The Pivot OOC (Cornellia/Aurora ONLY)

[Norvenia]

Jed, you make a wonderful audience. Thank you.

[Jedoria]

Jed, you make a wonderful audience. Thank you.

I aim to please.

[Norvenia]

Unfortunately, given the pace of current events, unavoidable RL issues have come up: a dear friend of mine is going into surgery for breast cancer. So I'll be taking off an indefinite amount of time (probably not less than one week and not more than three) to focus on that situation. Keep my seat warm, eh?

Also: If New Edom and Nalaya don't see this, Jed, I'm counting on you to notify them. Thanks.

[Jedoria]

Unfortunately, given the pace of current events, unavoidable RL issues have come up: a dear friend of mine is going into surgery for breast cancer. So I'll be taking off an indefinite amount of time (probably not less than one week and not more than three) to focus on that situation. Keep my seat warm, eh?

Also: If New Edom and Nalaya don't see this, Jed, I'm counting on you to notify them. Thanks.

I got your back Norv. Best wishes to your friend.

[Jedoria]

Glad your friend is doing better Norv, and welcome back.

[Norvenia]

Thanks, Jed. I may be slightly more erratic in posting this summer than I had expected, but I do hope to get some replies up in the next few days.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Appears I may have to join this at some point.

[Jedoria]

Well, looks like war is coming. Brace yourselves.

[Jedoria]

I guess this thread is over.

[New Edom]

I would like to express my thoughts on why we should tie up this thread, and with a bit of room to maneuver retain the canon on this thread.

I have put a lot of work into this, and I do not like that people are wanting a fade out. I do not see how it harms people to retain the canon of this thread and ADTO. This would also allow for relations to exist previously between nations, and have a good story to refer to.

My idea is that my fleet would have escaped and evaded Norvenia's attempt at encirclement, that the former ADTO nations and several trading partners would have slapped embargoes and sanctions against Norvenia. Due to their heavy focus on militarism, welfare state, limited trade, their economy collapses along with the Grifiths government.

Norvenia made it clear that we could do what we wanted with his country. I think we should. Let us tie up the Pivot thread, and we can just move forward.

[The Republic of Lanos]

I would like to express my thoughts on why we should tie up this thread, and with a bit of room to maneuver retain the canon on this thread.

I have put a lot of work into this, and I do not like that people are wanting a fade out. I do not see how it harms people to retain the canon of this thread and ADTO. This would also allow for relations to exist previously between nations, and have a good story to refer to.

My idea is that my fleet would have escaped and evaded Norvenia's attempt at encirclement, that the former ADTO nations and several trading partners would have slapped embargoes and sanctions against Norvenia. Due to their heavy focus on militarism, welfare state, limited trade, their economy collapses along with the Grifiths government.

Norvenia made it clear that we could do what we wanted with his country. I think we should. Let us tie up the Pivot thread, and we can just move forward.

IIRC ADTO died due to Norvenian actions in Aurora. That's what I gathered at least.

What you proposed works but we need Norvenia to initiate military action for a lot of the embargoes and sanctions to take effect.

[New Edom]

Then we could have another military incident in Seahold's waters.

[Hittanryan]

I agree with New Edom's assessment. I've spent countless hours on Pivot, neglecting other threads I've been trying to finish. The collapse of the ADTO and subsequent realignment of Aurora against Norvenia was a very interesting, far-reaching event with the potential to drive future RPs. If that's retconned, considering Norvenia is no more, then we have all effectively wasted our time.

I'd like to build on New Edom's proposal for the conclusion of the thread, starting with the impetus for sanctions. Suppose Wright is on the edge of Seahold's EEZ, one of his aircraft picks up a cruiser, and believing it to be Edomite Wright sinks it. Turns out it was misidentified though, and it was actually a Seaholder vessel. In spite of Griffiths' political backpedaling, his nation is perceived as a bully and gets hit with the sanctions. Many of Norvenia's international commitments at the time are abandoned to prepare for trouble at home.

