Formal apology (not an RP)

[Eemeria]

Quite frankly, I have a bit of a hard time taking your apology seriously.

Ralkovia made a spammy thread to try and elicit angry responses and got them, in a long and pretty awful exercise all around. You joined in on the fun for shits and giggles knowing full well how it would progress, and the only thing you didn't consciously expect was the degree to which Nathanica would bring down the hammer on you. Moreover, in spamming the way you did, you weren't just consuming bandwidth, you were mocking the new or inexperienced RP'ers you're supposed to be helping - that's just not acceptable from someone with the 'Mentor' title.

Were I a mod, I would have given out much harsher bans and gone through the steps to initiate a review of your Mentorship. Which is, admittedly, why I'd make a pretty awful mod, but that's my two cents anyway.

Oh for Gods Sake, lay off will you. Yes the guy made a mistake, doesn't everyone? I'm sure you've made mistakes in your life, or am I wrong and you're a perfect human being who has never slipped up? If so please allow me to bow down to your perfection. Onto my point, its people like you that make this community bad, people who take a mistake and turn it into the biggest f*cking deal (pardon my French). I challenge you to not make a single mistake for the next year THEN you may come and challenge Virana. Now yes I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but yours is as blasphemous as Mussolini's opinions on how to run a nation.

And onto Nathacina's post, you've been slagged off a bit in this thread and its shows how much courage you truly have to write something like that. People tend to see a persons actions and mistake them for what they truly are. I will put you on the same boat as Virana, you may have made a mistake but you're both true, honest people to stand up like this and apologize (even if the apology was not needed in some cases). Its good to see we still have people in this community who know when they've messed up. Virana has helped me in the past and he truly is a kindhearted person, I don't know much about Nathicana but I would hope you sailed the same boat.


Cheers.

[Tiami]

.....

Thank you, DLN, for that post. I admit, when I received the ban, I had a fit of rage. Not like me at all, honestly. Sure, I was mad, but I can see now why the ban was implemented. I was still in favor of a warning, especially for those players who had not had any trouble with the moderation staff for many years, but I can respect the decision. I think moderation deserves a thank you, as it appears the staff does not get as much credit as it deserves. So, for that, I thank you.

As for the mentors, I do not think anyone should have their title stripped. No one is perfect, nor are they expected to. No mentor can always keep up their role model persona. We're human, we make mistakes. It is how life works. When we enter a down period, we find a way to recover and make amends. In the end, we all have to move on and let this stay in the past. After all, we all love to RP and we do not want a past experience impairing us at all.

And for DLN, sure, you have received a hefty load of accusations and hate from the NS community. But I know that you are only doing your job. People take actions more than someone's words. Don't let that impair you at all. You do a good job and you're a fun person to talk to when I occasionally roll around on TET. As Eemeria said, you're a true person and it took courage to write what you did. I thank you for that. Keep striving to make this forum a better experience for all of us. ^.^

[New Babylonia]

Kudos to you, Virana. Definitely not something most would do. And a salute to Nathi as well, i don't think i've ever seen a mod apologize for a ruling before. I'm sure its happened, i've just never seen it.

[Eemeria]

.....

Thank you, DLN, for that post. I admit, when I received the ban, I had a fit of rage. Not like me at all, honestly. Sure, I was mad, but I can see now why the ban was implemented. I was still in favor of a warning, especially for those players who had not had any trouble with the moderation staff for many years, but I can respect the decision. I think moderation deserves a thank you, as it appears the staff does not get as much credit as it deserves. So, for that, I thank you.

As for the mentors, I do not think anyone should have their title stripped. No one is perfect, nor are they expected to. No mentor can always keep up their role model persona. We're human, we make mistakes. It is how life works. When we enter a down period, we find a way to recover and make amends. In the end, we all have to move on and let this stay in the past. After all, we all love to RP and we do not want a past experience impairing us at all.

And for DLN, sure, you have received a hefty load of accusations and hate from the NS community. But I know that you are only doing your job. People take actions more than someone's words. Don't let that impair you at all. You do a good job and you're a fun person to talk to when I occasionally roll around on TET. As Eemeria said, you're a true person and it took courage to write what you did. I thank you for that. Keep striving to make this forum a better experience for all of us. ^.^

I second this post wholeheartedly

[Delmonte]

Quite frankly, I have a bit of a hard time taking your apology seriously.

Ralkovia made a spammy thread to try and elicit angry responses and got them, in a long and pretty awful exercise all around. You joined in on the fun for shits and giggles knowing full well how it would progress, and the only thing you didn't consciously expect was the degree to which Nathanica would bring down the hammer on you. Moreover, in spamming the way you did, you weren't just consuming bandwidth, you were mocking the new or inexperienced RP'ers you're supposed to be helping - that's just not acceptable from someone with the 'Mentor' title.

