Open Letter From the Mentor Team, Re: Security Council

[Bentus]

Just to point out, RPers don't need NS to RP, and if they RP using a nation they don't need a region since they have the forum. Gameplayers and Military Gameplayers do need NS though.

So would it be a workable solution for RPers to up and leave?
In my opinion, no. NS has not been the only place I've RPed but it's been the one I enjoyed the most - the community was a large part of this. Regions - whilst I agree, aren't essential to RP - are tools which can be used to help improve the RP experience. Ultimately, yes you're right. Things WORK as they are - there I said it. But does that mean we shouldn't try to make them better?

[Bentus]

Ok, so I get your anger with regards to trying to get Mall to resign - fair enough. How about the issue of RP regions being vulnerable to R/D? Would you be willing for some new tool to be introduced to NS to make it more difficult (not necessarily impossible) to raid certain regions

The question I've been asking for a while is this: What makes Role Play so special that they need hand-crafted invasion rules and mechanics that apply to their regions and their regions only? Why are they the only ones who are entitled to make such demands and not, say, the entire rest of Nationstates?

Imo the password system can be exploited, and is.

No, it isn't being exploited, it only has the potential to be, and it's a long shot at that.

When Liberate Haven reaches query, passes by vote, and is then invaded, you then have the right to say the system is actively being exploited by raiders to raid regions. Until that happens, you can make no such claim.

For the first part:
Because as far as I can tell, it is significantly harder for an RP region to recover after raids if files aren't backed-up, etc. So they are especially vulnerable to begin with. I'd also say that, whilst the solution would thereby be more useful for RP regions, they should be open to every group on NS except to those partaking in R/D (well, those who want to be).

For the second:
So, you are telling me that there has been no example of a region with a password being raided? Ever?
I've not been around long enough to say otherwise, truthfully, so hey, it's a possibility. If they have, then it is being exploited - not necessarily a bad thing unless it's happening too often.

[Vicious Debaters]

School regions can't be invade iirc, there..right there...thats enough proof something can be done...

Really...there is no reason to force people to play your game...they're are more than enough who wouldn't mind...

As it is, raiding thrives in situations where it can target people who don't want to be targeted. If/when we give people the opportunity to opt out of the raiding/defending situation it would effectively cease to exist. The raiders would probably all quit or find somewhere else to go and the defenders would fall into welcome obscurity. I mean, why would they raid when all their potential targets cease to exist.

This is why I don't anticipate the situation being resolved anytime soon- the Administration of NationStates has recognized the legitimacy of both the raiders and the people who are opposed to being involved in R/D. I don't think any level of pressure or community outreach will have a huge effect getting rid of the raiding threat, because the Admins are so afraid of causing a mass-exodus. If necessarily, I could even see [violet] or her minions fundamentally changing something just to make sure the raiders stay happy, and the anti-raiders stay pissed off but not so pissed off that they leave.

[Northern Sunrise Islands]

Just to point out, RPers don't need NS to RP, and if they RP using a nation they don't need a region since they have the forum. Gameplayers and Military Gameplayers do need NS though.

Actually, sir. The sports folks kinda need the regions to organizate proper region tournaments, both club and national team-wise. Not to mention finding communities to actually go and do that are a bit hard, if you ask me.

[New Aerios]

I don't RP often, and I don't take it too seriously when I do. Having said that, it is ridiculous that RPers are in effect being forced to participate in the raider/defender trolling bollocks that they want no part in. It is even more ridiculous that a moderator approves of forcing the RP community to participate in the raider/defender trolling bollocks that they want no part in. I understand that M&R is acting as any other player, but as a moderator he is immediately looked to as an example for the rest of NS to follow. Attacks on people who don't wish to be attacked is not a good example for the rest of NS to be following.

I wish to sign.

[The Orson Empire]

School regions can't be invade iirc, there..right there...thats enough proof something can be done...

Really...there is no reason to force people to play your game...they're are more than enough who wouldn't mind...

As it is, raiding thrives in situations where it can target people who don't want to be targeted. If/when we give people the opportunity to opt out of the raiding/defending situation it would effectively cease to exist. The raiders would probably all quit or find somewhere else to go and the defenders would fall into welcome obscurity. I mean, why would they raid when all their potential targets cease to exist.

