Lost Age OCC Discussion Thread [Former Ceaden Thread]

[Numer]

How about this?

Kaledorian Golem
Description: (insert lore here)
EQU: Iron Plating (+6, -20 SPE) or Steel Plating (+8, -20 SPE)
SPE: 80 miles a day
STR: 10 (Iron) or 12 (Steel). Also, +2 STR when in the presence of a mage (in that case STR 12 for a Iron one add STR 14 for a Steel one).
VAL: 1600
PAY: 800
Resources Required: 10 Stone, 6 Iron or 6 Steel

It's very strong, it's got a sweet bonus ability, it's not that expensive, and, most importantly, it follows the original game rules (That PAY is half of VAL).

[Tavok]

Sounds fair, so either skipping it, or something along the lines of:

A Golem must be given orders by a Mage.
The Mage can order the Golem on some extended tasks (even: Follow the orders of this guy to the best of your abilities) for up to 24 hours but afterwards the Golem becomes inactive. It does nothing, not even defending itself.
A Mage can control only a single Golem at a time. Assuming control of another Golem takes a Ritual requiring more then 24 hours.

This would make the Golem a rather really expensive but really powerful * piece of equipment for Mages only, however, that can break in battle. I do think that is an even greater flavor and now I imagine Rabbi Loew of Prague as a kick-ass divine caster.

*: Edit, and when I say powerful I mean: "But the caster has at least an upkeep of 200 credits and for that you can hire 2 guys wielding 27 Oil Wistval Fire-Bomb. And while these guys are defense only due to their abysmal speed, their total Str of 2*19 is even higher then that of even a steel plated Golem. And usually you will find 2*27 oil more affordable, too."
So it's not really a game breaker, probably.

Yeah but you have to be reasonable with Wistval Fire-bombs, they're not intended to be rampantly abused. Though there's no set limit to Wistval Firebombs, having one dude carrying around 5 of them (+5STR, -25SPE) is gonna raise some eyebrows. Also, it's standard practice to raise the pay of soldiers somewhat proportionally to their STR. Otherwise we'd see elite warriors getting payed the same as peasants.

[Aelosia]

Sounds fair, so either skipping it, or something along the lines of:

A Golem must be given orders by a Mage.
The Mage can order the Golem on some extended tasks (even: Follow the orders of this guy to the best of your abilities) for up to 24 hours but afterwards the Golem becomes inactive. It does nothing, not even defending itself.
A Mage can control only a single Golem at a time. Assuming control of another Golem takes a Ritual requiring more then 24 hours.

This would make the Golem a rather really expensive but really powerful * piece of equipment for Mages only, however, that can break in battle. I do think that is an even greater flavor and now I imagine Rabbi Loew of Prague as a kick-ass divine caster.

*: Edit, and when I say powerful I mean: "But the caster has at least an upkeep of 200 credits and for that you can hire 2 guys wielding 27 Oil Wistval Fire-Bomb. And while these guys are defense only due to their abysmal speed, their total Str of 2*19 is even higher then that of even a steel plated Golem. And usually you will find 2*27 oil more affordable, too."
So it's not really a game breaker, probably.

OK guys, you have me for a few moments now. I have been sick and on leave, stupid spring. Still sick, but I can hang a bit. More on the weekend.

Th problem with the PAY dynamics is that the PAY thing is what keeps the militaries mainly on check. Having to maintain a rather high cost military (mine as an example, but there are others around) reduces the amount of credits you can stack year after year. I think it is one of the best things in Ceaden's number crunching. Also, that is why I opposed that we had to pay the increased speed (SPE) of units by paying VAL only, but Ceaden ruled otherwise back in the day. However, let's imagine more into the golem thing. It is a good question raised about the rules, and I'll have to agree around with Tuthina here to find a final ruling.

If the golem is a unit, per se, then you need to pay its complete PAY according to its stats. Even if it is an inanimate object, ships are inanimate objects and even then you need to maintain a high PAY for all naval units. However, let's imagine the golem is a siege weapon. As a ballista. It would need a crew, of course. (One pilot and one mage, for instance), but then again it would just "boost" the crew's stats instead of anything else. In that case, you could skip PAY for the golem all together, and only pay its VAL and the resources it costs (although NOT for the crew, you would have to keep maintaining the PAY of the crews). That is something I did with my ships and my siege. I made it into weapons that cost VAL and resources, but inside the game mechanics is just an oversized weapon wielded by the crew. That's one exit you have there. Take into account that if the crew is slain, however, your golem goes dormant, as an unmanned ballista would do.

