Tiandi Big Discussion Thread

[Toishima]

Well, can you do that soon? Not trying to be a pester, but we seriously need to start doing stuff now if we want to kick Tiandi back into action.

I'm not willing to give up on this region yet.

There are other things to do. The school RP is technically still "alive" in a sense and awaiting responses. Or you could start more RPs; I doubt setting up this database at this time will cause much more activity for people beyond the both of us. If they have no time to RP they have no time to write factsheets, after all.

[Arumdaum]

I think we should be using this discussion thread more when possible - most people who joined Tiandi seem to have discovered it simply through exposure, whether through sigs (w/ me posting on NSG a decent amount), or our threads coming up on the side or on or near the front page of various forums.

I did end up changing the password for Tiandi sent it to both Sab and Aki.

One thing I really want to know though: who else here uses Windows and knows how to operate paint.NET? I think having a regularly updated map is something that members enjoy, especially members who have recently been accept but aren't on the map yet, but being mapmaker is one of the most tiring and time-consuming aspects of running this region, haha.

Even if you only have Windows, paint.NET is a pretty good free program, and if you don't know how to use it, and I can help you navigate through it.

I'd love it if there were people able to help me out with it!

Country names: Century Gothic, 10.5
Hanzi: 16

[Toishima]

I can do it on photoshop.

[Arumdaum]

I can do it on photoshop.

Unfortunately, the maps is saved as a .pdn, and I don't know if I can convert it to a different format and send it to you for you to edit, haha, though I would love if that were possible.

Also, some notes, mostly for myself regarding historic civil service examinations and administrative divisions in Jeongmi:

Village/Town
County
Prefecture
Province
Region
Nation

Civil service examinations should have started at the county level, with taking the next test only possible through passing the previous level. Those who excelled in the national examinations taken in the capital would have qualified for another exam taken within the Imperial Palace itself. De facto, it should have been possible to buy yourself lower-level degrees equivalent to passing an exam in order to take the next one, though the Imperial Court would have largely ineffectively attempted to stomp this out several times, with local officials (who profit off of this) resisting such attempts.

Attempts at standardizing even lower-level exams should have taken place beginning either in the late Kim or Choe dynasties.

I think this makes introducing a very low-level test that only provides basic voting rights for certain positions and decisions easier - this is how I plan on having democracy slowly introduced among Sinju and Sinju settler states in the late modern era, similar to how voting rights in Britain and the US initially had property requirements.

Considering, however, that many of us wouldn't have been feudal societies in the preceding period (with the possible exception of... Aki? Raj?), and a career in government (provided by studying for and passing examinations) being much more prestigious than in the West, I don't think land-ownership requirements would really have been that big of a deal.

I could be wrong, but I don't really know, haha. I think what I've been using however is pretty interesting. There's also that increasing urbanization and commercialization would result in educated, wealthy merchants who don't really own much land feeling left out of the process, despite many peasant farmers probably qualifying.

also while thinking about this i just realized that "royal" is sort of like the french word for king "roi" and that they are related and that's probably why the japanese imperial family is called the imperial family and not the royal family cuz the emperor of japan is an emperor not a king wow

[Sabara]

We need a thread for the Sinju Union.

[Sabara]

Ok so our post-Eulhae history needs to be fleshed out much, much more.

Current thoughts established on IRC:
-Abkhaila could act as a large communist power to incite a power struggle between Sinju and the peripheral countries.
-Hukoq+Penghu+Gaoxiong+Coenggoz are all still imperial, non-democratic powers that align with the Contingents.
-They are all opportunistically invaded by Abkhaila when the war starts to turn south for the Contingents, resulting in their absorption into a communist bloc.
-Post-Eulhae politics are dominated by a cold-war between the newly integrated Sinju Union and Abkhaila + its allies.

Thoughts?

[Arumdaum]

Sinju Union (神洲聯合)

Members: Pretty much all of Jungju north of the tropics and nearby islands; most of whatever is called Sinju

Sinju people are tired of extreme nationalism following Eulhae and other devastating wars - many people see Sinju integration as a way to avoid future conflicts.