This is why I don't anticipate the situation being resolved anytime soon- the Administration of NationStates has recognized the legitimacy of both the raiders and the people who are opposed to being involved in R/D. I don't think any level of pressure or community outreach will have a huge effect getting rid of the raiding threat, because the Admins are so afraid of causing a mass-exodus. If necessarily, I could even see [violet] or her minions fundamentally changing something just to make sure the raiders stay happy, and the anti-raiders stay pissed off but not so pissed off that they leave.

This is essentially my viewpoint on the matter.

[Mekhet]

Just to point out, RPers don't need NS to RP, and if they RP using a nation they don't need a region since they have the forum. Gameplayers and Military Gameplayers do need NS though.

So would it be a workable solution for RPers to up and leave?
In my opinion, no. NS has not been the only place I've RPed but it's been the one I enjoyed the most - the community was a large part of this. Regions - whilst I agree, aren't essential to RP - are tools which can be used to help improve the RP experience. Ultimately, yes you're right. Things WORK as they are - there I said it. But does that mean we shouldn't try to make them better?

I'm not suggesting leaving, and anyways some RP based off their nations. But other than being in some region (A Pacific, Rejected Realms, a Sinker or any UCR) and keeping your nation alive (maybe issues or WA stuff) a RPer doesn't need the gameside.

The only redeeming value that you guys can argue is that the place you reside feels like you home and also the communal chat in your home. That's attachment and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with RP itself. 'm not saying none of you are not justified in defending this, but the game itself is not as important which naturally includes regions.

If you're kicked to TRR, what stops you from continuing to RP? Absolutely nothing.

[Mekhet]

Just to point out, RPers don't need NS to RP, and if they RP using a nation they don't need a region since they have the forum. Gameplayers and Military Gameplayers do need NS though.

Actually, sir. The sports folks kinda need the regions to organizate proper region tournaments, both club and national team-wise. Not to mention finding communities to actually go and do that are a bit hard, if you ask me.

Some exceptions exist, but that's not entirely necessary for all RP if the forum is the majority of RPing.

[Greater Mackonia]

School regions can't be invade iirc, there..right there...thats enough proof something can be done...

Really...there is no reason to force people to play your game...they're are more than enough who wouldn't mind...

As it is, raiding thrives in situations where it can target people who don't want to be targeted. If/when we give people the opportunity to opt out of the raiding/defending situation it would effectively cease to exist. The raiders would probably all quit or find somewhere else to go and the defenders would fall into welcome obscurity. I mean, why would they raid when all their potential targets cease to exist.

This is why I don't anticipate the situation being resolved anytime soon- the Administration of NationStates has recognized the legitimacy of both the raiders and the people who are opposed to being involved in R/D. I don't think any level of pressure or community outreach will have a huge effect getting rid of the raiding threat, because the Admins are so afraid of causing a mass-exodus. If necessarily, I could even see [violet] or her minions fundamentally changing something just to make sure the raiders stay happy, and the anti-raiders stay pissed off but not so pissed off that they leave.

And to that I say, If a game requires unwilling participants just to survive then why keep it?

[Evil Wolf]

So, you are telling me that there has been no example of a region with a password being raided? Ever?

No, I'm saying that no Raider group has ever been able to use the Security Council's Liberation Proposal to un-password a region and then raid it. That's what the real issue here.

Obviously if you give your password out to everyone and their mother, you're going to be raided. What the majority of people in this thread claim they're angry about is that Mall proposed a Liberate against Haven, a RP region (that's important because RP wouldn't care had it been, say, The Proletariat Coalition ), which would mean a password no one knows but the Delegate is no longer enough to keep people out. Other people are angry about other things, but that's the main gripe.

However, it won't pass since Raiders have never been able to use Liberation Proposals that they have proposed openly. If it does pass, it will be the first time in NS history.

[New Babylonia]

So would it be a workable solution for RPers to up and leave?
In my opinion, no. NS has not been the only place I've RPed but it's been the one I enjoyed the most - the community was a large part of this. Regions - whilst I agree, aren't essential to RP - are tools which can be used to help improve the RP experience. Ultimately, yes you're right. Things WORK as they are - there I said it. But does that mean we shouldn't try to make them better?

