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POW and War Crime Conference in Ceruleo (Closed)

A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events. [In character]

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Ceruleo
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Founded: Nov 07, 2009
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Postby Ceruleo » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:54 pm

"You've obviously never been in any sort of sustained combat. Every man has his own limit and you start to see it. You can look at a man and you can see the walls coming down and if you don't pull that guy off of the line, they're going to be useless. We used to call it shell shock, then battle fatigue and now we call it combat stress reaction and post traumatic stress disorder. It's a fact. People aren't robots so they shouldn't be considered treasonous if when they've gone through hell for six months, a year, two and have suffered more than any man should ever suffer in one day, they are a casualty and not responsible for treason. Some men do break and go berserk, others break and give up.

"People are going to question prisoners, it's going to happen. We can either set guidelines or force the action to be conducted in an unregulated way behind the scenes. I suggest setting guidelines for questioning of soldiers. Just because the agreement would allow soldiers to answer questions, doesn't mean that you have to ask if your nation doesn't want to."
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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Ceruleo
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Founded: Nov 07, 2009
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Postby Ceruleo » Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:56 pm

"Also, if you would hold such actions against your own soldiers, to the same level of traitors and treasonous snakes, I would suggest that you are not so as enlightened as you would have us think."
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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Fatatatutti
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Postby Fatatatutti » Sat Dec 12, 2009 11:12 pm

Ceruleo wrote:You can look at a man and you can see the walls coming down and if you don't pull that guy off of the line, they're going to be useless.

"That's exactly what I'm saying. Those men are pulled off the line, so they're not the ones who are captured."

People are going to question prisoners, it's going to happen. We can either set guidelines or force the action to be conducted in an unregulated way behind the scenes.

"We already have a guideline: no interrogation of prisoners except to get contact information for their families. Anybody who does otherwise is a war criminal.

"We're trying to improve the situation, remember? Constantly harping on what nations already do isn't going to accomplish that. We need to focus on what the situation should be."

Also, if you would hold such actions against your own soldiers, to the same level of traitors and treasonous snakes, I would suggest that you are not so as enlightened as you would have us think.

"I'm not talking about holding anything against my soldiers. I'm talking about you holding it against your soldiers when they tell me everything they know about your battle plans. I wouldn't put a soldier - even an enemy soldier - in a position where he had to betray his own country."

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DeusII
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Founded: Dec 07, 2007
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Postby DeusII » Sun Dec 13, 2009 1:34 am

"Could you please remind us, general, when your nation was loosing thousands of civilians a day, and you were in the war room making descisions using hundreds of thousands of troops? That's when you want infomation from the enemy.

"Anyone who shoots their soldiers for treason if they do say anything is a fool, it is as a natural part of war as rifles. If you refuse to allow interrogation techniques for useful infomation then you will not be able to get anywhere in this conference, especially if you're calling us war criminals.

"Your continual stating of how treaties are for those who need guidance I think is also ridiculous, it's about showing other nations what can be done to help everyone, which us actually what you said earlier. Again, if any representative here wished to be weaseling out of making progress they would not have attended this voluntary international conference."
Last edited by DeusII on Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
Have you seen people acting suspiciously? They are probably a member of the Resistance. Contact your local State Security office immediately and do your duty to protect your home and family.
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Ceruleo
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Founded: Nov 07, 2009
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Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:13 am

Newton involuntarily applauded. Becoming immediately sensible of the impropriety, he scribbled on his papers, and extinguished the last frail bit of ink, from his pen, for ever.
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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Ceruleo
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Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:03 am

"Just an idea, how about we tie the way in which we can interrogate enemy POWs to our own interrogation resistance training. We've talked about providing POWs the same nourishment that we provide our own troops. How about agreeing to put POWs through our own respective SERE training courses, minus the instruction in resisting interrogation of course. Surely, if you're willing to do something to your own troops, it's not too harsh to do to a POW."
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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Libertarian Governance
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Founded: Oct 08, 2009
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Postby Libertarian Governance » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:09 am

