Future Tech Advice and Assistance Thread [O.O.C.]

[Neornith]

Thank you to both of you. Just making sure that fighters and whatnot aren't usually counted when describing really big fleets.

I've always assumed that drones, fighters, missiles, and so on get ignored in the 'count' of a fleet, and indeed that kind of thing might be spammed. Although it's likely that something like Conservation Of Ninjutsu applies - one fighter takes out the battlestation with a critical shot but a thousand would be a largely ignored nuisance. Because that's how stories tend to go.

I quite expect that at least the first the fighter craft fight an enemy not of their own civilization, there will be heavy losses for them.

I generally only count the big ships, corvettes and up. And that might differ from player to player.

As a side note fighter to fighter space combat is epic cool in my book, have fun and make sure to talk it out with the other player(s) on how you would like things to go and listen to their input as well their ideas and you should have a pretty good story on your hands

[Lubyak]

I generally don't count fighters in my ship counts. Usually I define ships as frigates and other such ships on up.

[Vocenae]

I don't really count fighters in the same sense (largely because I, like many other FT players, don't specify how many ships I have in my navy, but since I design my own ships using DOGA, I do generally try to have a number of strike craft figured out because part of designing a ship and making it look good (especially in a program like DOGA) is to take into account internal space. When I used supercarriers way way way back in the day, I had about three hundred fighters per main hangar, now it's drastically reduced. As of right now the only capital ship I have any 'hard numbers' for is one of my frigates, which can carry twenty fighters, sixteen in launch configuration with four additional in 'storage'.

I suppose the case could be made for also bolting drones across the entire surface of a starship and then releasing them once you engage in battle and thus make all your starships into carrier types, but I feel that would break my aesthetic.

Corvettes, for me, are not fighter craft but 'super light' capital ships. Have the size of my smallest frigates, quick, but lightly armed and armored, generally about a crew of twentyish. I follow the Homeworld style of ship classes (mostly), strike craft being the smallest, then shuttles, then corvettes, light frigates, frigates, heavy frigates, destroyers then cruisers. Back in the day I had heavy cruisers and supercarriers, but those days are long past.

[Northwest Slobovia]

I happened across a quotation which seems relevant to this thread:

Naval combat is conducted almost exclusively by machines -- machines that are in many cases so huge and grand that they often seem to take on a life and personality of their own that transcend the tiny figures that inhabit them. Yet, in the final analysis, it is men who live in the ship, command and fight the ship, and often die in the ship. Their story, no matter how seemingly eclipsed by the great vessels they serve in, is the still the fundamental story to be related.

--Jonathan Parshall and Anthony Tully, Shattered Sword: the Untold story of the Battle of Midway

[OMGeverynameistaken]

I don't include fighters in my fleet counts, although I do have my capital ship factbook which has a listing of the compliment of each ship. I will include the count of corvette-equivalents (torpedo boats and destroyers) which are often deployed as 'parasite ships' docked with capital ships to take advantage of their superior FTL capability and fuel storage. The Russian fleet is certainly stereotypically 'bottom heavy' since each capital ship is somewhat unique and generally considered something akin to a work of art, particularly ships in the battleship/dreadnought category.



In somewhat related news, I'm working on a bit of reintroduction. This will generally assume that Space Russia has already encountered a few extrastellar civilizations and is something of a known factor, since we all know how the 'lets talk for five minutes so the universal translator can work out their language' thread tends to go. I've fiddled things around a bit and changed up the timeline, the details of which will all be laid out in this thread, but I'm thinking the main theme will center around the commissioning of a monument to certain past struggles. There will, of course, be a great degree of pageantry, lots of drinking, and somebody will probably be shot and/or stabbed by the time the evening's done, because really, you can't say your party was a success if nobody gets shot or stabbed.

I'm also thinking this new Russian Empire will be rather more xenophobic, at least as far as egregiously non-humanoid species go. Two legs good, four legs bad, sort of thing. So that might be something to consider before involvement.

[Jubaal]

Is this like some kind of FT discussion thread or something?

[Lubyak]

Is this like some kind of FT discussion thread or something?

