Future Tech Advice and Assistance Thread [O.O.C.]

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

I was wondering if anyone here can help me with velocities and all that with weapons...for factbook stuff.

[Jovian Lunar Empire]

Well, that depends on the weapon's operating mode, but I can do the physics calcs for you, given a few more details.

[Ivory Record]

I'm also pretty handy with the math for energy weapons, but I take it from your "velocity" question that you're dealing with kinetics.

[Huerdae]

Well, let me pose a different question, which I always pose in this case:

What value is added to the RP of actually being able to quote the energy levels, specific velocities, mass, and kinetic energy of any of your weapons? Is it something that is a pivotal or useful point in the story, or is it something you can skim over in the interest of plot, and be able to simply fire weapons with the assumption that they function to a reasonable extent?

Other than basic description of what could be expected of the weapon (is it a strategic weapon? A tactical weapon? Maybe a ship-killer, or point-defense weapon?) is there anything really needed other than maybe what someone sees or hears or feels when it is used? It always seemed that in the middle of battle, someone isn't going to go think about how this specific weapon has this specific caliber and kinetic energy against their shield, which should cause them to be defenseless in this amount of time....

...no, if they have the capability, they skip that. They skip right to "If I don't get out of this in 30 secs, I'm dead!"

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

Well, let me pose a different question, which I always pose in this case:

What value is added to the RP of actually being able to quote the energy levels, specific velocities, mass, and kinetic energy of any of your weapons? Is it something that is a pivotal or useful point in the story, or is it something you can skim over in the interest of plot, and be able to simply fire weapons with the assumption that they function to a reasonable extent?

Other than basic description of what could be expected of the weapon (is it a strategic weapon? A tactical weapon? Maybe a ship-killer, or point-defense weapon?) is there anything really needed other than maybe what someone sees or hears or feels when it is used? It always seemed that in the middle of battle, someone isn't going to go think about how this specific weapon has this specific caliber and kinetic energy against their shield, which should cause them to be defenseless in this amount of time....

...no, if they have the capability, they skip that. They skip right to "If I don't get out of this in 30 secs, I'm dead!"

Advice that I'm already aware of, however I like having information for my factbooks and stuff, keeping things in line with information that I feel is necessary as it adds to the immersion which I try to give my factbook. The information can be used outside of role play itself, and even then it can be added as a small note, the likely hood of happening depending on how said story develops but regardless, the question isn't just pertaining to direct role play, but the general way I want to play the game.

Well, that depends on the weapon's operating mode, but I can do the physics calcs for you, given a few more details.

I want the weapon to be around 64 kilotons (Or whatever the appropriate term would be for a Kinetic projectile)

The Velocity I want is 3165 km/s....

I am thinking that, I wanted to know how this worked and what mass the projectile should have or whatever.

I just want to be specific here because I feel that if I get a reasonable way to get a calculation in some way, it will help me determine where my nation is in my specific setting.

Also I just woke up so I apologize ahead of time if I sound confusing or whatever.

[Nazis in Space]

E(k) = 1/2 m x v^2

E(k) / v^2 = 1/2 m

E(k) / v^2 x 2 = m

E(k) = kg x m x s^-2
v = m x s^-1
m = kg

64 x 4.184e12 kg x m x s^-2 = 2.7e14 kg x m x s^-2

2.7e14 kg m^2 x s^-2 / 3165000^2 m x s^-1 x 2 = 54 kg

[SquareDisc City]

For non-relativistic speeds:
E_k = mv²/2
m being mass, v speed, and E_k kinetic energ.

For relativistic speeds:
E_k = (γ-1)mc²
γ = 1/√(1-β²)
β=v/c
c being speed of light, of course.

Up to 0.1c the Newtonian equation is 99% accurate. Up to 0.5c it's still about 80% accurate, "good enough for NS". Beyond that you really need to go relativistic. Of course, whether projectiles should be going that fast is questionable; unless you have a good reason for using relativistic projectiles and are clear the yields aren't stupid, I suggest avoiding them.