"Why don't we just remove that section of the treaty in its entirety? We will certainly not sign anything authorizing the torture of LGDF soldiers, maintaining they don't have the right to escape from capture or any other ridiculous notion. Or better yet, perhaps we should just go back to the first part of the treaty and allow the rules and common courtesies of war to be thrown out as well. After all if our troops are going to be tortured we might as well let them terrorize the enemies civilians for supporting such regimes. "

She looks around at the delegates with barely contained outrage. Then looking at the General Castro-Stalina sighs heavily.
Stand up, it's time to rise. It's time for revenge, opposition must die
Chaos, violence, revolution now! - GG Allin



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Ceruleo
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Founded: Nov 07, 2009
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Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:21 am

"Ms. Antov, would you agree that interrogation, and I don't mean torture, I mean asking questions and trying to gain intel is a necessary part of war? Our intelligence services don't have carte blanche to do whatever they want. It literally takes an act of the Senate to authorize more vigorous interrogation methods beyond bribes, withholding food for no more than 36 hours and threatening POWs. Without Senate approval, that's the limit of what our soldiers can do to a POW. We feel that those measures are very reasonable, we would like expanded rules to include basically what we do to our own soldiers during SERE, but we're not married to the idea."
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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DeusII
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Postby DeusII » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:26 am

"I don't think anyone is suggesting that POWs are not allowed to escape, many would say it was their duty to do so - but that does not mean the act can not be punished. I also agree with the delegate from Ceruleo; we are not suggesting waterboarding and breaking bones, here.
Have you seen people acting suspiciously? They are probably a member of the Resistance. Contact your local State Security office immediately and do your duty to protect your home and family.
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Ceruleo
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Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:33 am

Newton shifted nervously, "While I'm not suggesting it be allowed, we do waterboard our troops during SERE training. Just a dusting of it, as it were. And once again we're not endorsing it to be allowed per this agreement, but about 5% of our soldiers are delayed in their entry into Phase VI, if accepted, which is our advanced tactics portion due to broken fingers."
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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DeusII
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Postby DeusII » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:38 am

"There will always be some cases where exceptions must be made, but I'm discussing what we believe the average POW should be subjected to."
Have you seen people acting suspiciously? They are probably a member of the Resistance. Contact your local State Security office immediately and do your duty to protect your home and family.
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Ceruleo
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Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:43 am

"You should speak up more, good sir, I've become so accustomed to speaking with our esteemed colleague from Fatatatutti that I had forgotten that some people understood the purpose of this document is to address the majority and not the very rare exception."
Last edited by Ceruleo on Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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Libertarian Governance
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Founded: Oct 08, 2009
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Postby Libertarian Governance » Sun Dec 13, 2009 4:55 am

"You can certainly ask a person a question it is how you are asking the question that concerns us and whether the person asked is compelled to answer. Its real simple if you torture our people yours will get it 100 times worst. Withholding food is torture and if we did it to a common thief or murderer in LG it is ground for criminal charges on the authorities. Even bread and water rations for military personnel are strictly, very strictly regulated and accompanied by regular medical exams."

"Do you know how many of our ancestors have been tortured? Do you have any clue how many members of our families have been tortured for piracy this or piracy that or just because they were good at killing enemy forces? We will not let it stand. Not on our troops."

Taking a deep breath to try to calm herself she continues. "Our nation was founded by people that were " she chuckles "perhaps rightfully referred to as pirates. But those fleets with sailors of every ancestry and religion spawned a nation where discrimination has never existed. Where our ingrained distastes for authority has made our nation one of the freest in the world with a constitution with stricter restriction on government action then any other. I am not naive I understand fully how government behaves and misbehaves but no one in my nation except perhaps a few sadist in intelligence actually supports torture and no regular unit has ever, ever practiced it."