It is up to you which way do you want to focus your golems. If you want them to behave as independent units, then keep its PAY, or otherwise, treat them as "weapons" that are used by a crew. Your choice.

Regarding the commentabout my forces, yes, I said since the beginning that Fariselians forces were supposed to be scarce, never going over 1000 in numbers, but equipped to the best that the rules can offer. I think it is a consistent view with the traditional elven lore, which put elven nations with highly skilled soldiers, but somewhat reduced in numbers. All soldiers are just a base of 1.5 STR, but most of the bonus comes from extremely expensive equipment on them. As you can see, many weapons cost silver, which is a scarce resource in Ceaden, and one that gives you a rather large bonus in credits each year if you stack it. Mounts and naval units are also supposed to be expensive, but consistent with the image of a "NeoVenice" or "NeoByzantium" look that I planned for Farisel. (I am planning more and more of the military, navy and society of Farisel by reading about the Byzantine Empire, although many things will change, of course)

[Kaledoria]

How about this?

Kaledorian Golem
Description: (insert lore here)
EQU: Iron Plating (+6, -20 SPE) or Steel Plating (+8, -20 SPE)
SPE: 80 miles a day
STR: 10 (Iron) or 12 (Steel). Also, +2 STR when in the presence of a mage (in that case STR 12 for a Iron one add STR 14 for a Steel one).
VAL: 1600
PAY: 800
Resources Required: 10 Stone, 6 Iron or 6 Steel

It's very strong, it's got a sweet bonus ability, it's not that expensive, and, most importantly, it follows the original game rules (That PAY is half of VAL).

So, up to 14 Str for 800 Pay ....

Well, look at this example warrior:
Minmaxian Ranger:
Description: The Ranger shoots at enemies from afar and bashs them when they get into melee.
EQU: Steel Mace, Long Bow, Iron Tower Shield, Leather Armor
SPE: 62.5, STR: 11.5, VAL: 200, PAY: 100
Resources Required: 2.5 Steel, 3 Wood, 3 Iron, 1 Oil.

It's a reasonable package, it does not wield 3 warhammers at once, it uses a nice mix of ressources, so you can produce small armies of it and on the long run, you have 11.5 Str for 100 Pay. That can't be the whole army because the Steel part is a bit to high and you might want some Cavalry against people without pikes and Pikeman against Cavalry, so the ratio will be worse overall but to me it sets a baseline and when my Guys are below 1/5th efficiency, that makes me reconsider. After all, I have a resource-strong / credit-weak terrain and as I have seen in the army exposition thread, some credit-strong nations go as high as 1/2 that efficiency. 1/3 is something I should at least aim for, or I'm not fit for competition. (Yeah, yeah, me always casting the blame on someone else... )

Otherwise: What Aelosia said about siege weapons. A Golem is like a ballista, except, it has to be "maned" by one mage. It makes it easy, that you already have a framework there.

[Tavok]

How about this?

Kaledorian Golem
Description: (insert lore here)
EQU: Iron Plating (+6, -20 SPE) or Steel Plating (+8, -20 SPE)
SPE: 80 miles a day
STR: 10 (Iron) or 12 (Steel). Also, +2 STR when in the presence of a mage (in that case STR 12 for a Iron one add STR 14 for a Steel one).
VAL: 1600
PAY: 800
Resources Required: 10 Stone, 6 Iron or 6 Steel

It's very strong, it's got a sweet bonus ability, it's not that expensive, and, most importantly, it follows the original game rules (That PAY is half of VAL).

So, up to 14 Str for 800 Pay ....

Well, look at this example warrior:
Minmaxian Ranger:
Description: The Ranger shoots at enemies from afar and bashs them when they get into melee.
EQU: Steel Mace, Long Bow, Iron Tower Shield, Leather Armor
SPE: 62.5, STR: 11.5, VAL: 200, PAY: 100
Resources Required: 2.5 Steel, 3 Wood, 3 Iron, 1 Oil.

It's a reasonable package, it does not wield 3 warhammers at once, it uses a nice mix of ressources, so you can produce small armies of it and on the long run, you have 11.5 Str for 100 Pay. That can't be the whole army because the Steel part is a bit to high and you might want some Cavalry against people without pikes and Pikeman against Cavalry, so the ratio will be worse overall but to me it sets a baseline and when my Guys are below 1/5th efficiency, that makes me reconsider. After all, I have a resource-strong / credit-weak terrain and as I have seen in the army exposition thread, some credit-strong nations go as high as 1/2 that efficiency. 1/3 is something I should at least aim for, or I'm not fit for competition. (Yeah, yeah, me always casting the blame on someone else... )

Otherwise: What Aelosia said about siege weapons. A Golem is like a ballista, except, it has to be "maned" by one mage. It makes it easy, that you already have a framework there.