A good general idea of projectile speeds is needed if you care about realistically portraying the effects of impact. Even with the same total energy, the impact speed matters, though you probably only need order of magnitude estimates for writing. Knowing that the orbital rain is coming down at 3,000 kilometres a second doesn't really add to the writing, but knowing that that's fast enough to turn each projectile into the core of a miniature Sun as it causes the air around it to undergo nuclear fusion does, as does knowing that with the bombardment satellites in geostationary orbit the people on the ground enjoy about 10 seconds warning of their impending obliteration.

[The Fedral Union]

Well, let me pose a different question, which I always pose in this case:

What value is added to the RP of actually being able to quote the energy levels, specific velocities, mass, and kinetic energy of any of your weapons? Is it something that is a pivotal or useful point in the story, or is it something you can skim over in the interest of plot, and be able to simply fire weapons with the assumption that they function to a reasonable extent?

Other than basic description of what could be expected of the weapon (is it a strategic weapon? A tactical weapon? Maybe a ship-killer, or point-defense weapon?) is there anything really needed other than maybe what someone sees or hears or feels when it is used? It always seemed that in the middle of battle, someone isn't going to go think about how this specific weapon has this specific caliber and kinetic energy against their shield, which should cause them to be defenseless in this amount of time....

...no, if they have the capability, they skip that. They skip right to "If I don't get out of this in 30 secs, I'm dead!"

^^^

That's pretty much the best way to go about these things.. No one wants to sit there and have to crunch numbers to figure out if a gun is damn gun. The layman rper doesn't have time nor the desire to read or write such things IIRC.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

Well, let me pose a different question, which I always pose in this case:

What value is added to the RP of actually being able to quote the energy levels, specific velocities, mass, and kinetic energy of any of your weapons? Is it something that is a pivotal or useful point in the story, or is it something you can skim over in the interest of plot, and be able to simply fire weapons with the assumption that they function to a reasonable extent?

Other than basic description of what could be expected of the weapon (is it a strategic weapon? A tactical weapon? Maybe a ship-killer, or point-defense weapon?) is there anything really needed other than maybe what someone sees or hears or feels when it is used? It always seemed that in the middle of battle, someone isn't going to go think about how this specific weapon has this specific caliber and kinetic energy against their shield, which should cause them to be defenseless in this amount of time....

...no, if they have the capability, they skip that. They skip right to "If I don't get out of this in 30 secs, I'm dead!"

^^^

That's pretty much the best way to go about these things.. No one wants to sit there and have to crunch numbers to figure out if a gun is damn gun. The layman rper doesn't have time nor the desire to read or write such things IIRC.

Cool.....then don't, your not obliged to do so. And before some "Take the advice or whatever thing arrives..."

You're only adding to advice I already responded too....And as I told the other person, this goes beyond just RP, these questions are for stuff such as my factbook, FB2I, general info on my end because I like to keep track of it...

[OMGeverynameistaken]

The energy of any given weapon is best expressed by the equation:

p(d+c)^S=E

D is the diameter of your gun. C is how cool looking it is (measured in MegaFonzies) and S is how sciency its name sounds on a scale of 2.71828 to 3.14. P is a binary variable representing either 1 or -1, and depends on the importance of the target in relation to the continuation of the plot. E is the energy of the shot.

[Red Talons]

The energy of any given weapon is best expressed by the equation:

p(d+c)^S=E

D is the diameter of your gun. C is how cool looking it is (measured in MegaFonzies) and S is how sciency its name sounds on a scale of 2.71828 to 3.14. P is a binary variable representing either 1 or -1, and depends on the importance of the target in relation to the continuation of the plot. E is the energy of the shot.

This is the best way to math I have ever seen...

