Open Letter From the Mentor Team, Re: Security Council

[Bezombia]

I'd be a lot happier if people just stopped playing this game of semantics and lying in people's faces. We all know that invading is trolling. Everyone knows it, but some are just pretending they don't and use different words that pretty much amount to the same things to try to reason their way out of it.

It's NS-licensed trolling, which means that, as a part of the game, it cannot be treated as standard trolling.

"That's a rock".

"It's not a rock, it's a stone."

inb4 deat

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Question for any raiders here in this thread: I expect it's been asked and answered before, but if an opt-out would "kill R/D"...doesn't that prove our point? Your game is entirely dependent on making other people play, and if given a choice nobody at all would, is what I'm getting from the "it'd kill R/D" argument.

[Grenartia]

Question for any raiders here in this thread: I expect it's been asked and answered before, but if an opt-out would "kill R/D"...doesn't that prove our point? Your game is entirely dependent on making other people play, and if given a choice nobody at all would, is what I'm getting from the "it'd kill R/D" argument.

That's been said a thousand times, and no proper answer, to my knowledge, has ever been given. The closest they ever come is by dodging the question and saying "Its teh way Max wants it".

[Feazanthia]

His nation(s) was/were deleted for referring to R/D as "self-fellatio" and "legalised trolling". Then they decided to go the whole hog and put a Delete on Sight on him.

If this isn't proof of staff bias (not all mods and admins, but enough of them) against RPers, then nothing is.

In fairness, Nierr had been dancing on the line since the start of this debacle. He was just asking to get his ass handed to him and I told him as much on IRC when he started his retaliatory nonsense. And for the record - he wasn't DoS'd for declaring Raiding as "legalized trolling". In my personal opinion, that's exactly what it is, and I've been shouting it just as loud as he has.

Also, I'm not saying don't call out bias when you see it, I just think you're pouncing at paper tigers here. It is my opinion that the Mods are not our enemies in this. In fact, their opinions thus far have tended to range from "the RPers are absolutely right" to "I don't care either way as long as people aren't breaking the rules".

The way the rules are, a raid cannot be considered a troll

even if one of the raiders involved -- who happens to be a Mod -- openly admits that they're trolling the invaded region...

Hence why it's bullshit; but, it's still a rule and they have to enforce said rules. Even if we don't agree with those rules (even if THEY don't agree with those rules), if they don't enforce the rules they wouldn't be very good Moderators.

[Grenartia]

If this isn't proof of staff bias (not all mods and admins, but enough of them) against RPers, then nothing is.

In fairness, Nierr had been dancing on the line since the start of this debacle. He was just asking to get his ass handed to him and I told him as much on IRC when he started his retaliatory nonsense. And for the record - he wasn't DoS'd for declaring Raiding as "legalized trolling". In my personal opinion, that's exactly what it is, and I've been shouting it just as loud as he has.

Also, I'm not saying don't call out bias when you see it, I just think you're pouncing at paper tigers here. It is my opinion that the Mods are not our enemies in this. In fact, their opinions thus far have tended to range from "the RPers are absolutely right" to "I don't care either way as long as people aren't breaking the rules".

Then he was DOS'd for calling it "self-fellatio". That's the only other statement in the post that's even remotely actionable. And yet, I absolutely fail to see how it actually is actionable.

How many times has NSG been referred to as a "circlejerk" of some form? More than anybody can count. But yet, the second somebody dares to call this site's golden calf "self-fellatio", the mods pounce. If that isn't a double standard, and proof of bias, then nothing is.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

even if one of the raiders involved -- who happens to be a Mod -- openly admits that they're trolling the invaded region...

Hence why it's bullshit; but, it's still a rule and they have to enforce said rules. Even if we don't agree with those rules (even if THEY don't agree with those rules), if they don't enforce the rules they wouldn't be very good Moderators.

Even if the mods are the ones who wrote the rules?

[Feazanthia]

Hence why it's bullshit; but, it's still a rule and they have to enforce said rules. Even if we don't agree with those rules (even if THEY don't agree with those rules), if they don't enforce the rules they wouldn't be very good Moderators.

Even if the mods are the ones who wrote the rules?

Except they weren't. That's the crux of the issue.

[Virana]

Hence why it's bullshit; but, it's still a rule and they have to enforce said rules. Even if we don't agree with those rules (even if THEY don't agree with those rules), if they don't enforce the rules they wouldn't be very good Moderators.

Even if the mods are the ones who wrote the rules?

