POW and War Crime Conference in Ceruleo (Closed)

[Jeniferia]

"We all need to calm down abit we have plenty of time to discuss the Issues"

[DeusII]

Winston too also took this time to step outside, whisking out his phone he dialled the Command Building in the capital and began rapidly talking in Cevian. After a few minutes, he stepped back inside the room, before announcing: "If anyone has any objections, my colleague here will now be taking my place for a little while." He pointed at a slightly younger man, but dressed in a similar uniform but for the gold oak leaves on his collar. They man took Winston's chair and the began to speak, which the other left through the doors once more to continue his conversation.

"Sorry for that sight interruption my fellow delegates. Whilst we wait for Mr. Newton I will quickly introduce myself to you; I am SWAI Charles Ashley from the Imperial Diplomatic Team as is SWAI Entlasi, I will be performing his role and he may continue in a few hours."

[Fatatatutti]

There are ways to convince a POW to talk without laying a hand on him. I am not versed in these methods myself but I have seen them in use. Quite effective.

"Quite frankly, I don't believe you."

Her hand had reached down, almost without thought as she spoke, and was now idly scratching at the joint of her right knee.

General Castro-Stalina inclined her head toward Eschborn's leg, a gesture that was probably less than obvious. "I don't know if bad knees are a common ailment among paratroopers. I guess I'm more susceptible than some because when I jump, my equipment weighs more than I do. I suppose I could get somebody else to carry even my own equipment, but that would hardly be good etiquette, would it? Who would follow an officer who endangers other people's lives by demanding perks? So I carry spare ammo for the SAW and sometimes a bag of spare grenades, but my little knees don't like it.

She paused. "One time, I had a mortar shell go off a few meters away. Luckily, I was too small a target for the shrapnel but the concussion knocked me out. One of my troopers picked me up by the web gear and carried me out like a suitcase. Ever since then, I've been skittish about loud noises. But on the bright side, I can't hear them as well as I used to.

"On the other hand, General Eschborn, I think you haven't been quite as lucky. My rule is to stand close to somebody who's a bigger target, but I guess you don't have that option."

[DeusII]

"Can we not save this discussion of who has the better injury for dinner, friends?"

[Fatatatutti]

"Can we not save this discussion of who has the better injury for dinner, friends?"

"I'm just waiting for an answer to my question," the general said, returning to the careful examination of her pencil. Zen pencil, she said to herself. "If you're sincere about improving the situation, why do you insist that everything you're already doing is right and every improvement I suggest is wrong?"

[Romandeos]

IC:

"You're free to believe what you like, General," Eschborn said calmly. "I know what I've seen. If you'd like, I could speak to some friends of mine in the Intelligence Office and ask if a loan of some non classified videos could be arranged, showcasing the techniques in question. I couldn't get them here in time for this summit, of course, so it'd be a private showing if you will."

Her eyes shifted down to her knee when Castro-Stalina mentioned injuries, as though she was only now noticing what she had been doing. Her hand paused mid-motion and clenched in to a fist, then relaxed.

"Ah," she said. "Myapologies to you all if I have disturbed anybody." Her hand clenched in to a fist and rapped on the leg below the knee, producing a hollow, thumping sound.

"It's fake," she said. "From the knee down. I was much younger, just a captain when it happened, leading an Airborne Assault company against some rebel insurgents. Some damned idiot had got his hands on an M203 and fired a grenade at me. Fortunately the damn fool was so damn foolish he didn't know how to read the numbers indicating grenade type, so he launched an AT grenade at me. Not nearly as much shrapnel. I only lost a leg, and I managed to get him back before I collapsed."

Her face twisted in to a grin.

"It creaks and itches a lot at times, and I suppose I could get one made from something more modern than steel and aluminum, but I still like to skydive, and so I need something durable."

[Ceruleo]

"General Castro-Stalina, he only one I've heard saying their way is absolutely right is you.

"My country does not have any prohibition against torture. Our military's procedure manual proscribes limits, but we can do whatever we want legally. My experience has taught me the value of interrogations and I'm also well aware of torture and it's effects on people. I do not think it's militarily wise to squander an intelligence resource. I haven't dismissed your opinion. I've disagreed with you as it pertains to this agreement.

