DESERT LION 14 OOC [CLOSED]

[Servinta]

Desert Lion 14 (combat training exercise)

"What makes the desert such a tough environment for war is that the heat and lack of water can be more deadly than the enemy."

Several different armed forces from the nations abroad will be training together in the deserts of the Middle Eastern Union. Said forces are from various backgrounds and branches of their respective countries but will be working in unison with foreign forces to better train for any future conflicts they may experience.

This massive field exercise while requiring large amounts of resources and working man-hours will benefit each party nation as they will be able to test out new tactics and refine age old strategies.This will also expose their forces to the foreign tactics and doctrines of their fellow nations who will either allow them to train along with them as partners or will show them through Opfor exercises against their own forces,All nations will be allowed to participate.Other nations who are not interested in combat will be allowed to send observers and training coaches to both observe and critique the participants as they go through the exercise.

Participants shall mobilize their forces from their respective country, and send them over to the Joint Slavic Training Center (or JSTC) which has an adjoining airfield and landing pad for receiving these forces. The forces can be expected to serve for six months at the JSTC as they train for a total of over 2,000 hours in preparation for various deployments to desert regions of the world.

The military exercise "Desert Lion 14" will entail the employment of military resources in training for desert operations, exploring the effects of warfare in the arid environment of the desert and testing each nations strategies without the actual dangers of real combat.The Federation of Servinta has elected to lead the efforts in this years operation and the friendly communist nation of The United Socialist States of The Middle Eastern Union (USSMEU) has volunteered to host "Desert Lion 14" within its borders.

Notices:

• All forces and personal will be arriving and living in the Joint Slavic Training Center base camp for the duration of this exercise. (Military Police will patrol the base to prevent any conflicts among the troops their.)
  
• CBRN warfare is explicitly prohibited. (classes will be given by trainers but no weapons shall be used during the exercise.)
  
• While live ammunition will be used for firing range and weapon effect tests it will be securely stored at JSTC base,combat exercises will use specialized laser adapters for infantry weapons and paint ordinance for heavy weapons and vehicles.
  
• While provisions will be provided by the Servintan logistics corps all nations must bring emergency medical,food and water supplies in case of unexpected events.
  
• The nearby (USSMEU) experimental weapons laboratory will be off limits to all personal and is protected by a marked minefield and automatic sentry turrets.

Location:Arabian Desert,USSMEU territory

Clean Middle Town Map

http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/ay101802204this-photo-relea.jpg

Marked Middle Town Map (for better description of movements)

http://i.imgur.com/qdJFrFO.jpg

"Middle Town" Satellite linked map (use for urban combat and engagements in and around the city)

If possible draw your forces moments on this map using a paint editor and TG me the image link by uploading it toImgur

Legend:
Green:Non-exercise Joint Slavic Training Center (JSTC) base camp.
Yellow:Experimental weapons laboratory (off limits to all personal)
Red:OPFOR territory
Blue:BULFOR territory
Dots:Represent base camp of specified faction

Objective:capture enemy exercise base camp before end of Phase 6.

Schedule:

Day 1:Individual Base Camp setup,Communications setup
Phase 1:Urban Exercise
Phase 2:Armored maneuvers
Phase 3:Aviation coordination exercise
Phase 4:Open defensive exercise
Phase 5:Open offensive maneuvers
Phase 6:Convoy/Ambush exercise

Participation:

Overseeing nations:
The Federation of Servinta OP,OPFOR Leader
Chilokver Co-OP
The Tsardom of EsteniaBLUFOR Leader

Host Nation:
The United Socialist States of The Middle Eastern Union

Nations contributing combat forces to the exercise:

Port Victor
The United Socialist States of The Middle Eastern Union
200 Officers and 500 Marines, 100 up-armored HMMWV, 24 T-90s, 30 M1A2 TUSKS, 2 MLRS, 10 Su-27s, 5 AH-64Ds