Were I a mod, I would have given out much harsher bans and gone through the steps to initiate a review of your Mentorship. Which is, admittedly, why I'd make a pretty awful mod, but that's my two cents anyway.

Oh for Gods Sake, lay off will you. Yes the guy made a mistake, doesn't everyone? I'm sure you've made mistakes in your life, or am I wrong and you're a perfect human being who has never slipped up? If so please allow me to bow down to your perfection. Onto my point, its people like you that make this community bad, people who take a mistake and turn it into the biggest f*cking deal (pardon my French). I challenge you to not make a single mistake for the next year THEN you may come and challenge Virana. Now yes I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but yours is as blasphemous as Mussolini's opinions on how to run a nation.

And onto Nathacina's post, you've been slagged off a bit in this thread and its shows how much courage you truly have to write something like that. People tend to see a persons actions and mistake them for what they truly are. I will put you on the same boat as Virana, you may have made a mistake but you're both true, honest people to stand up like this and apologize (even if the apology was not needed in some cases). Its good to see we still have people in this community who know when they've messed up. Virana has helped me in the past and he truly is a kindhearted person, I don't know much about Nathicana but I would hope you sailed the same boat.


Cheers.

Avenio's objections are being raised from the same place my initial objections were: Concern for our community. Only he didn't have the opportunity to vent steam like I did. While I think Virana's apology shows sincerity, nothing that Avenio wrote was unfair or unreasonable. We have something special here on NationStates and our ability to call each other to task is demonstrative of our pride in our own community and our willingness to self-examine. In short, being dismissive of Avenio's Cahiers de Doleances is unfair. And to accuse him of "making our community bad" is, quite frankly, outrageous.

[Avenio]

Oh for Gods Sake, lay off will you. Yes the guy made a mistake, doesn't everyone? I'm sure you've made mistakes in your life, or am I wrong and you're a perfect human being who has never slipped up? If so please allow me to bow down to your perfection.

I suggest you look up the difference between acts of commission and omission before you continue. It really might help you see where I'm coming from on this, particularly considering that Milograd and Virana both chose to take the position of Mentor.

Onto my point, its people like you that make this community bad, people who take a mistake and turn it into the biggest f*cking deal (pardon my French). I challenge you to not make a single mistake for the next year THEN you may come and challenge Virana. Now yes I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but yours is as blasphemous as Mussolini's opinions on how to run a nation.

Challenge? What, are we fighting with pistols at dawn or something? Calm down. I'm giving you my opinion, nothing more, nothing less.

[Eemeria]

Oh for Gods Sake, lay off will you. Yes the guy made a mistake, doesn't everyone? I'm sure you've made mistakes in your life, or am I wrong and you're a perfect human being who has never slipped up? If so please allow me to bow down to your perfection. Onto my point, its people like you that make this community bad, people who take a mistake and turn it into the biggest f*cking deal (pardon my French). I challenge you to not make a single mistake for the next year THEN you may come and challenge Virana. Now yes I agree everyone is entitled to their opinion but yours is as blasphemous as Mussolini's opinions on how to run a nation.

And onto Nathacina's post, you've been slagged off a bit in this thread and its shows how much courage you truly have to write something like that. People tend to see a persons actions and mistake them for what they truly are. I will put you on the same boat as Virana, you may have made a mistake but you're both true, honest people to stand up like this and apologize (even if the apology was not needed in some cases). Its good to see we still have people in this community who know when they've messed up. Virana has helped me in the past and he truly is a kindhearted person, I don't know much about Nathicana but I would hope you sailed the same boat.


Cheers.

Avenio's objections are being raised from the same place my initial objections were: Concern for our community. Only he didn't have the opportunity to vent steam like I did. While I think Virana's apology shows sincerity, nothing that Avenio wrote was unfair or unreasonable. We have something special here on NationStates and our ability to call each other to task is demonstrative of our pride in our own community and our willingness to self-examine. In short, being dismissive of Avenio's Cahiers de Doleances is unfair.

I'm not dismissing all the points in the statement, just his ability to write Virana off completely and his inability to realize humans make mistakes. I'm not saying Virana didn't mess up, just that how Avenio responded to it. Especially stating that he would go as far as to have his mentor title removed. I believe that humans make mistakes and that taking it that far would be unnecessary. Therefore I apologize for the way I approached with my response. My apologies Avenio, I should have been more calm with my response. No it certainly is not a challenge at dawn, I should not have approached it as such.

