RP Population Realism Guide

[Clean Conscience]

Check my factbook. I have a small landmass and my nation is an island. I have a population of 2,304,600 and my main exports are rare minerals and food as well as a touch of tourism. My military numbers 26,500. Is this realistic? Also the island is quite tropical.

Sounds good to me...maybe you could actually increase the military slightly (slightly!) if you wanted?

I would, but we're meant to be a pacifist nation so I'm not going too.

[Layarteb]

Sounds good to me...maybe you could actually increase the military slightly (slightly!) if you wanted?

I would, but we're meant to be a pacifist nation so I'm not going too.

Well 1.15% would be "high" for a pacifist nation, even though you don't have many in numbers. The US Military is ~0.85%. So I mean it's give & take you don't have a big population but you do have a relatively "high" [only because you're pacifist, 1.15% is more than acceptable].

Hell, the NYPD is ~32,000 in a city of 8 million so you have a rather large police force really.

[Clean Conscience]

I would, but we're meant to be a pacifist nation so I'm not going too.

Well 1.15% would be "high" for a pacifist nation, even though you don't have many in numbers. The US Military is ~0.85%. So I mean it's give & take you don't have a big population but you do have a relatively "high" [only because you're pacifist, 1.15% is more than acceptable].

Hell, the NYPD is ~32,000 in a city of 8 million so you have a rather large police force really.

Yes, but 12,000 are reserve that leaves 14,500 to actually maintain bases on a not very small island. In comparison, the military is large but they have a large space to cover.

[Layarteb]

Well 1.15% would be "high" for a pacifist nation, even though you don't have many in numbers. The US Military is ~0.85%. So I mean it's give & take you don't have a big population but you do have a relatively "high" [only because you're pacifist, 1.15% is more than acceptable].

Hell, the NYPD is ~32,000 in a city of 8 million so you have a rather large police force really.

Yes, but 12,000 are reserve that leaves 14,500 to actually maintain bases on a not very small island. In comparison, the military is large but they have a large space to cover.

Oh that is very different then. If 14,500 is your active yeah you're fine.

[The Pretend Pub]

So-called "number wank" is just a difference in scale. "Tech-wank" throws the fundamental constraints of reality out the window.

[Ereb Nataan]

Hey my nation is supposed to be in kind of a medieval/fantasy setting, yet with some traces of futuristic technology. It is the remnants of what was once an incredibly ancient, powerful, and advanced warmongering space civilization that had a level of technology that could be compared with magic. They became isolated from the rest of the Empire through some "technical difficulties" with some inter-dimensional technology, and then eventually digressed back to the medieval era.

The landscape is that of a volcanic wasteland with toxic fumes filling the air, so the population is forced to live underground in these vast cave networks (though they have adapted to be able to live on the surface, they have grown to "prefer" the caves) where they raise mushrooms, giant bats and insects, and mine ore. On the surface they are able to grow a special breed of wheat around some hot springs. I'm not very good with making up numbers straight up on the fly, and I have not yet had the education to fully understand what "Gross Domestic Product" and "Per Capita" mean (or it has been just shoved out of my brain by other useless knowledge... I'm a junior in high school if you were curious) so if you can help me with that I would be greatly appreciated

[Helladria]

So-called "number wank" is just a difference in scale. "Tech-wank" throws the fundamental constraints of reality out the window.

I disagree. Tech wank is merely movement along a different axis. Citing Arthur C. Clarke's three laws:

1. When a distinguished but elderly scientist states that something is possible, he is almost certainly right. When he states that something is impossible, he is very probably wrong.
2. The only way of discovering the limits of the possible is to venture a little way past them into the impossible.
3. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Either case of wankery, whether technology or population, is merely an instance of venturing into an absurd end of the scale.

Basically the crux of the matter is this: why is technology held as the sacred cow, such that we have PT, MT, PMT, FT, and sub-categories of each? What's wrong with people agreeing to hold their populations to a limit that is realistic according to the observable world?

