NATION

PASSWORD

Tiandi Big Discussion Thread

A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events. [In character]

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23904
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby ArUmdAUM » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:38 pm

RE: Socialism, philosophy, etc.

Dominant philosophies and ideologies in Tiandi will have fairly different roots from the ones which dominate Earth. The impetus for the development of modern socialist thought in Tiandi will be without a doubt the industrial revolution. However, this will draw back on previous philosophical traditions.

While it may seem easy to simply replace socialism with Mohism or Agriculturalism, neither of these philosophies were meant to deal with the rapid changes and constant disruption which came with industrialization and capitalism. Any new schools of thought would be their own--more than just Mohism or Agriculturalism. Thinkers from these new schools of thought would in addition draw ideas not only from ancient philosophers but also more contemporaneous philosophers. Philosophers would be more influenced by their contemporaries and the society in which they live rather than by ancient philosophers who lived in wildly different societies and times, although ancient philosophers would still be influential.

We had a player here who said that his nation was Daoist because that seemed the most natural for free trade--we should remember, however, that Tiandi is not simply 17th-century East Asia with 21st-century technology, and furthermore, we should get beyond the Western stereotype that East Asian societies are impervious to change. We should also remember that religion in East Asia was historically syncretic and that people drew their beliefs from several differing traditions rather than just one.

In Tiandi, Confucian philosophy became dominant throughout Sinju, but Confucianism existed alongside other belief systems such as Buddhism and Taoism. Unlike many people have assumed, this does not mean that Confucianism completely dominates Sinju and the world today, and that everyone is a hardcore Confucian. I've generally imagined Confucianism in the Center taking a role somewhat akin to Christianity in the West (with obvious differences, considering Confucianism isn't a religion)--present and heavily influential, but no longer a dominant force in society. Several aspects of Confucian ideology, such as the disregard for merchants, would be weakened as Sinju becomes increasingly capitalistic.

Furthermore, Confucianism in Tiandi would be different from Confucianism IRL. We have to reconsider a few things: considering Sinju and Tianqi's maritime geography, would there have been the same disregard for merchants? Belief systems cannot be imported wholesale into Tiandi, and must be melded in order to both make sense and fit in regional canon. This doesn't mean everyone has to make con-religions and con-philosophies, but it means that Jesus can't be born in Bethlehem and executed by the Romans (neither Bethlehem nor the Romans exist here).

There are a few things, though, I'd like to preserve from RL East Asia. First is the lack of strong, organized religion and the dominance of a secular scholar-gentry class. Another is the syncretism that was present heavily in East Asia, with Buddhism, Taoism, and indigenous beliefs such as Muism in Korea or Shinto in Japan all melding together.

Thoughts?
JOIN TIANDI 天地 ALT-HIST MT RP REGION WITH EXCEPTIONAL
APP NOW

User avatar
Sabara
Minister
 
Posts: 3467
Founded: Jan 14, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Sabara » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:52 pm

Just echoing off Arum.

To everyone who thinks that Sinju ought to be more autocratic/illiberal because East Asian societies are "inherently" authoritarian: it's really important to note that ideologies associated with real-life East Asia will be completely different in Sinju. Industrialization, imperialism, and commercialization will totally alter the ways that people think and conduct themselves, just as European society was fundamentally altered by the Industrial Revolution. As the middle class in countries like Jeongmi and Meissan expands throughout the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, people will demand more representation in government- again, similar to what happened in Europe. The effects of development are, for the most part, universal across societies.
Last edited by Sabara on Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
A unique MT rp: Tiandi

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23904
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby ArUmdAUM » Sat Mar 10, 2018 2:57 pm

Also, to any potential Japan players:

Religion in Japan was heavily syncretic for most of its recorded history prior to the Meiji Restoration. This meant that indigenous Japanese beliefs mixed and evolved with beliefs such as Buddhism in Japan to the point where they were difficult to remove from one another following Japan's modernization.

The separation of Shinto and Buddhism by the Meiji oligarchy and the creation of State Shinto was a response to Western imperialism and a way to foster a sense of nationalism and identity for a rapidly changing Japan.