1944 - Sinju University (神洲大學院大學) is set up as an elite institution for graduates of separate Sinju countries to study together.
1948 - Sinju Coal and Steel Community founded
1955 - Sinju Economic Community founded
1970 - No Border Checks Area formed (I'm sure it'll sound better when using Chinese characters lol)
1995 - Member-states begin adopting the Sinju won/en/yuan (圓) as a common currency
^ The characters presently used in China and Japan to denote yuan and yen are simplifications of the above character

I want to do something that isn't too much like the EU but coal and steel are important for manufacturing (which is the most important thing at this time) and I can't really think of anything else. However, there are also problems if Aki isn't included in this; it might seem as if Jeongmi and Meisaan are simply becoming allied again at the expense of Akitsukuni.

I'd love to see Aki's input on this since she's going to be a very important aspect in the development of the SU.

Should Abkailha have had a communist revolution? I think it's a good idea.

We also really need to redevelop Eulhae, haha.

Also, a reminder that NPCs can be developed by anyone, not just whoever created it.

[Sabara]

-snip-

I like the timeline. Should we have a period where we begin accepting a lot of poorer nations? Also what should the poor-rich divide look like in Sinju? Central vs. Peripheral, with Mei+Jeong+Hasu+Paiguok being the wealthiest?

[Arumdaum]

-snip-

I like the timeline. Should we have a period where we begin accepting a lot of poorer nations? Also what should the poor-rich divide look like in Sinju? Central vs. Peripheral, with Mei+Jeong+Hasu+Paiguok being the wealthiest?

I think we should accept poorer nations maybe in the late 90s or 2000s? It's harder to incorporate them with a currency union. I think countries should be getting a lot poorer once we hit Coenggoz and Penghu; perhaps southern and parts of western Sinju are poorer?

Also, to ucv, I don't see how Nomyokuni can considered progressive at all if the monarchy holds an executive position, feudalism still persists (which itself raises the question of how the nation is wealthy at all), the monarchy is quasi-divine, and 3/8s of the unicameral legislature are unelected feudal lords.

That all sounds pretty reactionary to me. I'm unsure of how such a government would enact sweeping progressive changes either in order for it to have a progressive reputation.

[Intermountain States]

One thing I felt we should do is to rename the religions from this world. It makes no sense to call Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. for its real world name. For one, the Abrahamic religions are based on prophets from Yahweh/Allah/God with the creation of a holy land. I don't think we have Jerusalem so we should recreate the lore based on our religions, just like what Games Workshop did with their Empire religion or GRR Martin creating the Red God or the Faith of the Seven.

[Gaoxiong]

I have been thinking about moving Gaoxiong north. If it's going to remain wealthy (Arum said this on IRC), then it shouldn't be located in the more poorer part of Sinju. That would mean giving up my "Taiwanese" climate, but at this point Gaoxiong has diverged a lot from that RL country. There are no aborigines in Gaoxiong, and the Tianqian population speaks Mandarin. (in RL Hokkien and Hakka in addition to Mandarin are spoken) I think Behtang has more Taiwanese influences.

Also, what should Gaoxiong's role in the Sinju Union be? I think that it could be our Belgium/Netherlands equivalent.

[Arumdaum]

Developing history for Cengui - I think Sab can help a lot since he's a neighbor.

Xi (喜) dynasty: 1532 - 1896

The victory of anti-monarchist candidates in the 1896 election led to a new constitution and the establishment of the Republic of Cengui. Cengui sided with the Allies in the Eulhae War, providing support to Meisaan in fear that it would be the next target of Akitsukuni and other Contingents.

I also think the core of Tianqi should have been around Paiuguok, Cengui, and southern Meisaan. The final remnants of Tianqi could have been somewhere there before it finally ended up being extinguished.

War between Jeong-Mei union and Cengui in early-mid 1400s that heavily taxes resources of Meisaan, which incites Meisaan's war of independence from me?

One thing I felt we should do is to rename the religions from this world. It makes no sense to call Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Hinduism, etc. for its real world name. For one, the Abrahamic religions are based on prophets from Yahweh/Allah/God with the creation of a holy land. I don't think we have Jerusalem so we should recreate the lore based on our religions, just like what Games Workshop did with their Empire religion or GRR Martin creating the Red God or the Faith of the Seven.