I'm not suggesting leaving, and anyways some RP based off their nations. But other than being in some region (A Pacific, Rejected Realms, a Sinker or any UCR) and keeping your nation alive (maybe issues or WA stuff) a RPer doesn't need the gameside.

The only redeeming value that you guys can argue is that the place you reside feels like you home and also the communal chat in your home. That's attachment and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with RP itself. 'm not saying none of you are not justified in defending this, but the game itself is not as important which naturally includes regions.

If you're kicked to TRR, what stops you from continuing to RP? Absolutely nothing.

...
You have completely walked over the point. Its RP regions, where the RP is fundamental to their RPing. So being shot into TRR would, in fact, destroy their community, their work, and their RP.

[Old Tyrannia]

School regions can't be invade iirc, there..right there...thats enough proof something can be done...

Really...there is no reason to force people to play your game...they're are more than enough who wouldn't mind...

As it is, raiding thrives in situations where it can target people who don't want to be targeted. If/when we give people the opportunity to opt out of the raiding/defending situation it would effectively cease to exist. The raiders would probably all quit or find somewhere else to go and the defenders would fall into welcome obscurity. I mean, why would they raid when all their potential targets cease to exist.

This is why I don't anticipate the situation to be resolved anytime soon- the Administration of NationStates has recognized the legitimacy of both the raiders and the people who are opposed to being involved in R/D. I don't think any level of pressure or community outreach will have a huge effect getting rid of the raiding threat, because they're so afraid of causing a mass-exodus. If necessarily, I could even see [violet] or her minions fundamentally changing something just to make sure the raiders stay happy, and the anti-raiders stay pissed off but not so pissed off that they leave.

Again and again, raiders have asserted that if anyone could opt out of the R/D game, it would die because no one would choose to opt in. Again and again, RPers have responded in the most obvious way possible- if the R/D game won't work without people being forced to participate because no one but the raiders want to participate, what is the point of continuing with the game? It's like in school. If a group of children are playing tag and taking turns at being "it," that's a friendly game. If all of the other kids decide that so-and-so is "it" without bothering to ask so-and-so to play, then all avoid and taunt so-and-so for the rest of lunchtime, that's not a friendly game. That's bullying.

At the end of the day, if the R/D game relies on unwilling participants for raiders to prey upon as you assert it does, then raiding isn't a game. Raiders are just bullies.

[The Leningrad Union]

School regions can't be invade iirc, there..right there...thats enough proof something can be done...

Really...there is no reason to force people to play your game...they're are more than enough who wouldn't mind...

As it is, raiding thrives in situations where it can target people who don't want to be targeted. If/when we give people the opportunity to opt out of the raiding/defending situation it would effectively cease to exist. The raiders would probably all quit or find somewhere else to go and the defenders would fall into welcome obscurity. I mean, why would they raid when all their potential targets cease to exist.

This is why I don't anticipate the situation being resolved anytime soon- the Administration of NationStates has recognized the legitimacy of both the raiders and the people who are opposed to being involved in R/D. I don't think any level of pressure or community outreach will have a huge effect getting rid of the raiding threat, because the Admins are so afraid of causing a mass-exodus. If necessarily, I could even see [violet] or her minions fundamentally changing something just to make sure the raiders stay happy, and the anti-raiders stay pissed off but not so pissed off that they leave.

Says the raider.

[The Orson Empire]

As it is, raiding thrives in situations where it can target people who don't want to be targeted. If/when we give people the opportunity to opt out of the raiding/defending situation it would effectively cease to exist. The raiders would probably all quit or find somewhere else to go and the defenders would fall into welcome obscurity. I mean, why would they raid when all their potential targets cease to exist.

This is why I don't anticipate the situation being resolved anytime soon- the Administration of NationStates has recognized the legitimacy of both the raiders and the people who are opposed to being involved in R/D. I don't think any level of pressure or community outreach will have a huge effect getting rid of the raiding threat, because the Admins are so afraid of causing a mass-exodus. If necessarily, I could even see [violet] or her minions fundamentally changing something just to make sure the raiders stay happy, and the anti-raiders stay pissed off but not so pissed off that they leave.

And to that I say, If a game requires unwilling participants just to survive then why keep it?

The mods and [violet] are apparently okay with it. That is why raiding has been around for such a long time.

