A Lost Age [PT/FanT World] (Open)

[IshCong]

Is that a common ratio for your troops to have, 3,000 archers mounted on 200 Oliphaunts? Because that would work out to about 15 archers on each Oliphaunt, but if one looks at your overall force declaration, if you were to put 15 archers on each of your 5,000 Oliphaunts, you'd have a total of 75,000 archers. That's 10,000 more archers than you claim in your force declaration, without even considering foot archers, so I'm guessing that's not what you had in mind originally? =T
If one were to put 13 archers on each one of your 5,000 Oliphaunts, that would equal the 65,000 archers in your overall force declaration, but only if you don't use any foot archers...

Also, and I just realized this, you have claimed 5,000 Oliphaunts. I had originally thought that either those 200-700 were basically all the Oliphaunts you had, and/or that 200-700 figures accounted for the soldiers riding them. Even then, 200-700 Oliphaunts seemed kinda excessive to me, but not worth making a big deal out of. But 5,000? That seems, well, a bit much. It's not like even war elephants were very common IRL, and Oliphaunts would seem likely to be even less common than war elephants to me.
And then numbers of the beasts aside, the sheer logistical strain of supporting that many Oliphaunts, with the amount they must consume, must be horrendous. I could see that sort of mass of Oliphaunts consuming so much as to devastate local wildlife, especially if there are yet more Oliphaunts in the wild in your lands.

Like, dude i figured that out awhile ago. I only have 200 now. I even said that it is illogical to have that many.

So, just to be clear, you now only have 200 Oliphaunts, and they're all with Argban and Bithius, right?
I was just confused, because you had left the 5,000 figure on your overall force declaration.

[Ballycolumbia]

@Shie Sorry for the delay in setting up the island, but I'm slightly busy lately and slowly making my way through the thread, absorbing all the info, in case I need it later.

[Great Houses of Xie]

No worries. The better informed, the better the quality of the post. I still have to deal with a number of issues with Angle's thread, so there's no rush.

[Great Houses of Xie]

Angle claims that his two armies, Bithius, from the north, and Argban, from the south, will have linked up ahead of Kamiya's army. The two armies, he claims, did not march faster than normal.

Here are his supporting statements:
1) "My troops didn't march that fast as Argban knew his men would tire. The same with Bithius. Until Argban heard word of the enemy army coming down, he quickened his pace.Remember, Minotaurs possess much more stamina and power than humans."

2) "[Kamiya's] army would also be exhausted trying to catch Bithius off-guard. It has been about 30 minutes since they arrived(though i didn't RP this, i will edit it to adjust for time gaps), giving Bithius' men time to rest. Right before battle, like the Mongols did, they eat a special blend of meat and herbs. This gives them a boost of energy.
And my men are marching at normal pace and not charging. We are simply moving forward into better position."

However, I disagree, due to several reasons.
1) The first reason is the map, which shows the greater distances that Bithius and Argban have to march compared to Kamiya:


As I have pointed out, the map clearly shows that Bithius has to march 4x faster than Kamiya while Argban has to march ~1.3x faster to link up ahead of Kamiya's advance. An analysis of the main map and its 1000 mi scale reveals that Bithius has to march ~23 mi, Argban has to march ~8 mi, while Kamiya only has to march ~5 mi.

2) This has to do with the speed at which armies and people can move. One real world figure that might be worth noting is that if Kamiya's army marches at a human pace of about 3 miles per hour (roughly human walking speed), he will cover 5 miles in 1 hour and 40 minutes. That's the amount of time Bithius's army has to reach the field, covering nearly a marathon's distance. In contrast, the current world marathon record for a completely unburdened runner on paved roads is only 2 hr 3 min. His entire army would literally have to beat the world record marathon pace over rough ground with packs and animals. It should also be noted that animals can't really jog like humans, it's a rather human-specific trait. Most animals can only walk or sprint.

