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Future Tech Advice and Assistance Thread [O.O.C.]

A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events. [In character]

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Kassaran
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Postby Kassaran » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:28 pm

Ultimately in FT, it will come down to the story, and what you want to tell and how to do it.

I'm going to state, however, that there is a place where story, and logic, get in the way of each other and that NS tends to read like story overrides logic most often than not. I personally don't like this because when someone settles on a story they want to write, but has no limitations, they may write cheaply and with disregard for what could actually happen. They'll create plot-holes and logical fallacies and most often than not, this will result in a poor story, all because there was no sense of accountability towards the fidelity of the story. When I want to make something more true to life, I go and read on it, argue it, meditate on it... I don't just run with it. I get more from writing doing this. These are the advantages of writing within limitations your imagination didn't set, but rather reality has set. When you deal with a technology that exists outside of our current scope, by all means build it to suit your story first and then reality second, but realize that sometimes there are some technologies that don't change the nature of set rules and habits.
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Kyrusia
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Postby Kyrusia » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:31 pm

Kassaran wrote:Let's not have this debate here, it's just going to end in people stating it doesn't matter because story.
Kassaran wrote:Nope, this thread unfortunately is not for that. Trust me, I know. It's just an advice thread for when people want to know what they can or can't do. The answer being, they can do everything they want to because it's their story and can't do anything that risks the narrative of said story. That's what it all comes back to here on this site, not whether or not it should be done, but whether or not it can be, and it's always a yes that it can be.

We have people here who use WWI aesthetics and tactics and those here who use WWII aesthetics and tactics, and those here who use more 'modern' aesthetics and tactics and beyond. In the end, there's no narrative on the site for practicality, just for feasibility. Trying to take the dialogue beyond that risks souring the story and likewise limiting the potential of the stories people can come up with. You're honestly better off considering the F as standing for "Fantasy" as much as it does "Future" for the aesthetics that can crop up and going with it, because trying to push against it just gets you a lot of head-shaking and finger-wagging.

Because, ultimately, it doesn't matter. People get to roleplay how they choose, with whom they want, to what aesthetics they desire, and to what level of technical minutiae they desire to develop. Don't like how someone roleplays? Don't roleplay with them. Simple as that. If you're not a fan of more fantastical, Clarke's Third Law application, fair 'nough. Some people are, some people aren't. So yeah, at the end of the day, you're right: people get to do what they want insofar as it adheres the the rules, and you can ignore them for it all you want.

That doesn't mean there can't be lively discussions here about all matter of more technically-inclined topics - as the history of the thread itself shows. I'd also recommend you go back and review the actual thread, as there is all manner of advice against doing more absurdly-inclined things here, specifically for the degree of absurdity they incorporate. It's why "consistency" - and the concept of personal limitations - and "compromise" - to include the balancing of strengths against weaknesses - are so paramount in this tech level.

To quote a guide linked in the OP:
Hyperspatial Travel wrote:How much can I hold in my head?

No, realistically. Sit back and ask yourself how smart, how wise, how knowledgable you are. To do this, think about all the people you know. Think about the guy you're positively certain you're at least twice as smart as.

That's how smart you are. That guy.

I use a now-defunct player, The Cosmic Balance, to explain why some players can have multigalactic empires, and others really shouldn't. TCB was, to put it simply, hella smart. He knew more than most players on the boards. He was wrong on some things, of course. But when it came to imagining the social and psychological consequences of his hyper-advanced society, there was no-one better. He was the only player who was widely accepted as owning entire superclusters. Many players claim this sort of power, but the majority of people simply view them as hilariously bad wankers.

Why?

Because he could fit the consequences of his technology and power into his head. What he did made sense in that context.



Edit:
Kassaran wrote:I'm going to state, however, that there is a place where story, and logic, get in the way of each other and that NS tends to read like story overrides logic most often than not. I personally don't like this because when someone settles on a story they want to write, but has no limitations, they may write cheaply and with disregard for what could actually happen. They'll create plot-holes and logical fallacies and most often than not, this will result in a poor story, all because there was no sense of accountability towards the fidelity of the story. When I want to make something more true to life, I go and read on it, argue it, meditate on it... I don't just run with it. I get more from writing doing this. These are the advantages of writing within limitations your imagination didn't set, but rather reality has set. When you deal with a technology that exists outside of our current scope, by all means build it to suit your story first and then reality second, but realize that sometimes there are some technologies that don't change the nature of set rules and habits.

If this is what your intended commentary was toward, that is far more in-line with what most people aim toward than you seem to have inferred. Limitations are a part of the general fundamentals of this community for most players. "Rule of Cool" is not an excuse for absurdity, and was never intended to be it. It, handwavium, etc. have always been intended to allow for the greater wiggle room that a sci-fi setting, for most, generally aims to provide - not to ignore basic worldbuilding restrictions, excuse just blatant plot-holes, or tolerate abject absurdity. The problem arises in what "you" (speaking generally, not 'you' specifically) define as "absurd" or "illogical" and what "others" do; these do not always mesh, and they will never entirely mesh. That's simply the nature of freeform roleplay. The best one can do is recognize this and work to a degree of compromise with one's roleplay partners when a degree of conflict in this view arises.

