Tiandi Big Discussion Thread

[Sabara]

I do believe Muslims exist in vast numbers, especially in Dayganistan and Barujaya.

There is a Muslim minority in Barujaya, but it's majority Hindu.

[Daeseong]

--lol just pushing my agenda nothing to see here--

[Sabara]

-snip-

Gungju is close enough for trade with northern/central Yoju (our Middle Eastern area). This should allow for Abrahamaic religions like Christianity to gain a foothold.

I would prefer allowing Gungjun players to choose their religion rather than forcing one on them.

[Dayganistan]

I think if we want white European terrorists so bad we should have terrorist Vikings or something.

[Arumdaum]

Let's talk more about Gungju once we get actual people there

[Arumdaum]

In 1845, Seo Yang-cheol of the Jeongmian Socialist Party wrote the "Principles of Communism," a short piece which outlined the goals of the Jeongmian Socialist Party. However, the influence of this work is often overestimated in the capitalist Center. Seo also wrote several other works, one of the most famous being The New Economy: Capitalism, a critique of capitalist practices, particularly in the Center.

Seo saw himself as more than just a philosopher - he also saw himself as a modern man and a scientist. To him, communism was inevitable.

There were several other intellectuals who promoted similar views, such as Tsang Syu-ming in Meisaan and Hasakawa Kenta in Akitsukuni.

[Toishima]

MAJOR CANON CHANGE

Akitsukuni is, as has been for several weeks, no longer a part of the Sinju Union. It has never been a part of the Sinju Union.

The 2015 Sinju War has been modified greatly to justify the lack of Jeongmi intervention.

In its place, the 2015 Sinju Sea Incident, which may also be called a war, would occur. In this incident, following a clash between Akitsukunese and Meisaani Coast Guard and fishing vessels in the disputed area near Lukdou, some Imperial Navy ships moved into the area not in formation, suggesting an unplanned action. A nearby Meisaani carrier force was returning from a training exercise and moved to scare the Akitsukunese away. Suddenly, an Akitsukunese plane collided with a Meisaani plane, and seeing this as an attack the Akitsukunese attacked the Meisaanis, damaging the carrier and maybe a few of the escorts. The Meisaani fleet retaliated, heavily damaging the Imperial anti-carrier cruiser before both sides were ordered to withdraw.

This "war" ended in 30 minutes and the details of the whole skirmish remain extremely questionable, and both sides claim the other was responsible for firing the first shot as many planes were flying all over the place, and various satellites and systems were conveniently hacked by an unknown force (ahem ISDF ahem) during the incident.

Regardless, war was not declared by either side, and there was no time for Jeongmi to get involved. Jeongmi was also involved in the Invasion of Ratanakiri at the time and was not in a position to do much. Post-war sanctions by the Sinju Union were placed on Akitsukuni, and Akitsukuni is still contesting these actions as they believe the collision was intentional or some kind of attack on their fighter that went wrong. As things were over so quickly, the economic dip that occurred was only a very minor speed bump.

In the aftermath of this action, the Akitsukunese coup occurred to get rid of far-right Ishihara, who supported and may have ordered the action. The officers involved in this action were made into heroes defending Akitsukunese sovereignty, though were subtly removed from frontline command positions as a sign of peace towards the mainland. This time, as the threat of crisis was not as great, the Imperial Military released control of the government after two months to a newly-voted in civilian Prime Minister, Hisoka Yamamoto, formerly the Minister of Justice. That's right. My PM is now a civilian.

At the same time, the Imperial Military is on an even higher alert in their home territory as they fear an attack by the Mainland may come soon. The largest and most powerful navy in the region continues to prowl the entire region preparing for war. The coup had a more sinister goal, which it achieved, placing an Imperial Armed Forces-controlled man into the position of Defence Minister, as it had been for the entire 1950s to 1991 period. This means the Imperial Armed Forces once again has influence and a blank cheque in the government, hidden by the civilian facade of the whole thing.

Sabara will probably follow up with the effects this had in Meisaan, such as the rise of the populists.

Across the Sinju Sea as an RP may be obliterated as many of its facts are now completely screwed.

Another proper war RP may occur soon, possibly involving Jeongmi and possibly having a Meisaan with effective leadership. Akitsukunese forces will also use their full Russian equipment, as it should be.