In the case of technology, we have MT, but that doesn't keep people from playing at other levels. Nor should the fact that a group of people may play at realistic population levels prohibit you from playing at your preferred population level. What I argue for is that having a broad player base, who RP with "realistic" populations, is preferable to only having a small niche group that does so. Monstrously huge countries can have their peers, and nations more like those in the modern real world can have their peers.

[Helladria]

Hey my nation is supposed to be in kind of a medieval/fantasy setting, yet with some traces of futuristic technology. It is the remnants of what was once an incredibly ancient, powerful, and advanced warmongering space civilization that had a level of technology that could be compared with magic. They became isolated from the rest of the Empire through some "technical difficulties" with some inter-dimensional technology, and then eventually digressed back to the medieval era.

The landscape is that of a volcanic wasteland with toxic fumes filling the air, so the population is forced to live underground in these vast cave networks (though they have adapted to be able to live on the surface, they have grown to "prefer" the caves) where they raise mushrooms, giant bats and insects, and mine ore. On the surface they are able to grow a special breed of wheat around some hot springs. I'm not very good with making up numbers straight up on the fly, and I have not yet had the education to fully understand what "Gross Domestic Product" and "Per Capita" mean (or it has been just shoved out of my brain by other useless knowledge... I'm a junior in high school if you were curious) so if you can help me with that I would be greatly appreciated

Sure, I think I can help with part of it. Unfortunately, I'm not much of a scholar on population levels and economic output of most nations during medieval times.

Since you're a highschool junior, my guess is that you probably haven't had economics yet. This will be a bit simplified, but cover the idea of what they are and what impact they can have. Basically, Gross Domestic Product is the total value of final goods and services produced within the borders of a country during a given period, typically a year. So whittling away the pedagogy, basically it refers to the level of economic output a given country produces. This is important when considering matters like its tax base and industrial base. Its tax base effects the total amount of goods and services the government of a country can buy. Most notable for games like NS, a larger tax base means you can buy more military hardware. The other side is the industrial base. This gets a little bit murkier, but in theory, a higher GDP means a higher industrial productivity, which in turn means a greater amount of productivity that can be diverted to a war effort.

GDP per capita is merely the GDP divided by the nation's population; per capita basically meaning for our purposes "per head". So it's the average GDP produced by each person. It's best not to read too far into that interpretation, as GDP per capita can be and often is skewed by high earning outliers on the one hand and those who don't contribute to the official GDP calculation on the other. GDP per capita is an easily accessed but imperfect stand-in for measuring standard of living in a country or the average contribution of a person to the nation's productivity. There are no hard and fast laws here, but I think it's safe to say there's a good positive correlation between the GDP per capita of a country and it's level of technology. Of course, the necessary disclaimer is that it doesn't have to be that way, as there are significant confounding factors.

Now when it comes to medieval tech, things may not translate particularly well. You'll still have to equip your soldiers with swords and armor, but in general the amount of military hardware you produce will be less critical to the continued functioning of your military, as your logistics and infrastructure will be far simpler. EDIT: Basically at this point in time, manpower is of higher importance relative to industry and hardware than it is today.

In my usual habit, I think I may have overstated my point, but that's basically what I can cover, and a few possible reasons why it could matter. Also for a further or clearer explanation you can check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product .

[Radiatia]

Hey my nation is supposed to be in kind of a medieval/fantasy setting, yet with some traces of futuristic technology. It is the remnants of what was once an incredibly ancient, powerful, and advanced warmongering space civilization that had a level of technology that could be compared with magic. They became isolated from the rest of the Empire through some "technical difficulties" with some inter-dimensional technology, and then eventually digressed back to the medieval era.