That means some players are perfectly okay with not, in any way, adhering to physical laws - beyond the general acceptance of FTL - while others stick to things they view are closer to reality. What, to me, matters more than the extremes of either dogmatic adherence to reality or the wildly fantastical, is that what the player is writing - and the manner in which they are portraying it - is believable. I prize immersion and ensuring my suspension of disbelief is maintained more than anything else when I roleplay. If someone can maintain those two things, while still having the fantastical? It's kosher for me.

That doesn't mean I don't expect reasonable limitations and faults, nor that I don't expect practical lines of thought or simple narrative causality to be followed - I expect them to be. "For the story!" excuses neither of these things. "For the story!" excuses not being a rocket scientist or not having an overwhelming interest in technical minutiae, not ignoring the consequences of one's actions nor the natural limitations of one's concepts.



Charnea wrote:Isn't what what this thread is for, though? FT concepts and technology, and the discussing thereof?
I have seen people bring up the "no, because story" argument, and I personally find it a bit silly, because the discussion has nothing to do with any particular story and is purely on some technological concept or other such thing, and whether or not such a thing is viable.

Concept discussions are perfectly acceptable. The "you aren't required to worry about it due to story" is a line of advice provided largely for the benefit of the silent observer. FT has a history of having a perception of a high entry threshold to the casual observer, as there is an erroneous belief that one need be a proverbial theoretical physicist, rocket scientist, biologist, etc. to be involved - when this is not the case.
Last edited by Kyrusia on Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:10 pm, edited 8 times in total.
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Charnea
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Postby Charnea » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:43 pm

Well, on that note, I do have an issue with the feasibility of one of my ideas, slave soldiers to be precise. I've had discussion on the subject many times before, but given the certain degree of leniency FT provides, I am curious...could I get away with having an army comprised almost entirely of slave soldiers? The other thing to mention is I kinda have a two tiered system of slavery planned for my slaver state, consisting of those who have legal person-hood and thus enjoy many civil rights (effectively just regular citizens only with no agency, no real say in how their life is going to play out, so not unlike a lot of not slaves irl) and those who do not have person-hood, chattel slaves, in effect. I've called the former just regular slaves and the latter thralls.

My idea is to have battle thralls that, of course, have attrocious morale and will break and run upon contact, and so most commanders would not bother outfitting them with good equipment, so they would also be terrible in both attack and defense. Basically, a mob unit from a Total War game. Lots of dudes, low morale, low attack, low defense. Expendable bodies to hold a point, man a wall or throw in front of the enemy to wear them down or serve as human shields for our better troops.

About those better troops, mayhaps they could be proper slaves? Enjoying civil rights, most likely even getting paid an allowance and receiving rewards and vacation time for acts of heroism and such. These I think would be trained from childhood, or at least from youth, and so would be well disciplined and relatively skilled soldiers. I think also I would have them start full service at 16-20 years of age, and be granted full freedom and a nice retirement bonus at 50-55 more or less, as an added incentive to keep the slave soldiers soldiering loyally. I think upon their last year of required service, they would either be given a healthy sum of money and sent off with their freedom, or given the choice to re-enlist and become an officer, because of course our higher ranks would have to be free. If we even just get a few of these veteran soldiers coming back in to be officers or even just training personal, I think it would invaluable, just for the value of having such an experienced veteran coming back into higher service.

Anyway, that's my idea. Can it be done?

PS: The intent is also that a commanding officer is the owner of all his or her subordinates, even if he or she is a slave to their CO in turn. Its ... a semi-literal chain of command.
Last edited by Charnea on Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Kyrusia » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:09 pm

Charnea wrote:Well, on that note, I do have an issue with the feasibility of one of my ideas, slave soldiers to be precise. I've had discussion on the subject many times before, but given the certain degree of leniency FT provides, I am curious...could I get away with having an army comprised almost entirely of slave soldiers? The other thing to mention is I kinda have a two tiered system of slavery planned for my slaver state, consisting of those who have legal person-hood and thus enjoy many civil rights (effectively just regular citizens only with no agency, no real say in how their life is going to play out, so not unlike a lot of not slaves irl) and those who do not have person-hood, chattel slaves, in effect. I've called the former just regular slaves and the latter thralls.

My idea is to have battle thralls that, of course, have attrocious morale and will break and run upon contact, and so most commanders would not bother outfitting them with good equipment, so they would also be terrible in both attack and defense. Basically, a mob unit from a Total War game. Lots of dudes, low morale, low attack, low defense. Expendable bodies to hold a point, man a wall or throw in front of the enemy to wear them down or serve as human shields for our better troops.

While not slavery per se, you might find inspirational research materials in the concept of villeinage, with respect to "slaves" that lack free agency, but are granted personhood.

As for it being feasible, yes. Slave-based armies, at least in a limited context of the term "slave," were a thing. Though special in their case, and the definition and application varies, research on the Mamluks (and related ghulman) would not be unwarranted. Though if you intend for them to be essential cannon fodder, I would not recommend following the mamluk system heavily; much like the Jannisaries, it was more of a professional fighting-force that was drawn, initially, from enslaved individuals. The Jannisaries are also, themselves, largely special case, but I know you're already familiar.