[ViZion]

I appreciate the level of maturity that some have shown in posting here, though I too don't feel an apology is really necessary.

We've all had times when we've shown less than stellar performance in something or other. It happens. And when it's a group thing, it happens more easily, as it's a simple enough matter to get caught up in the swing of things.

It has been rather telling seeing how various players have responded. For the most part, I've been rather impressed with the accountability and good-naturedness that has been illustrated by the longstanding and respected players who got caught up in this minor mess. Most seem to recognize it as the tap on the hand it was intended as, and haven't mistaken it for some career-ending guillotine of random mod-rage.

As I've stated elsewhere, there is nothing whatsoever to imply that our mentors need be overly-chastised, or to have their titles stripped or reduced. They do a great job, and a largely thankless one at that, and I hope that they continue to do so, assisting to improve the standards many users have increasingly asked for over the years, helping newer players to learn positive ways to interact with others, and in some cases, older players to unlearn the bad habits they may have picked up in their course of play, or to repair a damaged reputation developed from inexperience or youthful indiscretions.

I'm sorry some took my action as a 'tantrum' or 'moment of rage' or what not. It wasn't. I don't mod when angry. I simply don't coddle or hand-hold, and it's simple enough to translate bluntness to anger - especially, I've noticed, when it comes from a woman on the internet. It was a statement to address a rather long-standing problem that's been cluttering up the RP forums, some more than others, for a very, very long time. And as we have a place for the silly, it was inappropriate to carry on like that here, where it did not belong. Most folks seem to recognize that. Some refuse to. I'm more than content to let the general public decide how to react to some of the attitudes and opinions that have been brought to the forefront here. It wouldn't be the first, nor will it be the last time that hasty or angry words affected a player's reputation, or the circle of players willing to participate with them. Or contrarily, mature actions and responsible words done the same in a more positive light.

Best of luck to the lot of you. Please don't turn this into another spamfest. If you've complaints, you know where to take them. Thanks.

I think you handled it quite well - the 1 day ban was, as you said, a tap on the wrist. Nothing overly harsh, but clear enough to get the point across. And the fact you handed it out to all involved instead of singling certain individuals out is a definite positive. And I think most, if not all involved, have learned their lesson.

24 hours without NationStates killed nobody.

[Mefpan]

I guess it was warranted - anything past page one and it was obvious posting in it would flip all Bad End flags there are - still, I did decide to post. A silly spelling mistake somehow made the ban avoid me (Mepfan as opposed to Mefpan) but sat it out anyway.

I'm not sure if it's something to apologize for since no one was hurt in the first place - that 24h ban was just a call for everyone to calm down and shut up for a (rather long) moment. Everyone involved will remember not to engage in that kind of nonsense for the coming time. All that's left is for the next group to fall into the trap.

But yeah, there are plenty of places on the internet where that could've ended much more messily.

24 hours without NationStates killed nobody.

Well, that and we still had the RMBs. Many people sit in the same region as the people they get along with anyway, so it wasn't like there was anything being interrupted that couldn't or shouldn't be interrupted.

[Ganos Lao]

Ralkovia made a spammy thread to try and elicit angry responses and got them, in a long and pretty awful exercise all around. You joined in on the fun for shits and giggles knowing full well how it would progress, and the only thing you didn't consciously expect was the degree to which Nathanica would bring down the hammer on you. Moreover, in spamming the way you did, you weren't just consuming bandwidth, you were mocking the new or inexperienced RP'ers you're supposed to be helping - that's just not acceptable from someone with the 'Mentor' title.

This was exactly my own opinion when I first saw this all unfold, and I think that it sums up essentially the truth of the matter.

I mean, Milograd, who was on record for saying RPing on NS is essentially dead to the point we should grin and bear it (by accepting "less satisfying RP") or move off-site (like some of my NS friends already have, sadly), decides to contribute to the problem? I did not see the humor in the antics done in that thread, and to me it really is a case of people who really ought to know better when it comes to what they post on here - simple as that.

That all being said, I'm not going to doubt Virana's apology just yet. We need to give him a chance, Avenio. If he is truly willing to shape up, why knock him for it? Let us judge by actions before words. Same goes for anyone else who feels sorry about their involvement. I don't think we should remove Virana's (or anyone else's) mentorship unless this becomes a constant problem.

[Oaledonia]

Ralkovia made a spammy thread to try and elicit angry responses and got them, in a long and pretty awful exercise all around. You joined in on the fun for shits and giggles knowing full well how it would progress, and the only thing you didn't consciously expect was the degree to which Nathanica would bring down the hammer on you. Moreover, in spamming the way you did, you weren't just consuming bandwidth, you were mocking the new or inexperienced RP'ers you're supposed to be helping - that's just not acceptable from someone with the 'Mentor' title.