Whose soldier is that?! Pretty overpowered for its price IMO. I hope you're not planning on basing your army off of that example...

As for the Golem Numer proposed, it's way under-powered for its price. Even at half that price it'd be a stretch. In general, I try to keep to a baseline of 100 pay per 5 STR. So my 9.5 Tav Warrior gets 200, my Glaivemen (7.25) get 150, and my standard units, all below or at 5, get 100. And having looked through the forces of other nations, mostly the currently-active ones, I've found that that rule of thumb tends to be more-or-less generally accepted.

[Kaledoria]

No no, I'm Kaledoria, that Soldier up there is from Minmaxia. I just gave it as an example of what is currently possible (and reasonable from an in-world point of view. As compared to a guy carrying Fire bombs for +18 Str (the most you can carry without a mount or becoming stationary)).

As I wrote, the impression I had was, that about half that ratio (would be 5.75 for 100) is generally accepted. 5 is not to far off, I did not really calculate this. Most of my ideas are currently a bit behind that, so I'm thinking about what to do before submitting my army. The Golem was one idea.

Progress update: I programmed a name generator for my nation. At the petty population of 5000 (square miles /4 is still the current rules?), I think I can generate ALL the names.

[Tuthina]

No no, I'm Kaledoria, that Soldier up there is from Minmaxia. I just gave it as an example of what is currently possible (and reasonable from an in-world point of view. As compared to a guy carrying Fire bombs for +18 Str (the most you can carry without a mount or becoming stationary)).

As I wrote, the impression I had was, that about half that ratio (would be 5.75 for 100) is generally accepted. 5 is not to far off, I did not really calculate this. Most of my ideas are currently a bit behind that, so I'm thinking about what to do before submitting my army. The Golem was one idea.

Progress update: I programmed a name generator for my nation. At the petty population of 5000 (square miles /4 is still the current rules?), I think I can generate ALL the names.

Yes. To be fair, my soldiers are probably the most overpowered individually and consistently.

[Aelosia]

How about this?

Kaledorian Golem
Description: (insert lore here)
EQU: Iron Plating (+6, -20 SPE) or Steel Plating (+8, -20 SPE)
SPE: 80 miles a day
STR: 10 (Iron) or 12 (Steel). Also, +2 STR when in the presence of a mage (in that case STR 12 for a Iron one add STR 14 for a Steel one).
VAL: 1600
PAY: 800
Resources Required: 10 Stone, 6 Iron or 6 Steel

It's very strong, it's got a sweet bonus ability, it's not that expensive, and, most importantly, it follows the original game rules (That PAY is half of VAL).

So, up to 14 Str for 800 Pay ....

Well, look at this example warrior:
Minmaxian Ranger:
Description: The Ranger shoots at enemies from afar and bashs them when they get into melee.
EQU: Steel Mace, Long Bow, Iron Tower Shield, Leather Armor
SPE: 62.5, STR: 11.5, VAL: 200, PAY: 100
Resources Required: 2.5 Steel, 3 Wood, 3 Iron, 1 Oil.

It's a reasonable package, it does not wield 3 warhammers at once, it uses a nice mix of ressources, so you can produce small armies of it and on the long run, you have 11.5 Str for 100 Pay. That can't be the whole army because the Steel part is a bit to high and you might want some Cavalry against people without pikes and Pikeman against Cavalry, so the ratio will be worse overall but to me it sets a baseline and when my Guys are below 1/5th efficiency, that makes me reconsider. After all, I have a resource-strong / credit-weak terrain and as I have seen in the army exposition thread, some credit-strong nations go as high as 1/2 that efficiency. 1/3 is something I should at least aim for, or I'm not fit for competition. (Yeah, yeah, me always casting the blame on someone else... )

Otherwise: What Aelosia said about siege weapons. A Golem is like a ballista, except, it has to be "maned" by one mage. It makes it easy, that you already have a framework there.

Same with your 3manned chariot.