"You best remove this whole section"
Stand up, it's time to rise. It's time for revenge, opposition must die
Chaos, violence, revolution now! - GG Allin



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Ceruleo
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Founded: Nov 07, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:19 am

"If it's not a problem for the rest of the group, I'd request a short recess. We've been here for several hours and there's food for the delegates and restrooms are down the hall by the stairs. ." Before anyone could object, Newton had stood up and left the room. As she exited the meeting room, Newton spirited Antov across the hall into another soundproofed meeting room.

"If you want to prohibit torture of your guys, shouldn't this section absolutely exist? And I disagree that withholding food for 36 hours is torture. If your personal constitution is weak enough to feel that your being tortured by 36 hours without solid food, then it'd be pretty obvious why you surrendered.

"I must stand pat when it comes to protections for interrogations, something equivalent to a standard police interrogation in a civilized nation. At the same time, my nation will not give up on a ban against outright torture. A line must be drawn and it must be clear so that the interrogators, as well as the POW, know where it's at. Interrogations and questioning POWs to acquire intel is going to be done, it is a military necessity. Ceruleo doesn't have loft ideals on one hand and convenient "turkey doctors" to get this stuff in the other, we like to do our undesirable work under the light of public scrutiny to prevent abuses of power."

As Newton spoke, he became more angry and was happy that he had stepped out of the room as dictated by Cerulean standards of decorum. It was a grave dishonor to admonish one friends in front of others and the LG was considered a friend by the Cerulean government, both for their military assistance in the past and the similarity of their political ideals.

"As a representative of my nation, I feel greatly ashamed to say this about a country we hold in high esteem, but it is horribly hypocritical of the Libertarian Governance to condemn our efforts for a clear and defined guideline regarding interrogations when they have an entire segment of their government dedicated, constitutionally protected no less, dedicated to crap that is, by many magnitudes, more brutal than the methods we seek to protect and regulate. Madam, I am offended by the temerity of the Libertarian Governance that touts the freedom provided by their constitution, a document that also protects abhorrent actions no truly civilized people would should condone.

"I have spent a fair amount of time in your fine country and I believe that the general philosophies of the people of our two nations are very similar. Your people believe in the freedom provided by the best government, the one that governs least, while at the same time accepting the practices of your intelligence community. The incongruity is maddeningly absurd to an outside observer and it should be to you and all of your people. We're not going to dictate how you run your government. It's not our place and we have no right. I've held my tongue about your nations dirty little open secret and will continue to do so in public."

"It's not proper to air a friends dirty laundry for all to see, but because our nation doesn't suffer from a cancerous hypocrisy, we should not be derailed in our attempt to set guidelines. To set REASONABLE guidelines. It was our expectation to ignore the LG's problem, like I said it isn't our place to tell you how to conduct your affairs and the shit that your psychopathic intel guys do is done in secret and we'd hope you'd have the propriety to keep it there so as to not undermine this agreement."

Following the outburst, Newton pulled out his pack of Fortuitous Strike cigarettes and tried to light one. Finding his lighter empty, he popped his head out into the hall and called to one of the guard, "Sergeant, get your ass over her and give me your lighter!" With the sergeant's lighter, Newton closed the door and faced Antov, while smoking almost the entire cigarette in two drags.

"And another thing, with the current political climate in my nation, if someone was torturing your boys, there'd be about 90 million Ceruleans calling for a full military mobilization and they'd refuse to stop until they'd stomped out the guts of whoever had screwed over the almighty, glorious LG. We had to ask for your help because we had just formed a new government, we're rapidly getting all of our crap together and our military will be at prerepublic strength within the year."
Last edited by Ceruleo on Sun Dec 13, 2009 7:32 am, edited 3 times in total.
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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Libertarian Governance
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Postby Libertarian Governance » Sun Dec 13, 2009 8:39 am

Susan smiles at Newton while he speaks. "First off, anyone found to be torturing our soldiers would find their cities being glassed over so quick it would make their freaking heads spin. Your proposals are neither reasonable nor needed. These are war crimes you are talking about. War crimes. TORTURE is a war crime. Denying POWs food is a war crime."