Charnea wrote:About those better troops, mayhaps they could be proper slaves? Enjoying civil rights, most likely even getting paid an allowance and receiving rewards and vacation time for acts of heroism and such. These I think would be trained from childhood, or at least from youth, and so would be well disciplined and relatively skilled soldiers. I think also I would have them start full service at 16-20 years of age, and be granted full freedom and a nice retirement bonus at 50-55 more or less, as an added incentive to keep the slave soldiers soldiering loyally. I think upon their last year of required service, they would either be given a healthy sum of money and sent off with their freedom, or given the choice to re-enlist and become an officer, because of course our higher ranks would have to be free. If we even just get a few of these veteran soldiers coming back in to be officers or even just training personal, I think it would invaluable, just for the value of having such an experienced veteran coming back into higher service.

Anyway, that's my idea. Can it be done?

PS: The intent is also that a commanding officer is the owner of all his or her subordinates, even if he or she is a slave to their CO in turn. Its ... a semi-literal chain of command.

This, reading further, however, may actually benefit from adopting a mamluk-based system. To quote selected portions of the Wiki:
Wikipedia: Mamluk wrote:While mamluks were purchased as property, their status was above ordinary slaves, who were not allowed to carry weapons or perform certain tasks. In places such as Egypt, from the Ayyubid dynasty to the time of Muhammad Ali of Egypt, mamluks were considered to be "true lords" and "true warriors", with social status above the general population in Egypt and the Levant. In a sense they were like enslaved mercenaries.

In the Middle Ages, the Mamlukes took up the practice of furusiyya "chivalry", although Mamluk knights were slaves until their service ended. The Arabic term for a knight was fāris (plural fursān), The faris and the notion of furusiyya originated in pre-Muslim Persian brotherhoods. Within the Muslim world, the fursān became prized as ideal warriors.

[...]

Under the Mamluk Sultanate of Cairo, Mamluks were purchased while still young males. They were raised in the barracks of the Citadel of Cairo. Because of their isolated social status (no social ties or political affiliations) and their austere military training, they were trusted to be loyal to their rulers. When their training was completed, they were discharged, but remained attached to the patron who had purchased them. Mamluks relied on the help of their patron for career advancement, and likewise the patron’s reputation and power depended on his recruits. A Mamluk was "bound by a strong esprit de corps to his peers in the same household."

This is just the tip of the iceberg, however, and I would advise doing greater research beyond Wikipedia if you intend to go this route. There is some ongoing debate about the status of the Mamluks and exactly how this system worked.

Either way, just off the top of my head, your "thrall" class are going to be the most logistically troublesome. As property, they're going to lack incentive, which means some manner of positive/negative reinforcement. I'm sure you can devise this, however, though it will be a major issue: "Do I fight and die, or retreat and die?" That's not exactly an incentive for a fighting force, even for cannon fodder.

The main issue, at least for "thrall" waves, will be in transport - or one of the main issues, anyway. One has to consider that they are essentially taking an army of captives and transporting them n-distance, either across land/sea or space; depending on contingent, they may also heavily out-number the controlling authorities on said transport, and conceivably armed (or having some manner of potential access to arms aboard the vessel in question). That's a potentially disastrous scenario for your administrators and officers were they to decide to rebel. Questions arise in how one deals with this, especially when one must take into consideration their effectiveness as combat forces - even if they are cannon fodder.

It's unlikely, for example, that they're going to exactly be thrilled at these prospects. They're going to be even less happy if they're held in some manner of bondage - be it classical or fancy sci-fi collars/chips/psionic handwavium. If they're mistreated in transit, as well, you're no longer just destroying property (and a potential laborer's efficiency), you are now directly adding to your casualty count before you ever even get on the battlefield.
Last edited by Kyrusia on Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Charnea » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:02 am

Mmm. I think the thrall class of slave would be most useful in raw production areas of the economy. Working fields, working mines, clearing land in the colonies, etc. Chattel slavery inhibits training and education, so any higher function would have to be carried out by either freedmen or the higher rank of slave, slavery lite as it were. I think that's the key issue with slavery in terms of a labor system. Chattel slavery can only function in a most basic economy, one that produces raw goods only. To have any level of manufacturing, in other words to have any degree of more advanced economic systems, you would need skilled laborers and educated professionals, something chattel slavery simply does not allow. Slaves with rights, with pay and legal personhood I think would be trained and educated in youth and could therefore serve higher functions in the economy, allowing slavery to persist even as economic advancement increases. (I suppose the same is also true in warfare. As you said, the use of chattel slaves in battle would be very limited, and the costs would outweigh the benefits in most situations. In a complex and "modern" battlefield, only the well trained, disciplined and loyal slave soldiers would have a place)

Whats the take on that, is that a feasible idea? Could light slavery support higher levels of manufacturing and higher economic complexity?

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Postby Torsiedelle » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:10 pm

Despite me avoiding most NS threads, I figured I could at least post some idea here for different alien societies. I would go into more detail on them all, since I have written into a few of them quite a bit, but I don't want to make these descriptions too wordy. Anyways...