[Kyrusia]

Keep things on track. Keep things polite. Keep things within the purview of this thread. Remember that the original post is there for more reasons than to just look pretty: it contains specific information regarding this thread, what is expected of participants, and what is generally either unwanted or beyond this thread's purview.

Thank you.

---

As an aside, I am currently working on a post compiling advice and assistance based upon my personal experiences and the experiences of others regarding interstellar and - for lack of a better term - "transnational" commerce as it relates to Future Tech. This post will probably be akin to my post on the creation of stellar and planetary systems, so semi-lengthy insofar as posts in this thread go. Look for it, in all likelihood, in the coming week; hope to have some rather familiar faces having either contributed or otherwise adding their experiences to the overall post.

[-The Unified Earth Governments-]

E(k) = 1/2 m x v^2

E(k) / v^2 = 1/2 m

E(k) / v^2 x 2 = m

E(k) = kg x m x s^-2
v = m x s^-1
m = kg

64 x 4.184e12 kg x m x s^-2 = 2.7e14 kg x m x s^-2

2.7e14 kg m^2 x s^-2 / 3165000^2 m x s^-1 x 2 = 54 kg

For non-relativistic speeds:
E_k = mv²/2
m being mass, v speed, and E_k kinetic energ.

For relativistic speeds:
E_k = (γ-1)mc²
γ = 1/√(1-β²)
β=v/c
c being speed of light, of course.

Up to 0.1c the Newtonian equation is 99% accurate. Up to 0.5c it's still about 80% accurate, "good enough for NS". Beyond that you really need to go relativistic. Of course, whether projectiles should be going that fast is questionable; unless you have a good reason for using relativistic projectiles and are clear the yields aren't stupid, I suggest avoiding them.

A good general idea of projectile speeds is needed if you care about realistically portraying the effects of impact. Even with the same total energy, the impact speed matters, though you probably only need order of magnitude estimates for writing. Knowing that the orbital rain is coming down at 3,000 kilometres a second doesn't really add to the writing, but knowing that that's fast enough to turn each projectile into the core of a miniature Sun as it causes the air around it to undergo nuclear fusion does, as does knowing that with the bombardment satellites in geostationary orbit the people on the ground enjoy about 10 seconds warning of their impending obliteration.

Do either of you know a site that would make it easier for this process? Just so I don't have to take time away from either of you?

[The Legion of War]

E(k) = 1/2 m x v^2

E(k) / v^2 = 1/2 m

E(k) / v^2 x 2 = m

E(k) = kg x m x s^-2
v = m x s^-1
m = kg

64 x 4.184e12 kg x m x s^-2 = 2.7e14 kg x m x s^-2

2.7e14 kg m^2 x s^-2 / 3165000^2 m x s^-1 x 2 = 54 kg

For non-relativistic speeds:
E_k = mv²/2
m being mass, v speed, and E_k kinetic energ.

For relativistic speeds:
E_k = (γ-1)mc²
γ = 1/√(1-β²)
β=v/c
c being speed of light, of course.

Up to 0.1c the Newtonian equation is 99% accurate. Up to 0.5c it's still about 80% accurate, "good enough for NS". Beyond that you really need to go relativistic. Of course, whether projectiles should be going that fast is questionable; unless you have a good reason for using relativistic projectiles and are clear the yields aren't stupid, I suggest avoiding them.

A good general idea of projectile speeds is needed if you care about realistically portraying the effects of impact. Even with the same total energy, the impact speed matters, though you probably only need order of magnitude estimates for writing. Knowing that the orbital rain is coming down at 3,000 kilometres a second doesn't really add to the writing, but knowing that that's fast enough to turn each projectile into the core of a miniature Sun as it causes the air around it to undergo nuclear fusion does, as does knowing that with the bombardment satellites in geostationary orbit the people on the ground enjoy about 10 seconds warning of their impending obliteration.

Do either of you know a site that would make it easier for this process? Just so I don't have to take time away from either of you?