[Sabara]

Meisaan's Jiwiu (lower house of the national parliament) is dominated by a coalition between the ruling center-left Labour Party and socialist Buddhist Democrats. It has been this way for the past thirty years, and many millennial Meisaani have never seen another government in power. The coalition originally oversaw a massive spurt of economic growth in the late 80's and early 90's, but were blamed for a poor response to the global recession that destroyed employment and wrecked the working class during 1996-1999(?).

In 2000 the Gwokman Minsin, a populist/protectionist/quasi-isolationist party supporting the withdrawal of Meisaan from the Sinju Union and a distancing both diplomatically and economically from Jeongmi gained a 15% vote in the Jiwiu, 12 percentage points higher than 1996. Since then they've been making rapid gains, suffering only minor setbacks in 2002 and 2012.

GM is led by Yue Sin, is a pseudo-nationalist with ancestral ties to Sun Tak-Wah, the legendary general who almost coup'ed the Meisaani civilian government twice- in 1942 following Eulhae and 1958 following a gridlock emergency in the Jiwiu. Yue is a staunch supporter of protectionist trade policy, extreme limits on foreign immigration, withdrawal from the Sinju common currency, independent foreign policy (especially from Jeongmi) and a harsher approach to Akitsukuni.

The Naval Standoff in 2015 was the perfect moment for the Gwokman Minsin, as it gave momentum to the already budding nationalist movement, especially in the context of Akitsukuni's increasingly aggressive and aloof "civilian government." The Saigong Riots also inflated some radical elements of society that seek to end foreign immigration, especially of Gungjus.

This is all a prelude to the upcoming general election this October, with the Gwokman Minsin leading in the polls. If they win the election, they will likely seek to assert themselves in disputes with Akitsukuni- especially in the islands.

[Sabara]

The Emperor is dead.

I will be posting further updates tomorrow

In the meantime, feel free to post responses to the news!

[Arumdaum]

The Great Depression

also Tropic of Cancer is NORTHERN TROPIC

Tropic of Capricorn is SOUTHERN TROPIC

in this region

[Arumdaum]

I'd love if any major work on your wiki articles were reported here! It'd be nice for me and others to see what kind of work you have done, and perhaps we can inspire each other on various things, haha.

It'd also be nice if any new articles you make are linked to here so I can put it on my watchlist.

http://iiwiki.com/wiki/Racism_in_Jeongmi
http://iiwiki.com/wiki/History_of_women_in_Jeongmi

I am proud to say that I am the only person on IIWiki to have pages devoted to racism and the history of women.

fake edit: Also obesity!

[Sabara]

Please stand by. The leadership is about to announce a major canon/stat change, especially for the nations of Jeongmi, Meisaan, and Nochtlico.

[Arumdaum]

I am developing the Khak (鶴) people; a minority present primarily in Jeongmi and Fusen (mostly Jeongmi) on Yeoseo and Western Fusen.

[Sabara]

Yo peeps

[Daeseong]

Yo peeps

hey big guy

I am developing the Khak (鶴) people; a minority present primarily in Jeongmi and Fusen (mostly Jeongmi) on Yeoseo and Western Fusen.

nice

[Daeseong]

Okay fellas,

So I think it's fairly clear that Tiandi needs some RP activity. While factbooking is fun and dandy, we're on this site to role-play, first a foremost, and I think that a solid RP or two should be able to stimulate much-needed activity.

A few days ago on the IRC, we considered having a large nation (probably Indochinese) undergo severe Balkanization. I was thinking this could set the stage for a long-term humanitarian and military intervention that could pit various proxy groups against one another. This could be, instead of a single RP, the foundation of many RPs.

What do you all think? How can we stimulate activity? Do you think that this RP setting is interesting?

Also: Reminder to fill out the spreadsheet once you're accepted

[Intermountain States]

Okay fellas,

So I think it's fairly clear that Tiandi needs some RP activity. While factbooking is fun and dandy, we're on this site to role-play, first a foremost, and I think that a solid RP or two should be able to stimulate much-needed activity.

A few days ago on the IRC, we considered having a large nation (probably Indochinese) undergo severe Balkanization. I was thinking this could set the stage for a long-term humanitarian and military intervention that could pit various proxy groups against one another. This could be, instead of a single RP, the foundation of many RPs.

What do you all think? How can we stimulate activity? Do you think that this RP setting is interesting?

Also: Reminder to fill out the spreadsheet once you're accepted

We're gonna have to purge some stuff on the spreadsheet

[Taeju]

Yes that would be fun. Lets get some RP crankin

[Altorke]

Okay fellas,

So I think it's fairly clear that Tiandi needs some RP activity. While factbooking is fun and dandy, we're on this site to role-play, first a foremost, and I think that a solid RP or two should be able to stimulate much-needed activity.