"I conceded points about who qualifies as a POW, but so far, I haven't seen you offer a single concession. It's what you want or nothing. You won't even discuss compromise on this issue, because it's not what you exactly the way you'd like it."

[DeusII]

"We're not saying we're absolutely right, General. Just your suggestions put forth to the table seem a little too impractical and ridiculous for other nations."

[Fatatatutti]

"General Castro-Stalina, he only one I've heard saying their way is absolutely right is you.

"You haven't heard me say any such thing. You've heard me say that I'm open to any suggestions on how my country can improve. I haven't heard any yet."

"I conceded points about who qualifies as a POW, but so far, I haven't seen you offer a single concession.

"This is what I keep asking you: If we make concessions left and right, what are we left with but the status quo? How can we improve anything without making changes?"

It's what you want or nothing. You won't even discuss compromise on this issue, because it's not what you exactly the way you'd like it.

The general laughed out loud. "We're not even close to what I want. We're not even in the ballpark."

She shook her head, still laughing. "You seem to think you can impose your level on nations that aren't even here. I want to raise you to our level and then I want to raise both of our levels even higher."

[Romandeos]

IC:

"General, may I make a suggestion?" Eschborn asked. "Not to sound rude or humorous, but this whole 'We Eat People' business...is it really necessary? I mean, I'm sure it serves an important purpose, but there must be less stomach-turning ways to sap enemy morale."

"Regarding the status quo, there can be no improvement without change, but I will remind the assembly that not all change constitutes improvement. My nation would be willing to hold to a ban on needless physical and mental tortures, if that was what came of this meeting. Seeing as how most torture is, in fact, needless, that would pretty much eliminate any kind of chance of POWs being tortured the next time Romandeos enters a conflict."

[Fatatatutti]

"General, may I make a suggestion?" Eschborn asked. "Not to sound rude or humorous, but this whole 'We Eat People' business...is it really necessary? I mean, I'm sure it serves an important purpose, but there must be less stomach-turning ways to sap enemy morale."

General Castro-Stalina raised an eyebrow. "We're talking about prisoners of war and war crimes here. If you want to designate eating the dead as a war crime, we're certainly open to discuss that. Survivors of plane crashes and shipwrecks might have something to say about that.

"And just to clarify, we haven't actually practiced eating our enemies for two hundred years. It might be more productive to devote our time to discussing actual practices."

"My nation would be willing to hold to a ban on needless physical and mental torture, if that was what came of this meeting. Seeing as how most torture is, in face, needless, that would pretty much eliminate any kind of chance of POWs being tortured the next time Romandeos enters a conflict."

"I'm disappointed that even you don't seem to be listening, General Eschborn. Banning torture is something that all civilized nations have done generations ago. Uncivilized nations aren't going to give it up just because you sign a paper.

"You can't improve the treatment of prisoners unless you set an example."

She felt an almost overwhelming desire to throw her pencil at somebody, but she realized that that would rather negate her point.

[Romandeos]

IC:

"I meant tortured by us, General, not any enemies we may happen to face. We try to set as much example as we can without weakening ourselves. Nobody is questioned at all unless it seems probable they have valuable information. Even then, as I said earlier, we have interrogation methods which involve no physical violence. Hell, the subject is sitting a lot of the time during interrogations. He is bloody sitting. On a bench. It is not a very comfortable bench, but that is part of the technique. Is asking a man what unit he was posted to a torture?"

Eschborn was rocking back and forth once again. Still creaking.

[Fatatatutti]

Is asking a man what unit he was posted to a torture?

"That's why it seems like you're not listening. I have said repeatedly that I am not talking about torture.

"I'm saying that interrogation is against your own interests because of what your enemy might interpret as 'appropriate' interrogation of your troops. If you maintain an ethical position, you can hope that your enemy will too. If you don't, you have no reason to expect your enemy to behave better than you.

"We don't consider humanity a weakness. If missing out on some information endangers my troops, then so be it. They're prepared to risk their lives for their principles. They wouldn't respect me if I didn't uphold those principles."

