Future Tech Advice and Assistance Thread [O.O.C.]

[Lubyak]

You're correct, ORBATS don't prevent a player from being a jerk because they can simply just go back and edit their numbers, something I've seen people do

Why a new player can grasp this concept while others who color themselves veterans can not is beyond me

Players who go back and edit ORBATs deserve the ignore they would incur.

If a person is the sort to pull something out of hammer-space to 'win' and RP, then I don't think an ORBAT is going to make them a better RPer. They are still the same person who was going to rage and pull something out anyway so that would probably show itself elsewhere such as in their writing or OOC communication. I think ORBATS are fine if you like to see all your ducks in a row, but it is probably not going to prevent a person from being a dick.

No, but you are going to have prior notice they are going to pull something like that.

It just seems to me that my original point stands: that the ORBAT is a band-aid instead of a cure. Anyone can make an ORBAT that has next to no thought put into it, and instead just puts a list of numbers next to names of military equipment. Fundamentally, what you seem to want the ORBAT to do in providing information about another player's willingness to co-operate is acquirable through ordinary communication, without having to be framed in the form of an ORBAT. There's no special information that an ORBAT is going to provide that just talking with them won't.

[Hobbeebia]

I humbly disagree Lubyak,

Players who cant take the time to do a decent ORBAT in an application is a good judge of rp experience, and ability.

Now is this following example over arching yes, but it has its point.

What? I dont want to do an ORBAT cause it takes to much effort.

If this particular attitude is garnered simply by the request for an ORBAT one can deduce that this players approach to writing may be pretty similar. Will it always be so? No. Of course not, and in the instance they did post a shit ORBAT you can also use that as a means of figuring out how stable of a player they are.

Being a good writer and RPer requires effort at some point and if an ORBAT is to much effort for someone then you probably wont want to rp with them.

[Neornith]

I humbly disagree Lubyak,

Players who cant take the time to do a decent ORBAT in an application is a good judge of rp experience, and ability.

Now is this following example over arching yes, but it has its point.

What? I dont want to do an ORBAT cause it takes to much effort.

If this particular attitude is garnered simply by the request for an ORBAT one can deduce that this players approach to writing may be pretty similar. Will it always be so? No. Of course not, and in the instance they did post a shit ORBAT you can also use that as a means of figuring out how stable of a player they are.

Being a good writer and RPer requires effort at some point and if an ORBAT is to much effort for someone then you probably wont want to rp with them.

Yeah I think you're dead wrong on that, maybe a player doesn't have the time to write up some completely pointless numbers but they're still a good player.

ORBATS are nothing but an archaic notion someone dreamed up back in the older days of NS, and their usage has always been used as a tool to keep new players "in their place" just like the old thousand per billion stupidity that used to be prevalent

Course if someone wants to try and force me to do an ORBAT and refuses to RP with me if I don't they're probably not interested in collaboration and they really aren't someone I care too RP with

[Lubyak]

I humbly disagree Lubyak,

Players who cant take the time to do a decent ORBAT in an application is a good judge of rp experience, and ability.

Now is this following example over arching yes, but it has its point.

What? I dont want to do an ORBAT cause it takes to much effort.

If this particular attitude is garnered simply by the request for an ORBAT one can deduce that this players approach to writing may be pretty similar. Will it always be so? No. Of course not, and in the instance they did post a shit ORBAT you can also use that as a means of figuring out how stable of a player they are.

Being a good writer and RPer requires effort at some point and if an ORBAT is to much effort for someone then you probably wont want to rp with them.

I believe we are just going to have to disagree.

I can not see how an ORBAT can magically provide a review of a player's maturity and skill that could not be gathered via simple communication and cooperation with that player. You are correct in that good RP takes effort and investment, but I can easily imagine a player who does not want to do an ORBAT putting in that same effort.

I could easily accept a player who refuses to post an ORBAT, if I'd worked with them previously, or had even had enough time to communicate with them to trust that they aren't going to be the kind of player to try and win the RP. In fact, I can even imagine a player I would applaud for not posting an ORBAT, if they said "I don't know enough about military matters to feel comfortable putting such numbers down."

Fundamentally, I like ORBATs. I've spent time developing my nation's military enough that I enjoy showing it off sometimes. However, I don't think that my ability to do show is a reflection of my ability and skill as an RPer. A more skilled RPer who doesn't do military as well could easily be a wonderful RP partner without even knowing what ORBAT even means.