Yes. This thread is for discussing FT as it occurs within NS RP. Feel free to look around, and be sure to read the OP. It may be long, but there's a lot of good resources there, and it's basically the FAQ.

[SquareDisc City]

Advice and Assistance for all aspects (not just the technology itself) of NS Future Tech roleplaying and worldbuilding. Try and avoid excessive arguments. Kyrusia can probably speak with more authority on what should and shouldn't be in the thread.

[Hydraic Empire]

I don't really count fighters in the same sense (largely because I, like many other FT players, don't specify how many ships I have in my navy, but since I design my own ships using DOGA, I do generally try to have a number of strike craft figured out because part of designing a ship and making it look good (especially in a program like DOGA) is to take into account internal space. When I used supercarriers way way way back in the day, I had about three hundred fighters per main hangar, now it's drastically reduced. As of right now the only capital ship I have any 'hard numbers' for is one of my frigates, which can carry twenty fighters, sixteen in launch configuration with four additional in 'storage'.

I suppose the case could be made for also bolting drones across the entire surface of a starship and then releasing them once you engage in battle and thus make all your starships into carrier types, but I feel that would break my aesthetic.

Corvettes, for me, are not fighter craft but 'super light' capital ships. Have the size of my smallest frigates, quick, but lightly armed and armored, generally about a crew of twentyish. I follow the Homeworld style of ship classes (mostly), strike craft being the smallest, then shuttles, then corvettes, light frigates, frigates, heavy frigates, destroyers then cruisers. Back in the day I had heavy cruisers and supercarriers, but those days are long past.

What is DOGA?

Going to the original question, I have estimated that an Earth-sized planet will support 15-20 billion people, especially considering advanced technology in times ahead. In the future we may even be living underwater, so one could reasonably double that number, while still leaving enough water for drinking. Also, advanced civilizations would likely have "residential" planets and "industrial" planets. But anyways, this means that civilizations would have populations so large that the military would subsequently also be larger. Therefore, it is impractical to include fighters in your fleet count, as it would inevitably lead to confusion, since fighters would outnumber frigates and larger ships by (roughly) 1000+:1.

Just my idea.

[Jubaal]

Could a Bernal sphere work as a generation ship?

[SquareDisc City]

DOGA is a program you can use to make 3D art of spacecraft.

As far as how many people can be on a planet, well 20 billion might be reasonable if you expect it to be self-sufficient. With extensive imports it could go much higher. Coruscant's 1 trillion is actually modest from a physical space point of view - the planet is depicted with giant skyscrapers but you could achieve that population by covering the planet in suburban neighbourhoods. (Though other scientific issues with a trillion-person planet have been noted).

Of course, how many people a planet can have is one thing. How many people per planet your nation has is quite another. I'd say think about what kind of technological and social aspects there would be. A growing population will be accommodated by a combination of densifying and expanding, and the balance between them is something you have to decide. For my part, I've had the UPT lean strongly towards densifying, but I've never really established a proper justification for that, it's something I should do.

[Vocenae]

What is DOGA?

DOGA is a older computer graphics modelling program from the 90s. If you've ever played the video game SPORE, it's a lot like the ship modelling section of that particular game only with so much more freedom. You can find a link to download it in the OP of this thread, in Resources and Exterior Programs.

While simplistic looking and by admission, pretty old, DOGA is easy to pick up but pretty hard to master, and if you're interested in trying it out, take a look at Sunset's Tutorial.

And, if you're interested in finished examples of what you can do with DOGA, you can check out some further examples on My DeviantArt Gallery and Sunset's DeviantArt Gallery.

[Sunset]

Could a Bernal sphere work as a generation ship?

Absolutely. It would likely have to be modified to deal with the higher radiation levels of deep space as opposed to planetary orbit where it is (somewhat) protected by the planet's existing magnetosphere, but that's more technical detail when the base answer is 'yes'. If you want some really good examples of Bernal Spheres that are armored/proofed for deep space, I'd suggest checking out either the in-game play or some screenshots from Elite: Dangerous, which uses that type of orbital as its mid-level station. Fitted with an EM drive or other high-efficiency propulsion system, it would make a very livable generation ship.