If one were to use military forced-march speeds for ruck marches, Kamiya could cover 5 miles in only 1 hr 15 minutes, at 4 mph.
Special forces men, probably the fittest men in any army, can get through a 12-mile march in ~1 hr 40 min, and in the Civil War, an army was considered 'pushing it' if they marched 20 miles in a day in an era after heavy metal armor and before modern body armor.

Trolls are usually equal to minotaurs in endurance and stamina, if not better, so they're probably moving at the same speed when marching normally. Then it comes down to the minotaurs running to keep up and beat the trolls. As pointed out, Bithius will have to sprint the entire ~23 mi in order to do so. Whereby, the stronger will remain in the front, while the weaker will fall behind, stringing out Bithius's army. Argban will have to increase the pace of his march, resulting in more tired troops than Kamiya and potentially stringing his men out, too, though not to the degree of Bithius.

3) With regards to the supposed Mongolian herbs and meat. Unlike the Mongolians, most of the Stetthians are not mounted. They're on foot, running as fast as they can over ~23 mi. Such a blend should not be able to stave off cramping, muscle fatigue, and the sheer wear-and-tear (severely deteriorated state of Stetthians' feet and legs; severe chafing of armor against skin; mounts will be severely chafed by the saddle; these are to name a few) of a marathon such as that.

In summary, putting together our conflicting statements, I believe one of two things should happen:

1) If we run with Angle's statements that neither Bithius nor Argban sped up their march, then Kamiya will have caught Argban, who will not have Bithius's support (according to the map).

2) If we run with Angle's statements that Bithius and Argban managed to link up ahead of Kamiya, not all the Stetthian troops will be present and they will be tired (according to both the map and results of forced marching). In this scenario, there is no way there will be time to rest (let alone 30 minutes), as the Stetthians are still arriving on the battlefield by the time Kamiya shows up.

[Angle Empire]

There, i just frickin' made a huge frickin' overhaul of my frickin' posts. You'll need to edit the terrain map to a mostly flat plain.

[Redemption-America]

Just a few things to add as a third-party observer who isn't invested in the thread:

I'm not sure he should have to edit the terrain to being a flat plain. The map shows that its a mountainous area, so it kind of looks to me like you're arbitrarily changing the terrain to benefit an army built around chariots and elephants, rather than just changing your tactics. Should also note that chariots and elephants aren't super effective in hilly areas, so your claim that your scythed chariots are faster than the enemy cav seems incorrect to me.

Another side note, its generally considered bad form to claim the other side is "wavering" or that your shield-wall is "impenetrable." Not a huge deal, just something to consider for later.

[Angle Empire]

Just a few things to add as a third-party observer who isn't invested in the thread:

I'm not sure he should have to edit the terrain to being a flat plain. The map shows that its a mountainous area, so it kind of looks to me like you're arbitrarily changing the terrain to benefit an army built around chariots and elephants, rather than just changing your tactics. Should also note that chariots and elephants aren't super effective in hilly areas, so your claim that your scythed chariots are faster than the enemy cav seems incorrect to me.

Another side note, its generally considered bad form to claim the other side is "wavering" or that your shield-wall is "impenetrable." Not a huge deal, just something to consider for later.

It's to get the troop's spirits up. Example: "The enemy is wavering! whoo hoo! The men's spirits were lifted at the sight of the enemy falling back."

[Redemption-America]

Just a few things to add as a third-party observer who isn't invested in the thread:

I'm not sure he should have to edit the terrain to being a flat plain. The map shows that its a mountainous area, so it kind of looks to me like you're arbitrarily changing the terrain to benefit an army built around chariots and elephants, rather than just changing your tactics. Should also note that chariots and elephants aren't super effective in hilly areas, so your claim that your scythed chariots are faster than the enemy cav seems incorrect to me.

Another side note, its generally considered bad form to claim the other side is "wavering" or that your shield-wall is "impenetrable." Not a huge deal, just something to consider for later.