The Vadaash. This race is a molluscoid Humanoid race from a world that's similar to Pre-Cambrian Earth. Their world is mostly dominated by shallow oceans, where the Vadaash live, with the majority of the planet's wildlife also living in the water. Animals include giant carnivorous scorpions, armored crabs, and man-sized clam arachnids, which the Vadaash use in war. Their homeworld has two moons, one of which is wet like Vadaasha, but which has a more temperate climate...think Cascadia compared to the Tropics. Their moon has its own intelligent race similar to the Vadaash, and the two races have been in contact since radio and satellite technology was created, allowing the two to unite once space flight was achieved.


The Risians. The Risians hail from a large, reptile-dominated world, which is covered in swampland, savanna, and deserts, The Risians are large, alligator like reptiles, which can move upright or on all fours. While they unified as a species very early on, they were slow to develop due to their not wanting to harm the environment. The Risians have a Mesoamerican style culture, and are highly spiritual; they worship a sun god, and erect giant pyramids and sun temples to hold rituals to honor their god. As a space-faring race, they are highly territorial, and friendly primarily to other reptiles. They protect their space because they want to preserve their racial and cultural heritage, and to protect their natural resources.


The Gorrum. The Gorrum are a large race from a dense planet, similar to Hippos or Rhinos. They have a vaguely Central African culture, but it has been all but forgotten as their society is dominated by a dystopian dictatorship in which every citizen contributes to a runaway military-industrial complex. In their past, a drug was used to control soldiers, giving them a highly euphoric feeling and greatly improving their physical abilities. The drug came to be used by the entire populace, and over time they developed a very real dependence on the drug, which they would die without. The only way to continue receiving the drug is for the Gorrum to continue to expand their military and wage endless wars to increase their Empire's prestige.


Novablooms. Novablooms are centipede-like plant-animal hybrid beings from a different dimension, and escaped to this universe when their own was destroyed by entropic forces. The Novablooms are almost mistaken for a hivemind in the way they flawlessly work together, always improving their homeworlds and contributing to the betterment of their species. They seem extremely dangerous at first, as they don't fully comprehend how life in this universe works, and they communicate through psychic signals and high pitched shrieks. They can also open portals and "rips" in spacetime and utilize arcane powers with luminescent appendages on their heads, which they use to interact with their environments (and where they get their name from). The Novablooms themselves are masters of cosmic magic and the arcane, and can interact with forces that are mentally damaging to others.


The Aphrodites. The Aphrodites are Humanoids from Aphrodisia, or Venus. They could either be from a universe where Earth is uninhabitable while Venus is temperate, in a universe where both worlds are inhabited, with them knowing of Humans, or in the distant past when Earth was still young, and when Venus had not yet been rendered uninhabitable by its greenhouse effect.

The Aphrodites are a highly advanced race, but they have yet to discover reliable FTL methods of travel. Their space-faring expeditions are often carried out by vessels that can travel just below the speed of light, and that are usually built to house crews in cryostasis. Other forms of travel used to reach other worlds or stars would include volatile space-time surfing and possibly wormholes.
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Postby Vocenae » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:10 pm

Someone was clearly playing Stellaris... :P

First off, the more work and effort you put into them, the better. We're all nerds here, and we love to read sci fi stuff. So don't be afraid to go too wordy.

That being said, have you read the guide on RPing Humans and Aliens, and realize the pros and cons of both? Basically, if you're committed to going alien, as you seem to be, for it to work on NS and have any true depth then you need to probably just start off with one alien species and focus on them first. Once you've got them pretty fleshed out with their culture, the overall setting in which you're you're going to be playing them as (since nations in FT are treated more as settings for interesting stories with most of the actual 'nation' part taking place in the background). Then you move on and add another, you flesh it out, etc and so forth.

So again, I'd just pick one to focus on building up. Save the others for future integration once you've got a solid foundation or get rid of them.

Starting with what you have, The Vadaash are definitely the most interesting. They have an alien name that stands out and the planet you've made for them is interesting. IF you absolutely have to have life on one of the moons I'd say re-work it a bit. Maybe go like it was in Star Wars Legends for Onderon and Dxun and have that particular moon, at some point in time, been so close to the planet that they created and 'atmospheric bridge' and you can say that flying critters migrated to the moon on accident and then over the millions of years the moon moved away and the fliers became their own thing. Again, I would suggest drop that angle entirely for the sake of starting off simple because simple is good.

The others are pretty generic. Risians makes me think of Risa from Star Trek, and then I imagined if the Gorn (basically walking alligators for the unfamiliar) colonizing the place. Their reasoning for being territorial is eh. I mean, space is endless and absolutely filled with resources. No one really has a reason, outside of just needing a plot device, to go attack someone else for more asteroids. Warfare in FT is pretty rare anyway, mainly just skirmishes between players. I wouldn't have them be automatically 'friendly' towards other aliens that appear reptilian. It doesn't really make much sense because whoever might be playing those reptiles is still an alien nation. Xenophobia is a thing, and it doesn't make sense to exclude everyone except other scalebacked aliens.