[Ty-Ralyain]

Ceaden Country Name: The Ty'Ralyain Clans
Demonym: Ty'Ralyain
Race: Ty'Ralyain
Languages: Ralya[Various Dialects as each clan has their own particular form] and common.
Religion: The Majority of Clans are secular however specific cases, such as the Hydous, follow a fertility god Ba'phuamet.
Head of State: Various
Seat of Power: Clans have different forms.
RL Fluency in English: Native, but I think its rather lacking.
Example of previous RP: Relatively new so only one at the moment. Still ongoing as well.
viewtopic.php?f=5&t=178807
RL Age: 23
Estimated Population: 2.1 Million
Where you wish to place your land plot: Along the Coast south of Ever-Night [Alternatives] 1) South of Arcerion near the lake. 2) The Southeastern peninsula on the island with Hjaarlmarch. 3) Island Chain north of Farisel.
# of Stone: 1250
# of Iron: 2000
# of Steel: 0
# of Carbon: 400
# of Wood: 16000
# of Gold: 150
# of Silver: 200
# of Oils: 3000
# of Earth Sweat: 400

Why you wish to join: I would like to join because I love more medieval roleplays. I have never really had one for modern ones simply future and past. Anyways, a community that is set and rigid that follows itself seems like a perfect place to do so. Not only that but I think it would be interesting to have Ty'Ralyains in the past.

If there's something I missed please let me know.

[Numer]

Alright I think the best way to resolve this is to go back to the rules , it literally cancels out all arguments over upkeep and units. 100 credits in PAY = .5 STR. VAL is always twice PAY. If you want a high STR unit with cheap upkeep, equip it with weapons and armor.

Also, for the new application, there's barely 2 million people in the whole world so far. You have to use the map and key to figure out your population; it's not chosen.

[Ty-Ralyain]

Oh whoopsie. Must have missed it.

Alright so the 20,000 means I have 5,000 people, aye?

[Numer]

Oh whoopsie. Must have missed it.

Alright so the 20,000 means I have 5,000 people, aye?

Exactly . Don't worry, I'm absolutely terrible at math too. Also, if you settle near water, you get a population bonus from the coastline, so take that into consideration when you pick a spot.

[Ty-Ralyain]

Aye, so I have about 400 miles of coastline [I think] and about 100 of river... so 600 total... That's a factor of six to 30,000?
That seems like too much..

[Numer]

Aye, so I have about 400 miles of coastline [I think] and about 100 of river... so 600 total... That's a factor of six to 30,000?
That seems like too much..

Which spot?

[Ty-Ralyain]

Its just south of Ever-Night near the lake there and along the coastline.

[Marzarbul]

Yeah I have a neighbor! Be prepared that I am currently in the process of turning my nation into the first dwarvish state of Ceaden. So anyway please have a gift basket and welcome to the North!

[Lakota]

Hai guuuuyyyyyysssss!!!!!1 Where be posts on Iron thread ?

About the golem, though. It sounds really cool, and ironically, I was thinking about adding the same kind of unit to my army! Oh well. Tiger riders, anyone ?

[Ty-Ralyain]

Yeah I have a neighbor! Be prepared that I am currently in the process of turning my nation into the first dwarvish state of Ceaden. So anyway please have a gift basket and welcome to the North!

Relations might not be too good. I'm basically a nation based off my factbook. While that book is based in a FT environment I just am using the species in a more primitive sense. The Kehn'Belth would be a good representation.

[Tavok]

Alright I think the best way to resolve this is to go back to the rules , it literally cancels out all arguments over upkeep and units. 100 credits in PAY = .5 STR. VAL is always twice PAY. If you want a high STR unit with cheap upkeep, equip it with weapons and armor.

Also, for the new application, there's barely 2 million people in the whole world so far. You have to use the map and key to figure out your population; it's not chosen.

It wasn't a 'rules' argument, it was an more of a 'fairness' argument. If everyone looked at the current rules and then tried to do everything possible to absolutely maximize their army's efficiency, no unit would get paid more than 100 credits. The simple fact is that 100pay for each 0.5 str is not a good enough payoff. Which would mean that everything but the most elite units are inefficient price-wize, causing everyone's armies to be one of elite, minimally paid supersoldiers.

Personally, I think that there should be rules about how much STR a unit can have before you have to ramp up its pay, but until that time, we are better off establishing societal norms.

Tiger riders, anyone ?

Or maybe...

[Kaledoria]

Costal provinces: Yes, this x5 factor (or 6? I think the rules say 5) is really a huge bonus. Is that still current?
Especially since it means that if a coastal nation conquers a mountain region of 5000 people, suddenly 20.000 new people migrate into the area. Or don't they?
Or to say it another way: It was a strange decision of making coastline a factor to population across the whole realm (and moreover one that suddenly bounces from x1 to x6 once you own your 500th mile of coast) instead of making it a fix bonus.


Hehe, since I have a few spare Stones, I though about buying a stone walled settlement. Then I realized: How would that look? A town build for up to 2500 people - I have 5000 people. Say 4000 live in cottages and farms of <= 50 people. The rest is somewhat distributed, too. I think, I'll save the stone for now... Or dot the area with even more fortresses...