A few days ago on the IRC, we considered having a large nation (probably Indochinese) undergo severe Balkanization. I was thinking this could set the stage for a long-term humanitarian and military intervention that could pit various proxy groups against one another. This could be, instead of a single RP, the foundation of many RPs.

What do you all think? How can we stimulate activity? Do you think that this RP setting is interesting?

Also: Reminder to fill out the spreadsheet once you're accepted

That could certainly be interesting. My nation is extremely unstable, sectarian, and dirt poor, so I could always implode if the Indochinese part of the scenario isn't imperative.

[Toishima]

Okay fellas,

So I think it's fairly clear that Tiandi needs some RP activity. While factbooking is fun and dandy, we're on this site to role-play, first a foremost, and I think that a solid RP or two should be able to stimulate much-needed activity.

A few days ago on the IRC, we considered having a large nation (probably Indochinese) undergo severe Balkanization. I was thinking this could set the stage for a long-term humanitarian and military intervention that could pit various proxy groups against one another. This could be, instead of a single RP, the foundation of many RPs.

What do you all think? How can we stimulate activity? Do you think that this RP setting is interesting?

Also: Reminder to fill out the spreadsheet once you're accepted

For a second I thought someone finally got his head out of the sand, then realised it was you.

Seconded to the max. Lack of care for RP and overbearing desire by certain others to do nothing but worldbuild was one of the reasons I left this region previously.

With me now as Super Myanmar and the greatest power in that general area you can bet that the Democratic Republic of Myaar'tway is going to get involved Russia-style, possibly even blocking the inevitable CoN mission through shenanigans and rules-mongering in the CoN. They may also create a People's Volunteer Army-type 'non-affiliated' military force to intervene directly without technically going to war with everyone else.

[Sabara]

While I agree that it would be beneficial to start a roleplay, we need to make sure we have a solid worldbuilding scene as well. This region wasn't created simply for RP, even though RP is a key component. Just make sure to work on your wikis more or as much as RP.

That is all.

[Toishima]

The implication that anyone would abandon worldbuilding entirely to RP is preposterous and insulting. The very essence of RPing is grounded in worldbuilding, as without a world to RP in there would be no RP anyway. And, without RPing, the world would freeze and stop being built. We've long established that we're a realistic region in terms of aftershocks in the world due to singular events. For example, if this war is to pass, people would have to develop their economies so that they can have their economies wrecked by the war, and in order to war, people would have to develop their military and government characters as well. There would likely be no loss anywhere, especially if other RPs that address other facets of a nation are run as well, such as things that involve religion or art or the environment.

This is a perennial issue with this region that must be addressed simply by not addressing it at all. The desire to police what the members do, be it to lean towards RPing or to lean toward worldbuilding has long plagued the regional leadership, myself included during my time as Ice Empress, and would just create more conflict and disgruntlement as it has in the past. As such, I believe it would be best to just leave everyone to do what pleases them and rely on the fact that we are a collection of some of the best worldbuilders and RPers the subject matter of this region has ever seen to ensure everyone does what the region needs, rather than what some in the region want.

(Aki advocating freedom of the individual? Preposterous!)

[Sabara]

I think we all pretty much agree

[Roden1]

I'm gonna avoid the question about governability, since my current schedule kind of prevents me from RPing too much so it's not like I have much to contribute. However, I did have some observations regarding Christianity in Tiandi.

I understand that this is a region where East Asia is the centre of the world network and that the distance between its "Europe" and its "NAME" regions is more considerable than in our own world. As a result I was wondering how Christianity might evolve. I don't think that real life's division between Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy makes sense in Tiandi and I'd hope it's not used. Protestantism and Orthodoxy to a larger degree are the result of very specific clerico-political conflicts over issues that were more political than theological in nature. The division between WRE and ERE and later between the Romano-Germanic West and the Byzantium resulted in the development of two parallel politicul culture, one where the primacy of Rome was the norm and one where there were several patriarchs who were all subordinate to the Emperor. This won't happen. And much less with Protestantism, which surged from the humanistic Catholicism of Erasmus and its denounce of the Roman corruption and political intrigues. Nor does it make too much sense, imho, to have several Popes, the conditions for an Avignon papacy may not exist in Tiandi.

