Tiandi Big Discussion Thread

[Arumdaum]

Also, to any potential Japan players:

Religion in Japan was heavily syncretic for most of its recorded history prior to the Meiji Restoration. This meant that indigenous Japanese beliefs mixed and evolved with beliefs such as Buddhism in Japan to the point where they were difficult to remove from one another following Japan's modernization.

The separation of Shinto and Buddhism by the Meiji oligarchy and the creation of State Shinto was a response to Western imperialism and a way to foster a sense of nationalism and identity for a rapidly changing Japan.

I think it'd be cool if in Tiandi, Shinto and Buddhism were never separated. This is what I've done for Fusen.

[Senyosu]

(Owner of Surau/Panidesa)
Worthy of consideration is how ideas develop and the contextual factors that provide how the history of philosophy would be itself shaped. Understanding that trade of goods and interactions between nations have always shaped how humanity as a whole defined their conceptions of reality is a good starting point from which one can construe the path or flow of ideas (philosophical canon). For example, the 17th century of our world (Earth, not Tiandi) saw the increase of philosophical works as a result of the printing press and increased global trade of resources. Whereas the early 19th century saw individuals such as the German Idealists responding to those individuals of the 17-18th centuries alongside the findings in enlightenment era science that fundamentally altered how humanity would come to define itself in the world around them. Likewise, these examples of the real world would not entirely translate well unto how things developed in Tiandi, but the factors that result in how these ideas would come to be in the philosophical canon must be considered).

Ultimately I recommend individuals to read up on not just the Big Three (Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism), but the works of other figures (if one were to say, create a foundation for the beginnings of Idealism and socialism). To that end, it is important to note ideas of such things that we have now are a part of a continuous canon of various modes of thought, much like a dialogue between individuals through time. Person A could be responding to the social circumstance with Person B responding towards that, and so on and so forth.

[Arumdaum]

Regarding Uju, I think it's important to remember that it is different from RL North America in several different ways. This difference largely stems from the fact that Uju is not isolated from the rest of the world, while the Americas were. This results in several different dynamics for Uju and the rest of the world in general.

(Note: Tiandi largely assumes that crops and animals will originate in areas around similar cultures as they did IRL for convenience e.g. rice for the Chinese, maize in Mesoamerica, etc.)

1. The most important implication of this is that Uju will not see 90% of its population wiped out from disease and conquest.
   
   
   1. Diseases which originated from outside of Uju will have a fairly easy time reaching Uju, meaning that Ujun societies would have time to develop resistance to these diseases over a long period of time, like societies in Afro-Eurasia IRL, and not have to deal with having every single deadly disease imaginable simultaneously introduced to them at the same time.
      
   2. There is now the potential for deadly diseases to arise in Uju and then spread to continents such as Jungju and Yoju. However, they would be just another disease that societies would develop resistance to over time such as smallpox and measles. The populations of other continents would not be wiped out by these diseases in the same way that societies in Uju will not be wiped out from diseases from other continents.
2. Uju will have domesticated animals such as horses, camels, pigs, and cows. Aside from disease, this has several important implications as Ujun societies will have a secondary products revolution. They now have animals to plow the fields, provide fertilizer, serve as transportation, serve as pack animals, and provide things like dairy products and wool. This also has several important implications.
   
   
   1. Uju will historically have been able to support a much larger population.
      
   2. Uju would have had larger, more powerful, and more centralized states. Imagine major civilizations as not the Aztecs or the Inca, but rather China, India, and Europe.
      
      
      1. There is the potential for indigenous religions to exist on a large-scale in Uju, and for religions that emerge in Uju to become major world religions.
   3. Pastoral societies are now possible in Uju. Imagine people like the Sioux IRL taking a position similar to the Mongols or other pastoral peoples of the Eurasian steppe.
      
   4. Ujun societies would not be as reliant upon human labor--human sacrifice may not exist later on to the extent in which it did in IRL Mesoamerica?
3. Crops such as maize, cassava, and potatoes would have spread to the rest of the world long before the early modern era.
   
   
   1. In addition to Uju being able to support a much larger population, the rest of the world would also have been able to do as well.

There are a few things we must ask ourselves due to this major diversion from following RL world history. How would an early population boom in the "Old World" have affected the pace of early globalization and later on, industrialization? How would the lack of huge settler colonies for Sinju to extract resources from have affected the development of capitalism and industrialization there? How influential would Uju have been historically on the rest of the world?

[Victoriala II]

Uju developing authoritarian civilizations is as possible as it developing collective/egalitarian societies in similar standing and potency to civilization

daily reminder (read what I wrote on the doc, glory to the republic of Tortilla City)

[Arumdaum]

Bump?

[Sabara]

Bump?

hi

[Arumdaum]

I'm imagining an early regional forum in Sinju which would delineate rankings within the international system sometime around 1000s - 1800s. The idea is of an early hierarchical international system that isn't centered around a single massive state but rather based on consensus between states. However, I am unsure of how to make it work exactly.

Why would states care? Why would states adhere to the decisions made? How would such an institution survive major wars between these states?

What I'm thinking is that these somewhat regular conferences would confer legitimacy upon rulers, providing respect both domestically and externally. Perhaps the belief system dominant in Sinju is altered so that these things are really important...

Perhaps this can start as a thing between two or three states but gradually encompasses most states in Sinju. I'm thinking perhaps this is institutionalized into a meeting every ten years to update everything. Host cities can be decided at the end of each meeting. Maybe only countries whose rulers have a certain rank can host? Each conference would last 3 - 6 months.

I'm thinking

Emperor > king > duke??
Or perhaps just emperor > king

The regular movement of a ton of delegates to these host cities can foster economic development and the creation of new trade routes.