Google basic physics equations? I mean, the Newtonian one is taught in high school so other basic formulas can probably be found online.

[Vernii]

So has anyone else considered how their starship construction is structured? It might seem kind of silly to think about, but it helps for fleshing out your systems a bit, and could be particularly handy information when it comes to wars.

By structured, I essentially mean how components fabrication and ship assembly are located. One giant sprawling, do-everything facility? Hundreds of factories sprinkled across a system sending a constant stream of parts to an assembly yard? Culture style mobile factory vessels that can harvest and process their own resources, cranking out smaller starships from scratch? Are there chokepoints in the process? Does everything flow smoothly into place, or is construction time held up by waits on difficult, complex components?

I personally use a semi-decentralized model. There are both government and corporate-owned shipyards, but in almost all cases they are assembly stations, with components being produced elsewhere and shipped to the yard. In this case though, the distance isn't that great, since the vast majority of the Imperium's industry is located within the systems of Gregor and Erewohn, and most of that is further concentrated within cislunar orbital radius & Lagrange points of the primary inhabited worlds.

I've also worked on tentative construction length estimates for my warship classes. The USN's battleships and carriers generally seem to take around 4-5 years to build and commission, so if I peg a superdreadnought to a 4 year (1,460 day) production cycle, and then assume that the other classes scale similarly based on mass/volume, then here are my results:

Superdreadnought: 1,460 days.
Dreadnought: 486 days.
Battlecruiser: 120 days.
Cruiser, Armored: 60 days.
Cruiser, Light: 22 days.
Destroyer: 18 days.

These are of course, very rough estimates and essentially assuming best-case scenarios (critical components aren't delayed, assembly berths are free, the yard has no time-loss accidents, work stoppages, and so on). There are a few chokepoints in the process, namely reactors, drive field generators, and jump-drives, since I assume that the mechanisms of energy generation and movement for spaceboats that are (at smallest) a couple million tons (the largest are over a billion tons), aren't exactly the type of thing that can just get quickly cranked out by the baker's dozen.

This has the side effect of adding a vulnerability into my nation's industrial capability: billion ton dreadnoughts are just very expensive space stations if they don't have the engines required to even clear the shipyard.

So why is it useful for RPing? In my case, it helps define my strategic naval doctrine; almost every war I've fought has been pretty short and violent, which means that 1. Due to build times, the Imperial Navy's post-war strength is going to be [pre-war capital ships - losses], since unless the war drags on for over a year, the only dreadnought replacements that can be expected are any ships that were nearing completion when the war began, and that situation gets worse for superdreads. 2. Because of this, the IVN should stock up on capital units (and has). 3. Survivability and ease of repair are priorities in any starship design. 4. At the onset of hostilities, most new construction orders should be battlecruiser or smaller, in order to maximize the chances that the units produced will see use.

[Nazis in Space]

[...]I've also worked on tentative construction length estimates for my warship classes. The USN's battleships and carriers generally seem to take around 4-5 years to build and commission, so if I peg a superdreadnought to a 4 year (1,460 day) production cycle, and then assume that the other classes scale similarly based on mass/volume, then here are my results:[...]

While RL-boat construction costs are loosely scaled by mass (Within a comparable frame of reference, re: Technological advancement and combat doctrine, obviously), construction times are not - for instance, an Arleigh Burke took circa one year to build, and two and a half to commission, a Nimitz took four years to build, seven years to commission - mass difference? Factor twelve.

That's not even a standard value because construction times often vary wildly between different classes of the same designation (Say, between different frigate types) depending on how much money parliament forks over, how new the technology being incorporated is, and so on and so forth. But it's safe to say that building times don't scale linearly with mass - more mass does, after all, also mean more volume, which means more surface area, which means more people/ machines being able to do the assembly work at any given time (Though I hasten to add that I'm not claiming perfect correlation between surface area to mass ratio and construction time...). And the individual components are, of course, not produced on site but all over the country - which basically removes that factor from the equation altogether.

