Heirs of Outremer (PT, OOC; Semi-Open)

[Tripoli]

"Cursed is he who does the work of the Lord with slackness; and cursed is he who keeps back his sword from bloodshed."
Jeremiah 48:10

"Enter upon the road to the Holy Sepulchre; wrest that land from the wicked race, and subject it to yourselves ... accordingly undertake this journey for the remission of your sins, with the assurance of the imperishable glory of the Kingdom of Heaven."
Pope Urban II

An out-of-character discussion thread for the blessed Crusader lands of Outremer. Anyone who wishes to join this storyline should TG me for more information.

Current political map: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120205204047/userlatinkon/images/9/93/NepMap4.png

Ongoing RP IC: None

Setting the Stage: The year is A.D. 1225 in the Levant. First, Second, Third, Fourth, and Fifth Crusades have proved to be extraordinary successes, cementing a new Christian civilization in the East. Byzantium has been destroyed, surviving only through its successors ruling from Trebizond, and the Ayyubids are in chaos following the premature death of Saladin and a line of increasingly weakened successors. It would seem that Western Christendom has achieved its greatest victory, although deep beneath the surface storm clouds are brewing.....and the greatest war for Outremer's very survival is still yet to be fought.

Rules:
-Any issues concerning technology developed after the Medieval era are to be dismissed.

-Players must govern their country sensibly without veering too far from historical accuracy.

-Diplomacy and realistic changes from the actual course of the Crusades ARE allowed.

**THE DATE TODAY IS the 20th of September, 1225**

[Tripoli]

A few questions about the setting to think about --

1) Who is supporting who? What kingdoms are on the side of the de facto monarch, and what are on the side of the pretender?
2) Just who is the King of Jerusalem at present?
3) What is the point of divergence? I think the POD should be Raynald dying at the siege of Kerak, while the city maintaining victory and a rebuke of the Muslim attempts at taking the city. Thus, the wild card (and politically stupid, stupid, stupid) Raynald is removed from the picture while his stepson, Humphrey, who was politically apt, takes the Lordship of Toron and Kerak. Now, the issue is that Raymond of Tripoli really, really didn't like Guy de Lusignan, and as such hoped to ally with Saladin against Guy. This is the big issue as it's more or less what allowed the Kingdom to fall like it did. So I'm looking for any suggestions as how to do it -- The Battle of Hattin is more or less what ended the war, but it might not happen as only Gerard, Grand-Master of the Templars, is there to egg Raymond on, but at the same time, the Battle of Cresson might have to go differently.

1) We have both established that this RP would take place in 1225. While repercussions from the 1100’s undoubtedly play a key role in setting the stage here, the Tripoli-Jerusalem/Damascus conflict will not actually take place until this time. With all the potential for usurpations, rebellions, coups, disjointed feudal struggles, corruption in the nobility, etc, anything is possible in the meantime and we don’t even have to have a RL POD. Your proposal about Raynald dying at Kerak is intriguing, but my sources indicate that there would still have been plenty of political stupidity caused with or without him. In retrospect, when he was finally executed by Saladin after the Battle of Hattin, his death did not have a significant overall effect on factional struggles in Jerusalem, which continued unabated.

2) Raymond III doesn’t have to ally with Saladin against Guy. We can always come up with no shortage of plausible reasons why he simply didn’t develop this increasing rift with the latter. Humphry, Raynald’s stepson, had a lot to do with it, since he sided with Guy initially. But Raymond didn’t have to care. He could have done so many different things, depending on the sort of person he was. Hattin never has to take place. Cresson never has to take place. None of this has to happen if Saladin died early on in his rule and, after a factional struggle in the Ayyubid Empire, was succeeded by a fictional/RL incompetent relative. Supposing that Saladin dies early on and is succeeded by a group of increasingly idiotic and weak sultans, we can assume the Franks flourish in the meantime. Weak and idiotic sultans tend to be too busy being themselves or starting civil wars in their own country to bother with the Crusaders. Eventually, Outremer starts manipulating Moslem politics by taking sides in Ayyubid affairs, instead of the other way round.

3) Here is how things are turning out in 1225 for Tripoli: Raymond-Roupen has become Prince of Antioch with Bohemond V as Count of Tripoli. Although they initially quarreled over both kingdoms when Bohemond IV of Antioch (and Tripoli) died, they have become grudging allies, dividing his past domain between them. Raymond-Roupen takes the north (Antioch), and Bohemond V the south (Tripoli). Antioch enjoys support from the Armenian kings, while Tripoli’s ruler, who had an RL hatred for the Knights Hospitaller as his predecessor did, is backed by the Templars instead.

4) Jerusalem’s affairs were slightly more complicated. Yolande (Isabella II) was Queen of Jerusalem in 1225; she was married to the King of Germany and Sicily, Frederick II, who had been crowned Holy Roman Emperor in 1220. Despite the fact that Frederick was now official king of Jerusalem, he did not settle into his new role immediately. In 1227, the Papacy actually excommunicated him for failing to report to the Levant as he had promised although he would have if it hadn’t been for an illness. John of Brienne, in the meantime, de-facto ruler of Jerusalem and Isabella’s father (husband of Jerusalem’s previous queen although he was not actually crowned king), was stripped by Frederick of all claims to the throne. In RL, he stayed on in southern Italy to plunder Frederick’s Sicilian kingdom while the Emperor was away on the Sixth Crusade, but I suppose it is possible John could have instead stayed on in Palestine, refusing to give up the throne. Now, what if Frederick died before the Sixth Crusade reached the East? A lesser noble, such as Louis IV of Thuringia, could represent the deceased when his forces arrive, and possibly could be nominated as king. Or it is possible that Frederick survives and Outremer is torn apart by those who support his technically legal claim to the throne, and those who support John of Brienne. The growing rift between locally-born Franks and Europeans from the continent could begin to serve as a major issue at that point.