The landscape is that of a volcanic wasteland with toxic fumes filling the air, so the population is forced to live underground in these vast cave networks (though they have adapted to be able to live on the surface, they have grown to "prefer" the caves) where they raise mushrooms, giant bats and insects, and mine ore. On the surface they are able to grow a special breed of wheat around some hot springs. I'm not very good with making up numbers straight up on the fly, and I have not yet had the education to fully understand what "Gross Domestic Product" and "Per Capita" mean (or it has been just shoved out of my brain by other useless knowledge... I'm a junior in high school if you were curious) so if you can help me with that I would be greatly appreciated

Hello. I'm currently attempting to type on my phone so sorry if there are spelling mistakes and if it's rather brief.

I too have trouble coming up with numbers, especially GDP, so I use things like this http://tracker.conquestofabsolution.com/ereb_nataan

It can be a good starting point for generating semi realistic numbers, but I warn you that it's based on game stats so may be a little unrealistic.

Thanks

[Estrimbaal]

Thanks this threat was very helpful in tweaking my population to more semi-realistic numbers. When it came to GDP numbers I just reduced the PPP by the same factor as my Population (10 in my case) and used that to calculate GDP per Capita.

[Toopoxia]

I've considered my IC population for some time, but it's always been an uphill struggle, either you end up in conflicts or situations where you're dealing with nations a-hundred times your size and unless you bump yourself up you're gonna get flattened, or you wind up trying to convince people to decrease the size of their pop which is almost impossible to do.

But this thread seems to have shown an undercurrent of like-minded people, maybe I will crack out the 60-80mil Toopoxia of yore, at least it'll allow me to stop having to constantly update my NS-Wiki page (this little fella: ~ has got me through some tough times) Good guide, but I'm loving the sentiment much more.

[Radiatia]

Thanks this threat was very helpful in tweaking my population to more semi-realistic numbers. When it came to GDP numbers I just reduced the PPP by the same factor as my Population (10 in my case) and used that to calculate GDP per Capita.

Absolution Tracker has a feature where it calculates your GDP according to an RP population

I've considered my IC population for some time, but it's always been an uphill struggle, either you end up in conflicts or situations where you're dealing with nations a-hundred times your size and unless you bump yourself up you're gonna get flattened, or you wind up trying to convince people to decrease the size of their pop which is almost impossible to do.

But this thread seems to have shown an undercurrent of like-minded people, maybe I will crack out the 60-80mil Toopoxia of yore, at least it'll allow me to stop having to constantly update my NS-Wiki page (this little fella: ~ has got me through some tough times) Good guide, but I'm loving the sentiment much more.

Thanks. And yes, I'm under no illusions that this will do anything. But it's a rallying cry for those who feel the way I do.

[North Benson]

I tried to make mine a balanced nation, my nation is an Island nation roughly the size of Argentina (maybe a bit larger) with around 110 million people. We are quite rich and well ordered, maybe not to the point of Norway, but neither are we extremely unequal or falling apart like the USA. We have a moderate amount of resources and produce roughly 2/3 our own oil. Our population density is about 110 people per sq KM, so while we work together unlike the ultra individualistic USA, we are also not extremely crowded or more collective minded like, the Germans for instance. Does this sound realistic?

[Radiatia]

I tried to make mine a balanced nation, my nation is an Island nation roughly the size of Argentina (maybe a bit larger) with around 110 million people. We are quite rich and well ordered, maybe not to the point of Norway, but neither are we extremely unequal or falling apart like the USA. We have a moderate amount of resources and produce roughly 2/3 our own oil. Our population density is about 110 people per sq KM, so while we work together unlike the ultra individualistic USA, we are also not extremely crowded or more collective minded like, the Germans for instance. Does this sound realistic?

Sounds good to me

[The United Soviet Socialist Republic]

Mine is based largely off of the USSR, only it is pro religion and socially conservative, it has a little more land than the USSR did but only about 20% of it produces anything useful, the population is 1.2 billion, the military conscription rate is 1% in peace and 2.5 % in war. The economy is good but is not the best ever, the budget is focused on military, although the military is big the military uses cheap and massproduced tanks and guns in combat. We produce 500,000 barrels of oil a day(it is not high, RL saudia arabia makes some 6 million a day).Whadda ya think of that?