Gorrum sound like the Cabal from Destiny, and Aggressor nations (nations that exist only to fight) have a extremely short shelf life in FT. Wars in FT are extremely rare, it takes a lot of planning and when they do happen, it changes how the FT astropolitical spacescape works. So most people really like to invest in time and reasoning and plots to build up to them, and aliens that exist only to fight all the time tend to get ignored pretty quickly. They're just a boring type of nation to play. Also the name makes me think of Gollum from Lord of the Rings.

Novablooms. First off I'd change the name. It's just silly. IF you want your species to be respected then they need a decent name. Again, you're running into the pure aggressor thing with them, on top of the fact that hive minds typically end up ignored for the same reason, they're boring, they don't have individual characters to interact with and above all else, you're not a hivemind so try as you might, you're not really gonna be able to really make it work. Hive minds and 'swarm' type nations also have a bpretty bad history in FT, because players in the past have always tried to use them as an iWin or instant victory through endless numbers nation. I'd dump these guys, to be completely honest.

Final dudes, again, got to have a a better name. We also, in FT, have a concept called Fractal Sol. It's explained in the OP of this thread, but TLDR, Earth is a Multiverse. So you don't really need to toss in dimensional hoo-ha for it. These guys come from a fractal Sol where Earth and Venus are switched. Other than that, not really much to say other than you should just go with wormholes as your FTL for simplification. There's just not a lot here to go on.

All in all, I think the Vadaash have the best opportunity to become something interesting IF you work on developing them. Develop their culture, society, how they walk talk eat so on and so forth, because you're going to be doing far more character level RP in FT than anything else. Build your setting and make it interesting to interact with.

I'd honestly scrap or put the rest in storage for extensive re-writes, once you've gotten a better feel for FT and what does and doesn't work both in the community, and for yourself.
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Postby Torsiedelle » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:03 pm

TBH the last two were ones I just winged, and the Vadaash were the very first I thought of a few months back, so at least that's good to hear that they're interesting. I do know the Star Wars bit with the atmospheric bridge, since I know another player who used that.

I knew Earth/Sol was a popular starting point. I never knew it had a term though, so that's cool.

I HAVE thought of Human civs a bit, and I'm not totally averse to them, but I do like aliens more in FT settings.
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Postby Kyrusia » Tue Oct 03, 2017 4:46 pm

Torsiedelle wrote:TBH the last two were ones I just winged, and the Vadaash were the very first I thought of a few months back, so at least that's good to hear that they're interesting. I do know the Star Wars bit with the atmospheric bridge, since I know another player who used that.

I knew Earth/Sol was a popular starting point. I never knew it had a term though, so that's cool.

I HAVE thought of Human civs a bit, and I'm not totally averse to them, but I do like aliens more in FT settings.

Speaking of "human civilizations"...

Something also often recommended - despite how it may sometimes have negative connotations - is to aim specifically for "rubber-forehead aliens." In truth, this is really probably a poor term for it, but it's stuck, so, what y' going to do, eh? :P Anyway, what we generally mean is aim for an alien species that humans can relate to, even if through some funky glasses (weird perspective). A lot of players sometimes make the mistake in their initial worldbuilding that their aliens must approach critical levels of originality. Fact of the matter is, while you should always aim to execute something unique to yourself (and, hopefully, "unique enough" in general), "originality for the sake of it" can sometimes be more of a hindrance than a help. As Voc said: simple is good; a good, homemade piece of bread, created with time, love, and devotion won't need butter, jelly, or jam to be appreciated for how absolutely delicious it is.

Just "out of the air" example: if someone makes an alien species that is composed of nebular globules of adipose tissue and has more in common with cnidarians than anything else, and they communicate exclusively through a complex light-based language through bioluminescent ganglia... they're going to have a hard time being related-to by other players, much less have a difficult time interacting on an In-Character level. This is simply due to the fact that, while entirely possible (it's been done), it takes a lot of work to pull it off 1) believably, 2) in a way others find interesting, and 3) in a way that does not just become painful to write for the creator. Not to mention that the readers themselves aren't globular jellyfish with glowing appendages...

This is a very roundabout way of recommending that, when you do your alien worldbuilding, don't throw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater. Don't make this more difficult for yourself than you really need to, but also indulge your imagination in the process. Keep in mind that, fundamentally, in roleplay you're aiming for interaction with other roleplayers, that means catering a bit to the readers' and your potential roleplay partners' sensibilities. To use the above example again: while maybe they can communicate among themselves only with light, maybe their vestigial mouth-parts are capable of producing melodic sounds that are analogous to more comparable languages; sure, maybe some of the context is lost in discussions with them, but that is a point of relation - something the reader can readily infer personality from and, thus, invest in the character (and their endeavors). It also makes it easier to handwave the common trope that "everyone speaks English Galactic Standard" (with or without the proverbial "Universal Translator").

This is obviously just a hyperbolic example though. :P

On a more personal note, definitely find the Vadaash the most interesting out of the bunch. Also get kudos for pre-Cambrian-esque biomes; I don't often (personally) see those explored. Those sort of worlds, in general, have a lot of room for exploration that sometimes get... glossed-over in favor of making every world with a preponderance of tropical and sub-tropical environments "resort worlds" and calling it done. (I myself am somewhat guilty of this, from time to time, unfortunately.) Though it should be kept in mind that global biomes would be rare, if they occur at all outside of planetary extremes, so you can give yourself even more wiggle room for internal variation there.