I think it'd be cool if in Tiandi, Shinto and Buddhism were never separated. This is what I've done for Fusen.
JOIN TIANDI 天地 ALT-HIST MT RP REGION WITH EXCEPTIONAL
APP NOW

User avatar
Senyosu
Senator
 
Posts: 3609
Founded: Mar 14, 2014
New York Times Democracy

Postby Senyosu » Sat Mar 10, 2018 5:17 pm

(Owner of Surau/Panidesa)
Worthy of consideration is how ideas develop and the contextual factors that provide how the history of philosophy would be itself shaped. Understanding that trade of goods and interactions between nations have always shaped how humanity as a whole defined their conceptions of reality is a good starting point from which one can construe the path or flow of ideas (philosophical canon). For example, the 17th century of our world (Earth, not Tiandi) saw the increase of philosophical works as a result of the printing press and increased global trade of resources. Whereas the early 19th century saw individuals such as the German Idealists responding to those individuals of the 17-18th centuries alongside the findings in enlightenment era science that fundamentally altered how humanity would come to define itself in the world around them. Likewise, these examples of the real world would not entirely translate well unto how things developed in Tiandi, but the factors that result in how these ideas would come to be in the philosophical canon must be considered).

Ultimately I recommend individuals to read up on not just the Big Three (Confucianism, Taoism, Buddhism), but the works of other figures (if one were to say, create a foundation for the beginnings of Idealism and socialism). To that end, it is important to note ideas of such things that we have now are a part of a continuous canon of various modes of thought, much like a dialogue between individuals through time. Person A could be responding to the social circumstance with Person B responding towards that, and so on and so forth.
Senyosu is under reconstruction, however, former tropes still apply

The State of Senyosu ― Senñosy-ül Jür

Your resident Frugal, Nationalistic, Quasi-Jingoist, Buddhist-Tengrist, North-East Asian, Technocratic, Democratic Khanate
anything u want me to be babe ;)

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23904
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby ArUmdAUM » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:00 pm

Regarding Uju, I think it's important to remember that it is different from RL North America in several different ways. This difference largely stems from the fact that Uju is not isolated from the rest of the world, while the Americas were. This results in several different dynamics for Uju and the rest of the world in general.

(Note: Tiandi largely assumes that crops and animals will originate in areas around similar cultures as they did IRL for convenience e.g. rice for the Chinese, maize in Mesoamerica, etc.)

  1. The most important implication of this is that Uju will not see 90% of its population wiped out from disease and conquest.

    1. Diseases which originated from outside of Uju will have a fairly easy time reaching Uju, meaning that Ujun societies would have time to develop resistance to these diseases over a long period of time, like societies in Afro-Eurasia IRL, and not have to deal with having every single deadly disease imaginable simultaneously introduced to them at the same time.
    2. There is now the potential for deadly diseases to arise in Uju and then spread to continents such as Jungju and Yoju. However, they would be just another disease that societies would develop resistance to over time such as smallpox and measles. The populations of other continents would not be wiped out by these diseases in the same way that societies in Uju will not be wiped out from diseases from other continents.
  2. Uju will have domesticated animals such as horses, camels, pigs, and cows. Aside from disease, this has several important implications as Ujun societies will have a secondary products revolution. They now have animals to plow the fields, provide fertilizer, serve as transportation, serve as pack animals, and provide things like dairy products and wool. This also has several important implications.

    1. Uju will historically have been able to support a much larger population.
    2. Uju would have had larger, more powerful, and more centralized states. Imagine major civilizations as not the Aztecs or the Inca, but rather China, India, and Europe.

      1. There is the potential for indigenous religions to exist on a large-scale in Uju, and for religions that emerge in Uju to become major world religions.
    3. Pastoral societies are now possible in Uju. Imagine people like the Sioux IRL taking a position similar to the Mongols or other pastoral peoples of the Eurasian steppe.
    4. Ujun societies would not be as reliant upon human labor--human sacrifice may not exist later on to the extent in which it did in IRL Mesoamerica?
  3. Crops such as maize, cassava, and potatoes would have spread to the rest of the world long before the early modern era.

    1. In addition to Uju being able to support a much larger population, the rest of the world would also have been able to do as well.