Yeah, things'll definitely be different from the real world. I think for now we're just referring to it as Buddhism/Christianity/Islam/etc. mostly because we're being lazy. We need to come up with stories on how these belief systems originated.

I have been thinking about moving Gaoxiong north. If it's going to remain wealthy (Arum said this on IRC), then it shouldn't be located in the more poorer part of Sinju. That would mean giving up my "Taiwanese" climate, but at this point Gaoxiong has diverged a lot from that RL country. There are no aborigines in Gaoxiong, and the Tianqian population speaks Mandarin. (in RL Hokkien and Hakka in addition to Mandarin are spoken) I think Behtang has more Taiwanese influences.

Also, what should Gaoxiong's role in the Sinju Union be? I think that it could be our Belgium/Netherlands equivalent.

Yeah, I think it'd be great if Gao played such a role! I don't mind you staying in your spot and staying wealthy, though. It hasn't really been decided whether that part of Sinju is going to be poorer yet.

[Gaoxiong]

Huan (喜) dynasty: 1532 - 1896

Wrong character.

喜 is "xi" in pinyin. Did you get "huan" from 「喜歡」?

Yeah, I think it'd be great if Gao played such a role! I don't mind you staying in your spot and staying wealthy, though. It hasn't really been decided whether that part of Sinju is going to be poorer yet.

Ok, for now I'll be staying in my location.

[Arumdaum]

Huan (喜) dynasty: 1532 - 1896

Wrong character.

喜 is "xi" in pinyin. Did you get "huan" from 「喜歡」?

Yeah, I think it'd be great if Gao played such a role! I don't mind you staying in your spot and staying wealthy, though. It hasn't really been decided whether that part of Sinju is going to be poorer yet.

Ok, for now I'll be staying in my location.

OH MY GOD HAHA I KNEW THAT WOW JS I KNOW BOTH OF THOSE CHARACTERS SIMPLY BRAINFART REALLY BUT I ALWAYS ASSOCIATE THEM TOGETHER BC 喜歡 I MEANT TO PUT "XI" DYNASTY WHOOPS WHHOPS

[Arumdaum]

翟子/적자/Jeokja/Dizi/Tekishi

Jeokism??

This guy'll be our Confucius figure. Jeok means "enemy" in Korean though and "teki" also means "enemy" in Japanese... might be sort of weird. The first character means "pheasant."

He should have lived before Tianqi became a great empire. His teachings for the most part should be the same. Respect and adherence to hierarchy, secular affairs more important, virtue through education, yada yada...

[Arumdaum]

Also, Deshret, I don't mind if you post here as Old Tyrannia instead if that's more comfortable for you.

I'm very interested in fleshing out history with you, considering I would have been one of the foreign powers imposing unequal treaties on you, interested especially in the creation of a canal. Have you made an IIWiki page for it yet?

[Daeseong]

Deshret and Dae friendship against evil imperialism 5ever.

[Sabara]

Developing history for Cengui - I think Sab can help a lot since he's a neighbor.

Cengui is Sichuanese, correct?

I think the capital of Tianqi should be in Paiuguok.

[Arumdaum]

Developing history for Cengui - I think Sab can help a lot since he's a neighbor.

Cengui is Sichuanese, correct?

I think the capital of Tianqi should be in Paiuguok.

Yes, it's Sichuanese.

And yeah! I think that would be great. Paiuguok is Fuzhounese for those who don't know.

[Toishima]

On the contrary, I think it would be wonderful if the Sinju Union initially appeared to be, or even was intended to be, an anti-Akitsukuni bloc. Recall that after the Eulhae War, the Empire essentially became a highly unpredictable, unstable yet exceedingly well armed state right next to Sinju which constantly rotated between strong military and weak civilian regimes, most of which were right wing. It was only in the late 80s and 90s that Akitsukuni opened up to trade, beginning a China-like boom.