It's to get the troop's spirits up. Example: "The enemy is wavering! whoo hoo! The men's spirits were lifted at the sight of the enemy falling back."

Ah. That makes perfect sense, thanks for clarifying.

[Great Houses of Xie]

for the recent round of edits, now you want argban and bithius to link up 50 mi northeast of the mountains.

in doing so, bithius isn't even marching south to help argban. he's marching in the opposite direction relative to argban.

meanwhile, argban still has to march through kamiya in order to link up with bithius, now further away than before. which means that right now, argban's army is facing kamiya's army alone and with no hope of reinforcement.

i will back my above statements with proof shortly.

[Angle Empire]

You could do that, or we could just fudgin' fight already!!!

[IshCong]

You could do that, or we could just fudgin' fight already!!!

It would be very difficult to RP a battle if we do not have a clear idea of the conditions and positions of the armies involved. I want to fight to, but until you and Xie reach some sort of agreement, RPing such a battle would be a debacle since all the people involved have mutually exclusive ideas of what is happening, and where, and such. :/

[Thrashia]

If you're trying to deploy chariots in hilly/mountainous terrain...it's not happening. You can try if you like, but your chariots won't make one mile before every single one is broken down and their riders reduced to foot slogging it. Elephant/Oliphants will be less effected by the terrain, but they will be forced into tight areas with little maneuverability space -- meaning they are more likely to step on friendly troops (and will most definitely step on friendly troops if they are frightened into a panic).

Also, to quote myself from about 25 pages ago...

I expect any army, other than one that claims to match the efficiency of the Roman Legions, to only be able to march 15-18 miles on roads and under 15 miles over wilderness and under 10 miles through hills and mountains. There is also the question of whether or not you have a luggage train, carrying supplies, etc. That would slow you down by at least 2-4 miles, twice that going through mountains. Cavalry by themselves should be able to cover 15 miles standard over wilderness, 20 miles on roads, and under 10 in mountains.

[Great Houses of Xie]

The fewer the edits that attempt to establish some kind of an advantage, the fewer the issues we will have, the faster we can get to the fighting. However.....

I have a few issues with the new edits:

1) Angle suddenly changed it so that both armies, Bithius in the north and Argban in the south, are now trying to march 50 mi. north of "the mountains." I can only assume this means the high mountains marked on the terrain map, as I envision the low mountains to be something like the Appalachians, less like a high mountain peak which the high mountainous region might look like. Here is a map of what I think his intended area of march looks like:


If he includes the low mountains as his mountains, then Angle's Stetthians have to march 3x further north, deep into non-troll territory. Since it doesn't make sense, I stuck with using the high mountainous area as the frame of reference.

According to the map, as it has been for the last number of edits, Kamiya is still in between Bithius and Argban from linking up. He is easily placed to particularly catch Argban, who is attempting to march north.

2) The proximity of Kamiya to Argban leads to this issue. Angle edited to suddenly have two days pass. He seems to be operating under the assumption that Kamiya will not do anything within those two days and allow Bithius and Argban to link up unmolested.

However, that red line that indicates Kamiya's march is an elapsed time of approximately 1 hr and 40 min. At that rate, Kamiya is set to engage Argban at around the 2 hr 30 min to 3 hr mark, which is in no way close to 2 days, when Argban tries to march north past Kamiya.

3) Thus far, two things have been established: Bithius is marching in the opposite direction of Argban and Kamiya can easily catch Argban. This leads to the final issue: now that the battle is engaged, Argban is fighting without any hope of reinforcement by Bithius. Assuming Argban is marching at a normal pace, his troops will not be tired.

I am eager to carry out the battle, as well. Ideally, I would hope that the editing ends here, barring edits to account for Argban's isolation, with Bithius marching north, and we can go ahead with the fun stuff.

EDIT: Also, for clarification, what kind of shields are the Falcon Warriors using? Kite shields, round shields, bucklers, tower shields, etc?