[Jeniferia]

"We only use our methods of torture on People who have infomation but we are getting no were thanks to cerulo"

[Romandeos]

IC:

"I believe I understand what you're saying, General," Eschborn said, taking a drag from her neglected cigarello. "I am not sure, however, that I can fully agree with you. That reason I'm saying that is that interrogation, in itself, is not always harmful. I've said repeatedly the methods we use by default involve no physical harm. If any nation sees this as excuse to harm Romandeosian POWs physically during interrogation, something is wrong with that nation to begin with. If we can get the information without causing them harm, why not get it from them? If the enemy uses that as an excuse to smack Romandeosian POWs around during interrogations, well, as you said, they have no right to excpect more from us."

[Fatatatutti]

That reason I'm saying that is that interrogation, in itself, is not always harmful.

"Harm has nothing to do with it. If you rape somebody gently, does that make it right? if you steal from a rich man who won't notice the loss, does that make it right?

"What I'm saying is that if you condone rape at all or if you condone theft at all, then you've already sold out your morality and you're only haggling about the price."

[DeusII]

"Torture and interrogation are two different things, General. You can do one without practising the other with ease."

[Libertarian Governance]

"I would say we are unlikely to agree on allowing torture or this so called interrogation. So, I request we should take a vote. Nations willing to ban torture in their entirety please say Aye...those wanting to proceed with war crimes under the guise of interrogations please say nay. "

"If the ayes are greater LG will continue in this conference on the other hand if the nays are greater I have better things to do at home."

"Our vote is aye."






OOC: Most of you are advocating things banned by the Geneve conventions and as such war crimes.

[DeusII]

"Not once has the empire suggested torture, infact it is punishable by death in the empire, the same is true for prisoners of war. We must stress the difference of torture and that of common interrogation techniques like those of police officers. We also believe mental torture as suggested by some is far worse than physical torture."

[Fatatatutti]

We must stress the difference of torture and that of common interrogation techniques like those of police officers.

"Thank you for bringing that up," General Castro-Stalina said. "That's another reason why POWs should not be interrogated.

"POWs can be detained indefinitely, without charge. They have no right to legal counsel. In many ways, they are already treated worse than your worst criminals.

"Name, rank and serial number has been the standard among civilized nations for a long time. I don't understand why you want to lower that standard and call it progress."

[Ceruleo]

Newton leaned back, it was a better time when the government didn't try to involve itself with other nations. These people had no idea of decorum, were opening direspectful and racist. Newton missed when he could negotiate with people, like himself, who understood compromise was necessary in any agreement.

"We might be at an impasse. I'm willing to ban torture, but not interogation."

[Ceruleo]

"Yeah, except the a POW can never be executed. They do have access to legal counsel. They have the right to bring a motion of habeas corpus under certain circumstances. Certain POWs may be given parole in exchange for guarantees that they will not take up arms against us in the current war or for familial hardship. Accomodations are as good as they can be. Also, our policy recognizes POWs as a special status and not criminals. We try and make the stay of POWs as easy as possible."

[Libertarian Governance]

"Well, do I take it that three of us are willing to ban torture. I have no idea of what General Stalina is rambling on about but it is giving me a headache. What General do you support Torture of POWs or not? If we can agree that torture is wrong can we say as a start that POWs shall not be subjected to mental or physical torture? If we can agree we can move on to another matter in the proposal under the required humane treatment of prisoners of war section"

[Fatatatutti]

I have no idea of what General Stalina is rambling on about but it is giving me a headache.

"Castro-Stalina."

What General do you support Torture of POWs or not?

"I don't know how you could possibly get that from anything I've said here.

"I've said that torture is unthinkable. Of course, I've told you my name too, more than once, and you can't seem to understand that either.

"Torture doesn't need to be on the table at all. Civilized nations don't use torture. I don't know why you're all so obsessed with torture when it was banned generations ago in all civilized nations.

"And I don't know why you're all insisting on taking a step backward from the accepted principle of name, rank and serial number."

[Libertarian Governance]

"Why are you insisting on arguing points into the ground, Stalina. If we can all agree that torture is banned then we can move on to the next subject. Which would be the interrogations. Frankly, you are wrong there too the common accepted practice is that there is no coercing which doesn't prevent a country from asking questions it simply doesn't allow those countries to torture the answers out of the soldier."