That's almost like saying "if the policemen enforce the laws, they must have written all the laws."

[Bezombia]

Even if the mods are the ones who wrote the rules?

That's almost like saying "if the policemen enforce the laws, they must have written all the laws."

#OccupyBarry

[Rethan]

In fairness, Nierr had been dancing on the line since the start of this debacle. He was just asking to get his ass handed to him and I told him as much on IRC when he started his retaliatory nonsense. And for the record - he wasn't DoS'd for declaring Raiding as "legalized trolling". In my personal opinion, that's exactly what it is, and I've been shouting it just as loud as he has.

Also, I'm not saying don't call out bias when you see it, I just think you're pouncing at paper tigers here. It is my opinion that the Mods are not our enemies in this. In fact, their opinions thus far have tended to range from "the RPers are absolutely right" to "I don't care either way as long as people aren't breaking the rules".

Then he was DOS'd for calling it "self-fellatio". That's the only other statement in the post that's even remotely actionable. And yet, I absolutely fail to see how it actually is actionable.

How many times has NSG been referred to as a "circlejerk" of some form? More than anybody can count. But yet, the second somebody dares to call this site's golden calf "self-fellatio", the mods pounce. If that isn't a double standard, and proof of bias, then nothing is.

That is not why he was DoS'd. A DoS is very rarely a result of any single infringement, it's the result of a continued history of DEATs, bans and general rule breaking. By saying he got DoS'd for that single infringement is misrepresenting the mod's decision.

And it's site policy that people who consistently show a disregard for the rules of the forum get policed more stringently. I could say something borderline flamebaiting and get off with a bop on the nose or warning because of my (what I believe is) clean slate. Someone else could get a ban for it because of their continued history of rule breaking. This has always been the site's policy and imo it's a completely justified one. I've been expecting Nierr to receive a DoS for at least the past year, and as much as I'm sorry to see it happen he completely had it coming.

[Grenartia]

Then he was DOS'd for calling it "self-fellatio". That's the only other statement in the post that's even remotely actionable. And yet, I absolutely fail to see how it actually is actionable.

How many times has NSG been referred to as a "circlejerk" of some form? More than anybody can count. But yet, the second somebody dares to call this site's golden calf "self-fellatio", the mods pounce. If that isn't a double standard, and proof of bias, then nothing is.

That is not why he was DoS'd. A DoS is very rarely a result of any single infringement, it's the result of a continued history of DEATs, bans and general rule breaking. By saying he got DoS'd for that single infringement is misrepresenting the mod's decision.

And it's site policy that people who consistently show a disregard for the rules of the forum get policed more stringently. I could say something borderline flamebaiting and get off with a bop on the nose or warning because of my (what I believe is) clean slate. Someone else could get a ban for it because of their continued history of rule breaking. This has always been the site's policy and imo it's a completely justified one. I've been expecting Nierr to receive a DoS for at least the past year, and as much as I'm sorry to see it happen he completely had it coming.

True, he wasn't immediately DOS'd for the self-fellatio comment. HOWEVER. I cannot see any circumstance where calling one subsection of the site "self-fellatio" is at all an actionable offense (whether DEAT or warning), when it isn't actionable to refer to another subsection as a "circlejerk" (and I see no reason why the two comments aren't inherently on equal footing). The simple fact is, its proof of bias and a double standard. Unless there's some rule somewhere that says the actionability of a comment is dependent on who says it and their previous history. I've read the OSRS, and have not seen such a rule.

[Cata Larga]

I want to be clear. I am not saying the mods need to end raiding, nor do I think they would be able to. I am extremely irritated because they refuse to enforce the rules that they have set up. The rules they are tasked with enforcing are not being enforced.

I would gladly wait until new features are implemented to go at it against raiders, but the fact is that it has violated pre-existing site rules, and the mods won't even acknowledge that it is. Because of this, I have a hard time believing that they are on our side, especially because they will not admit it is a problem within their current realm of enforcement.

The way the rules are, a raid cannot be considered a troll even if its express purpose is to piss off other people. It sucks. It's ridiculous. It's completely asinine, and it gives trolls an avenue to do their dirty deeds without fear of moderator or administrator reprisal. Do not get me wrong, I am 100% behind you that it is trolling and wrong on every single level, but the Mods' hands are tied. Even if/when they want to lay the smackdown upon the guilty parties, they are forbidden to. It is not their fault.

Again, this issue has been debated for nigh-on ten years now.