...And I still have yet to play Stellaris...
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Rostavykhan
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Postby Rostavykhan » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:26 pm

I'm familiar with rubber-forehead and other terms, no worries. I enjoy Sci-fi an FT a lot, I just never have a reason to get into it on NS, and my past experiences have sort of made me hesitant to do much, since I either got flaked on or dealt with some bad eggs. I guess that's sort of made me act a bit aggressive towards FT at times.

I do enjoy strange aliens, but more Humanoid ones are cool. As for Pre-Cambrian stuff, I like the period; lots of trilobites and fucking giant scorpions are radical. A global biome would be a bit silly, however.

I have been personally wanting to do a different race, but I still work on the Vadaash and others from time to time, just in case I ever have a reason to make them or use them in an RP. I've not had a chance to get into Nation RP for a long time, but I still often take interest in making weird Nation ideas just in case.

Actually, TBH if I have to think of an alien race I'd like to play or write, I like The Tau, or Cabal. More Humanoid races with the sleek technological aesthetic and that aren't too similar to Humans, like having different color skin, or hooves instead of feet.
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Postby Kyrusia » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:06 pm

Rostavykhan wrote:I'm familiar with rubber-forehead and other terms, no worries. I enjoy Sci-fi an FT a lot, I just never have a reason to get into it on NS, and my past experiences have sort of made me hesitant to do much, since I either got flaked on or dealt with some bad eggs. I guess that's sort of made me act a bit aggressive towards FT at times.

Everyone has had a bad experience with someone at some point. I wouldn't let it deter you. Keep an open attitude and be generally amenable, and you'll be fine.

Rostavykhan wrote:I have been personally wanting to do a different race, but I still work on the Vadaash and others from time to time, just in case I ever have a reason to make them or use them in an RP. I've not had a chance to get into Nation RP for a long time, but I still often take interest in making weird Nation ideas just in case.

Actually, TBH if I have to think of an alien race I'd like to play or write, I like The Tau, or Cabal. More Humanoid races with the sleek technological aesthetic and that aren't too similar to Humans, like having different color skin, or hooves instead of feet.

Lots of folks like the Tau. We always try and recommend against direct rips, though - not saying that's what you meant, just including as a general disclaimer. You could, though, start with them (and the Cabal or what-else-you-like) as sources of inspiration, taking from them what you like and enjoy, then figuring out how to make them work together (without it just being a haphazardly thrown-together hodge-podge, obviously). A lot of people do that: start at a point they're familiar with - be it from history, a pre-existing franchise, etc. (usually a bit of everything) - and work out from there, taking the source material not in sum, but using bits and pieces to craft a unique and "original" star-state by putting those individual puzzle pieces together in a new and different way.
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Tierra Prime
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Postby Tierra Prime » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:26 am

I often wonder about the logistics of a first contact scenario and how they are best approached. How are you supposed to approach a new species when you have no idea what kind of pathogens they might be carrying? Do you approach them in a sealed NBC suit and ask for blood samples and body scans, or do you just casually meet them and hope for the best? How do you know if they are even going to be able to understand you?

Some players work around the communication barrier by using so-called universal translators, but even if you go down the "realistic" route by explaining it off as an implant (I've done this) that interprets body language or uses telepathy to read an individual's mind, it's not going to work in all cases. Psychic species are probably going to be guarded against any attempts at telepathy, and there are going to be some species whose body language you just cannot read.
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Postby Dimoniquid » Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:25 am

Tierra Prime wrote:
Some players work around the communication barrier by using so-called universal translators, but even if you go down the "realistic" route by explaining it off as an implant (I've done this) that interprets body language or uses telepathy to read an individual's mind, it's not going to work in all cases. Psychic species are probably going to guarded against any attempts at telepathy, and there are going to be some species whose body language you just cannot read.

There's also an ethic component to those sorts of things; the Doctor Who episode "The End of the World" introduces us to the concept of the telepathic circuit that allows people from different planets and timezones to converse with each other in their own languages; the Doctor says that it "the TARDIS sort of gets in your head", and Rose immediately disapproves because she never consented to such an action. I doubt some aliens would like telepathic devices to be rooting around in their head, whether its just for translation or otherwise.

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Postby Kassaran » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:05 am

I usually get around that in my region thanks to my outstandingly high SA score. First contact with my race generally means you hear a few seconds of extreme high-frequency noise (not high decibel, just a ringing that slowly descends into audible, easily registered noise, followed by the conjugation of sounds needed to represent speech) as the AI-construct or supercomputer in charge of the vessel you've come into contact with, scans, downloads, translates, and attempts to make sense of the mumbo-jumbo it's just obtained. That process generally doesn't take too long, unless damage to specific areas of the AI construct or supercomputer have been done, but that's all easily recovered through backup processes and auxiliary programs meant to supplement the primary in executing all actions and reactions. In short, the Kassaran never actually care enough to learn, nor speak, a foreign language, they just use an intermediary and they will gladly inform you of such. Generally they have a harder time talking to equally advanced, or much further advanced, species because probing computer databases tends to be something you're on the lookout for more at such tech levels, if not straight out psionic invasion of your mind.
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Postby Prusslandia » Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:39 am

Are biological servant species viable and generally acceptable? Organic constructs grown, spawned, or otherwise artificially developed, created for a singular purpose. An example are the Lizardmen in WFB. Creations of the Old Ones, they are innately loyal and cannot deviate from the Great Plan. A Saurus is a soldier, and that is the function it serves. It doesn't scheme for power or lust for riches, it simply performs it's function as intended, unable to deviate from the programming it's been given.

tl;dr- Organic automata, thoughts?