Then, at the same time, let's say Griffiths hasn't yet released the full transcripts of Wright's communications with Shalmaneser, but some right-minded whistleblower leaks it to the press just after the sanctions hit and before Griffiths has a chance to attack the rest of the region. The Norvenian public then has its first real case of self-doubt.

Griffiths, unfortunately, must keep the loyalty of his party (including the hawks), and still cannot rectify the situation diplomatically due to the O'Donnell Doctrine. His party instead declares that the democracies who stand against Norvenia are not "real democracies," but Quislings who are in the pockets of dictatorships. The sanctions get worse, and stay in place long enough to cripple Norvenia's economy for the remainder of Griffiths' term in office. The Christian Socialists are then soundly defeated in the next election.

When forced to make a choice between slashing welfare spending and slashing military spending, the opposition chooses to cut the military, having made it a plank in their platform by now. Norvenia abandons the O'Donnell Doctrine but remains bitter at the outside world, descending into sleepy isolationism. Although still a significant military power easily capable of defending itself, it is no longer a superpower above and beyond the other nations in the region.

[New Edom]

I think those are very good ideas. In a way it's a great cautionary tale too. The best tragedies have elements of greatness damaged or lost. All that courage and resourcefulness, intelligence and planning put towards an ideal that was too focused on particular conditions of victory to be of any earthly use--things like this happen in the real world.

Just wanted to add: this would leave Norvenia a kind of NPC nation like Gehenna Tartarus, Grossprussia and other nations in our region--no one really touches them. They can be referred to as travel locations and that sort of thing but it's assumed that you can't invade them or mess with them.

[The Republic of Lanos]

I agree with New Edom's assessment. I've spent countless hours on Pivot, neglecting other threads I've been trying to finish. The collapse of the ADTO and subsequent realignment of Aurora against Norvenia was a very interesting, far-reaching event with the potential to drive future RPs. If that's retconned, considering Norvenia is no more, then we have all effectively wasted our time.

I'd like to build on New Edom's proposal for the conclusion of the thread, starting with the impetus for sanctions. Suppose Wright is on the edge of Seahold's EEZ, one of his aircraft picks up a cruiser, and believing it to be Edomite Wright sinks it. Turns out it was misidentified though, and it was actually a Seaholder vessel. In spite of Griffiths' political backpedaling, his nation is perceived as a bully and gets hit with the sanctions. Many of Norvenia's international commitments at the time are abandoned to prepare for trouble at home.

Then, at the same time, let's say Griffiths hasn't yet released the full transcripts of Wright's communications with Shalmaneser, but some right-minded whistleblower leaks it to the press just after the sanctions hit and before Griffiths has a chance to attack the rest of the region. The Norvenian public then has its first real case of self-doubt.

Griffiths, unfortunately, must keep the loyalty of his party (including the hawks), and still cannot rectify the situation diplomatically due to the O'Donnell Doctrine. His party instead declares that the democracies who stand against Norvenia are not "real democracies," but Quislings who are in the pockets of dictatorships. The sanctions get worse, and stay in place long enough to cripple Norvenia's economy for the remainder of Griffiths' term in office. The Christian Socialists are then soundly defeated in the next election.

When forced to make a choice between slashing welfare spending and slashing military spending, the opposition chooses to cut the military, having made it a plank in their platform by now. Norvenia abandons the O'Donnell Doctrine but remains bitter at the outside world, descending into sleepy isolationism. Although still a significant military power easily capable of defending itself, it is no longer a superpower above and beyond the other nations in the region.

Dis gon b gud.

And bad at the same time.

[Jedoria]

I put more effort into this OOC thread than the actual thread, so eh. Don't care anymore.