So, what I was thinking is that we could have a more 'Islamic', if you will, division of Christianity. Because it doesn't make sense to have just one single interpretation, that is simply not the case for any Abrahamic religion. Why Islamic? Because I was thinking of inspiring the division on the much deeper theological issues over the nature of God and the nature of Christ that domination theological debates from the 4th century until the Muslim invasions of the Levant and North Africa. These divisions, like those between Sunni and Shiites and others, will be much deeper than those that separate our Christianity, since they are based on different criteria on a very, very thorny issue, the very nature of the Messiah.

So I was thinking of a triple division between Chalcedonians (so basically Catholics and Orthodoxy in RL, perhaps with various patriarchs, like one per country?) that believes in the Holy Trinity and the nature of Christ was two, human and divine in one person, conceived by Mary. Then there is Monophysitism, which believes that Christ only had one nature, which was either solely divine (extremist position) or both human and divine (more moderate position) as Christ's human nature was absorbed by its divine one. Lastly we could also have Nestorianism. It argues the opposite, stressing the clear-cut distinction between the human Jesus and the divine Logos/Theotokos, and being generally accused of stressing more the human than the divine nature. And we can always include Arianism I suppose.

In any case, based on their very different Christological positions, the churches could evolve in different paths resulting, over time, in much more differentiated theological positions, as well as a certain degree of animosity amongst them.

In our own world, Chalcedonians dominated in Europe and in what we call nowadays the Maghreb, whereas Monophysites were the majority in pre-Islamic Egypt and parts of the Levant, and Nestorians were important in the so-called Assyrian churches, that is, in the eastern fringes of Byzantium, and had spread (considerably) into Persia as well as Arabia and reaching as far as communities in Central Asia but also in India.

I was wondering how that could work out in Tiandi, that is to say, which areas of Tiandi are/were Christians and how they would be split. I would imagine that Roden, Cosenza as well as Friskland and Banba, based on their geographical location and the association between Italy and Cosenza make more sense as Chalcedonian areas, but I don't know how to divide up the rest, especially since I'm not sure as to which parts of Gungju or other continents are Christian.

Btw, on the question of how to have a more bellicose Christian faith with their own fundamentalists, i saw a few posts back call them Crusaders. It's not a bad name, but personally I prefer the term Soldiers of Christ. Sounds more awesome, and less of a rip off.

[Arumdaum]

Haeseon brought up hate groups on irc and his mentioning of yellow hooded robes made me think for a while regarding race in Tiandi.

I think for certain we should have had pseudoscience regarding race and "scientific racism" during the high stages of Sinju imperialism. In regards to how people look, I don't think people from Sinju would ever have called themselves yellow, because East Asians are not at all yellow. And no, don't try to dispute this point.

Sinju is complicated as it stretches highly from north to south - from up in the Arctic Circle down into the Tropics. There would be a wide range of skin complexions and tones, even within a country, with farmers often being very tan from constant outdoor work, while those who spent most of their time indoors would have lighter skin. Attempts to define "race" would probably be strongest in a period where most of Sinju has recently shifted to industrial, manufacturing based economies with fairly large middle classes. Those attempting to define this would most likely mingle with the educated upper-middle and upper classes.

However, perhaps that isn't so important? After all, there is a fairly wide range of skin complexions among those considered "white" IRL as well, and those who aren't considered "white" often have much lighter skin complexions than those who are.

I thought that perhaps back during this period, people from the Center would have attempted to give races color names beyond just skin complexion. Perhaps East Asians would indeed have been the "yellow race" if someone like the Yellow Emperor was also present in Tianqian mythology, and yellow continued to be a color associated with imperial lines. However, this may become problematic if non-Sinic states such as Jeongmi and Fusen try to distance themselves from Tianqi and create their own unique national myth with the rise of nationalism and the idea of self-determination for different ethnic and linguistic groups. Perhaps there could be separate Jeongmic, Fusenic, and Tianqic races, or they could have been considered branches of a greater "yellow race."

But people and society can attempt to reconcile or choose to ignore contradictions in thought.

White people could be the "red race," as they were often referred to as "red barbarians" in China, Japan, and Korea due to the fact that some European sailors had red hair. "Red people" wouldn't correspond exactly to how "white people" is viewed in the United States today (generally doesn't include Middle Easterners or often Latinxs who are white-passing), as Tiandi does not have the same social structure of Earth. People from Sinju, who would be the ones attempting to define races, would not care about things like religious differences which are often the difference between being white or not (Armenians often considered white but Turks are not). Thus Middle Easterners and North Indians would probably be included in definitions of "red people."