Furthermore, we already established long ago that some of the main reasons tensions still existed between Akitsukuni and everyone despite being in the Sinju Union is that they were just very uncooperative and refused to enact many SU policies that did not directly benefit them, such as refusing to adopt the Sinju currency etc.

I believe that Akitsukuni's membership in the Sinju Union was primarily to convenience themselves, while the initial SU members possibly admitted them because they believed their great enemies had finally turned good... Proven wrong late last year, of course.

Better discussion to follow. Currently riding a SAF rover. I really love the Ford Everest haha

[New Alotos]

Something I am thinking of doing is having Adango be a sort of religious supernational federation of sorts. And having that plotline develop overtime.

[Arumdaum]

On the contrary, I think it would be wonderful if the Sinju Union initially appeared to be, or even was intended to be, an anti-Akitsukuni bloc. Recall that after the Eulhae War, the Empire essentially became a highly unpredictable, unstable yet exceedingly well armed state right next to Sinju which constantly rotated between strong military and weak civilian regimes, most of which were right wing. It was only in the late 80s and 90s that Akitsukuni opened up to trade, beginning a China-like boom.

Furthermore, we already established long ago that some of the main reasons tensions still existed between Akitsukuni and everyone despite being in the Sinju Union is that they were just very uncooperative and refused to enact many SU policies that did not directly benefit them, such as refusing to adopt the Sinju currency etc.

I believe that Akitsukuni's membership in the Sinju Union was primarily to convenience themselves, while the initial SU members possibly admitted them because they believed their great enemies had finally turned good... Proven wrong late last year, of course.

Better discussion to follow. Currently riding a SAF rover. I really love the Ford Everest haha

Hm...

I mean, I guess I wouldn't mind that. We'd still be making amends with the other Contingent powers in Sinju, even if Akitsukuni isn't in on it. I was hoping that the SU would be primarily founded with the goal of Sinju integration, though perhaps it could also have had a secondary goal of isolating Akitsukuni from the rest of Sinju.

Nice~ lol is someone driving you?

Something I am thinking of doing is having Adango be a sort of religious supernational federation of sorts. And having that plotline develop overtime.

Can you explain more?

Also, now that we don't have Qinyue and Penghu has CTEd, I think it'd be nice to have a Putonghua-speaking nation around apart from Gao. I don't think it should be too hard to find someone who wants to make such a nation, considering that most Chinese nations in NS solely use Putonghua.

This is mostly since it'd be easier finding someone for this kind of nation - also, it'd be nice having another human player in Sinju.

[Toishima]

These are my ideas, based on what is above and what history I have created for Akitsukuni so far:

After the Eulhae War ends on a ceasefire, Tsukiyama and her loyalist government essentially run Akitsukuni into the ground trying to prepare for the final battle, creating a siege mentality that never really goes away. While the Sinju Allies shift their concentration towards communist Abkhaila, Akitsukuni remains a dangerous, unstable and well-armed state right next to them. Note that at this point the Sinju Allies could still be trying to keep Akitsukuni down and out, similar to the situation with the Axis states after World War 2, more so because technically the war isn't even over.

In 1953, Nariakira Okabe coups Tsukiyama's government and he takes over. One of his first acts is to sign a peace treaty formally ending the Eulhae War. Okabe's policies aim to reopen Akitsukuni and his dictatorship is what laid the foundation for the slow and stead development of the Empire before the 1990s came around, allowing Akitsukuni in the mid/later-mid-20th century to be similar to the Soviet Union compared to the West in terms of advancement.

The sudden reopening of Akitsukuni and their new love of and expansion into the Third World markets (because the Sinju Allies had already cornered the developed and mid-developing world, perhaps) could possibly lead to the Sinju Economic Community being founded to counter this and the communists. Of course, Akitsukuni would then retaliate with their CPSDC, though CPSDC has more overtly military goals and a more extreme anti-communist agenda.

I do not see Akitsukuni joining the Sinju Union any time before 1991, because they were continuously rotating governments and I doubt the mainland wanted anything to do with them as a major economic and military competitor. In 1991, Watanabe (who doesn't even have a first name yet lol) does Gaige Kaifang reforms, and along with aggressive protectionism and economic actions causes Akitsukuni to achieve a China-style boom that launches it into the first world and amongst the top 10 economies.