As it is, raiding thrives in situations where it can target people who don't want to be targeted. If/when we give people the opportunity to opt out of the raiding/defending situation it would effectively cease to exist. The raiders would probably all quit or find somewhere else to go and the defenders would fall into welcome obscurity. I mean, why would they raid when all their potential targets cease to exist.

This is why I don't anticipate the situation being resolved anytime soon- the Administration of NationStates has recognized the legitimacy of both the raiders and the people who are opposed to being involved in R/D. I don't think any level of pressure or community outreach will have a huge effect getting rid of the raiding threat, because the Admins are so afraid of causing a mass-exodus. If necessarily, I could even see [violet] or her minions fundamentally changing something just to make sure the raiders stay happy, and the anti-raiders stay pissed off but not so pissed off that they leave.

Says the raider.

Do not claim that he is a raider just because his opinion is not the same as yours.

[Mekhet]

I'm not suggesting leaving, and anyways some RP based off their nations. But other than being in some region (A Pacific, Rejected Realms, a Sinker or any UCR) and keeping your nation alive (maybe issues or WA stuff) a RPer doesn't need the gameside.

The only redeeming value that you guys can argue is that the place you reside feels like you home and also the communal chat in your home. That's attachment and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with RP itself. 'm not saying none of you are not justified in defending this, but the game itself is not as important which naturally includes regions.

If you're kicked to TRR, what stops you from continuing to RP? Absolutely nothing.

...
You have completely walked over the point. Its RP regions, where the RP is fundamental to their RPing. So being shot into TRR would, in fact, destroy their community, their work, and their RP.

How does one RP on their RMB? That sounds awfully difficult.

[Bentus]

So would it be a workable solution for RPers to up and leave?
In my opinion, no. NS has not been the only place I've RPed but it's been the one I enjoyed the most - the community was a large part of this. Regions - whilst I agree, aren't essential to RP - are tools which can be used to help improve the RP experience. Ultimately, yes you're right. Things WORK as they are - there I said it. But does that mean we shouldn't try to make them better?

I'm not suggesting leaving, and anyways some RP based off their nations. But other than being in some region (A Pacific, Rejected Realms, a Sinker or any UCR) and keeping your nation alive (maybe issues or WA stuff) a RPer doesn't need the gameside.

The only redeeming value that you guys can argue is that the place you reside feels like you home and also the communal chat in your home. That's attachment and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with RP itself. 'm not saying none of you are not justified in defending this, but the game itself is not as important which naturally includes regions.

If you're kicked to TRR, what stops you from continuing to RP? Absolutely nothing.

I disagree, but I don't think I'm the best one to convince you otherwise. I don't do regional RP myself, so I'm a perfect example if what you're saying is that regions aren't essential to that part of it. But it's something which makes NS unique as a site to RP and draws so many of us here. Heck, there's plenty of examples of regions which have used their region to enhance the RP experience.
If any of the older players have an off-the-top-of-the-head link I'm sure they'd be willing to share it with you so that you could give it a look yourself.

[Evil Wolf]

Raiders are just bullies.

Repeating the same line a thousand times still doesn't make it true. ^_^

[New Babylonia]

...
You have completely walked over the point. Its RP regions, where the RP is fundamental to their RPing. So being shot into TRR would, in fact, destroy their community, their work, and their RP.

How does one RP on their RMB? That sounds awfully difficult.

Oh but they do it. I've seen it. Pretty damn well too, if I may add.

Raiders are just bullies.

Repeating the same line a thousand times still doesn't make it true. ^_^

Even though that's basically what it is, seeing as how you're FORCING people to do it.

[Old Tyrannia]

Raiders are just bullies.

Repeating the same line a thousand times still doesn't make it true. ^_^

If you're going to repeat the same argument a thousand times, expect the same response a thousand times.

I understand that repeating the same action over and over and expecting a different response is one definition of insanity.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

As it is, raiding thrives in situations where it can target people who don't want to be targeted. If/when we give people the opportunity to opt out of the raiding/defending situation it would effectively cease to exist. The raiders would probably all quit or find somewhere else to go and the defenders would fall into welcome obscurity. I mean, why would they raid when all their potential targets cease to exist.