[Numer]

Alright I think the best way to resolve this is to go back to the rules , it literally cancels out all arguments over upkeep and units. 100 credits in PAY = .5 STR. VAL is always twice PAY. If you want a high STR unit with cheap upkeep, equip it with weapons and armor.

Also, for the new application, there's barely 2 million people in the whole world so far. You have to use the map and key to figure out your population; it's not chosen.

It wasn't a 'rules' argument, it was an more of a 'fairness' argument. If everyone looked at the current rules and then tried to do everything possible to absolutely maximize their army's efficiency, no unit would get paid more than 100 credits. The simple fact is that 100pay for each 0.5 str is not a good enough payoff. Which would mean that everything but the most elite units are inefficient price-wize, causing everyone's armies to be one of elite, minimally paid supersoldiers.

Personally, I think that there should be rules about how much STR a unit can have before you have to ramp up its pay, but until that time, we are better off establishing societal norms.

Tiger riders, anyone ?

Or maybe...

Well you can argue about fairness all you want, but we've been here actively for months and things have gone smoothly and fairly . I think the system works as it is, and no other applicant has argued the rules, so it seems to work for most people too.

[Tavok]

It wasn't a 'rules' argument, it was an more of a 'fairness' argument. If everyone looked at the current rules and then tried to do everything possible to absolutely maximize their army's efficiency, no unit would get paid more than 100 credits. The simple fact is that 100pay for each 0.5 str is not a good enough payoff. Which would mean that everything but the most elite units are inefficient price-wize, causing everyone's armies to be one of elite, minimally paid supersoldiers.

Personally, I think that there should be rules about how much STR a unit can have before you have to ramp up its pay, but until that time, we are better off establishing societal norms.



Or maybe...

Well you can argue about fairness all you want, but we've been here actively for months and things have gone smoothly and fairly . I think the system works as it is, and no other applicant has argued the rules, so it seems to work for most people too.

Wasn't trying to antagonize or question the rules. I was just acknowledging the already-present trend towards fairness in army pay and humbly proposing that this trend might be set-in-stone and made less ambiguous by a hard-and-fast rule. It was just an idea.

[Tuthina]

Hai guuuuyyyyyysssss!!!!!1 Where be posts on Iron thread ?

About the golem, though. It sounds really cool, and ironically, I was thinking about adding the same kind of unit to my army! Oh well. Tiger riders, anyone ?

I will post once I am better. Currently I am stuck in Writer's Block, Influenza, as well as schoolworks, so yeah.

P.S. In the Saffrian thread, is it daytime or nighttime? I think Tavok's post implied it is nighttime, although it should be day. :/
I also wonder in either case, would we be showing up in the meeting as well?

[Numer]

Well you can argue about fairness all you want, but we've been here actively for months and things have gone smoothly and fairly . I think the system works as it is, and no other applicant has argued the rules, so it seems to work for most people too.

Wasn't trying to antagonize or question the rules. I was just acknowledging the already-present trend towards fairness in army pay and humbly proposing that this trend might be set-in-stone and made less ambiguous by a hard-and-fast rule. It was just an idea.

Oh I know you weren't antagonizing, just saying your opinion, which I'm trying to do to. I'm sorry if I came across as rude or curt when doing so . Anyway another reason that I think we shouldn't make said rule is simply because the more rules there are, the more confusing it gets for people thinking about joining (e.g. they might think its hindering players' abilities and customization). Also, although I definitely see your point about people stacking soldiers with weapons and armor while not paying more that 100, they're still making a trade-off in SPE and resources, which can change warfare dynamics drastically.

[Tavok]

Wasn't trying to antagonize or question the rules. I was just acknowledging the already-present trend towards fairness in army pay and humbly proposing that this trend might be set-in-stone and made less ambiguous by a hard-and-fast rule. It was just an idea.

Oh I know you weren't antagonizing, just saying your opinion, which I'm trying to do to. I'm sorry if I came across as rude or curt when doing so . Anyway another reason that I think we shouldn't make said rule is simply because the more rules there are, the more confusing it gets for people thinking about joining (e.g. they might think its hindering players' abilities and customization). Also, although I definitely see your point about people stacking soldiers with weapons and armor while not paying more that 100, they're still making a trade-off in SPE and resources, which can change warfare dynamics drastically.

I see what you mean, and I don't necessarily think we actually need to regulate it with a rule. But let's get real here, you're not actually getting a good deal by paying your Seraphims 200 rather than 100. You pay them twice as much, and get 0.5 extra STR. So my point is, you're not paying them more for the STR benefit, you're paying them because of the unspoken agreement towards fairness and realism in pay.