Edit: In fact, I agree with Neo in that if I see an RP which is demanding highly detailed ORBATs as part of the application for an RP, I'm going to be put off. I'd much rather judge whether I want to RP with a player based on normal communication with them. After all, even the best ORBAT is meaningless in an RP that doens't involve military operations, and conversation and communication are universal in a way that ORBATs are not.

[Achesia]

I humbly disagree Lubyak,

Players who cant take the time to do a decent ORBAT in an application is a good judge of rp experience, and ability.

Now is this following example over arching yes, but it has its point.



If this particular attitude is garnered simply by the request for an ORBAT one can deduce that this players approach to writing may be pretty similar. Will it always be so? No. Of course not, and in the instance they did post a shit ORBAT you can also use that as a means of figuring out how stable of a player they are.

Being a good writer and RPer requires effort at some point and if an ORBAT is to much effort for someone then you probably wont want to rp with them.

I believe we are just going to have to disagree.

I can not see how an ORBAT can magically provide a review of a player's maturity and skill that could not be gathered via simple communication and cooperation with that player. You are correct in that good RP takes effort and investment, but I can easily imagine a player who does not want to do an ORBAT putting in that same effort.

I could easily accept a player who refuses to post an ORBAT, if I'd worked with them previously, or had even had enough time to communicate with them to trust that they aren't going to be the kind of player to try and win the RP. In fact, I can even imagine a player I would applaud for not posting an ORBAT, if they said "I don't know enough about military matters to feel comfortable putting such numbers down."

Fundamentally, I like ORBATs. I've spent time developing my nation's military enough that I enjoy showing it off sometimes. However, I don't think that my ability to do show is a reflection of my ability and skill as an RPer. A more skilled RPer who doesn't do military as well could easily be a wonderful RP partner without even knowing what ORBAT even means.

Edit: In fact, I agree with Neo in that if I see an RP which is demanding highly detailed ORBATs as part of the application for an RP, I'm going to be put off. I'd much rather judge whether I want to RP with a player based on normal communication with them. After all, even the best ORBAT is meaningless in an RP that doens't involve military operations, and conversation and communication are universal in a way that ORBATs are not.

Its true some who may not enjoy making ORBATs like others do, it may be a put off for them and not a good indication of their skill in RPing. But hey some like to make them, some use them, its just a different style of RPing. When I see an ORBAT that is done very professionally and skillfully, I get the impression that the player is very put together and well fleshed out with his star state. However; thats not excluding those who write well in their RPing and do not like doing ORBATs, from which I can get the same impression.

[Hobbeebia]

Neo I love you bro but I was around during the 100p per billion era. It worked just fine.

Its how I learned. It throttled my enthusiasm to be grand and huge, by keeping me humble as I read, and learned from those who are my betters.

Did we collaberate back then, hell yes we did. Probably to a greater level because back then you had a finite amount to work with and going in guns blazing in a hundred threads got you ignored. It was the days when you had to earn your respect and prove yourself instead of simply saying this is how things are. It was great for building solid lore and canon for your nations... it gave you depth and a personal invested interest in your nation. Unlike the majority of nations we see these days that are cookie cutter and lack personalization and character.

[Neornith]

I believe we are just going to have to disagree.

I can not see how an ORBAT can magically provide a review of a player's maturity and skill that could not be gathered via simple communication and cooperation with that player. You are correct in that good RP takes effort and investment, but I can easily imagine a player who does not want to do an ORBAT putting in that same effort.

I could easily accept a player who refuses to post an ORBAT, if I'd worked with them previously, or had even had enough time to communicate with them to trust that they aren't going to be the kind of player to try and win the RP. In fact, I can even imagine a player I would applaud for not posting an ORBAT, if they said "I don't know enough about military matters to feel comfortable putting such numbers down."

Fundamentally, I like ORBATs. I've spent time developing my nation's military enough that I enjoy showing it off sometimes. However, I don't think that my ability to do show is a reflection of my ability and skill as an RPer. A more skilled RPer who doesn't do military as well could easily be a wonderful RP partner without even knowing what ORBAT even means.