• BLUFOR:
  The Tsardom of Estenia Leader of BLUFOR
  7.500 Infantry [1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Battallions of Desert Operations of Estenia] 1.500 Vehicles [1 and 10th Armoured divisions of Desert Operations]
  The People's Union of Versail (urban infantry combat training)
  1st Infantry assault company [1,200 troop's],27th Infantry company [1,200 troop's],39th infantry company [1,200 troop's],45th Infantry company [1,200 troop's],67th infantry company [1,200 troop's],75th Urban combat company [1,200 troop's],101st Urban combat company [1,200 troop's]
  The Pimphood of Pimps Inc
  5,500 Regular Infantry and 300 Special Ops, 200 Humvees, 130 IVF/APC, 90 Leopard Tanks,200 Artillery pieces,20 helicopters
  Port Victor Special privileges
  8,050 troops,100 snipers (not included in the troops spot),17 attack helicopters,50 T-90s,30 BTRs
  Stasnov
  [33rd Mechanised Regiment]2,000 men,30 Tanks (mostly T-90 variants but with some T-80s and T-72s too),120 APCs/IFVs (BMP-3s, BMP-2s, BTR-90s, BTR-80s),200 Trucks (Ural-43206s and KamAZ Typhoons),5 BMPTs,3 TOS-1 Buratinos,5 9K22 Tunguskas,6 Nona SVKs,20 Gaz Tigrs
  [89th Helicopter Attack Wing] 8 Mi-24Vs,9 Ka-52s,5 Mi-17s,8 Ka-60s
  Military Lands of the Scottish PeopleSpecial privileges
  205 Humvee's,8,000 Infantry,12 helicopters,450 Large, Portable Mortar units.
  
• OPFOR:
  The Federation of Servinta Leader of OPFOR,(Note:not all my forces shall be taking part in combatant exercises)
  60 aircraft [30th,24th,27th attack squadrons],30 transports [8th air supply],350 tanks [10th,7th Armored],5,000 [76th infantry ],30 helicopters [9th helicopter squadron].
  Chilokver
  8000 infantry, 250 tanks, 400 assorted supply vehicles, 360 APCs, 25 attack helicopters, 125 artillery, 90 missile launchers.
  New Celisia
  22nd Advanced Infantry Battalion (600x Advanced Infantry (New Celisian Fleet Strike), 800x Support Personnel, 100x Combat Vehicle 90's, 35x M1128 Mobile Gun Systems, 15x RSOV, 5x Leopard 2A8, 2x Logistics Vehicle Systems, 200x MTVR.)
  38th Advanced Infantry Battalion (600x Advanced Infantry (New Celisian Fleet Strike), 800x Support Personnel, 100x Combat Vehicle 90's, 35x M1128 Mobile Gun Systems, 15x RSOV, 5x Leopard 2A8, 2x Logistics Vehicle Systems, 200x MTVR.)
  2nd Armoured Infantry Battalion (240x Advanced Infantry (New Celisian Fleet Strike), 800x Support Personnel, 40x Combat Vehicle 90's, 10x M1128 Mobile Gun Systems, 5x RSOV, 150x Leopard 2A8, 2x Logistics Vehicle Systems, 200x MTVR.)
  8th Armoured Infantry Battalion (240x Advanced Infantry (New Celisian Fleet Strike), 800x Support Personnel, 40x Combat Vehicle 90's, 10x M1128 Mobile Gun Systems, 5x RSOV, 150x Leopard 2A8, 2x Logistics Vehicle Systems, 200x MTVR.)
  Rezua (Training for artillery,helicopter and survival)
  7,000 troops,100 snipers (not included in the troops spot),20 attack helicopters,50 T-90s,30 BTRs
  Irav
  2,300 men infantry, 230 tanks and 23 helicopters.
• Nations contributing training personal:
  The United Regions Helicopter and infantry training (airfield and eastern "Middle town" open for practice)
  100 Elite Light Infantry, 10 Special Forces , 28 cre members2 Apaches, 2 Little Birds. 4 V-22 Ospreys, 2 black hawks
  Federación Lópeziano de Gran Cuscatlan(Class - The Way of Fear: Strategy and tactics of modern terrorists.)(conference hall in JSTC is provided)
  4 training personal
• Nations sending observing personal:
  The Holy Atheist Empire of Dracolich
  Security squad of 40 soldiers, Lieutenant General Steven Miller, Vice Marshal Caroline Xu, Dr. Alfonse Egbert, Pr. Minho Oh.
  Cyllea Survival and evasion (Northern area open for survival and escape courses)
  8th Special Operations Unit (240 personnel), 2nd Special Operations Unit (180 personnel)