[Angle Empire]

i made an extremely bad calculation. Her is the location of my army. Remember we sgtartged traveling long before your army started, so there would be no confrontation.

[Redemption-America]

If you're trying to deploy chariots in hilly/mountainous terrain...it's not happening. You can try if you like, but your chariots won't make one mile before every single one is broken down and their riders reduced to foot slogging it. Elephant/Oliphants will be less effected by the terrain, but they will be forced into tight areas with little maneuverability space -- meaning they are more likely to step on friendly troops (and will most definitely step on friendly troops if they are frightened into a panic).

Also, to quote myself from about 25 pages ago...

I expect any army, other than one that claims to match the efficiency of the Roman Legions, to only be able to march 15-18 miles on roads and under 15 miles over wilderness and under 10 miles through hills and mountains. There is also the question of whether or not you have a luggage train, carrying supplies, etc. That would slow you down by at least 2-4 miles, twice that going through mountains. Cavalry by themselves should be able to cover 15 miles standard over wilderness, 20 miles on roads, and under 10 in mountains.

Exactly. Which is why I'm not super comfortable with a forced retcon to a flat plain, given the geography map. It shows that its near mountains.

[Great Houses of Xie]

They would have started marching around the same time or Kamiya would have a major head start. Here's why:

1) In the post prior to mine, Angle stated that the Argban's army "had been split up to guard the area and provide more protection for the settlers." As a result, they would have had to reform the army to get ready for a march, which could only have occurred after Argban was informed that a sudden troll army had formed in the mountains.

2) The scout had to have been delayed, since Argban specifically stated that he would avoid the mountains completely, citing that they're too cold (didn't want his men "freezing to death"). He wanted to concentrate his forces on the trolls not in the mountains further north, away from the mountains. Thus, the scout wouldn't have been sent until after Argban "split up to guard the area."

3) "General, the minotaurs have avoided our mountains and are now splitting up. It looks like they want to guard something." Since Kamiya's scout arrived first to report the splitting up, Argban's scout had to spot Kamiya's already gathered troops some time after that, since Argban's scout can only have been sent out after the split.

4) Rather than send people out to gather his troops, Argban then, when notified of the troll army, went to discuss tactics. On the other hand, Kamiya had merely gathered his officers so that he could go out and make his speech, which he did. The speech, plus time it took for him to climb the walls, can only have taken less than 10 minutes. After which, the army then immediately set out, hitting the end point of the red line somewhere around 1 hr 50 min, including the time it took for the speech.

Thus, Kamiya would actually have a vast head start on Argban, since Argban's scout will have only just reported to him and then he started planning rather than re-gathering his troops who were still splitting up, at that point.

As a result of the above points, it would seem as though Kamiya would actually have gotten a major head start. However, in the interests of fairness, I am willing to accept that Argban and Kamiya will have set out about the same time. Which would still result in Argban getting caught alone.

[Angle Empire]

They would have started marching around the same time or Kamiya would have a major head start. Here's why:

1) In the post prior to mine, Angle stated that the Argban's army "had been split up to guard the area and provide more protection for the settlers." As a result, they would have had to reform the army to get ready for a march, which could only have occurred after Argban was informed that a sudden troll army had formed in the mountains.

2) The scout had to have been delayed, since Argban specifically stated that he would avoid the mountains completely, citing that they're too cold (didn't want his men "freezing to death"). He wanted to concentrate his forces on the trolls not in the mountains further north, away from the mountains. Thus, the scout wouldn't have been sent until after Argban "split up to guard the area."

3) "General, the minotaurs have avoided our mountains and are now splitting up. It looks like they want to guard something." Since Kamiya's scout arrived first to report the splitting up, Argban's scout had to spot Kamiya's already gathered troops some time after that, since Argban's scout can only have been sent out after the split.