Pausing for a moment she continues "Even in Ceruleo intel did not starve communist prisoners. They used drugs and psychological manipulation to get their information, far more effective I am told then beatings, electrocutions and starvation. Such things are mental torture to be sure but cause no physical harm. But how effective really was this tortured info? truth be told it was our electronic intel gathering that provided the edge over the enemy with special forces in the bush. It was payments to informants, bounties on leaders that provided reliable targets not a few hundred names or locations gathered by chemical interrogation."

"I don't care what our constitution allows or what the high court says it allows. Even with the leeway given our intel agencies they could never torture a citizen or any non-enemy in LG or out. There are checks and balances so that it isn't just something they can do whenever they get a hard on. Multiple branches of government have to approve the designation of an entity or its members as an enemy and there are regular reviews. Eventhough, they need to be stopped from using torture as much as anyone else."

"Police interrogation is fine. But when it is coerced it needs to be stopped. We wouldn't let a prisoner be beaten and neither should we allow troops to be beaten. No soldier should be required to give up anything but name, rank and serial number. Civilized people should not require any soldier to talk or else."

"Now, LG is willing to fix by treaty what would be a serious problem in all likelihood to fix by constitutional amendment. We are willing to restrict some actions if other nations are as well. But if ours are being subjected to torture under any guise then we will reserve the right to respond in kind and in fact with overwhelming and merciless retaliation."
Stand up, it's time to rise. It's time for revenge, opposition must die
Chaos, violence, revolution now! - GG Allin



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Fatatatutti
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Founded: Jun 02, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Fatatatutti » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:08 am

DeusII wrote:Could you please remind us, general, when your nation was loosing thousands of civilians a day, and you were in the war room making descisions using hundreds of thousands of troops?

"We don't have a war room," the general said. "I command in the field.

"And what makes you think losing thousands of civilians a day is an excuse to throw ethics out the window?"

Again, if any representative here wished to be weaseling out of making progress they would not have attended this voluntary international conference."

"If that was true, you wouldn't be trying to erode the ethical treatment of prisoners.

"Instead of just scoffing at what I say, why don't you address the points that i make?

"I am not the one who charges soldiers with treason if they give information to the enemy. We don't even have a concept of treason in Fatatatutti. But you, how do you tell the difference between a prisoner who gives up information inadvertently and a soldier who willingly, eagerly commits treason by giving the same information to the enemy voluntarily?

"That's what i'm trying to get through to you. Banning interrogation is for the protection of our own soldiers. That's more important than any dubious information that we might get by interrogating theirs."

Ceruleo wrote:"You should speak up more, good sir, I've become so accustomed to speaking with our esteemed colleague from Fatatatutti that I had forgotten that some people understood the purpose of this document is to address the majority and not the very rare exception."

"Nonsense," the general said. "The majority won't pay any attention to your treaty. There's only a handful of us here and most of you are just looking for justification for mistreating prisoners.

"We're not here to raise the standards of nations that aren't even interested in the treaty. We're here to raise our own standards. And yes, that does include Fatatatutti's standards. If there's anything we can do to improve our treatment of prisoners, I'm eager to hear about it."

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Ceruleo
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Founded: Nov 07, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:15 am

"What I'm trying to get put into this thing is that it's okay to bribe POWs for information. I think it should even be okay to lie to a POW within reason to get info. Basically what police are allowed to do. Torture is bad and electronics means are better, we agree, but we want to have the ability to ask questions. We have the notifications of rights in my country when you're questioned by the police in my country, would you object to something similar if I brought it up?

"My military advisers want to have the right to ask questions, to make things uncomfortable for a POW and try to get information. You don't have to say anything, the right to remain silent and all of that, but I don't think it's beyond reason to put a guy in a room and leave him there for a few hours and then ask him some questions. It works for the police and we have a very strong record, both investigatory and in the preservation of rights, using the very same system I would like to preserve with regards to POWs. The 'general' from Fatatuey or whatever, thinks you can win a war playing footsie with their enemies and that asking someone a question or trying to bribe a guy is tantamount to entrapment and should be made illegal. I disagree and I think there are situations were all the fancy gadgets don't amount to a couple of guys on the ground.