[Jerusalem and Damascus]

snip

1 - 3) Sounds good, and as for my suggestion of Reynald dying, it's because of the amount of influence Reynald had that made his stupidity particularly damaging. Because Jerusalem is mostly based on Frankish politics, stupidity is indeed inevitable, but Raynald, along with Headmaster Gerard of the Templars, actually goaded Raymond of Tripoli and Guy of Lusignan into doing what they did at the Battle of Hattin. So while the majority of the stupidity in the KoJ was inherent, Raynald was a very dangerous kind of stupid. But you make a good point with divergence -- Raynald wouldn't have to die if Saladin had caught a bad case of dysentery before he could do the flying leap off the diving board into the waterless pool that was attacking the Ayyubid caravan, then what happaned to Raynald isn't as consequential.

4) As for the succession -- I think it might work if Amalric II of Jerusalem and his family didn't die, as there was conjecture that he and his whole family was poisoned. Now, if that happens we actually have a clear line of succession to Amalric III. Given that Amalric was sixty when he died in the OTL, we could have it that he lives another 20 years... Making it 1225. All of a sudden, we have the very young Amalric III about to succeed to the throne. Now, we could have the same marriage between Maria and John of Brienne, who at the time was not yet Emperor-Regent of Constantinople, but could be if Robert of Courtenay died during the conquest of Anatolia. However, feeling that he should be the King of Jerusalem, he makes a pact with Bohemond V of Tripoli, who was married to Alice of Champagne. Now, because of his half-brother Hugh I of Cyprus' death in 1218, Amalric III has inherited Cyprus, which by marriage Bohemond V feels should be his as well because of his marriage to Alice, who was married to Hugh before him. Does that work?

[Tripoli]

As for the succession -- I think it might work if Amalric II of Jerusalem and his family didn't die, as there was conjecture that he and his whole family was poisoned. Now, if that happens we actually have a clear line of succession to Amalric III. Given that Amalric was sixty when he died in the OTL, we could have it that he lives another 20 years... Making it 1225. All of a sudden, we have the very young Amalric III about to succeed to the throne. Now, we could have the same marriage between Maria and John of Brienne, who at the time was not yet Emperor-Regent of Constantinople, but could be if Robert of Courtenay died during the conquest of Anatolia. However, feeling that he should be the King of Jerusalem, he makes a pact with Bohemond V of Tripoli, who was married to Alice of Champagne. Now, because of his half-brother Hugh I of Cyprus' death in 1218, Amalric III has inherited Cyprus, which by marriage Bohemond V feels should be his as well because of his marriage to Alice, who was married to Hugh before him. Does that work?

Beautifully, and it gives us much more leeway to work with the storyline. Robert can die in Anatolia once his purposes have been served to help set the stage, making John Emperor-Regent of Constantinople. This would create a strong quadruple alliance between Tripoli, the Templars, the Latin Empire, and the Kingdom of Cilicia against Amalric III. Lesser allies of John would include the Balkan Latin states, much of the Anatolian Latin states, and to some extent the Venetians as well.

Jerusalem can probably influence a few of the lesser lords in Anatolia, the Hospitallers, and, if the cards are played right, manipulate Edessa, the Turkish sultanates, Trebizond, Georgia, and Bulgaria into siding against Tripoli's alliance.

[Jerusalem and Damascus]

Awesome. Want me to get the Bulgaria player in here?

[Tripoli]

Awesome. Want me to get the Bulgaria player in here?

As soon as possible.

[Jerusalem and Damascus]

Awesome. Want me to get the Bulgaria player in here?

As soon as possible.

Just messaging him at the moment.

[Jerusalem and Damascus]

Alright, he'll be confirming whether he can or not tonight, most likely. At the moment, should we get started?

[Tripoli]

Alright, he'll be confirming whether he can or not tonight, most likely. At the moment, should we get started?

First, a question. I hope this can turn out to be a character-based RP, so I'll be writing from the viewpoint of Bohemond V, and lesser characters as the situation demands.

Will you be doing the same?

[Jerusalem and Damascus]

Alright, he'll be confirming whether he can or not tonight, most likely. At the moment, should we get started?

First, a question. I hope this can turn out to be a character-based RP, so I'll be writing from the viewpoint of Bohemond V, and lesser characters as the situation demands.

Will you be doing the same?

I...

That's really weird as I was going to ask you to exact same thing.

I think it's essential to the nature of the story.

So yes, of course.

[Tripoli]

Great minds think alike, I suppose. Now, where should the storyline start?

Obviously, this war will be fought in the Balkans, Anatolia, Syria, and Palestine. There are endless possibilities for where it could begin. Jerusalem is the pretext for the conflict, so should we open up with a youthful Almaric III's coronation?

[Jerusalem and Damascus]

Yes, that sounds good. Especially if that's when he's issued Cyprus.

EDIT: Just a note, Amalric is not a bloodhound in any form, at least at the start. He really doesn't want this war in the slightest, so you will have to be a little aggressive about it, especially as Amalric has plans for ushering in peace.

[Tripoli]

Has the Bulgarian player given his approval?

If not, the IC's ready at any time.

[Jerusalem and Damascus]

Unfortunately, stuff came up and I'm unable to contact him at the moment. I can handle things, if we don't find anyone else, though.