"Desert Lion 14" Combatant Application (Open to all)

Code: Select all

Nation’s Name:
Commanding Officer of the task force:
Deployed military task force number(max forces are capped at 10,000 infantry,5,000 vehicles please don't get near those numbers):
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify):
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify):
Is there a preference to BLUFOR or OPFOR Y/N (if so specify):
RP Example:

"Desert Lion 14" Observer Application [Entails personal to observe,learn about and evaluate the combatants.] (OPEN TO ALL,lots of first person IC)

Code: Select all

Nation’s Name:
Commanding Officer of the observing forces:
Training classes of interest (specify class name) 
[ ] Armoured:
[ ] Infantry: 
[ ] Helicopter: 
[ ] Artillery:
[ ] CBRN:
[ ] Survival and evasion:
[ ] Desert Operations:
[ ] Other/please explain:
Deployed military task force number(specify unit types,max forces are capped at 500 personal):
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify):

Note:Vehicles,Helicopters and observation aircraft will be provided for the observers


"Desert Lion 14" Trainer Application [Entails personal to train forces while not in exercise environment.] (OPEN TO ALL,lots of first person IC)

Code: Select all

Nation’s Name: 
Commanding Officer of the coach forces:
Training forces classes (specify class name) 
[ ] Armoured:
[ ] Infantry:
[ ] Helicopter:
[ ] Artillery:
[ ] CBRN:
[ ] Survival and evasion:
[ ] Desert Operations:
[ ] Other/please explain:
Deployed military task force number(specify unit types,max forces are capped at 500 personal):
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify):
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify):

Note:Classrooms will be provided for trainers

OOC:
1. No Godmodding
2. No power-playing
3. No Flaming
4. No Spamming
5. No One-liners
6. No Trolling
7. Keep it non-lethal,all weapons fire paint rounds (No posting of blood and gore everywhere,at least for the exercise part of this RP)
8. If you lose at an exercise, accept it.(its not like your going to lose any troops or something )
9. If you don't follow these rules, your kicked out.
10. Listen to what the OP and the Co-OP's (Servinta and Chilokver) have to say.
11. NO. NUKES. ALLOWED. (or any bomb that is as powerful)
12. OP and Co-OP will determine the match ups between the OPFOR and BLUFOR forces and their exercise parameters.
13. Be realistic (the dragon did not flip his tank upside down)
14. Post losses (people would like to know if their attacks were effective)
15. No one likes a number-wanker
16. This will become an international incident at a determined point in the RP. (you'll find it won't be an exercise anymore.)

These rules are subject to change on my discretion.

Combat positions are now open and all reasonable applications will be accepted.

IC:https://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=313107

[Estenia]

Nation’s Name: The Tsardom of Estenia
Commanding Officer of the task force: Tsar Filipp IV
Required Forces: choose one or more of the following as your forces main interest for training:
[x] Armoured:
[x] Infantry:
[x] Helicopter:
[x] Artillery:
[x] CBRN:
[x] Survival and evasion:
[x] Desert Operations:
[ ] Other/please explain:
Deployed military task force number(max forces are capped at 10,000 infantry,5,000 vehicles please don't get near those numbers): 7.500 Infantry (1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th Battallions of Desert Operations of Estenia) 1.500 Vehicles (1 and 10th Armoured divisons of Desert Operations)
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify): No
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify): Yes, all my forces that I send are special forces as Estenia has a special Team for desert operations
Is there a preference to BLUFOR or OPFOR Y/N (if so specify): BLUFOR and leading it as I am a founder of the alliance
RP Example: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=303118&p=20787364&hilit=Philip#p20787364

[Servinta]

Of course you are accepted

and leader of BLUFOR you are

[Estenia]

Of course you are accepted

and leader of BLUFOR you are

And you are the OPFOR leader from now on and before we start we will give hands and take a minimap to sign the areas of control after the attacks and such.