[Jubaal]

Could a Bernal sphere work as a generation ship?

Absolutely. It would likely have to be modified to deal with the higher radiation levels of deep space as opposed to planetary orbit where it is (somewhat) protected by the planet's existing magnetosphere, but that's more technical detail when the base answer is 'yes'. If you want some really good examples of Bernal Spheres that are armored/proofed for deep space, I'd suggest checking out either the in-game play or some screenshots from Elite: Dangerous, which uses that type of orbital as its mid-level station. Fitted with an EM drive or other high-efficiency propulsion system, it would make a very livable generation ship.

Is it the same way for a Stanford torus too?

[Maljaratas]

Could a Bernal sphere work as a generation ship?

What is that?
Or that Stanford Torus you just mentioned?

[Jubaal]

Could a Bernal sphere work as a generation ship?

What is that?
Or that Stanford Torus you just mentioned?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_torus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal_sphere

[Lubyak]

I don't really count fighters in the same sense (largely because I, like many other FT players, don't specify how many ships I have in my navy, but since I design my own ships using DOGA, I do generally try to have a number of strike craft figured out because part of designing a ship and making it look good (especially in a program like DOGA) is to take into account internal space. When I used supercarriers way way way back in the day, I had about three hundred fighters per main hangar, now it's drastically reduced. As of right now the only capital ship I have any 'hard numbers' for is one of my frigates, which can carry twenty fighters, sixteen in launch configuration with four additional in 'storage'.

I suppose the case could be made for also bolting drones across the entire surface of a starship and then releasing them once you engage in battle and thus make all your starships into carrier types, but I feel that would break my aesthetic.

Corvettes, for me, are not fighter craft but 'super light' capital ships. Have the size of my smallest frigates, quick, but lightly armed and armored, generally about a crew of twentyish. I follow the Homeworld style of ship classes (mostly), strike craft being the smallest, then shuttles, then corvettes, light frigates, frigates, heavy frigates, destroyers then cruisers. Back in the day I had heavy cruisers and supercarriers, but those days are long past.

What is DOGA?

Going to the original question, I have estimated that an Earth-sized planet will support 15-20 billion people, especially considering advanced technology in times ahead. In the future we may even be living underwater, so one could reasonably double that number, while still leaving enough water for drinking. Also, advanced civilizations would likely have "residential" planets and "industrial" planets. But anyways, this means that civilizations would have populations so large that the military would subsequently also be larger. Therefore, it is impractical to include fighters in your fleet count, as it would inevitably lead to confusion, since fighters would outnumber frigates and larger ships by (roughly) 1000+:1.

Just my idea.

You're making a lot of assumptions there. Assumptions that may not be true for everyone.

For example, just because a single earth like planet could hold ~30-40 billion in your expectation doesn't mean that every world would be filled to Coruscant like capacity. It's just as likely that most worlds would have populations of a few hundred million to a billion or so, with world boasting populations in the double digit billions being exceptionally rare. That's how I do it at least.

Similarly, unless your FTL cost is so low and speed fast enough to make interplanetary commuting feasible or automation has progressed to the point that a factory can make things with no organic supervision I can't imagine there being residential and industrial planets. Again, to use myself as an example, I imagine inter-system travel as akin to early 20th century ocean travel. Common, affordable to most (even if accommodations are shit) but far from something you would do just to commute to your job. Similarly, this ties back to the previous thing: if the population of your average world is only a couple billion at most, why on earth would you go through the trouble of building your factories on another planet, if you could just put them elsewhere on the planet?

I could go on, but my point is that you're making lots of assumptions about tech and assuming they apply universally. One of the key things about FT is that everyone's tech is valid and canon, and the only limitation is whether others will RP with you.

Now, if you do it this way, there's nothing wrong with that, but I just want to caution you against assuming that all of the things you talked about are going to apply to everyone, because--most likely--they won't.

Could a Bernal sphere work as a generation ship?

As with almost all "Can I use [X]?" questions in FT, the answer is 'Sure if you want, just don't be a dick with it'. I'm approaching this question from a purely FT RP perspective, and offer no thought as to the hard FT answer.