[Mizuyuki]

-snip-

The problem with that solution, Edom, is that the Aenean nations have modified their canon to fit Aeneas, while entirely retconning their presence in Aurora - I'm sure you can understand our rationale for doing so. The way I see it, given the considerable involvement of Aeneans in the thread, we have two options - either create five Auroran not-nations (Mizuyuki, Afalia, Regnum Albion, Aurinsula and Lanos) to replace the Aenean nations and subsequently allow them to exist as NPC nations, or make alterations to the ADTO such that the Aeneans could feasibly have been involved in the Pivot. The first option would necessarily involve the Cornellians controlling the NPC nations for the duration of the thread, since I believe most of us are loath to revisit the Pivot. The second would entail us reworking the ADTO into our canon - not a popular idea among us. I don't profess to speak to all of Aeneas, but I personally wish to make a clean break - and that would mean no previous canon or involvement with Aurora.

-snip-

My earlier point regarding Aenean canon still stands. I see no problem with your suggestions, Ryan, merely the fact that the Aeneans, for all practical purposes, no longer exist in Aurora. Modifications will need to be made if we are to move forward with this plan.

[First Valerian Empire]

Aurora is a sinking ship and all canon associated with the deserters has been retconned...

Norvenia was left to Aurora and I shall pose your suggestion to my region mates and return back with a solution or another suggestion.

[The Republic of Lanos]

Aurora is a sinking ship and all canon associated with the deserters has been retconned...

Norvenia was left to Aurora and I shall pose your suggestion to my region mates and return back with a solution or another suggestion.

We're trying to keep Pivot going here without wasting all this effort.

[Mizuyuki]

Aurora is a sinking ship and all canon associated with the deserters has been retconned...

Norvenia was left to Aurora and I shall pose your suggestion to my region mates and return back with a solution or another suggestion.

*shrugs*

Very classy of you, I'm sure. If you want to unilaterally retcon everything without even bothering to discuss the matter with the remaining Aurorans, be my guest. You're only going to worsen the situation.

[First Valerian Empire]

Person above me.



The Pivot was created to centralize the story involving Norvenia,Aurora, New Edom and Cornellia. Norvenia and Aurora are gone and therefore the story is gone. I believe the only reasonable solution would be to find a amiable conclusion to this thread without retconning the entire thing because quite frankly alot of people put alot of hard work into it and no one wants to see it destroy based on the wants of a few soulless creatures.

[First Valerian Empire]

Aurora is a sinking ship and all canon associated with the deserters has been retconned...

Norvenia was left to Aurora and I shall pose your suggestion to my region mates and return back with a solution or another suggestion.

*shrugs*

Very classy of you, I'm sure. If you want to unilaterally retcon everything without even bothering to discuss the matter with the remaining Aurorans, be my guest. You're only going to worsen the situation.

Unless my english is failing me.. I do believe I said that I would discuss the matter with my regionmates and return.

[Mizuyuki]

Aurora is a sinking ship and all canon associated with the deserters has been retconned...

Norvenia was left to Aurora and I shall pose your suggestion to my region mates and return back with a solution or another suggestion.

And unless my eyes are failing me, you made the decision to retcon our canon without consulting Aurora.

At any rate, I have no wish to continue this pointless debate with you. I'm out.

[First Valerian Empire]

Aurora is a sinking ship and all canon associated with the deserters has been retconned...

Norvenia was left to Aurora and I shall pose your suggestion to my region mates and return back with a solution or another suggestion.

And unless my eyes are failing me, you made the decision to retcon our canon without consulting Aurora.

At any rate, I have no wish to continue this pointless debate with you. I'm out.

1.Your not Aurora
2. ''Oh, I wasn't suggesting retconning /all/ our canon, Afa, merely the parts through which we are bound to Aurora''-Mizuyuki

[Hittanryan]

Person above me.



The Pivot was created to centralize the story involving Norvenia,Aurora, New Edom and Cornellia. Norvenia and Aurora are gone and therefore the story is gone. I believe the only reasonable solution would be to find a amiable conclusion to this thread without retconning the entire thing because quite frankly alot of people put alot of hard work into it and no one wants to see it destroy based on the wants of a few soulless creatures.

New Edom and myself have both proposed conclusions to Pivot for that very reason. Please review them above.