"We talked with the Cerulean Cooperation and Comrade Leader, or whatever they're calling him, Tangretti pointed out some interesting things. The forces loyal to him didn't use electronics because of the hell storm you'd rain on them. They worked around it in your areas of operations. Tangretti was serving up forces loyal to Steelman while keeping his forces out of you cross hairs. I served with Tangretti in the old army, he's not lying. Sometimes it's more of the man than the machine that wins a war."

"Sir," the sergeant, whose lighter Newton had taken, popped his head in the door, "The food service will be complete in ten minutes if you want to get a bite to eat."

Newton followed Antov out of the room and while she went to the dining hall, Newton went to the men's room and washed his hands and face. These multinational negotiations were not his forte, but he hoped he was making progress. He arrived back to the meeting room at the same time as the others and took his seat. "I believe we were discussing the rights of the capturing party to question POWs."
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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Fatatatutti
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Postby Fatatatutti » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:26 am

Ceruleo wrote:I believe we were discussing the rights of the capturing party to question POWs.

General Castro-Stalina looked at the proposal in front of her although she had long since memorized it. "The question is to you: How do you justify endangering your own soldiers who are captured by allowing the other side to interrogate them?"

She looked around at the other delegates. "Some of you have already admitted to waterboarding, which is torture, which is a war crime. How do you expect your treaty to carry any weight at all in the rest of the world when your own behaviour is so uncivilized?"

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Ceruleo
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Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:55 am

As they sat down, Newton had a dictionary sitting conspicuously in front of him. He felt he was the wrong person for this task. Newton had a reputation of a bit of a long fuse, but when he got mad he was generally snide to the target of his anger.

"Yeah, literally every interrogation technique we use is the same as what we put our own troops through during their SERE training, including the follow up psychological counseling we provide for our own soldiers. We're really not as bad you seem to think.

"We're trying to preserve the right to interrogate, a verb which means 'to ask questions of a person, sometimes to seek answers or information that the person questioned considers personal or secret.' You're trying to prevent torture, which means 'the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.' Different words mean different things. You see this pen is blue. That means that it is a different color that red. Those are different words too. Different words. Different meanings.

"Wait, wait, wait. A word is 'a unit of language, consisting of one or more spoken sounds or their written representation, that functions as a principal carrier of meaning. Words are composed of one or more morphemes and are either the smallest units susceptible of independent use or consist of two or three such units combined under certain linking conditions.'

"How many of those words do I need to explain the definition. I'm willing to be just as condescending as you Mrs. Stalin." As General Stalina began to speak, Newton cut her off, "Condescending: When one, that would be me in this case, descend to the level of one considered inferior, and that would be you.

"It'd probably save some time if you had a dictionary so you could look up words as went, wait... you can read. Can't you? Or do you not have schools either, just learnin' all you need to know in some field somewhere."

"Now can I stop treating you like I think you're a little girl who got into her daddy's closet? Can you stop treating me like I'm a knuckle dragging moron? Can we show each other the professional courtesy I've tried to show to you? Maybe stop making insults towards us oh-so-unenlightened cavemen? If not, I can continue explaining the differences between words and what they mean. Either way, I get paid."
Last edited by Ceruleo on Sun Dec 13, 2009 9:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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Libertarian Governance
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Founded: Oct 08, 2009
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Postby Libertarian Governance » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:10 am

"We have no objection to questioning in line with what civilized people allow of criminal suspects. But acts that in our view would be war crimes we say no to. That includes restrictions on a prisoners diet."
Stand up, it's time to rise. It's time for revenge, opposition must die
Chaos, violence, revolution now! - GG Allin



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Romandeos
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Postby Romandeos » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:11 am

IC:

"Romandeos generally accepts it as a given that most enemies we face do not behave very well in dealing with POWs. More nations than not in this world see torture not as a right, but as a necessity. They seem to imagine that, if they are brutal enough, we will simply lose the will to fight. I'm not entirely sure how killing surrendered soldiers will encourage the men who knew the murdered to give up the fight themselves, but that is what many of them seem to believe will happen."

"Regarding this new behavior, Mr. Newton, there is no Mrs. Stalin here, to my knowledge, but there is a General Castro-Stalina. The fact that she has been condescending, and maybe sounds a bit arrogant and preachy, does not excuse you behaving like a puerile, snarky curmudgeon. Yeah, we uniformed knuckle-draggers can throw big words around, too, a lot of them. I studied General Castro-Stalina's profile before coming here. She's actually quite accomplished. She's run peacekeeping missions in several nations, spoke as a diplomat in numerous conferences and such like, is a wounded combat veteran, and once circumnavigated her homeland alone in a yacht. What have you done lately, Mr. Newton?"

Eschborn leaned back at this. That odd creaking sound accompanied the move.

"Now, can you both calm down and behave before this whole thing falls apart?"
Last edited by Romandeos on Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
If you RP with me, you are choosing to acknowledge The Shift by default. No negotiations.


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Yo’ur spalling ability and use of gamrmer is artcioous.

Facts and Figures of Life

The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant.

The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the world.

Things are more like they are today than they ever were before.

Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.

Friends may come and go but enemies accumulate.

I have seen the truth and it makes no sense.

If you think there is good in everybody, you haven’t met everybody.

RIP Tanaara: 1/17/10.

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Ceruleo
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Founded: Nov 07, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:40 am

"I served four tours in Delnok, received the Medal of Heroism. I have to eat a specially balanced diet because I lost part of my intestines on my forth tour. Despite being 46 years old with a messed up knee from the grenade I happened to be laying on when it exploded, I was re certified in airborne operations earlier this year. I held the rank of General of the Cerulean Crown in the old government. I received my appointment as ambassador of the Libertarian Governance as a 'reward' for my service." As Newton said the word reward, his voice broke slightly as though the taste of it was repulsive.

"I've done a few things, seen some things, been in the field. So I'm sorry if I don't care to be condescended to. I'm sorry you took such offense to an attack on your partner's honor, but the job I was told to do is to come here and try to make the world a slightly better place. If this document sets out reasonable guidelines, it is the planned position of my government to levy tariffs for those who don't sign it and to reject any alliance with a nation that doesn't abide by its principles. This isn't supposed to be a document to make war all nice and pretty, it's supposed to be a document that makes it a little better than it was.

"No one wants you to rubber stamp anything, but when you won't budge, when you condescendingly won't budge, it doesn't do anything to help us towards our goal. My nation hopes to get a working agreement out of this. Then we hope to revisit it in a few years and try to get a little better agreement. The biggest problem that people seem to have, everywhere in the world, is that people aren't willing to cut the problem by 5% or 10% at a time. They want the whole thing, right now. All or nothing. We're trying to bend the world into the way it should be. It doesn't happen over night, it happens over a long time at a ridiculously, tediously, slow pace. We're working against billions of years of evolution and tens of thousands of years of culture.

"Why not meet the other side half way so that you can guide them back to your side. As I've mentioned time and again, the is supposed to be a minimum. If you want to do better, may events favor you. All I'm asking is you recognize us as equals and try to meet us halfway. Maybe one day we will end up on your side of the road, maybe we won't, but isn't it better that we are that much closer today?"
Last edited by Ceruleo on Sun Dec 13, 2009 10:45 am, edited 5 times in total.
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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Fatatatutti
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10966
Founded: Jun 02, 2006
Ex-Nation

Postby Fatatatutti » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:14 am

Ceruleo wrote:You're trying to prevent torture, which means 'the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.'

"No," the general said, holding her pencil in both hands and staring at it as if there was a secret message on it. "Preventing torture, banning torture, is a given.