[Servinta]

got you covered just let me put in the imgur

[Estenia]

got you covered just let me put in the imgur

Ok.

[Servinta]

there we go

[Military Lands of the Scottish People]

Tag.

[Estenia]

there we go

Phase one will take place in the city nearby, right?

[Servinta]

Tag.

Oh hi there

[Chilokver]

Nation’s Name:
Commanding Officer of the task force:
Required Forces: choose one or more of the following as your forces main interest for training:
[X] Armoured:
[X] Infantry:
[X] Helicopter:
[X] Artillery:
[X] CBRN:
[X] Survival and evasion:
[X] Desert Operations:
[X] Other/please explain: Promote inter-alliance goodwill. (OOCly, I'm interested in the international incident.)
Deployed military task force number(max forces are capped at 10,000 infantry,5,000 vehicles please don't get near those numbers): 8000 infantry, 250 tanks, 400 assorted supply vehicles, 360 APCs, 25 attack helicopters, 125 artillery, 90 missile launchers.
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify): Chilokverian equipment and systems are different to most other systems and will require adaptations.
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify): Specialist as in?
Is there a preference to BLUFOR or OPFOR Y/N (if so specify): No.
RP Example: You know me.

Can I Co-OP?

[Servinta]

there we go

Phase one will take place in the city nearby, right?

No phase one will be the forces setting up their base camps in their territory and establishing defenses around it

The point of the Exercises will be to take the base camp at the territories center.

[Estenia]

Nation’s Name:
Commanding Officer of the task force:
Required Forces: choose one or more of the following as your forces main interest for training:
[X] Armoured:
[X] Infantry:
[X] Helicopter:
[X] Artillery:
[X] CBRN:
[X] Survival and evasion:
[X] Desert Operations:
[X] Other/please explain: Promote inter-alliance goodwill. (OOCly, I'm interested in the international incident.)
Deployed military task force number(max forces are capped at 10,000 infantry,5,000 vehicles please don't get near those numbers): 8000 infantry, 250 tanks, 400 assorted supply vehicles, 360 APCs, 25 attack helicopters, 125 artillery, 90 missile launchers.
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify): Chilokverian equipment and systems are different to most other systems and will require adaptations.
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify): Specialist as in?
Is there a preference to BLUFOR or OPFOR Y/N (if so specify): No.
RP Example: You know me.

Can I Co-OP?

Accepted although an RP sample is preffered. Can you give me a link to one of yor RP's?

[Servinta]

Nation’s Name:
Commanding Officer of the task force:
Required Forces: choose one or more of the following as your forces main interest for training:
[X] Armoured:
[X] Infantry:
[X] Helicopter:
[X] Artillery:
[X] CBRN:
[X] Survival and evasion:
[X] Desert Operations:
[X] Other/please explain: Promote inter-alliance goodwill. (OOCly, I'm interested in the international incident.)
Deployed military task force number(max forces are capped at 10,000 infantry,5,000 vehicles please don't get near those numbers): 8000 infantry, 250 tanks, 400 assorted supply vehicles, 360 APCs, 25 attack helicopters, 125 artillery, 90 missile launchers.
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify): Chilokverian equipment and systems are different to most other systems and will require adaptations.
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify): Specialist as in?
Is there a preference to BLUFOR or OPFOR Y/N (if so specify): No.
RP Example: You know me.

Can I Co-OP?

Accepted but put in an CO ,specialist as in special forces or weird units like cavalry (it happens),Don't talk about the incident

[Servinta]

Nation’s Name:
Commanding Officer of the task force:
Required Forces: choose one or more of the following as your forces main interest for training:
[X] Armoured:
[X] Infantry:
[X] Helicopter:
[X] Artillery:
[X] CBRN:
[X] Survival and evasion:
[X] Desert Operations:
[X] Other/please explain: Promote inter-alliance goodwill. (OOCly, I'm interested in the international incident.)
Deployed military task force number(max forces are capped at 10,000 infantry,5,000 vehicles please don't get near those numbers): 8000 infantry, 250 tanks, 400 assorted supply vehicles, 360 APCs, 25 attack helicopters, 125 artillery, 90 missile launchers.
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify): Chilokverian equipment and systems are different to most other systems and will require adaptations.
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify): Specialist as in?
Is there a preference to BLUFOR or OPFOR Y/N (if so specify): No.
RP Example: You know me.