(I'm not looking to talk specifically about WFB, but thought it'd be a good start point as an example)
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Postby SquareDisc City » Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:53 pm

If it's first contact with another reasonably advanced species, a simple excuse to get round the language barrier is that they've been listening to galactic communications for long enough to pick up a commonly used language. Doesn't work out for contact with primitive species though; in that event, expect a lot of mime unless you go down the magic translator route. Also might not work out for species with very different biology - the contactees might think they understood the language in the transmissions only for it to turn out they were interpreting it as patterns of psychoelectric paraquanta and had never even imagined the idea of using air pressure waves to communicate.

As for hazards of first contact, well it's good sense to wear an environment suit, spacesuit, or similar upon first visit to any new world. Assume the environment is lethal until you gather evidence otherwise. But a first contact need to be a physical visit, it could be over communications. Conversely a first visit could be made without making contact; unless a planet is one giant city there will be deserted wilderness areas.
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Postby Kyrusia » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:15 pm

Prusslandia wrote:Are biological servant species viable and generally acceptable? Organic constructs grown, spawned, or otherwise artificially developed, created for a singular purpose. An example are the Lizardmen in WFB. Creations of the Old Ones, they are innately loyal and cannot deviate from the Great Plan. A Saurus is a soldier, and that is the function it serves. It doesn't scheme for power or lust for riches, it simply performs it's function as intended, unable to deviate from the programming it's been given.

tl;dr- Organic automata, thoughts?

(I'm not looking to talk specifically about WFB, but thought it'd be a good start point as an example)

Viable? Maybe. Generally accepted? Depends on their execution, like with most things; namely, if it's done for power-gaming or number-wanking reasons (or appears prone to it), it may have trouble.

I think a more apropos way to look at this is how these characters might be written for; they could theoretically suffer from similar narrative faults as drone armies, for example: a lack of personality, lack of individuality, lack of personal drives, and thus a lack of a reason for your readers/RP partners to invest in them (and, thus, invest in reading or participating in your threads). Star Wars got around this by having their little clones, as an example, having their own personalities, drives, etc.

Of course, an alternative would be, for example, chairdogs from the Dune franchise: genetically-engineered minutiae capable of performing basic and rudimentary actions, versus complex tasks. That way you wouldn't potentially be cutting down on your perspective character pool, so to speak.

A third alternative is, simply, don't make this drive absolute - no matter the level of proverbial Space Magic™ involved. Though it'd be easier to make it a cultural imperative than a bio-psychological impulse. Going about it this way would more readily allow for deviation, allow for individual characterization more readily, and places an emphasis for you to worldbuild your culture in such a way that devotion to caste/class-objectives is reinforced (and potentially enforced directly, through various means), but as with all societies, it leads to the rise of outlier groups. This is a simple layer of complexity and flavor that would add to such a concept, address most of the issues with it being potentially abused, generate a weakness/point of failure in the system (which is always good, as nothing in reality is perfect 100% of the time), and still let you have the meat of your idea.
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Postby SquareDisc City » Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:13 pm

Hmmm. If on the other hand you do make "it simply performs it's function as intended, unable to deviate from the programming it's been given" an absolute you can then explore the unintended consequences of that, along the lines of what Asimov did in the I, Robot stories. The servants themselves may never make interesting characters but their masters can be, as they deal with the way their "perfect servants" are anything but.
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Postby Rostavykhan » Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:06 pm

When I think Bio-constructs, I think the Jem'Hadar as soldiers for The Dominion, or how The Flood from Halo or Necromorphs from Dead Space have various constructs for fighting and breeding and terraforming. Something like that would be neat.

I'm usually not a fan of alien races like that - Again, I prefer the ones with sleek sci-fi aesthetics and lots of tans and silvers and lasers. Still, I think The Flood and Necromorphs are cool. I know the flood have a hivemind though, and as for Necromorphs, it's like a weird in-between where they're all controlled by a Marker, but they seem to act on their own in most cases too? Then again, Necromorphs are just mindless killing machines.
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Postby Kyrusia » Thu Oct 05, 2017 4:25 pm

Rostavykhan wrote:I'm usually not a fan of alien races like that - Again, I prefer the ones with sleek sci-fi aesthetics and lots of tans and silvers and lasers. Still, I think The Flood and Necromorphs are cool. I know the flood have a hivemind though, and as for Necromorphs, it's like a weird in-between where they're all controlled by a Marker, but they seem to act on their own in most cases too? Then again, Necromorphs are just mindless killing machines.