[The Seven Realms]

Mine is based largely off of the USSR, only it is pro religion and socially conservative, it has a little more land than the USSR did but only about 20% of it produces anything useful, the population is 1.2 billion, the military conscription rate is 1% in peace and 2.5 % in war. The economy is good but is not the best ever, the budget is focused on military, although the military is big the military uses cheap and massproduced tanks and guns in combat. We produce 500,000 barrels of oil a day(it is not high, RL saudia arabia makes some 6 million a day).Whadda ya think of that?

IIRC, Saudi Arabia is the largest producer of oil in the world.

[Radiatia]

Mine is based largely off of the USSR, only it is pro religion and socially conservative, it has a little more land than the USSR did but only about 20% of it produces anything useful, the population is 1.2 billion, the military conscription rate is 1% in peace and 2.5 % in war. The economy is good but is not the best ever, the budget is focused on military, although the military is big the military uses cheap and massproduced tanks and guns in combat. We produce 500,000 barrels of oil a day(it is not high, RL saudia arabia makes some 6 million a day).Whadda ya think of that?

It's realistic, but I would say that outside of your major cities you will probably have an either starving or massively underdeveloped populace, simply due to your huge population and military-obsessed Soviet style government.

In fact I would say that your economy is going to be quite weak, not just due to population but due to the nature of your economic system. (In real life the people of the USSR were both starved and underdeveloped and they were only around 100 million. Even modern Russia has parts where the people are still living semi-nomadic lifestyles.) So I'd factor that in.

All in all though it looks realistic in my humble opinion. Good work!

[Filopines]

If my NS population is 2.128 billion, should I make it 21.28 million for RPing?

[Layarteb]

If my NS population is 2.128 billion, should I make it 21.28 million for RPing?

You're better off determining the size of your country and then scaling the population to fit that rather than giving yourself a hard figure.

[Radiatia]

If my NS population is 2.128 billion, should I make it 21.28 million for RPing?

You're better off determining the size of your country and then scaling the population to fit that rather than giving yourself a hard figure.

Pretty much this. What sort of country is it? It is an overpopulated hell hole, or an underpopulated hell hole, or a medium run-of-the-mill hellhole.

(Sorry I really like the word "hell hole" today.)

[Filopines]

You're better off determining the size of your country and then scaling the population to fit that rather than giving yourself a hard figure.

Pretty much this. What sort of country is it? It is an overpopulated hell hole, or an underpopulated hell hole, or a medium run-of-the-mill hellhole.

(Sorry I really like the word "hell hole" today.)

Size: Turkey
Density: Somewhere between underpopulated and medium. (closer to medium)

[Radiatia]

Pretty much this. What sort of country is it? It is an overpopulated hell hole, or an underpopulated hell hole, or a medium run-of-the-mill hellhole.

(Sorry I really like the word "hell hole" today.)

Size: Turkey
Density: Somewhere between underpopulated and medium. (closer to medium)

I would suggest maybe 30-40 million then.

[Filopines]

I'm making it 35 million. Thanks!

[Radiatia]

My pleasure!

[Euskirribakondara]

Great guide Radiatia, and a good way of writing too
It's a nice way to bring many back to earth.

My country has 222 million, and it has a very high standard of living and a poor military (we're mostly buddhists, so war is pretty much the last one would think of here). The lack of poverty is supported on:
* A large landmass with lots of resources.
* The exploitation of a colony for centuries.
* The fact that we once ruled all our region, and we were made insanely rich, just like UK in the Colonial times.
* A different way of thinking of the people... We're crime-free!

And our largest city is Harrikes, with 22 million people.... A very, very, very large city that subsists thanks to the modern communication network. We're mostly modern-into-future tech.

Do you think it's not too unrealistic?