[The Fedral Union]

Right quick question, can you guys ever for see a scenario in FT where one would need to use a Bayonet charge and how effective would it be? , in furtherance is training my troops in bayoneting superfluous?

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

Right quick question, can you guys ever for see a scenario in FT where one would need to use a Bayonet charge and how effective would it be? , in furtherance is training my troops in bayoneting superfluous?

Bayonets could be handy in cramped spaces, like onboard of a spaceship.

[Nyte]

Right quick question, can you guys ever for see a scenario in FT where one would need to use a Bayonet charge and how effective would it be? , in furtherance is training my troops in bayoneting superfluous?

Bayonets could be handy in cramped spaces, like onboard of a spaceship.

^This... It's one of the main reasons why I use a variety of melee weapons myself (although I don't use bayonets). They can be very useful in cramped, bloody conditions like boarding operations, and close in urban warfare operations. They're also quiet (in most cases) so they can be useful if you're trying to sneak through something like a military checkpoint at night.

As for whether or not its useful to train your troops for it, simply ask yourself if you can ever see a situation where your troops may get involved in a melee fight. If you can see it happening (and eventually it probably will happen) then they should probably be trained to fight that way so they don't get slaughtered, maimed, ripped apart, vivisected, decapitated, disemboweled, mutilated, etc...

[The Armed Republic of Dutch Coolness]

Anyways, the reason I suddenly popped up here...

I may sooner or later return to II with FT Roleplay. How would I start setting up a 'good' factbook?

[The Akasha Colony]

So has anyone else considered how their starship construction is structured? It might seem kind of silly to think about, but it helps for fleshing out your systems a bit, and could be particularly handy information when it comes to wars.

By structured, I essentially mean how components fabrication and ship assembly are located. One giant sprawling, do-everything facility? Hundreds of factories sprinkled across a system sending a constant stream of parts to an assembly yard? Culture style mobile factory vessels that can harvest and process their own resources, cranking out smaller starships from scratch? Are there chokepoints in the process? Does everything flow smoothly into place, or is construction time held up by waits on difficult, complex components?

A handful of large integrated production facilities heavily specialized in the construction of warships from modular components. From the very first component until the last molecular bonding of components, construction takes less than five days even for the largest ship (which has larger facilities dedicated to it), but actual yard integration takes only a few hours as the pre-fabricated modules are assembled. From there, the ship is delivered to its parent unit to replace their present ship (or to a new crew, if the ship is of a new named commission), who are responsible for conducting the shakedown and trials (which usually take a day or less).

From the delivery of components until its unit takes possession, it is unlikely that any beings will have contact with the ship; the process is entirely automated. There are not normally any bottlenecks in the production system, since demand is more predictable and infrastructure scaled accordingly.

Most commercial ships are made in similar yards, although with more diversity in types. Many civilian yards are actually more advanced than military yards, due to the pressure for maximized profits and elastic demand for ships. Occasional bottlenecks occur, usually following a sudden shift in design paradigm as shipbuilders race to catch up to the sudden new demand.

Prototype and repair yards cannot use this same method, though. In the case of the former, they are still automated, but generally geared toward flexibility over raw specialized efficiency. In the case of the latter, they are generally designed to cut out and remove any damaged sections, and replace them with new modules.

Right quick question, can you guys ever for see a scenario in FT where one would need to use a Bayonet charge and how effective would it be? , in furtherance is training my troops in bayoneting superfluous?

Bayonets survive mostly as multi-purpose tools rather than as practical weapons. I find it relatively unlikely at best you will have to resort to a bayonet charge in actual FT. The problem is that charging with a bayonet implies you have a gun to mount it on. Back in the era of single-shot muzzle loaders, it was very likely reloading would take too long, while bayonets obviously don't need to be reloaded. But nowadays, reloading is easy and troops carry hundreds of rounds of ammunition. If you completely run out of ammunition to the point the bayonet is all you have left, chances are it won't win the battle for you, so all it ends up doing is giving your troops a quick way to get killed.