[Vocenae]

Could a Bernal sphere work as a generation ship?

What is that?
Or that Stanford Torus you just mentioned?

Bernal Sphere though I personally think it looks like a tube. Basically a micro O'Neill Cylinder.

Stanford Torus. Otherwise known as the might space starfish. Also if you've ever seen the Neil Blomkamp's (District 9 director) film Elysium, then that would be a example of it 'in action'.

[Maljaratas]

What is that?
Or that Stanford Torus you just mentioned?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_torus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernal_sphere

I thank thee.
Both of those seem to be rather interesting things to think about.

[Northwest Slobovia]

Could a Bernal sphere work as a generation ship?

Sure. I use them as city-ships/star-cities for one of my FT nations. They have FTL engines, though.

[SquareDisc City]

One more thing regarding planet capacity - there's a couple orders of magnitude variation in size. The "default" seems to be something Earthlike, whereas for example the surface area of Mercury is just 0.15 Earths and Pluto 0.035 Earths. Conversely a somewhat larger planet could have 5 or 10 Earths of area and yet with a suitable composition might not have much stronger gravity.

As for generation ships, I'd say recognise that they are probably obsolete in NSFT. We have FTL travel, it's kind of a requirement for a nation to call itself FT. The idea of a generation ship that set out before FTL was invented and then reaches the destination to find it long-since colonised is common, but the niche for new generation ships once a civilization has FTL is rather narrow.

That said, nothing stopping you, and anyway the same ideas work for space stations in fixed orbits. Plenty of shapes will work, that's largely an aesthetic choice. You've got three approaches to artificial gravity: centrifugal spinning, handwavium gravity generators, or don't bother. (The fourth, constant acceleration, would probably get you to another star system too quickly for a generation ship.) More important I think is to get a good sense of the scale and describe the interior environment. Is it like a giant cruise liner inside, all decks and corridors and rooms. Or is it like an inside-out planet with open space, mountains and lakes, green fields. Or something in between, or something totally different. And if the ship or station has been around for any decent length of time, it probably has its own internal politics and culture.

EDIT PS: You're probably thinking, wait, if a generation ship doesn't have artificial gravity then won't everyone's bones and muscles atrophy and stuff? And that would be true, and usually people think of the physical solution to that problem - provide gravity. The same applies for radiation hazards, people think of shielding. But there's an alternative solution to both problems and many others with space travel: the medical solution. If you suppose that your nation made effective drugs to counter the effects of zero-gravity and deal with radiation DNA damage and so on and so forth, then you can quite happily have a lightly-shielded zero-gravity generation ship or space station if you like.

[Hydraic Empire]

Okay, I checked out that DOGA site, and I found that the download site, www.simtel.net, has been taken down. Is there anywheres else I might find this? Thanks.

[Kyrusia]

Okay, I checked out that DOGA site, and I found that the download site, http://www.simtel.net, has been taken down. Is there anywheres else I might find this? Thanks.

This comes courtesy of Reppy: Doga complete install + custom parts.

I'll place it in the OP.

[Hydraic Empire]

Okay, I checked out that DOGA site, and I found that the download site, http://www.simtel.net, has been taken down. Is there anywheres else I might find this? Thanks.

This comes courtesy of Reppy: Doga complete install + custom parts.

I'll place it in the OP.

Thank you.

[Telros]

So, I had a question for the community's minds to assist with, if they care to. My avians are a race that lives longer lives than most but are also not as fruitful in reproduction as most races. This is a problem for colonizing and for conflicts. So I was thinking that they turn to supporting with robotic support more than usual. Drones, and such are used, but in addition combat models are introduced to provide a kick to frontline units, and to serve as the ones to draw fire and engage the enemy while the rest doing the maneuvering and striking. If all goes well, they only lose the support units, which can be replaced/repaired. I do want to keep it manageable and not have characterless drone armies, but I can't think of any real alternatives other than perhaps auxiliaries. Those are kinda done by a lot of people, and are hard to get without a conquest spree.