Edit: In fact, I agree with Neo in that if I see an RP which is demanding highly detailed ORBATs as part of the application for an RP, I'm going to be put off. I'd much rather judge whether I want to RP with a player based on normal communication with them. After all, even the best ORBAT is meaningless in an RP that doens't involve military operations, and conversation and communication are universal in a way that ORBATs are not.

Its true some who may not enjoy making ORBATs like others do, it may be a put off for them and not a good indication of their skill in RPing. But hey some like to make them, some use them, its just a different style of RPing. When I see an ORBAT that is done very professionally and skillfully, I get the impression that the player is very put together and well fleshed out with his star state. However; thats not excluding those who write well in their RPing and do not like doing ORBATs, from which I can get the same impression.

I can name a dozen players that have volumes in their factbooks that I've never seen post an ORBAT

And you're right, some players like doing them and I think that's cool, but to try and force others too do it is just wrong to me on so many levels

[Neornith]

Neo I love you bro but I was around during the 100p per billion era. It worked just fine.

Its how I learned. It throttled my enthusiasm to be grand and huge, by keeping me humble as I read, and learned from those who are my betters.

Did we collaberate back then, hell yes we did. Probably to a greater level because back then you had a finite amount to work with and going in guns blazing in a hundred threads got you ignored. It was the days when you had to earn your respect and prove yourself instead of simply saying this is how things are. It was great for building solid lore and canon for your nations... it gave you depth and a personal invested interest in your nation. Unlike the majority of nations we see these days that are cookie cutter and lack personalization and character.

No it didn't, it was a tool to control the n00bs, we both know what it was used for so don't try and romanticize it into something it wasn't.

And I hardly saw an collaboration, it was mostly "post losses" so I really don't see where you're getting that from, I recall people playing gods, wormhole cannons and shields that were invulnerable, really not a lot of collaboration and mostly people trying to outwank one another

And I find it offensive as well that you call most of the new kids around cookie cutter nations, I mean really, as I recall most the older nations were nothing but ripoffs of existing sci-fi works something that has thankfully faded, nah if I had choice between now and then it'd be now without question because we nurture creativity and collaboration not "I have an older join date, do as I say"

[Lubyak]

I believe we are just going to have to disagree.

I can not see how an ORBAT can magically provide a review of a player's maturity and skill that could not be gathered via simple communication and cooperation with that player. You are correct in that good RP takes effort and investment, but I can easily imagine a player who does not want to do an ORBAT putting in that same effort.

I could easily accept a player who refuses to post an ORBAT, if I'd worked with them previously, or had even had enough time to communicate with them to trust that they aren't going to be the kind of player to try and win the RP. In fact, I can even imagine a player I would applaud for not posting an ORBAT, if they said "I don't know enough about military matters to feel comfortable putting such numbers down."

Fundamentally, I like ORBATs. I've spent time developing my nation's military enough that I enjoy showing it off sometimes. However, I don't think that my ability to do show is a reflection of my ability and skill as an RPer. A more skilled RPer who doesn't do military as well could easily be a wonderful RP partner without even knowing what ORBAT even means.

Edit: In fact, I agree with Neo in that if I see an RP which is demanding highly detailed ORBATs as part of the application for an RP, I'm going to be put off. I'd much rather judge whether I want to RP with a player based on normal communication with them. After all, even the best ORBAT is meaningless in an RP that doens't involve military operations, and conversation and communication are universal in a way that ORBATs are not.

Its true some who may not enjoy making ORBATs like others do, it may be a put off for them and not a good indication of their skill in RPing. But hey some like to make them, some use them, its just a different style of RPing. When I see an ORBAT that is done very professionally and skillfully, I get the impression that the player is very put together and well fleshed out with his star state. However; thats not excluding those who write well in their RPing and do not like doing ORBATs, from which I can get the same impression.

And I am fine with that.

I like ORBATs. I'm not coming from this from a perspective that ORBATs are horrible and no one should ever use them. A well done ORBAT can be an indication that a player has a well thought out and developed military, and that the same player may have put the same level of effort into so much else in their nation.

However, I also know that I am a counter-example to that myself. I can tell you how an R.u.B Navy battlefleet is put together and operates, but I have less written about culture than I like. I would expect someone who doesn't know me to talk with me and help plot out an RP that way rather than judge me solely off of the quality of my ORBATs.