From here, I propose that Akitsukuni's membership into the Sinju Union was a very controversial action that the Akitsukunese leadership were using purely to attain more money and political leverage. Meisaan and Jeongmi may have believed the Empire had "turned good" or that they could work together to all be rich, or the idealistic reach for Sinju Integration (or something). Ultimately Akitsukuni would only accept and implement the Sinju Union policies that could directly benefit itself. The shared Sinju Currency would not be adopted by Akitsukuni, for example, because the Imperial En was (and may still be today) kept artificially low. After threats from the others, they maybe grudgingly implemented a fixed exchange rate as a compromise.

All these shenanigans would ultimately lead to the tensions that cause the 2015 conflict, of course, and Akitsukuni's current suspension (which has really been long on the way).

About the rover, lol of course, I do not know how to drive.

[Arumdaum]

These are my ideas, based on what is above and what history I have created for Akitsukuni so far:

After the Eulhae War ends on a ceasefire, Tsukiyama and her loyalist government essentially run Akitsukuni into the ground trying to prepare for the final battle, creating a siege mentality that never really goes away. While the Sinju Allies shift their concentration towards communist Abkhaila, Akitsukuni remains a dangerous, unstable and well-armed state right next to them. Note that at this point the Sinju Allies could still be trying to keep Akitsukuni down and out, similar to the situation with the Axis states after World War 2, more so because technically the war isn't even over.

In 1953, Nariakira Okabe coups Tsukiyama's government and he takes over. One of his first acts is to sign a peace treaty formally ending the Eulhae War. Okabe's policies aim to reopen Akitsukuni and his dictatorship is what laid the foundation for the slow and stead development of the Empire before the 1990s came around, allowing Akitsukuni in the mid/later-mid-20th century to be similar to the Soviet Union compared to the West in terms of advancement.

The sudden reopening of Akitsukuni and their new love of and expansion into the Third World markets (because the Sinju Allies had already cornered the developed and mid-developing world, perhaps) could possibly lead to the Sinju Economic Community being founded to counter this and the communists. Of course, Akitsukuni would then retaliate with their CPSDC, though CPSDC has more overtly military goals and a more extreme anti-communist agenda.

I do not see Akitsukuni joining the Sinju Union any time before 1991, because they were continuously rotating governments and I doubt the mainland wanted anything to do with them as a major economic and military competitor. In 1991, Watanabe (who doesn't even have a first name yet lol) does Gaige Kaifang reforms, and along with aggressive protectionism and economic actions causes Akitsukuni to achieve a China-style boom that launches it into the first world and amongst the top 10 economies.

From here, I propose that Akitsukuni's membership into the Sinju Union was a very controversial action that the Akitsukunese leadership were using purely to attain more money and political leverage. Meisaan and Jeongmi may have believed the Empire had "turned good" or that they could work together to all be rich, or the idealistic reach for Sinju Integration (or something). Ultimately Akitsukuni would only accept and implement the Sinju Union policies that could directly benefit itself. The shared Sinju Currency would not be adopted by Akitsukuni, for example, because the Imperial En was (and may still be today) kept artificially low. After threats from the others, they maybe grudgingly implemented a fixed exchange rate as a compromise.

All these shenanigans would ultimately lead to the tensions that cause the 2015 conflict, of course, and Akitsukuni's current suspension (which has really been long on the way).

About the rover, lol of course, I do not know how to drive.

Wait, question - what do you plan on Akitsukuni's modern stats being? I think we discussed you making new stats with lower GDP per capitas due to new history, haha, but I don't think you ever made a new app for it.

[Toishima]

Wait, question - what do you plan on Akitsukuni's modern stats being? I think we discussed you making new stats with lower GDP per capitas due to new history, haha, but I don't think you ever made a new app for it.

I never did because I haven't made the new stats yet. I don't want to be too rich, yet I don't want to be too poor either (and there are no undeveloped Chosen and New Territories to handwave off the income inequality and more). I'll come up with something ASAP.

Interestingly, few people actually know it but much of rural Japan is still in the 1970s. Lol.