Then why have there been no solutions for nigh-on ten years now?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

The way the rules are, a raid cannot be considered a troll even if its express purpose is to piss off other people. It sucks. It's ridiculous. It's completely asinine, and it gives trolls an avenue to do their dirty deeds without fear of moderator or administrator reprisal. Do not get me wrong, I am 100% behind you that it is trolling and wrong on every single level, but the Mods' hands are tied. Even if/when they want to lay the smackdown upon the guilty parties, they are forbidden to. It is not their fault.

Again, this issue has been debated for nigh-on ten years now.

Then why have there been no solutions for nigh-on ten years now?

Because the person (or people) with the actual authority doesn't (or don't) care, and there is no strategy or mechanism to make them care.

[Constaniana]

Then why have there been no solutions for nigh-on ten years now?

Because the person (or people) with the actual authority doesn't (or don't) care, and there is no strategy or mechanism to make them care.

Unless you whack Max in the nuts with a sign saying Mal should resign.

[Escalan Corps-Star Island]

Because the person (or people) with the actual authority doesn't (or don't) care, and there is no strategy or mechanism to make them care.

Unless you whack Max in the nuts with a sign saying Mal should resign.

I get the impression litigation might ensue.

[Constaniana]

Unless you whack Max in the nuts with a sign saying Mal should resign.

I get the impression litigation might ensue.

I can just dismiss that issue.

[OMGeverynameistaken]

While I don't know about Nierr's record, it does certainly seem that mods are more quick to issue DOS' for RPers than for NSG/gameplay people. Considering we have an admitted practicing pedophile running around...

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

While I don't know about Nierr's record, it does certainly seem that mods are more quick to issue DOS' for RPers than for NSG/gameplay people. Considering we have an admitted practicing pedophile running around...

Wait...wait...wait...

What the fuck?

[OMGeverynameistaken]

While I don't know about Nierr's record, it does certainly seem that mods are more quick to issue DOS' for RPers than for NSG/gameplay people. Considering we have an admitted practicing pedophile running around...

Wait...wait...wait...

What the fuck?

Correction, Cameroi's nation appears to have ceased to exist for one reason or another.

Regardless, the initial furor over his declaration resulted in no action by the moderator team, except judicious locking of all threads related to the incident.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

Wait...wait...wait...

What the fuck?

Correction, Cameroi's nation appears to have ceased to exist for one reason or another.

Regardless, the initial furor over his declaration resulted in no action by the moderator team, except judicious locking of all threads related to the incident.

Wait...he was a pedophile?

The fuck?

I need a break, Jesus Christ....

What happened?

I mean holy fucking shit....

Mind telegramming about it?

[The Tiger Kingdom]

Wait...wait...wait...

What the fuck?

Correction, Cameroi's nation appears to have ceased to exist for one reason or another.

Regardless, the initial furor over his declaration resulted in no action by the moderator team, except judicious locking of all threads related to the incident.

Yeah, the mods are basically a solid 0-for-2 on that whole front.

[Dread Lady Nathicana]

Alright that's about enough bullshit for one morning, thanks. This 'conspiracy' theory y'all have going is a load of crap, full stop.

For the love of $deity, I've been RP for the entire time I've been on this site. I've been a vocal supporter for the RP, across all forums, supported the P2TM split from F7, railed against the R/D stomping since day one, and continue to do so to this day. RPers are not singled out for punishment, and if they were, I'd be the first one publicly condemning the team for doing so, regardless of the fallout.

We don't give a flying fuck what part of the game you're interested and active in if you're breaking the rules. It really doesn't matter in the least. Action is taken based on a number of factors that most of you are blissfully unaware of due to the fact you do not have access to the information that we do. And yet you blather on here as if you have the absolute truth on the matter, and all facts and figures relating to it.

It ain't so, folks. It just ain't so.

As for this pedophile matter, it was sorted out ages ago. I was part of the investigation. You are taking what were admittedly questionable and potentially concerning comments made by a player, and just as was done before, blowing it entirely out of proportion. We turned over every possible stone we could in investigating that case, and there was no proof he was an 'admitted, practicing pedophile'. You don't have to like it, but there it is.

It might behoove you to have the actual facts behind some of these cases you're so vehemently arguing about before you go tossing accusations around the way you have.

I am seriously disappointed. Somehow, not surprised, but disappointed all the same.

If you have a complaint, lodge it in the proper manner, with links, and proof, and your reasoning for it, and stop lumping us all together and painting us with the same goram brush already.