ORBATs can be fun, and can be a nice addition to RPs. I have no disagreements with that statement. What I do have a disagreement with is the assertion that ORBATs can somehow provide a window into a player's skill level that you couldn't get outside of the normal communication and collaboration you should have in any given RP.

Neo I love you bro but I was around during the 100p per billion era. It worked just fine.

Its how I learned. It throttled my enthusiasm to be grand and huge, by keeping me humble as I read, and learned from those who are my betters.

Did we collaberate back then, hell yes we did. Probably to a greater level because back then you had a finite amount to work with and going in guns blazing in a hundred threads got you ignored. It was the days when you had to earn your respect and prove yourself instead of simply saying this is how things are. It was great for building solid lore and canon for your nations... it gave you depth and a personal invested interest in your nation. Unlike the majority of nations we see these days that are cookie cutter and lack personalization and character.

I feel like this is just selective memory nostalgia. Just like how we think music/movies/whatever was better in the old days because we only remember the good ones, I'm willing to bet that FT had just as many cookie cutter Imperium of Man/Galactic Empire/Zerg/Tyranid/whatever the popular sci-fi franchise of the year was back in 2004 as it does today. It's just that we remember the players who developed something cool, new, and unique rather than the fifth "PURGE THE HERETIC" Imperium of Man player to have joined any given RP.

And--frankly--I find it offensive that you're willing to label the majority of nations these days as 'cookie cutter' and lacking in personalisation and characterisation. It's a disservice to the many players we have who are all working hard at developing their nations into something new and unique rather than a 'cookie cutter'. Players these days still have to earn their chops, and the kind of player who posts in every random FT thread with "I send 1,000 ships!" is going to get ignored.

Fundamentally, I dislike things like the old thousand per billion rule as overly limiting. There' s no need for such things, and the inevitable haggling over what a 'standard' ship was/should be when you can sit down with your fellow players and talk about what kind of RP you want to do, what scale you want it to take place at, and what you want to have happen in it. A player needs space to breathe to learn how to develop their nation, and we should nurture that kind of thing, rather than come down hard and force them into a power structure that fundamentally makes players who were fortunate enough to have an older account more powerful. I think it's good we moved away from those rules, and I don't think that such 'limitations' necessarily encouraged some kind of deep developments. Players who are going to make new and interesting nations are going to do so, and players who just want to be Star Wars, Star Trek, Mass Effect are going to do that. If we want more of the former, we should strive to be as open as possible, and encourage different strands of thoughts, rather than trying to hammer in some kind of reliance of 'rules' based on population or other such formalistic requirements.

[Hobbeebia]

No matter how we slice it we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[Raven Corps]

Oh dear God...

Lub and Neo, if you making poutty faces because he speaks frankly I swear I'm going never take you seriously ever again. Hahaha...

Offended is such an over used term

Yes there were cookie cutter back then but the old ways has a way of refining better than rps these days so on the note I agree. There is no trial by fire anymore.

I dont agree however that ORBAT make perfect indicators of one abilities ro write, but I see his point.

So... cant we al just get along?

[Achesia]

No matter how we slice it we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Ya I don't think the two camps will see eye to eye any time soon.

[Hobbeebia]

Lol Raven

I never meant to make offense, but as where Neo thanks I romanticized the old days I really havent. Those days were rough. I was constantly beat back and critizied. I think the difference is that I came through thise days a better writer and a stiffer player and Neo probably has an inverse response.

[Santheres]

Maybe it's time to move on from this discussion. Here are the salient points:

1) ORBATs aren't necessary, but feel free to use them as you will.

2) Being old doesn't entitle you to anything.

3) We should all be doing our best to coach new players to have creative nations backed by solid writing.

Talk about something else, now.

[G-Tech Corporation]

2) Being old doesn't entitle you to anything.

Except the right to complain about kids on your lawn, and a court-mandated waving cane to shake at them.

[Santheres]

2) Being old doesn't entitle you to anything.

Except the right to complain about kids on your lawn, and a court-mandated waving cane to shake at them.

And if you elect me, I'll work tirelessly to remove this suckling on the teat of old age. Write my name in at the polls!