This is why I don't anticipate the situation being resolved anytime soon- the Administration of NationStates has recognized the legitimacy of both the raiders and the people who are opposed to being involved in R/D. I don't think any level of pressure or community outreach will have a huge effect getting rid of the raiding threat, because the Admins are so afraid of causing a mass-exodus. If necessarily, I could even see [violet] or her minions fundamentally changing something just to make sure the raiders stay happy, and the anti-raiders stay pissed off but not so pissed off that they leave.

And to that I say, If a game requires unwilling participants just to survive then why keep it?

This, the greater point of the issue for me.

I mean I would like the R/D thing to die but thats just me and its an unrealistic dream.

I think this can be resolved, we just need an effective security measure, thats what I think is best.

[Mekhet]

I'm not suggesting leaving, and anyways some RP based off their nations. But other than being in some region (A Pacific, Rejected Realms, a Sinker or any UCR) and keeping your nation alive (maybe issues or WA stuff) a RPer doesn't need the gameside.

The only redeeming value that you guys can argue is that the place you reside feels like you home and also the communal chat in your home. That's attachment and doesn't necessarily have anything to do with RP itself. 'm not saying none of you are not justified in defending this, but the game itself is not as important which naturally includes regions.

If you're kicked to TRR, what stops you from continuing to RP? Absolutely nothing.

I disagree, but I don't think I'm the best one to convince you otherwise. I don't do regional RP myself, so I'm a perfect example if what you're saying is that regions aren't essential to that part of it. But it's something which makes NS unique as a site to RP and draws so many of us here. Heck, there's plenty of examples of regions which have used their region to enhance the RP experience.
If any of the older players have an off-the-top-of-the-head link I'm sure they'd be willing to share it with you so that you could give it a look yourself.

Military Gameplay that NS has is very unique. I've never seen that elsewhere. Yup, there's collateral damage, but I like that game having been both defender and raider and playing 7 years.

[The Leningrad Union]

And to that I say, If a game requires unwilling participants just to survive then why keep it?

The mods and [violet] are apparently okay with it. That is why raiding has been around for such a long time.

Says the raider.

Do not claim that he is a raider just because his opinion is not the same as yours.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Assume

I am saying he's a raider because his nation used to be in TBR and he told me he was a raider via TG months ago.

[Greater Mackonia]

And to that I say, If a game requires unwilling participants just to survive then why keep it?

The mods and [violet] are apparently okay with it. That is why raiding has been around for such a long time.

That does not really answer what I am asking, just because the mods allow something does not give it legitimacy.

Personally I am not even particularly bothered about raiding and if the truth be told I am not even that fussed about Haven in particular ( no offense meant towards these poor oppressed souls,because admittedly this Mallorea chap does seem to have some legitimate grievances towards them). Why I am supporting this motion is because the wording of this resolution clearly admits, even condones, a new precedent of "Liberating" and raiding RP regions, which is a danger. And of course the general symbolism of the whole affair, that raiders are being evidently favored over RPers.

[Vicious Debaters]

Says the raider.

Whoo. I'm not a raider. I mean, I've been part of the whole 'Make Mallorea Resign' thing.

My point was just that effectively killing raiding is extremely unlikely, and getting to opt out of the R/D game is also unlikely because that would kill raiding in turn. I wasn't actually making a value judgement there, I was just being pragmatic.

So far, the best solution seems to be getting a full anti-raider control going in the World Assembly so that raiders have absolutely no power in the Security Council. Malloreas shenanigans show what dire things would happen if they did have any control in the Security Council. Maybe we could work on reining in the raiders power from there.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

As it is, raiding thrives in situations where it can target people who don't want to be targeted. If/when we give people the opportunity to opt out of the raiding/defending situation it would effectively cease to exist. The raiders would probably all quit or find somewhere else to go and the defenders would fall into welcome obscurity. I mean, why would they raid when all their potential targets cease to exist.

This is why I don't anticipate the situation being resolved anytime soon- the Administration of NationStates has recognized the legitimacy of both the raiders and the people who are opposed to being involved in R/D. I don't think any level of pressure or community outreach will have a huge effect getting rid of the raiding threat, because the Admins are so afraid of causing a mass-exodus. If necessarily, I could even see [violet] or her minions fundamentally changing something just to make sure the raiders stay happy, and the anti-raiders stay pissed off but not so pissed off that they leave.

Says the raider.

You're sig is wrong, it needs to be a greenish blue like color c: