OOC: The Future of II

[Tropicalnia]

I'm sorry Santh, but sometimes threads just need to be closed...

I'm sure you remember 30 Years Ago?

It still hurts my heart deep down inside when I think of how that went.

[Mirnect]

I would believe one of the reasons for the declining quality of International Incidents is due to the very transfer to these forums; on Jolt, I believe, you had to go through a sign-up process involving e-mail which probably provided a wall, per say, to bad roleplayers, and this change has cut out the e-mail registeration and left us with a swarm of bad roleplayers rushing through our lines like a Banzai charge, so to speak.

I have noticed the bad roleplaying as well. My own (now deleted) introduction, The Prestwick Summit, took me days to write and think through. With none of the joyous replies I expected and no real interest, I deleted it, alongside the PT introduction I was working on at the time in Microsoft Word. I have seen well-written threads - like the ones I patricipate in now - be shelved in favour of criticism of noob threads, which, if I may remind all who do so, bumps these threads and destroys other, well-written introductions by other newcomers, which can easily disencourage them from further activity on these forums, while encouraging the bad roleplayers, nay, helping the bad roleplayers to destroy this forum with mindlessness.

That is all I will say.

[Tropicalnia]

Mirnect, I know how you feel. Same happened to me.

And it sucks when you put your heart into a post, to see random one line responses which are either garbage or Godmoding.

[Memnosyne]

I think there's a slight difference between "not being able to ably write a creative story" and "They can't use basic e-mail sign-up". If anything these boards are liberating; a far easier and more fluid interface with NS proper which enables us to more actively get involved. As to this entire discussion? Pfft. Oppression isn't the answer in dealing with RP. We can't segregate and seal off; all the people prattling on about harsher standards and off-site havens are avoiding the problem as certainly as masses of closed threads are. People are too set in cliques and unwilling to actually get out there and mingle.

I'm of the opinion that I'll RP with anyone and hopefully if they're not good then I'll be able to help them along, show them how it all works, give them a bit of insight into how you're meant to write.

We have to work together to uplift those who're not that good, while ensuring that we all stay good. Only by enacting positive change can we conquer our problems and "save II", though I don't think it needs saving. This is just bellyaching over something that's always been here, rather than something that will soon prove fatal.

I should know about the past; I'm memory

[Kirav]

I would believe one of the reasons for the declining quality of International Incidents is due to the very transfer to these forums; on Jolt, I believe, you had to go through a sign-up process involving e-mail which probably provided a wall, per say, to bad roleplayers, and this change has cut out the e-mail registeration and left us with a swarm of bad roleplayers rushing through our lines like a Banzai charge, so to speak.

I have noticed the bad roleplaying as well. My own (now deleted) introduction, The Prestwick Summit, took me days to write and think through. With none of the joyous replies I expected and no real interest, I deleted it, alongside the PT introduction I was working on at the time in Microsoft Word. I have seen well-written threads - like the ones I patricipate in now - be shelved in favour of criticism of noob threads, which, if I may remind all who do so, bumps these threads and destroys other, well-written introductions by other newcomers, which can easily disencourage them from further activity on these forums, while encouraging the bad roleplayers, nay, helping the bad roleplayers to destroy this forum with mindlessness.

That is all I will say.

Signed.

This is true. Very true.

Instead of reprimanding the bad newcomers, we should be rewarding the good ones.

I maintain a puppet by the name of Livensola, which I have often used to post in good threads made by new RPers. Even if I only stay long enough to bump it to the front page and get it some outside attention, I believe that encouraging good roleplay is the best way to rebuild the 'establishment' of good roleplayers.

[Mirnect]

I think there's a slight difference between "not being able to ably write a creative story" and "They can't use basic e-mail sign-up". If anything these boards are liberating; a far easier and more fluid interface with NS proper which enables us to more actively get involved. As to this entire discussion? Pfft. Oppression isn't the answer in dealing with RP. We can't segregate and seal off; all the people prattling on about harsher standards and off-site havens are avoiding the problem as certainly as masses of closed threads are. People are too set in cliques and unwilling to actually get out there and mingle.

I'm of the opinion that I'll RP with anyone and hopefully if they're not good then I'll be able to help them along, show them how it all works, give them a bit of insight into how you're meant to write.

We have to work together to uplift those who're not that good, while ensuring that we all stay good. Only by enacting positive change can we conquer our problems and "save II", though I don't think it needs saving. This is just bellyaching over something that's always been here, rather than something that will soon prove fatal.

I should know about the past; I'm memory

True, but you have to remember, it's likely many of the noobs are 8-year-olds. Without e-mail or their parents' passwords.

[New Greston]

Every two days or so, I like to click on the Page 274, and I go through the threads. I used to do it to see if I remembered any of them going up and pass the time; now I do it for a little bit of reading material while I wait for something. I want you to do so too, right now even, just open up another tab. Read a few of those threads. Then read a few of threads currently on II today. If you can't tell so yourself, they have improved tremendously since the start of this forum.

What has happened is, as they improved, our skills grew better as well; it has come to the point where we have placed ourselves on such high pedestils that we cannot look back to our humble, NS beginings or see that they aren't so. I guess they just suck because they aren't to par with me.

Leistung, Oseato, and the likes that signed this, this "petition" (it is painful for me to actually call it that), you are only seeing the bad and you refuse to look past the multitude of excellent RPers and RPs out there, instead to focus on and complain about the first threads of newbs. There is both good and bad in this world; same goes for II. You are only choosing to see the bad.

The funny part is, you guys are so high up on your cozy, little country club cloud that you can't seem to comprehend that you were, at one point or another, just as "bad" as those who you now wish to reject and punish. And punish for not being born novelists, might I add. It is rediculous to say you weren't. By imposing your opinions on II, you are rejecting the possibility for the growth of a new generation of II, you are, in essence, rejecting yourselves.

Every single RPer that started in 2007 started with one liners and massive decalarations of war. Hell, my first thread was an announcement that a "Natzi" Uprising was happening. Look at my writing today and compare it to "Guy's radio was hit and needs Hans men to cover him for three miutes okay we got the radio up and running now is Han's men ready? What about Osteia squad? do you think we should wait for the Nazi Germany men?"

It's ridiculous that you feel any body who writes that should be banned from the forum and that everybody on II is dumber for reading it. I will admit it is poor but who are we to care if we are not in their thread and they are having fun by themselves? The beauty of II is that you can do what you want. They want one liners with other one liners, so be it. You don't need to RP with. Apparently there are more than enough "competent" RPers out there to RP with, look how many people signed this crap.

People can improve, they will improv, and they have improved. You guys are assuming that because they don't pop out a Pride and Prejudice a second after you talk to them that they don't want to get better and that they are horrible, helpless, little newbs. Here's a prime example, a friend of mine, Mykola (formerly Kopania). Mykola, at the begining of 09, was one of those poor RPers, no knowledge what so ever of technology and modern diplomacy; he popped out a new heir every three days.

Now he has a picture perfect model of a modern day Austro-Hungarian Empire.

If these codes were established when he was still in his first days, we would be lacking that in NS, on II. Another good example; a signee of this "petition". Fictions; the first time I RPed with him he was a small population Fascist nation RPing as one person and a nack for forgetting capitalisation and punctuation. I RP with him now and he RPs just as good, probably better, than myself. You think it's for the better that this should be instituted? Here's another RPer that would be missing from II.

What you are not grasping, when you post that you agree with this, is that if these rules were around when you joined, from the begining of NationStates Role Playing even, there wouldn't be RPs to even be in. Not enough people would have fit your almighty criteria to have continued and stayed on NS.

It will be even worse if this is instituted now; imagine all of the new members of NS. Yes, there are those rare ones that join and flourish quickly, or are simply talented free time writers that found it; but the majority of new NSers are Middle School and early High Schools boys who stumbled upon it. Most of them haven't written anything out side of the necessary writing for school, and their entire knowledge of military tatics, history, and weapons, comes from playing Call of Duty.

I was on of them.

You take that away from NS, they can never flourish and as the veterans grow older and die off, there won't be such a sacred form of RPing to be killed by this "cess". This "code" will stop the breeding of new members and originality, the only active members being those who feel it necessary to condemn and excommunicate any one that is not to par with them.

Imagine those ego clusterfuck threads where the size of the egos of the RPers dictate the RP itself. Now imagine those happening with every single RP that happens. Every one would have that ego, because every one else that could've grown on to be humble, respectable, fun to RP with would have been banned due to your dictation and opinion on how FREE FORM RP should be.

Now, to RP, you need to be a bloody Hemmingway and get accepted by the big bag Jolt vets. I say screw this and I refuse to sign this, and urge everyone else to do so as well. I am disgusted by the number of signees, plenty of whom being friends of mine, and with the breed of elitism that NS, II, has produced.

As Greenlandic People only just said, II is in need of something. But that something is not a poor guideline of what a bunch of people high on their horses demand should be enforced, what II needs is some patience and a little bit of understanding that II is not so bad as you think.

/rant

[Santheres]

Greston, in that whole rant of yours, you not only misunderstood entirely, but also missed points, and insulted people unnecessarily.

[The Wolf Hold]

All I can and would of said has been said. II is on a slow spiral downwards and somthing needs to happen

/signed

[The Master M]

As of the last few months, I have noticed a sharp increase in the amount of 'Closed' threads in II. Unfortunately, many of the 'Open' threads that remain either are or will become infested with illogical and completely ludicrous plot - if you could call it that - lines and characters, with little or no thought behind them.

What perplexes me is why players who act in such a way continue to do so even after the error of their ways has been pointed out on several occasions and by several other players. If they are unwilling to change, and indeed unable to role play to conventions fitting of II - as laid out in the stickies -, then why continue to do so anyway? It is almost as if they wish to become pariahs of the II community. No, when I think about it, they cannot become pariahs to the II community, because the majority of II now is made up of threads by the very people that should be shunned from it.

Something must be done. I personally like what Grays Harbour has set up. Whether or not it will work, I can only guess at, but the fact that it is completely voluntary leads me to become sadly resigned to its failure.

This in itself is a great shame. As has been previously stated in this thread, new players that stumble upon II find that many of the role plays they can join are populated by frivolous threads that have little or no thought behind them. If it were to a player such as myself that came across such a thread, I would leave as quickly as I had left, and either find a better quality thread or start my own. To those that have no previous experience, and indeed cannot get any with decent players because of the ‘Closed’ label, these ‘noobs’ are their only example of role playing. This can only lead them to ‘follow by example’, and themselves become shunned by the only people that could possibly help them rectify their mistakes.

It is because of the above points that I hereby sign this petition.

Signed,
M

[New Greston]

Greston, in that whole rant of yours, you not only misunderstood entirely, but also missed points, and insulted people unnecessarily.

I disagree. How did I miss the points? How did I misunderstand it to begin with? And where did I insult people? Are you going to refute my points or just shrug off the biggest arguement to this fallacy yet?

[Santheres]

Greston, in that whole rant of yours, you not only misunderstood entirely, but also missed points, and insulted people unnecessarily.

I disagree. How did I miss the points? How did I misunderstand it to begin with? And where did I insult people? Are you going to refute my points or just shrug off the biggest arguement to this fallacy yet?

No one said anything about Jane Austen or Hemingway. No one said anything about writing novels. A lot of the people signing the petition do RP on the II regularly. We're not country-club elitists. Hell, any person can RP on the Tarq boards if they wanted to. Last I checked, I can't even see the majority of the Tyr boards. You're more country-club than we are.

You rambled about things that just aren't true. You make accusations about what we want when we've already said that's not it at all. Basic grammar and a lack of spam is not a harsh demand, but you act like it will kill you to have any such thing enforced.

And as for insults? Well, I signed the petition. And no, I was not "just as bad" in the beginning. Therefore, insult. I was never as bad as what we see now. Half the people I RP with, personally, did not start writing on II. Kindly do not think that II is the only place we could have learned, and maybe some of us weren't "just as bad" just because you were at some point.

Your argument was not the biggest, it was the wordiest. It took a lot to say almost nothing at all.

That's why it's so difficult to counter your post, because it's a giant block of text that repeats itself when it's not rambling about irrelevancies.

[Malachor III]

Greston, in that whole rant of yours, you not only misunderstood entirely, but also missed points, and insulted people unnecessarily.

I disagree. How did I miss the points? How did I misunderstand it to begin with? And where did I insult people? Are you going to refute my points or just shrug off the biggest arguement to this fallacy yet?

Well for one most of what's suggested doesn't interfere with free form rp, rather it aims to keep the forum tidy. So you're already cast in with the ignorant lot that just shout "FREE FORM RP" until the convo dies.

[Santheres]

Greston, in that whole rant of yours, you not only misunderstood entirely, but also missed points, and insulted people unnecessarily.

I disagree. How did I miss the points? How did I misunderstand it to begin with? And where did I insult people? Are you going to refute my points or just shrug off the biggest arguement to this fallacy yet?

Well for one most of what's suggested doesn't interfere with free form rp, rather it aims to keep the forum tidy. So you're already cast in with the ignorant lot that just shout "FREE FORM RP" until the convo dies.

An excellent point. I had meant to say something about this, but forgot by the time I wrote out my initial thoughts.

[Amazonian Beasts]

You're assuming things Greston. I was never as bad as this - I read the damn stickies and started with a factbook. I was reasonable and listened to people, and the same sort of people - those who listened to others, cooperated, and put in effort - are those who are successful today.

The point that you missed is the criticism of effort, not quality. It's the criticism of lack of listening, lack of cooperation from the majority, lack of a community.

[Thrashia]

You're assuming things Greston. I was never as bad as this - I read the damn stickies and started with a factbook. I was reasonable and listened to people, and the same sort of people - those who listened to others, cooperated, and put in effort - are those who are successful today.

The point that you missed is the criticism of effort, not quality. It's the criticism of lack of listening, lack of cooperation from the majority, lack of a community.

I actually remember the first couple rps you were in AB, and I have to say at first you were pretty crappy. (So was I, in point of fact) And just like we all did, least those that stayed around, we wised up and got better at writing. We took in the lessons that we learned from our mistakes and improved on them. For the mass of noobs we bemoan being on right now (as AMF, myself, and others have pointed out), they will eventually be culled and those that remain will grow to become (hopefully) the next Amazonian Beasts, Grestons, AMFs, Chronosians, Gaian Ascendancy, etc. Just have patience. This is starting to sound like one of those conversations the trio of old Jewish guys who sit at the corner coffee shop on my street jabber on about all day, how things were better back in the 50's.

[Grays Harbor]

Something must be done. I personally like what Grays Harbour has set up. Whether or not it will work, I can only guess at, but the fact that it is completely voluntary leads me to become sadly resigned to its failure.

I can agree and sympathize with your concerns. The prime reason I decided to go "voluntary participation" is that I felt it would be far too presumptuous to request that it be a required thing, to include Umpires in an RP. Now, should any particular group of RPers or even entire regions decide that "If you want to RP with us, then you need to agree to abide by the rules set forth and accept umpires", that would thrill me to no end. In the end, pretty much my entire goal with this project is to get it to be self-sustaining and to create an atmosphere of enjoyable RP's that are fun to participate in and to read even if you are not participating.

I understand that writing skills vary from player to player (I'd put my own somewhere in the middle; not really great, but doesn't suck for the most part either) and that is what ultimately makes an RP readable, the writing and story continuity. Having a few good storyline posts, followed by several pages of OOC bickering, is what kills most potentially good RP's in my opinion. So, I guess that what the Umpires are ultimately for, to keep a stroyline going and cut down on the bickering.

[New Greston]

Greston, in that whole rant of yours, you not only misunderstood entirely, but also missed points, and insulted people unnecessarily.

I disagree. How did I miss the points? How did I misunderstand it to begin with? And where did I insult people? Are you going to refute my points or just shrug off the biggest arguement to this fallacy yet?

No one said anything about Jane Austen or Hemingway. No one said anything about writing novels. A lot of the people signing the petition do RP on the II regularly. We're not country-club elitists. Hell, any person can RP on the Tarq boards if they wanted to. Last I checked, I can't even see the majority of the Tyr boards. You're more country-club than we are.

You rambled about things that just aren't true. You make accusations about what we want when we've already said that's not it at all. Basic grammar and a lack of spam is not a harsh demand, but you act like it will kill you to have any such thing enforced.

And as for insults? Well, I signed the petition. And no, I was not "just as bad" in the beginning. Therefore, insult. I was never as bad as what we see now. Half the people I RP with, personally, did not start writing on II. Kindly do not think that II is the only place we could have learned, and maybe some of us weren't "just as bad" just because you were at some point.

Your argument was not the biggest, it was the wordiest. It took a lot to say almost nothing at all.

That's why it's so difficult to counter your post, because it's a giant block of text that repeats itself when it's not rambling about irrelevancies.

Half the thread was "BURN TEH N00BS!" The other half was talking of splitting up the community and shunning newbs and how it is ruining every single RP. Most every one that signed it was making comments of how they were angry at all new IIers, and 2009 members. There are plenty of 2009 members that are just as good as 2007 vets, whats the next step from a slightly above average NS RP? Half of them are angry at every noob, what do you want them to produce instead?

Most every recent post was about how we should exclude the crappy noobs. Explain to me how any of that is not country club-elitism? You accuse me of rambling, did you even read my post?

So yes, I guess it does kill me that you and your friends think free form RPing should be enforced. Is it so bad that a newer RPers can make a thread, spell crappily, use poor grammar, and enjoy themselves? Or are you so worried about the image of our sacred, precious forum that they must go? This is what it so ridiculous. I countered most every reason that this thread was made and you come out ranting about how I insulted people. I made the examples of how most of the people I RP with, personally, learned from II. And I also pointed out that the new ones can, and have.

You come out and get angry about the slightest bit of a point. I never claimed you personally were a "bad" RPer, I simply stated that plently of current RPers have learned from II. But yes, go on and do nothing to refute my points but cry INSULT and label me.

I also, whole-heartedly, agree with what Thrasia only just said.

[Third Spanish States]

Every single RPer that started in 2007 started with one liners and massive decalarations of war.

I didn't. This is as bad of an argument as claiming "Everyone who signed in 2009 is a hopeless n00b and should be b&". Personally, I'd simply loosen all the rules and let the old guys troll hopeless n00bs back into Oblivion and Halo3 rather than making even more rules(it works in other boards I visit, but cutted off a significant amount of potential members who couldn't stand the heat, as a con), but that's not going to happen and this place has already been "conditioned" the way it is, making of any drastic changes in policies nothing but a good powderkeg for E-drama.

FAIL will always be prevalent, however. Regardless, I don't trust excessive heavy-handing, specially considering where things could go from it. I once played a heavily-enforced MMO with a RP focus, where the GMs always tended to OOCly favor their friends during RPs. I'm not claiming that this would happen here as well if moderators started to intervene heavily in International Incidents, but it could happen through a slippery slope, because the serious business of RL regarding relations of power, favoritism and authority also apply to virtual environments, regardless of how irrelevant it is for Real Life, as some people actually crave ego from the Internet.

However, considering how things are going, I won't motion against the idea either, but instead, abstain.

[Unkerlantum]

Half the thread was "BURN TEH N00BS!" The other half was talking of splitting up the community and shunning newbs and how it is ruining every single RP. Most every one that signed it was making comments of how they were angry at all new IIers, and 2009 members. There are plenty of 2009 members that are just as good as 2007 vets, whats the next step from a slightly above average NS RP? Half of them are angry at every noob, what do you want them to produce instead?

Most every recent post was about how we should exclude the crappy noobs. Explain to me how any of that is not country club-elitism? You accuse me of rambling, did you even read my post?

So yes, I guess it does kill me that you and your friends think free form RPing should be enforced. Is it so bad that a newer RPers can make a thread, spell crappily, use poor grammar, and enjoy themselves? Or are you so worried about the image of our sacred, precious forum that they must go? This is what it so ridiculous. I countered most every reason that this thread was made and you come out ranting about how I insulted people. I made the examples of how most of the people I RP with, personally, learned from II. And I also pointed out that the new ones can, and have.

You come out and get angry about the slightest bit of a point. I never claimed you personally were a "bad" RPer, I simply stated that plently of current RPers have learned from II. But yes, go on and do nothing to refute my points but cry INSULT and label me.

I also, whole-heartedly, agree with what Thrasia only just said.

[Santheres]

Greston, I am not crying. I'm not angry. The majority of my post was not about insults. Other people have responded to you, as well. Perhaps you would like to reply to them?

You're deliberately making shit up. When was the last time you actually RPed on II? Last I checked, you can't even be asked to post in the Tynemouth thread, which kind of sucks considering I'm ICly risking my political alliances by siding with you.

And of course, now you're getting hostile with me because I dare to disagree. And that's while you don't actually reply to any of my points except the one where I said "we didn't all suck at the beginning as badly as this, or as you."

[Telros]

Greston, in that whole rant of yours, you not only misunderstood entirely, but also missed points, and insulted people unnecessarily.

I disagree. How did I miss the points? How did I misunderstand it to begin with? And where did I insult people? Are you going to refute my points or just shrug off the biggest arguement to this fallacy yet?

Well for one most of what's suggested doesn't interfere with free form rp, rather it aims to keep the forum tidy. So you're already cast in with the ignorant lot that just shout "FREE FORM RP" until the convo dies.

An excellent point. I had meant to say something about this, but forgot by the time I wrote out my initial thoughts.

No, we are not the "ignorant crowd" that's just mindlessly shouting three words to try and overcrowd you. The fact that you claim that, when several players have given you in-depth reasons as to why they disagree, only shows how ignorant you are.

I understand the motives behind this...somewhat. Yes, there has been a lot of "noobishness" and one-liners going around. But then, when HASN'T there been? I have not been here as long, being only a middle '06er myself, but for the close to three years now I have been on this site, I've seen a constant influx of "noobs" who come in and proceed to nuke the world in horrific non-Euclidean sentences they refer to as the English language, or make that sentence, and do every other thing you are claiming. One of two things will usually happen: One, they eventually fade and died or get banned for being foolish, or they start to learn. An example of this is with a great rper named Xiscapia.

He started off rather well for a newbie, but he still had some of the tendencies. As he rped and made threads, he grew and grew. Initially, I was like you, getting pissy about certain things he did like claiming superiority and all that stuff. After a year or two, though, when reading his work and basically maturing, I realized that he was a fine rper and I need to get out of that elitist mindset. Which I did and I still consider Xis to be a great rper to this very day.

Granted, on some occasions, the bad rpers stay and either write well but rp badly, or just continue on with their bad selves. This happens. As Greston, AMF, and Dontgonearearth have said, we all sucked this badly, in varying degrees, once. I go over my old stuff from time to time and shudder at what I wrote, but I realize it was part of the process. If you start to draw, you think its great and the best thing in the world. When you come back years later from college and look at it, you would chuckle to yourself and realize how far you have come.