"I'm trying to prevent interrogation, and I thought I had explained fairly thoroughly that that isn't for nicey-nicey reasons. It's for your own good. If you don't understand the argument, ask questions but please stop responding to everythging I say by insisting that black is white."

How many of those words do I need to explain the definition.

"Argumentum ad dictionarium is a logical fallacy and a schoolboy tactic. Please stop."

Either way, I get paid.

"I don't," the general said, still studying her pencil.

"I'm currently training some units of the Fatatatutti Foreign Legion. As you might know, Fatatatutian troops are forbidden by law to ever set foot on foreign soil. The FFL is a quasi-official body, not legally affiliated with the regular armed forces and members of the regular armed forces are required to resign from the regular forces if they wish to enlist in the FFL.

"So... I am not currently an officer of Fatatatutti's official armed forces and, as such, I do not get paid. What I'm doing, both in my day-to-day work and at this conference, is not a job. It's a mission, a calling, a cause.

"I'm working in the hope that somebody, somewhere, won't be half drowned for the convenience of your interrogators. I'm also hoping that nobody will do it to your troops with the excuse that 'everybody else is doing it'."

She glanced around the table again. "If you're sincere about improving the situation, answer one question for me: Why do you keep insisting that everything you're already doing is right and every improvement I suggest is wrong?"

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Romandeos
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 435
Founded: Jan 13, 2005
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Romandeos » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:32 am

IC:

Eschborn's eyes narrowed dangerously as she looked at Mr. Newton.

"Mr. Newton," she said, rocking back and forth, still creaking. "Because that record is mildly impressive, I will try to forget the tone in which you said the word 'partner,' but nobody here, least of all myself, will put up with such tactics long, nor should they. I would expect such an experienced and wordly man would know not to behave like a child in a schoolyard here, but please, correct me if I'm mistaken in this."

"Regarding torture, my own policy, and that of the country which I serve, is that torture for pain's own sake is wrong, but that interrogation to gain intelligence is not. If you believe individuals you have captured know something which can help you win the war, thus shortening the conflict and reducing casualties on both sides, questioning him is not torture, and it would be foolish to say otherwise. There is a difference between interrogation and torture. The one is questioning, the other, visiting pain on a person because you can. This does not sit well with me. It repulses me, really. There are ways to convince a POW to talk without laying a hand on him. I am not versed in these methods myself but I have seen them in use. Quite effective."

Her hand had reached down, almost without thought as she spoke, and was now idly scratching at the joint of her right knee.
Last edited by Romandeos on Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
If you RP with me, you are choosing to acknowledge The Shift by default. No negotiations.


Southeastasia wrote:Romandeos is like an enormous dog: happy and friendly, but when angered, ruthlessly sadistic.


Yo’ur spalling ability and use of gamrmer is artcioous.

Facts and Figures of Life

The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant.

The careful application of terror is also a form of communication.

Someone who thinks logically is a nice contrast to the world.

Things are more like they are today than they ever were before.

Anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for.

Friends may come and go but enemies accumulate.

I have seen the truth and it makes no sense.

If you think there is good in everybody, you haven’t met everybody.

RIP Tanaara: 1/17/10.

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Ceruleo
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 127
Founded: Nov 07, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Ceruleo » Sun Dec 13, 2009 11:43 am

Newton got up and left the room. Once outside, called Custodian Dougherty, the Cerulean Head of State, said two words, "Dull Sword." A Cerulean Military radio call that identifies that the person using the term is in an untenable situation. Hope isn't lost, but the situation looks bad. If he were on the battlefield, where he belonged, every piece of artillery would be utilized, every plane flying to help him. But he was alone here.

He sat down and just listened for a while.
Communism is standing in line for eight hours to get a moldy piece of bread.

Capitalism is working for eight hours, going to the store when you get off, buying a loaf of bread, going home and finding that it is moldy. Thinking for twenty minutes if it'll be okay if you just scrape off the mold, deciding that it won't. Then thinking for another twenty minutes if it's worth putting your shoes back on to go back to the store, deciding that it isn't and then just eating the bread anyway.
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