Can I Co-OP?

Accepted although an RP sample is preffered. Can you give me a link to one of yor RP's?

Yeah RP example to

and if its good ill make you Co-OP

[Estenia]

Accepted although an RP sample is preffered. Can you give me a link to one of yor RP's?

Yeah RP example to

and if its good ill make you Co-OP

But aren't I already one Co-OP? Chilokver, give us your best RP to become a Co-OP.

[Servinta]

Yeah RP example to

and if its good ill make you Co-OP

But aren't I already one Co-OP? Chilokver, give us your best RP to become a Co-OP.

your still the blue force leader,less for you to worry about. (more capability for management)

[Dracolich]

Can you tell me more about the observer position?
I'm imagining it being a group of officers watching and taking notes of what other nations do during their exercises, is that about right?

[Versail]

Nation’s Name: The People's Union of Versail.
Commanding Officer of the task force: General Jerry Hall.
Required Forces: choose one or more of the following as your forces main interest for training:
[ ] Armoured:
[x] Infantry:
[ ] Helicopter:
[ ] Artillery:
[ ] CBRN:
[ ] Survival and evasion:
[ ] Desert Operations:
[ ] Other/please explain:
Deployed military task force number(max forces are capped at 10,000 infantry,5,000 vehicles please don't get near those numbers): 1st Infantry assault company ( 1,200 troop's), 45th Infantry company (1,200 troop's), 75th Urban combat company (1,200 troop's).
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify): no.
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify): Yes the 75th Urban combat company.
Is there a preference to BLUFOR or OPFOR Y/N (if so specify): negitive.
RP Example:http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=21027568#p21027568
I am trying to improve my RP skills.

[Chilokver]

Yeah RP example to

and if its good ill make you Co-OP

But aren't I already one Co-OP? Chilokver, give us your best RP to become a Co-OP.

Challenge accepted.

The smell of ozone was heavy in the air and flashes of lightning and claps thunder could be heard far off in the distance as the 234 personnel at Gallus Airbase scrambled under the bright lights to prep all 62 aircraft in time for Operation Knockout. It was a race against time to get them into the air before the storm hit. Absolute chaos ensued as trucksstreaked around the base fueling them avgas and racks of Mark II COMA bombs were loaded on. Finally twenty minutes later, as the first drops of rain began to fall, they were ready to go. Display screens lit up on all the aircraft lined up on the runway. Each aircraft's 8 pulsejets's ignited with a powerful shockwave and all 62 bombers tore down the runway with a mighty roar. After reaching 80,000 feet they accelerated to Mach 6.47 and streaked over the dark stormy ocean towards Civilana .

Although they had taken off late at night in Chilokver, as they approached Civilana, the first few rays of sunlight flashed over the horizon and lit up the clouds in a brilliant display of red and orange. Commander Frank Federico gestured his hand towards the comms button and a channel was opened up to the Iravian forces.

'Commander Frank Federico of the Chilokver Air force here. Do we have clearance for Operation Knockout?'

[Estenia]

But aren't I already one Co-OP? Chilokver, give us your best RP to become a Co-OP.

Challenge accepted.

The smell of ozone was heavy in the air and flashes of lightning and claps thunder could be heard far off in the distance as the 234 personnel at Gallus Airbase scrambled under the bright lights to prep all 62 aircraft in time for Operation Knockout. It was a race against time to get them into the air before the storm hit. Absolute chaos ensued as trucksstreaked around the base fueling them avgas and racks of Mark II COMA bombs were loaded on. Finally twenty minutes later, as the first drops of rain began to fall, they were ready to go. Display screens lit up on all the aircraft lined up on the runway. Each aircraft's 8 pulsejets's ignited with a powerful shockwave and all 62 bombers tore down the runway with a mighty roar. After reaching 80,000 feet they accelerated to Mach 6.47 and streaked over the dark stormy ocean towards Civilana .