So yes, they are not great but it IS going to happen and they need to go through the trials to become great rpers. And you know what one important, vital, and avoided tool is in facilitating that?

Us.

We the body of "veteran" rpers can guide them, either in a dedicated tutor process, or just by giving hints and aid out now and again. Pointing out the stickies, informing them on the rules, having them run ideas by us, etc. However, this idea is very very VERY lacking. You guys, without even trying that as far as I can tell, have just jumped the gun and insisted on moderator control and adding in a bunch of groups and submods that will make things even more complicated than they are for the mods. There IS a thread known as NS Trainers for this sort of thing, when you can announce when you want to learn or when you are able to teach. And the Umpire thread looks okay, I'll have to take another look at it, but its these things that work. I was a product of Hyperspatial Travel and his Universeii site, Chronosia and his tutoring on my early days on NS, then Balrogga, then OG, then Auman, then several other people. I have asked, learned, and done over the course of the years because older players helped me on my way up to join their ranks. I don't see that happening now, and yet you wonder why they don't just magically get better and do what you expect?

Please, the hypocrisy is starting to leave a taste in my mouth.

Also, the mods made it clear the several times this was brought up. We are to essentially police ourselves. Think about this for a moment. Granted, this was due to problems and the mods having enough to deal with as is, but they basically told us "You guys get the power to regulate yourselves, and the responsibility that comes with it." The mods can be called to deal with infractions of flames and such, and as one of them described earlier in this very thread, the OP can call them in to enforce their power as the OP. That is plenty of stuff right there.

So, by this petition, I see players who cannot handle the responsibility of managing their own and basically are sending a message saying "We are not capable of handling this on our own or just enforcing rules within our groups. We need YOU to step in."

So no, I will not sign this disgrace of a petition, and I am deeply disappointed in those who have, some of who are my friends. This is, like Phenia said, a meme of how bad II is and how it used to be good, and AMF was right about it being better than it used to be, and it's just typical resurgence of this idea.

Tl;dr

Basically, people are going to come in if they have internet and access to a computer. You are not always going to like what you see. So either put up and help them out, or shut up and rp in single groups. Don't go enforcing rules on all of NS because you don't like what you see.

Also, I really am curious as to how many of those who signed actually read the thread or they just say "make II better by enforcing rules on noobs" and signed up right then and there.

P.S.:

Santheres: So he hasn't rped in II for a while, so what?

[Leistung]

If I may bring the thread back around to the original point...

Yes, we were all once pretty bad RPers. The point made in the original post, if anyone has still bothered to read it, is that we all got better because we were surrounded by decent/good/great threads. Now, with the vast drop in quality, new players are surrounded by decent/bad/terrible threads.

[Malachor III]

Telros nothing I was suggesting interfered with free form rp at all, yet that was the counter argument provided against it. It doesn't even apply, you might want to read through what I had been saying etc before making an ass of yourself again.

[Amazonian Beasts]

You're assuming things Greston. I was never as bad as this - I read the damn stickies and started with a factbook. I was reasonable and listened to people, and the same sort of people - those who listened to others, cooperated, and put in effort - are those who are successful today.

The point that you missed is the criticism of effort, not quality. It's the criticism of lack of listening, lack of cooperation from the majority, lack of a community.

I actually remember the first couple rps you were in AB, and I have to say at first you were pretty crappy. (So was I, in point of fact) And just like we all did, least those that stayed around, we wised up and got better at writing. We took in the lessons that we learned from our mistakes and improved on them. For the mass of noobs we bemoan being on right now (as AMF, myself, and others have pointed out), they will eventually be culled and those that remain will grow to become (hopefully) the next Amazonian Beasts, Grestons, AMFs, Chronosians, Gaian Ascendancy, etc. Just have patience. This is starting to sound like one of those conversations the trio of old Jewish guys who sit at the corner coffee shop on my street jabber on about all day, how things were better back in the 50's.

Oh no doubt. I blew in early '06 when me and Pyth tried to fight Kraven. Needless to say we lost.