[SquareDisc City]

Fundamentally, I dislike things like the old thousand per billion rule as overly limiting. There' s no need for such things, and the inevitable haggling over what a 'standard' ship was/should be when you can sit down with your fellow players and talk about what kind of RP you want to do, what scale you want it to take place at, and what you want to have happen in it.

It's before my time, but that was capital spaceships to NS population ratio, right? I know it's no longer an FT 'rule', but if I wanted to put down some idea of my nation's overall space force size, is it still a reasonable figure to go with? (IIRC it's about the ratio for many real-world sea navies, for what it's worth.)

[Hobbeebia]

Is is a usable figure system... yes. I still use the system myself.

[Vocenae]

The Thousand Per Billion rule was nothing but a means of control by a tyrant who wanted it make sure he would always be the most powerful nation around because he was one of the oldest players. It served no purpose other than for him to effortlessly and immediately defeat any other nation that challenged him be it ICly or OOCly.

It is dead and gone now, along with him.

[The United Dominion]

Fundamentally, I dislike things like the old thousand per billion rule as overly limiting. There' s no need for such things, and the inevitable haggling over what a 'standard' ship was/should be when you can sit down with your fellow players and talk about what kind of RP you want to do, what scale you want it to take place at, and what you want to have happen in it.

It's before my time, but that was capital spaceships to NS population ratio, right? I know it's no longer an FT 'rule', but if I wanted to put down some idea of my nation's overall space force size, is it still a reasonable figure to go with? (IIRC it's about the ratio for many real-world sea navies, for what it's worth.)

It doesn't make sense to for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being that NS population is irrelevant. There's also the problem of "define capital ships" and "what about support ships?"

It also is probably going to give you far more ships than suits most other nations if you're an older nation.

For that matter, I'm a puppet. Can I use my main's instead? Great! 25,000 capital ships it is. And if I use a carrier strike group as basis - because space is an ocean - then I have probably 7-10 times as many supporting ships (combat, not logistics). Alright, then, my navy is between 200,000 and 275,000 ships. And that's not counting the fact that a capital ship could actually be a carrier and therefore have its own fighters/frigates.

Edited to fix math because I forgot to add the initial 25,000.

[Lubyak]

Fundamentally, I dislike things like the old thousand per billion rule as overly limiting. There' s no need for such things, and the inevitable haggling over what a 'standard' ship was/should be when you can sit down with your fellow players and talk about what kind of RP you want to do, what scale you want it to take place at, and what you want to have happen in it.

It's before my time, but that was capital spaceships to NS population ratio, right? I know it's no longer an FT 'rule', but if I wanted to put down some idea of my nation's overall space force size, is it still a reasonable figure to go with? (IIRC it's about the ratio for many real-world sea navies, for what it's worth.)

It was also before my time, but as I recall it was a way to 'balance' power between nations, wherein for every billion you had in population, you could have a thousand 'normal' ships, or something like that. You could adjust the ratio to represent fewer more individually powerful ships or more individually weaker ships, but that was how fleet numbers were made.

I personally don't care for it. I've stayed away from such things as putting hard numbers on my population, the size of my whole fleet, or anything else. I only note that I have various FLeet Groups of certain relative strength. If you want to assign hard numbers, its as good a rule as any I suppose, but fundamentally it's just up to your own choice and the believability of your claim. Definitely take it with a grain of salt I think.

As The United Dominion pointed out, much of it is going to be dependent on how your nation's naval doctrine works.

[Hobbeebia]

The Thousand Per Billion rule was nothing but a means of control by a tyrant who wanted it make sure he would always be the most powerful nation around because he was one of the oldest players. It served no purpose other than for him to effortlessly and immediately defeat any other nation that challenged him be it ICly or OOCly.

It is dead and gone now, along with him.

By the gods why are you so hostile? lol

[Achesia]

The Thousand Per Billion rule was nothing but a means of control by a tyrant who wanted it make sure he would always be the most powerful nation around because he was one of the oldest players. It served no purpose other than for him to effortlessly and immediately defeat any other nation that challenged him be it ICly or OOCly.

It is dead and gone now, along with him.

By the gods why are you so hostile? lol

Indeed, it really does not serve to encourage polite discussion.

[The United Dominion]

Neither does ignoring other posts or the point being argued in favor of complaining about hostility because someone dislikes something you like.

[Hobbeebia]

Both of you seem to be on edge today. lol

I said my piece about using the system.