4) Rather than send people out to gather his troops, Argban then, when notified of the troll army, went to discuss tactics. On the other hand, Kamiya had merely gathered his officers so that he could go out and make his speech, which he did. The speech, plus time it took for him to climb the walls, can only have taken less than 10 minutes. After which, the army then immediately set out, hitting the end point of the red line somewhere around 1 hr 50 min, including the time it took for the speech.

Thus, Kamiya would actually have a vast head start on Argban, since Argban's scout will have only just reported to him and then he started planning rather than re-gathering his troops who were still splitting up, at that point.

As a result of the above points, it would seem as though Kamiya would actually have gotten a major head start. However, in the interests of fairness, I am willing to accept that Argban and Kamiya will have set out about the same time. Which would still result in Argban getting caught alone.

Our messenger arrived when your troops were training, giving us plenty of time to get our armies together. We woudl have set out at the time when Kayiya gathered his officers for "A word." To help with the flow of time in the RP, i would compress my army movement posts into one post to show what time my armies left.

[Great Houses of Xie]

I already pointed out how the messenger will not have been able to do so. So, you do not refute my points?

If so, then I respectfully request that your posts be edited to reflect the given circumstances. In other words, Argban fights alone on the presently given battlefield, having been caught while Bithius takes his time marching.

[Honorisia]

Angle.... He's got you. There is now way around it. Aegean will have to fight without reinforcements from Bithius.

[Angle Empire]

Angle.... He's got you. There is now way around it. Aegean will have to fight without reinforcements from Bithius.

Dandy...

[Angle Empire]

Because the battle will be farther north of the mountains, you will need to change the map. Also, you must take into account our battle currently underway must be deleted. Make a speech to your troops or something like that. Also, we must change the weather pattern because the mountains are too far away for a wind gust that would assist missile units. I would recommend a calm breeze, but nothing that would effect archers.

[IshCong]

Because the battle will be farther north of the mountains, you will need to change the map. Also, you must take into account our battle currently underway must be deleted. Make a speech to your troops or something like that. Also, we must change the weather pattern because the mountains are too far away for a wind gust that would assist missile units. I would recommend a calm breeze, but nothing that would effect archers.

Personally, I've long been a fan of trying to make the weather as 'neutral' as possible unless there is a very good reason to do otherwise. The inherently unpredictable and changeable nature of the weather, coupled with the fact that no one can (usually) claim to control it makes it very abuse prone. Not that I'm saying anyone here would do such a thing, but just something to be aware of.
A gentle breeze sounds about right.

And, of course the current battle must be deleted, seeing as how things have changed since it was typed up, but I'm not entirely sure why the overall map needs changing. I mean, hilly terrain would be pretty common anywhere between mountains and lower grasslands, and it doesn't seem like the battle is taking place all that far north...
Maybe you can explain it to me?

[Great Houses of Xie]

indeed. as ish'cong points out, the battle is taking place only a few more miles to the east and mebbe a mile further north. this still puts the battle well within 10 mi. of the mountains, which means the terrain shouldn't be all that different.

i agree that the weather should remain neutral/calm. i indicated the same in my tgs with angle. that will be among my edits.

i do not see a need for kamiya to make another speech within a couple hours of making his first speech. what would be your reasoning behind such a need?

there are also the unclarified issues regarding the archers and shields. they are of some importance, especially given that the number of archers could potentially be dropped dramatically. the type of shield is always noteworthy, particularly if angle wants to claim an "impenetrable wall."

i await at least an edit of angle's post before my last, since that will determine my edits that will account for the changes to be made.

edit-- whoops, ignore the part about the archers. those are relevant to bithius's army. while not a concern now, it will have to be addressed at some point

[Thrashia]

So where on the big continental map is this battle/series of battles taking place?

[IshCong]

So where on the big continental map is this battle/series of battles taking place?

North of Numer and West of Stetthia. Some maps have been posted up above that give a bit more detail on exactly where. Looks like a few miles north of some "High Mountains" along Numer's northern border.