This was exactly my own opinion when I first saw this all unfold, and I think that it sums up essentially the truth of the matter.

I mean, Milograd, who was on record for saying RPing on NS is essentially dead to the point we should grin and bear it (by accepting "less satisfying RP") or move off-site (like some of my NS friends already have, sadly), decides to contribute to the problem? I did not see the humor in the antics done in that thread, and to me it really is a case of people who really ought to know better when it comes to what they post on here - simple as that.

That all being said, I'm not going to doubt Virana's apology just yet. We need to give him a chance, Avenio. If he is truly willing to shape up, why knock him for it? Let us judge by actions before words. Same goes for anyone else who feels sorry about their involvement. I don't think we should remove Virana's (or anyone else's) mentorship unless this becomes a constant problem.

Whoa now, this is big talk for someone who has just hastily deleted his posts from what is basically the same thread, after the moderation ban was applied.

[Ganos Lao]

This was exactly my own opinion when I first saw this all unfold, and I think that it sums up essentially the truth of the matter.

I mean, Milograd, who was on record for saying RPing on NS is essentially dead to the point we should grin and bear it (by accepting "less satisfying RP") or move off-site (like some of my NS friends already have, sadly), decides to contribute to the problem? I did not see the humor in the antics done in that thread, and to me it really is a case of people who really ought to know better when it comes to what they post on here - simple as that.

That all being said, I'm not going to doubt Virana's apology just yet. We need to give him a chance, Avenio. If he is truly willing to shape up, why knock him for it? Let us judge by actions before words. Same goes for anyone else who feels sorry about their involvement. I don't think we should remove Virana's (or anyone else's) mentorship unless this becomes a constant problem.

Whoa now, this is big talk for someone who has just hastily deleted his posts from what is basically the same thread, after the moderation ban was applied.

That's because i was trying to actually do legitimate roleplay, but then I figured I'd step out because I didn't feel like warring with Ralkovia (because he intended to protect the OP when my posts were geared towards me invading the OP)

[Oaledonia]

It was not hasty. I deleted my posts long before Ralk even made his thread.

You deleted your posts after DLN applied the ban, behold the legitimate roleplay

Kidda sucks that you can't delete another person's post, doesn't it?

[Ganos Lao]

It was not hasty. I deleted my posts long before Ralk even made his thread.

You deleted your posts after DLN applied the ban, behold the legitimate roleplay

Kidda sucks that you can't delete another person's post, doesn't it?

Whatever the case, it was not because of the ban I deleted my posts. I merely did not wish to fight Ralkovia, who sought to defend Akasa. I intended on invading him at some point.

My posts were legitimate when I had more time and such to write better. I posted messages from my military, etc about how the OP should cooperate. I asked the OP repeatedly for information about his country's geography and military capabilities (which is why Akasa mentions to go to his factbook for geography)

Lamoni and others can vouch for me on this since I was talking about it with them off NS around the time it was going on.

[Oaledonia]

My posts were legitimate when I had more time and such to write better. I posted messages from my military, etc. Lamoni and others can vouch for me on this since I was talking about it with them off NS around the time it was going on.

Regardless of the legitimacy, your posts are much shorter then the posts of Mefpan in that thread. Yet he was given a ban.

[Ganos Lao]

My posts were legitimate when I had more time and such to write better. I posted messages from my military, etc. Lamoni and others can vouch for me on this since I was talking about it with them off NS around the time it was going on.

Regardless of the legitimacy, your posts are much shorter then the posts of Mefpan in that thread. Yet he was given a ban.

Because I was not in the thread Ralk made entitled "Murder of Muslims".

I had no reason to be in that thread. I was only in Akasa's thread, and then after that I decided to focus on other stuff I am doing with other people.

And you only cited one post of mine. You don't know about the other posts I made. I would only have been banned if I was joining in the thread in question Mef was in, and if my posts were the sort of material that Nathi found disfavor with.

People weren't banned because of short posts. It's because of the content of said posts.

[Oaledonia]

People weren't banned because of short posts. It's because of the content of said posts.

Mef's post was legitimate as a response, try again.

[Tiami]

People weren't banned because of short posts. It's because of the content of said posts.

Mef's post was legitimate as a response, try again.

DLN has already responded to the topic in question.
Now, in order to prevent spam on this thread, I ask that you two take your conversation to TG, please.

[Ganos Lao]

People weren't banned because of short posts. It's because of the content of said posts.