I'm thinking of how to incorporate the tributary system into this...

Only emperors can host these meetings and everyone of a lower rank provides tribute while other emperors just chill? Provide tribute to just the emperor that is host? Provide tribute to all emperors?

Emperors would have to give back more in gifts than they are given in tribute to show their "benevolence."

[Arumdaum]

https://tiandi.miraheze.org/wiki/Sinju_Congress

[Arumdaum]

lol i changed my sig how is it

[Samanohuwa]

I guess posting here to increase activity and attention is a thing, then. I plan on doing some posts here and there on F&NI to do some simple worldbuilding to start with, any suggestions as to threads?

[Arumdaum]

I guess posting here to increase activity and attention is a thing, then. I plan on doing some posts here and there on F&NI to do some simple worldbuilding to start with, any suggestions as to threads?

I agree.

I don't have any specific threads in mind; I'd say post in anything to which you can contribute to with something in your signature promoting Tiandi. We've gotten quite a few people find out about our region through one of our threads popping up on "Latest Forum Topics" so I think posting here regularly is a good idea.

[Tiandi]

bumpity

[Victoriala II]

giggity.

also i need a colonial ruler kinda for haeyeog, who still claims the islands formally

[Arumdaum]

Started working on map again.

[Sabara]

Started working on map again.

Looking good as always

[Arumdaum]

someone help me make up countries ahaha

[Arumdaum]

Looking forward to a revival of the region.

[Samano2wa]

Hello? I was told this was the grave digger's guild.

[Scandinavia]

Hello? I was told this was the grave digger's guild.

bro

[Komusire]

Hello? I was told this was the grave digger's guild.

bro

wtf Scandinavia is supposed to be a YAKUT colony

[Rupudska]

Hello? I was told this was the grave digger's guild.

bro

I may be posting with my main, but how the fuck has no one managed to use Scandinavia before you?

[Arumdaum]

bro

I may be posting with my main, but how the fuck has no one managed to use Scandinavia before you?

Posting with your main is fine!

Also...

good timing

[Arumdaum]

People need to post here more...

[Wokajoor]

RE: Socialism, philosophy, etc.

Dominant philosophies and ideologies in Tiandi will have fairly different roots from the ones which dominate Earth. The impetus for the development of modern socialist thought in Tiandi will be without a doubt the industrial revolution. However, this will draw back on previous philosophical traditions.

While it may seem easy to simply replace socialism with Mohism or Agriculturalism, neither of these philosophies were meant to deal with the rapid changes and constant disruption which came with industrialization and capitalism. Any new schools of thought would be their own--more than just Mohism or Agriculturalism. Thinkers from these new schools of thought would in addition draw ideas not only from ancient philosophers but also more contemporaneous philosophers. Philosophers would be more influenced by their contemporaries and the society in which they live rather than by ancient philosophers who lived in wildly different societies and times, although ancient philosophers would still be influential.

We had a player here who said that his nation was Daoist because that seemed the most natural for free trade--we should remember, however, that Tiandi is not simply 17th-century East Asia with 21st-century technology, and furthermore, we should get beyond the Western stereotype that East Asian societies are impervious to change. We should also remember that religion in East Asia was historically syncretic and that people drew their beliefs from several differing traditions rather than just one.

In Tiandi, Confucian philosophy became dominant throughout Sinju, but Confucianism existed alongside other belief systems such as Buddhism and Taoism. Unlike many people have assumed, this does not mean that Confucianism completely dominates Sinju and the world today, and that everyone is a hardcore Confucian. I've generally imagined Confucianism in the Center taking a role somewhat akin to Christianity in the West (with obvious differences, considering Confucianism isn't a religion)--present and heavily influential, but no longer a dominant force in society. Several aspects of Confucian ideology, such as the disregard for merchants, would be weakened as Sinju becomes increasingly capitalistic.

Furthermore, Confucianism in Tiandi would be different from Confucianism IRL. We have to reconsider a few things: considering Sinju and Tianqi's maritime geography, would there have been the same disregard for merchants? Belief systems cannot be imported wholesale into Tiandi, and must be melded in order to both make sense and fit in regional canon. This doesn't mean everyone has to make con-religions and con-philosophies, but it means that Jesus can't be born in Bethlehem and executed by the Romans (neither Bethlehem nor the Romans exist here).

There are a few things, though, I'd like to preserve from RL East Asia. First is the lack of strong, organized religion and the dominance of a secular scholar-gentry class. Another is the syncretism that was present heavily in East Asia, with Buddhism, Taoism, and indigenous beliefs such as Muism in Korea or Shinto in Japan all melding together.

Thoughts?

Pulling from this,

Going off of the framework for Zizhudao, and for a lack of Soviet and US analogues, I think we can diverge from the default capitalist vs communist world. Without say, Marx or the boogeyman of the Soviet Union, perhaps social revolutions of Tiandi's 20th century more easily accept democratic socialistic thought, resulting with communism not being as stigmatized or much of a hard ideology.

For example, from the Path of Rule of the Self doc, "instead of punishing the people and strengthening the state, the school applies the inverse, strengthen the people and weaken the state." could be interpreted as individual worker empowerment vs the collectivizing ruling rich and scholar-gentry. Zizhuao could also believe in weakening the state along some line of marxist logic(the state is a tool to oppress the proles, common people, etc).

The world would be highly multipolar, but could have the 'Zizhudao dominated sphere' vs a competing Theocratic/Fascist-style(focused on centralization and regimentation) sphere, with a lot inbetween. I could easily see fascist-alikes rising after the Eulhae War and remaining prominent, believing that war as a revolution against Zizhudao.