There are a few things we must ask ourselves due to this major diversion from following RL world history. How would an early population boom in the "Old World" have affected the pace of early globalization and later on, industrialization? How would the lack of huge settler colonies for Sinju to extract resources from have affected the development of capitalism and industrialization there? How influential would Uju have been historically on the rest of the world?
JOIN TIANDI 天地 ALT-HIST MT RP REGION WITH EXCEPTIONAL
APP NOW

User avatar
Victoriala II
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1752
Founded: Jul 30, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Victoriala II » Sun Mar 11, 2018 5:36 pm

Uju developing authoritarian civilizations is as possible as it developing collective/egalitarian societies in similar standing and potency to civilization

daily reminder (read what I wrote on the doc, glory to the republic of Tortilla City)

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23904
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby ArUmdAUM » Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:31 pm

Bump?
JOIN TIANDI 天地 ALT-HIST MT RP REGION WITH EXCEPTIONAL
APP NOW

User avatar
Sabara
Minister
 
Posts: 3467
Founded: Jan 14, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Sabara » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:11 pm

ArUmdAUM wrote:Bump?

hi :unsure:

:kiss:
A unique MT rp: Tiandi

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23904
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby ArUmdAUM » Mon Dec 10, 2018 3:30 am

I'm imagining an early regional forum in Sinju which would delineate rankings within the international system sometime around 1000s - 1800s. The idea is of an early hierarchical international system that isn't centered around a single massive state but rather based on consensus between states. However, I am unsure of how to make it work exactly.

Why would states care? Why would states adhere to the decisions made? How would such an institution survive major wars between these states?

What I'm thinking is that these somewhat regular conferences would confer legitimacy upon rulers, providing respect both domestically and externally. Perhaps the belief system dominant in Sinju is altered so that these things are really important...

Perhaps this can start as a thing between two or three states but gradually encompasses most states in Sinju. I'm thinking perhaps this is institutionalized into a meeting every ten years to update everything. Host cities can be decided at the end of each meeting. Maybe only countries whose rulers have a certain rank can host? Each conference would last 3 - 6 months.

I'm thinking

Emperor > king > duke??
Or perhaps just emperor > king

The regular movement of a ton of delegates to these host cities can foster economic development and the creation of new trade routes.

I'm thinking of how to incorporate the tributary system into this...

Only emperors can host these meetings and everyone of a lower rank provides tribute while other emperors just chill? Provide tribute to just the emperor that is host? Provide tribute to all emperors?

Emperors would have to give back more in gifts than they are given in tribute to show their "benevolence."
Last edited by ArUmdAUM on Mon Dec 10, 2018 4:52 am, edited 4 times in total.
JOIN TIANDI 天地 ALT-HIST MT RP REGION WITH EXCEPTIONAL
APP NOW

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23904
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby ArUmdAUM » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:08 am

JOIN TIANDI 天地 ALT-HIST MT RP REGION WITH EXCEPTIONAL
APP NOW

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23904
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby ArUmdAUM » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:04 am

lol i changed my sig how is it
JOIN TIANDI 天地 ALT-HIST MT RP REGION WITH EXCEPTIONAL
APP NOW

User avatar
Samanohuwa
Civil Servant
 
Posts: 10
Founded: Jan 09, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Samanohuwa » Thu Jan 31, 2019 12:06 pm

I guess posting here to increase activity and attention is a thing, then. I plan on doing some posts here and there on F&NI to do some simple worldbuilding to start with, any suggestions as to threads?

User avatar
ArUmdAUM
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 23904
Founded: Oct 21, 2009
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby ArUmdAUM » Thu Jan 31, 2019 2:50 pm

Samanohuwa wrote:I guess posting here to increase activity and attention is a thing, then. I plan on doing some posts here and there on F&NI to do some simple worldbuilding to start with, any suggestions as to threads?

I agree.

I don't have any specific threads in mind; I'd say post in anything to which you can contribute to with something in your signature promoting Tiandi. We've gotten quite a few people find out about our region through one of our threads popping up on "Latest Forum Topics" so I think posting here regularly is a good idea.
JOIN TIANDI 天地 ALT-HIST MT RP REGION WITH EXCEPTIONAL
APP NOW

User avatar
Tiandi
Lobbyist
 
Posts: 13
Founded: Apr 18, 2015
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Tiandi » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:08 pm

bumpity
Tiandi - A Unique Roleplaying Region

User avatar
Victoriala II
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1752
Founded: Jul 30, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Victoriala II » Sun Feb 17, 2019 1:28 am

giggity.

also i need a colonial ruler kinda for haeyeog, who still claims the islands formally

Previous

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to International Incidents

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Akatia, Khataiy, McNernia, Yukensha

Advertisement

Remove ads