Mef's post was legitimate as a response, try again.

Never meant to say his/her's wasn't. I was about to tweak my initial post there.

My initial post on Akasa's was not the equivalent of "tiami murders twenty-five million potatoes".

None of my posts were. I wasn't poking fun at Akasa in my posts OOCly or posting nonsensical posts. My posts were me trying to roleplay.

That is what I am saying.

Did I delete my posts? Yes. But that is because I decided to drop out. Doesn't mean I was afraid of some ban on a thread I wasn't even in. Plus, I have RPs going on that'd be disrupted if I went to war and I'd rather not lose those.

[Ganos Lao]

Mef's post was legitimate as a response, try again.

DLN has already responded to the topic in question.
Now, in order to prevent spam on this thread, I ask that you two take your conversation to TG, please.

Alright. Don't want to have spam on the thread.

[Mefpan]

As a last - I'm just going to openly say that I don't consider my posts legitimate.

The context of those posts really was not much more other than a "lol, I approve of this thread, is thread of year" wrapped in a very thick layer of words to make it look more ridiculous.

[The Black Plains]

DLN has already responded to the topic in question.
Now, in order to prevent spam on this thread, I ask that you two take your conversation to TG, please.

Alright. Don't want to have spam on the thread.

Indeed. Because then you might have to issue a formal apology.

What happened is very clear. Several experienced writers decided to host Cirque Du Smarm and were called out on it by respected writers. Some of the offending writers were Mentors. It is valid to hold Mentors to a higher standard given that they are given privileges on our forums and are supposed to occupy a higher echelon. Therefore complaints about Mentors mocking less experienced role players, spamming the threads and, this after having already been found to violate the site's PG-13 policy, are equally valid. An expectation to see this taken seriously is also valid. And it has not been taken seriously. No formal inquest was even contemplated.

I agree that it is obvious that their thread was clearly mocking a contemporaneous thread by a novice player. The fact that there is almost no indignation over that makes me question how much our community even cares about new players. What's the point of having Mentors if we disregard offenses on the part of said mentors against novices so summarily?

[Constaniana]

Alright. Don't want to have spam on the thread.

Indeed. Because then you might have to issue a formal apology.

What happened is very clear. Several experienced writers decided to host Cirque Du Smarm and were called out on it by respected writers. Some of the offending writers were Mentors. It is valid to hold Mentors to a higher standard given that they are given privileges on our forums and are supposed to occupy a higher echelon. Therefore complaints about Mentors mocking less experienced role players, spamming the threads and, this after having already been found to violate the site's PG-13 policy, are equally valid. An expectation to see this taken seriously is also valid. And it has not been taken seriously. No formal inquest was even contemplated.

I agree that it is obvious that their thread was clearly mocking a contemporaneous thread by a novice player. The fact that there is almost no indignation over that makes me question how much our community even cares about new players. What's the point of having Mentors if we disregard offenses on the part of said mentors against novices so summarily?

From my understanding Ralk commits genocides in his nation constantly, just like how genocides aren't some unique thing but rather a common trend in II. Ralk just went ahead and made this one less serious with the pay-per-view part in his OP and subsequent responses.

[Ganos Lao]

Indeed. Because then you might have to issue a formal apology.

What happened is very clear. Several experienced writers decided to host Cirque Du Smarm and were called out on it by respected writers. Some of the offending writers were Mentors. It is valid to hold Mentors to a higher standard given that they are given privileges on our forums and are supposed to occupy a higher echelon. Therefore complaints about Mentors mocking less experienced role players, spamming the threads and, this after having already been found to violate the site's PG-13 policy, are equally valid. An expectation to see this taken seriously is also valid. And it has not been taken seriously. No formal inquest was even contemplated.

I agree that it is obvious that their thread was clearly mocking a contemporaneous thread by a novice player. The fact that there is almost no indignation over that makes me question how much our community even cares about new players. What's the point of having Mentors if we disregard offenses on the part of said mentors against novices so summarily?

From my understanding Ralk commits genocides in his nation constantly, just like how genocides aren't some unique thing but rather a common trend in II. Ralk just went ahead and made this one less serious with the pay-per-view part in his OP and subsequent responses.

Ralk has always been up there as one of the evildoers of RPing, yes. He (and others like, say, Kraven) is, one could say, to evil what Lyras is to military tech.

[Avenio]

Ralk has always been up there as one of the evildoers of RPing, yes. He (and others like, say, Kraven) is, one could say, to evil what Lyras is to military tech.

There's a difference between RP'ing evil and trolling. Ralkovia's thread was almost certainly the latter, and several of the people that ended up getting bans participated in that attempt to troll.