Although they had taken off late at night in Chilokver, as they approached Civilana, the first few rays of sunlight flashed over the horizon and lit up the clouds in a brilliant display of red and orange. Commander Frank Federico gestured his hand towards the comms button and a channel was opened up to the Iravian forces.

'Commander Frank Federico of the Chilokver Air force here. Do we have clearance for Operation Knockout?'

I think challenge won by you.

[Servinta]

Can you tell me more about the observer position?
I'm imagining it being a group of officers watching and taking notes of what other nations do during their exercises, is that about right?

EXACTLY and youll get to have brunches on the observation vehicles provided

[Servinta]

But aren't I already one Co-OP? Chilokver, give us your best RP to become a Co-OP.

Challenge accepted.

The smell of ozone was heavy in the air and flashes of lightning and claps thunder could be heard far off in the distance as the 234 personnel at Gallus Airbase scrambled under the bright lights to prep all 62 aircraft in time for Operation Knockout. It was a race against time to get them into the air before the storm hit. Absolute chaos ensued as trucksstreaked around the base fueling them avgas and racks of Mark II COMA bombs were loaded on. Finally twenty minutes later, as the first drops of rain began to fall, they were ready to go. Display screens lit up on all the aircraft lined up on the runway. Each aircraft's 8 pulsejets's ignited with a powerful shockwave and all 62 bombers tore down the runway with a mighty roar. After reaching 80,000 feet they accelerated to Mach 6.47 and streaked over the dark stormy ocean towards Civilana .

Although they had taken off late at night in Chilokver, as they approached Civilana, the first few rays of sunlight flashed over the horizon and lit up the clouds in a brilliant display of red and orange. Commander Frank Federico gestured his hand towards the comms button and a channel was opened up to the Iravian forces.

'Commander Frank Federico of the Chilokver Air force here. Do we have clearance for Operation Knockout?'

Won good sir Co-OP you are

[Servinta]

Nation’s Name: The People's Union of Versail.
Commanding Officer of the task force: General Jerry Hall.
Required Forces: choose one or more of the following as your forces main interest for training:
[ ] Armoured:
[x] Infantry:
[ ] Helicopter:
[ ] Artillery:
[ ] CBRN:
[ ] Survival and evasion:
[ ] Desert Operations:
[ ] Other/please explain:
Deployed military task force number(max forces are capped at 10,000 infantry,5,000 vehicles please don't get near those numbers): 1st Infantry assault company ( 1,200 troop's), 45th Infantry company (1,200 troop's), 75th Urban combat company (1,200 troop's).
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify): no.
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify): Yes the 75th Urban combat company.
Is there a preference to BLUFOR or OPFOR Y/N (if so specify): negitive.
RP Example:http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=21027568#p21027568
I am trying to improve my RP skills.

Accepted only three non alliance combatant spots left

Observer and training always open to everyone

[Estenia]

Nation’s Name: The People's Union of Versail.
Commanding Officer of the task force: General Jerry Hall.
Required Forces: choose one or more of the following as your forces main interest for training:
[ ] Armoured:
[x] Infantry:
[ ] Helicopter:
[ ] Artillery:
[ ] CBRN:
[ ] Survival and evasion:
[ ] Desert Operations:
[ ] Other/please explain:
Deployed military task force number(max forces are capped at 10,000 infantry,5,000 vehicles please don't get near those numbers): 1st Infantry assault company ( 1,200 troop's), 45th Infantry company (1,200 troop's), 75th Urban combat company (1,200 troop's).
Will you require any specialized facilities on base Y/N (if so specify): no.
Will you be bringing any specialist units Y/N (if so specify): Yes the 75th Urban combat company.
Is there a preference to BLUFOR or OPFOR Y/N (if so specify): negitive.
RP Example:http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=21027568#p21027568
I am trying to improve my RP skills.

Accepted three spots left

The players need sides.