That's a big hurdle with a lot of hivemind-based species in science-fiction: the default to aggression. This works in pre-existing franchises, where they are obviously meant to be antagonists in a controlled setting and canon (xenomorphs in Alien, the Flood in Halo, necromorphs in Dead Space, Tyranids in Warhammer 40k, Zerg in Starcraft, etc.). It works for those things, because they're designed with that setting in mind.

When people do hiveminds in FT, they often forget to do the same, leading to a situation where you get either a raw, aggressor species (that gets droll to interact with after a time, because not everyone is going to want to do what amounts to the same RP over and over again), such a strict hivemind that there are too few characters with individual personalities for the reader/RP partner to invest in (and can lead to creator lack of interest like outlined earlier), or a combination of both. Always best to avoid these problems with unique work-arounds, because they're most certainly hurdles to interaction and broader appeal. There are a number of work-arounds for this - the easiest being just making them more selective in their targeting/breeding/consumption of biomass/etc. than "EAT/KILL ALL THE THINGS!"; the other can amount to a unique style of collective intelligence where, perhaps, the central creature isn't... well, lacks absolute hive dominance, allowing for individuality to arise.

The latter bit is particularly interesting, since it lets the player create less of a "hivemind" and more of a "gestalt collective intelligence": it is greater than the sum of its parts, with the generalized, species-wide imperative(s) overriding individuality in times of crisis (read: points important to the thread's plot), and allows for wiggle room for things like cadet branches or divergent sub-species/strains of the entity itself - which is always neat. Who doesn't like internecine warfare? x]
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Tierra Prime
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Postby Tierra Prime » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:01 pm

Some very good points from everyone regarding what to do in a first contact scenario and how to establish communications. I'm still somewhat confused about what to do if you agree to meet someone on board your ship? Do you meet them in a sealed environmental suit and then vent the atmosphere when they are gone? How do you prevent something like the genocide of the native Americans, where smallpox nearly wiped the natives out because they had no immunity to the disease? Surely you have to meet them face to face eventually? Do you go down the route of caution and request samples of all viruses and diseases known to them (Plus their treatments) so that you can be prepared, or do you just wing it and hope for the best?

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Postby Kassaran » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:07 pm

Tierra Prime wrote:
Some very good points from everyone regarding what to do in a first contact scenario and how to establish communications. I'm still somewhat confused about what to do if you agree to meet someone on board your ship? Do you meet them in a sealed environmental suit and then vent the atmosphere when they are gone? How do you prevent something like the genocide of the native Americans, where smallpox nearly wiped the natives out because they had no immunity to the disease? Surely you have to meet them face to face eventually? Do you go down the route of caution and request samples of all viruses and diseases known to them (Plus their treatments) so that you can be prepared, or do you just wing it and hope for the best?

+Ideally a bloodwork tradeoff would be best, including a complete medical writeup in an easy-to-understand data medium as to enable the most thorough chance at assured germ safety. I'll admit that the general lack of blood work ups that science fiction does when encountering new races is dumb. Additionally, so are most of the things that portray military scientists as actually having the audacity to assume safety or danger based off of the highly-invasive bloodwork testing done on another species. I'm not even that dumb and I'm not a xenobiologist. Rest assured, true first contact scenarios would likely take decades to get done due to scheduled meetups, extensive testing, retesting, and backup testing of backup samples, all to ensure the saftey of things and the minimum required protection needed to be used when interacting with the xeno race.
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Zarkenis Ultima wrote:Tristan noticed footsteps behind him and looked there, only to see Eric approaching and then pointing his sword at the girl. He just blinked a few times at this before speaking.

"Put that down, Mr. Eric." He said. "She's obviously not a chicken."
The Knockout Gun Gals wrote:
The United Remnants of America wrote:You keep that cheap Chinese knock-off away from the real OG...

bloody hell, mate.
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Rostavykhan
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Postby Rostavykhan » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:45 pm

Hmm...I wonder how many Star Trek fans have thought of how Alt-Universe factions on NS would technically be canon because of how Star Trek loves its time travel and multiverse fuckery.
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Postby Vocenae » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:29 pm

No other nation is canon to any player unless they choose to have it be so. That being said, given how it's hard for extra galactic nations to get recognized by the community, players claiming to be from, say, dimension c-137 or alternate timelines will have a much, much harder time.

The closest you'll really see anything like that accepted without skepticism from the community are players that come from Earth/Sol, because of Fractal Sol.
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Postby Rostavykhan » Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:01 pm

Vocenae wrote:No other nation is canon to any player unless they choose to have it be so. That being said, given how it's hard for extra galactic nations to get recognized by the community, players claiming to be from, say, dimension c-137 or alternate timelines will have a much, much harder time.

The closest you'll really see anything like that accepted without skepticism from the community are players that come from Earth/Sol, because of Fractal Sol.


noted.

Of course, I wasn't really getting at "saying you're from X galaxyy or dimension every time you meet a new race" thing. I was thinking like how some MT and PT nations are like Alt-History versions Byzantium or Germany where a certain event never happened/happened differently, making it like a mirror of itself...if that makes sense.

Was just getting at that, but with an established Sci-fi universe to work off of instead of history.

That, or a nation in or tied into the universe, which uses ST vocabulary and tech.
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