

[Valipac]

Some of the most detailed orders of battle I have read have been from people who have had real interest in military strategy. Roleplay on NS can be many things, if you want it to be a Strategic Simulator then you can. There's nothing wrong with that IMO: It doesn't and shouldn't say anywhere that the purpose of roleplaying here is to write a story, which is often claimed.

But that kind of RP is probably more difficult than simple story-telling. This thread is for people who don't know how to tell a story yet. We're talking about kids who want to be rock stars before they can even play a simple chord. Telling them that Grammy winners make their own rules doesn't help.

This thread is for training. If someone needs help learning how to be detailed in military strategy, then they can come here for help, just like the people who have no clue how to tell a story. There's a reason Questers is considered one of the best RPers on this forum, so it's prudent to listen to his advice.

Incidentally, good writing isn't about how many adjectives you have; it's about accurately putting down on paper what is occuring in your fiction. "John is a dead man, and he knew it" might easily be more appropriate than whatever you've provided because of the impact it has on the reader. Most people can relate more easily to "John is a dad man, and he knew it" than they can a more wordy alternative. Writing isn't a contets to see how many large words you can use, it's about how you're portraying what essentially doesn't exist.

Here again, they need to learn to write before they learn to edit. Putting in too much is a good thing for these people. When they learn to tell a story using every adjective in the thesuarus, then they can learn to be more pithy.

The point of writing a long post is not to include every adjective under the sun. The point of writing a long post is being able to give a comprehensive review of all of the details. This means when you declare war, you don't just issue a declaration of war, you also give insight on to why you are declaring war, perhaps by showing a conference of your head of state and his top advisors debating the pros and cons of going to war. Rather than simply saying "I send x ships" you can tell who is commanding them, where they are coming from, what types of ships they are, etc. Whether or not adjectives are included is irrelevant; yes, they can make it sound better at times, but at others they are unnecessary.

[Jenrak]

snip...

I should emphasize these ones in particular, as they are the most common mistakes new players tend to do:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AssPull

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... icsForever

To be honest, in the time that I've been here, every idea has been milked dry. There's really nothing new anymore, it just goes down to how its delivered now, really, which is why we really need to make sure new players understand how to properly roleplay.

But yeah, the AssPull is pretty big around here. I think the bigger one is this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... veReserves

Though that would be somewhat understanding sometimes when people want to restart, but it makes some wars completely pointless, especially when a 'losing' nation refuses to acknowledge the effects of large casualties, leading to more Asspulls.

[New Brittonia]

Hey I'll be interesting in training.

Just saying.

[Fatatatutti]

This thread is for training. If someone needs help learning how to be detailed in military strategy, then they can come here for help, just like the people who have no clue how to tell a story. There's a reason Questers is considered one of the best RPers on this forum, so it's prudent to listen to his advice.

The thread is (or ought to be) for training the people who need training. Certainly, the best RPers will learn more from it than the worst RPers. One of the reasons they became good RPers was because of their ability and eagerness to learn. All I'm saying is that the thread ought to be (in my opinion) aimed at remedial learning for the worst RPers, not fine-tuning for the best.

The point of writing a long post is not to include every adjective under the sun. The point of writing a long post is being able to give a comprehensive review of all of the details. This means when you declare war, you don't just issue a declaration of war, you also give insight on to why you are declaring war, perhaps by showing a conference of your head of state and his top advisors debating the pros and cons of going to war. Rather than simply saying "I send x ships" you can tell who is commanding them, where they are coming from, what types of ships they are, etc. Whether or not adjectives are included is irrelevant; yes, they can make it sound better at times, but at others they are unnecessary.

You miss my point. I'm saying that inexperienced writers need to learn how to describe first and then they can learn how to describe "well".

The thread isn't (or shouldn't be) about how to win a Pulitzer Prize, or even about how to get your novel published. It is (or ought to be) about writing the damn thing.