[Vernii]

As an aside, I am currently working on a post compiling advice and assistance based upon my personal experiences and the experiences of others regarding interstellar and - for lack of a better term - "transnational" commerce as it relates to Future Tech. This post will probably be akin to my post on the creation of stellar and planetary systems, so semi-lengthy insofar as posts in this thread go. Look for it, in all likelihood, in the coming week; hope to have some rather familiar faces having either contributed or otherwise adding their experiences to the overall post.[/size][/align][/blocktext]

What types of contributions are you looking for btw?

[SquareDisc City]

On starship construction:

In the past my usual method has been to use modularised ships. Individual modules, such as a reactor or a missile battery, are produced somewhat production-line style on integrated space-based factories. Step one on the line is to take raw hydrogen, usually scooped up from the local star, and feed it into nucleosythesis reactors to make the desired heavy elements, an approach that arose because one of the UPT's first military bases was in a globular cluster where accessible planets and asteroids are rare. Then the manufacturing process goes through broadly conventionally, pretty much all robotic of course, until finished modules pop out the other end. Factories tend to be large enough to have many lines running in parallel, with maybe 5 to 20 in a system, and even with the automation they're major workplaces.

I'm not really settled on timing on that bit, but it's the longer part of the process. It's lengthened by extensive testing at every stage of the process, to make sure everything works properly since often materials are being pushed to their limits. In a major war the testing would end up skimped on to speed up the production, at the likely cost of some catastrophic failures in the field.

To make an actual spacecraft, the modules are put together somewhat lego-brick style, done in open space. That's the quick bit, and by keeping a stock of modules on hand new ships can be created rapidly to meet military demands or customer requirements, up to a point of course. (In practice I've not often RPed this since it means DESIGNING new ships OOCly.) The stock of spare modules is also used where possible to fix spacecraft - the simplest way is to split the ship, remove the failed module, and replace it. I think of it as our modern attitude to consumer electronics applied to heavy engineering.

I have toyed with the idea of doing the final assembly under high-g conditions, basically pre-stressing the spacecraft so it can better handle hard accelerations, but not made that canon. It would make for a very challenging assembly process, that's for sure.

That's the old method and I'll probably stick with it for many craft. However, I'm planning on complementing it with 3D printing. It's currently a big technology of course, and I just like the idea of scaling it up to a huge chamber in space capable of producing an entire starship dot by dot. I reckon that will fit more for cheaper ships and one-offs, while the highest-quality ones or those that need mass producing will still be manufactured in more dedicated facilities.

On bayonet charges:

Well I don't think many people expected bayonet charges to be useful in the modern era, but units of the British Army employed them to good effect in Afghanistan. So I wouldn't count out one happening in FT.

More generally, it makes sense to train troops in close combat. Use of a bayonet may or may not be part of that. Like Akasha says, as much as anything else it might depend on what your main infantry weapon is like. If it's generally shaped like a modern rifle, a bayonet is sensible. If it's a microwave weapon shaped like a satellite dish, sticking a knife on the front of it isn't so helpful.

[Oppressorion]

Wouldn't the use of modules lead to structural weaknesses? Joints are generally weaker than contiguous faces, the metal's grain is continuous so it's harder to break - maybe a long sheath that fits over the docked modules?

[The Akasha Colony]

Wouldn't the use of modules lead to structural weaknesses? Joints are generally weaker than contiguous faces, the metal's grain is continuous so it's harder to break - maybe a long sheath that fits over the docked modules?

Ships aren't made of contiguous pieces of metal. In the modern era, they're welded together from smaller sheets combined into modules, and these modules then fitted and welded together. In the FT era, you might get more exotic ways to bond them together, but these could be applied the same to a module as to an outer "hull."