Lost Age OCC Discussion Thread [Former Ceaden Thread]

by **Tuthina** » Thu May 10, 2012 1:11 pm

The knights of kings wrote:Hey I reread the rules and according to the rules while there is a rule stating one can only have so much land, there is none that states the limit on an expansion. How much land annexed would be too much. As I said I am planning on recruiting several nations to fight by my side so military strength would not be an issue i would suspect. Payment for these men will be considered from what can be gained in the war. Yet again how much would be acceptable is a 200x200 plot of land too much even for a coalition of forces?

I would suggest against claiming that much of a land once, since it would mean you will have to face of thousands of soldiers and equally-scaled commanders. It might be defeatable, but it would require a LOT of forces with you.

However, I suppose we can get good use for a joint operation RP...

by **The knights of kings** » Thu May 10, 2012 1:17 pm

I may scale back somewhat but exactly I was going to hire several nations to join me. May I also state that with a high population of enemies, if we were to defeat them...think of all the slaves. :twisted:

by **Tuthina** » Thu May 10, 2012 1:20 pm

The knights of kings wrote:I may scale back somewhat but exactly I was going to hire several nations to join me. May I also state that with a high population of enemies, if we were to defeat them...think of all the slaves.

Well, works for me too.

:twisted:

by **Lakota** » Thu May 10, 2012 1:37 pm

The knights of kings wrote:I may scale back somewhat but exactly I was going to hire several nations to join me. May I also state that with a high population of enemies, if we were to defeat them...think of all the slaves.

Lol. As a member of the "Iron" alliance, I would be more than glad to help you (That's actually a cool name. Maybe that could be the name for our alliance)? Think of all the land I could obtain! We could overthrow everyone :twisted:

.

And don't forget to post on the "Iron Sharpens Iron" thread! I'm the kind of guy who freaks out if I don't get to read a new post every two seconds

.

by **The knights of kings** » Thu May 10, 2012 1:57 pm

Well once my conquer of my current annexation is over I shall gather the nations I wish to join me and together we shall head out to our destiny!

by **Tuthina** » Thu May 10, 2012 2:00 pm

The knights of kings wrote:Well once my conquer of my current annexation is over I shall gather the nations I wish to join me and together we shall head out to our destiny!

Will conclude quickly after I get better from my throat and report. (Not a good mix)

by **The knights of kings** » Thu May 10, 2012 2:15 pm

No need to hurry Tuthina. Get better soon!

by **Tavok** » Thu May 10, 2012 2:22 pm

My focus map so far... Don't know how to go about calculating yields though.

Looking at the Force Declaration thread, I've seen an incredibly wide range of strength and value in units. The soldiers of some armies seem ridiculously overpowered as compared to the meek, overpaid soldiers of others. As such, I had no idea whereabouts in this trend my army should go. As it currently stands, I worry that it may be overpowered and just wanted some feedback. It's largely based off the army of Farisel (Aelosia), one of the stronger armies I saw.

Note: The parentheses before the ones showing strength and speed changes indicate what currently-existing weapon the stats and cost of my weapon were based off. I created no actual weapons on my own.

by **Tuthina** » Thu May 10, 2012 3:15 pm

I don't know, they seems fine by me. Then again, my units are probably even more OP than those.

Will calculate land size soon.

P.S. Is it just me, or your land look really like Scandinavia in terms of geography?

by **The knights of kings** » Thu May 10, 2012 3:27 pm

Some of your units are quite strong! Not that its a bad thing though I can only imagine the amount of resources that would be needed to keep a military consisting of elites. Though these are very nice units and well designed i give them a thumbs up.

by **Tavok** » Thu May 10, 2012 4:01 pm

Tuthina wrote:I don't know, they seems fine by me. Then again, my units are probably even more OP than those.

Will calculate land size soon.

P.S. Is it just me, or your land look really like Scandinavia in terms of geography?

Glad to get your approval. Funny though, I didn't notice your units being all that overpowered.

Edit: Oh, now I see. Good to see that I'm not the only one with slightly OP units.

Yeah, it's definitely Scandinavia. You can also spot Japan (just south of Saffriana) and the Caspian Sea (just east of your country). I don't quite know why that was done...

The knights of kings wrote:Some of your units are quite strong! Not that its a bad thing though I can only imagine the amount of resources that would be needed to keep a military consisting of elites. Though these are very nice units and well designed i give them a thumbs up.

The army won't be all from the Professional-class, though my goal is to have most of it be professional. I don't like to throw away the lives of poor "Basics".

by **Numer** » Thu May 10, 2012 4:34 pm

Yeah the trend of Ceaden has been to either have large inexpensive armies but weaker units, or highly trained expensive small armies but super powerful units. Cons and Pros

. At first I thought my units were strong, but now everyones' much better. I think I'll have to hide behind my War Elephants

.

Also, here's my Expansion. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=179232

by **Tavok** » Thu May 10, 2012 5:48 pm

Numer wrote:Yeah the trend of Ceaden has been to either have large inexpensive armies but weaker units, or highly trained expensive small armies but super powerful units. Cons and Pros . At first I thought my units were strong, but now everyones' much better. I think I'll have to hide behind my War Elephants .

Also, here's my Expansion. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=179232

I think your army's not bad at all, even without elephants. Your Seraphim are practically identical to my Tav Warriors, with the same cost and pay, only 5 more speed, and only 0.5 less strength. Your foot-soldiers are quite good as well, especially given their value (7 STR with only 100 upkeep). Those War Elephants are just the cherry on top.

by **Numer** » Thu May 10, 2012 5:53 pm

Tavok wrote:
Numer wrote:Yeah the trend of Ceaden has been to either have large inexpensive armies but weaker units, or highly trained expensive small armies but super powerful units. Cons and Pros . At first I thought my units were strong, but now everyones' much better. I think I'll have to hide behind my War Elephants .

Also, here's my Expansion. viewtopic.php?f=5&t=179232

I think your army's not bad at all, even without elephants. Your Seraphim are practically identical to my Tav Warriors, with the same cost and pay, only 5 more speed, and only 0.5 less strength. Your foot-soldiers are quite good as well, especially given their value (7 STR with only 100 upkeep). Those War Elephants are just the cherry on top.

Thanks

. But I still think your army is better unit-wise. Also I just realized, I believe you are one of the only if not the only democratic republic in Ceaden. Ladies and gentleman, we've found our IC Romans. Take pride, Tavok, take pride

.

by **Tavok** » Thu May 10, 2012 6:04 pm

Numer wrote:
Tavok wrote:I think your army's not bad at all, even without elephants. Your Seraphim are practically identical to my Tav Warriors, with the same cost and pay, only 5 more speed, and only 0.5 less strength. Your foot-soldiers are quite good as well, especially given their value (7 STR with only 100 upkeep). Those War Elephants are just the cherry on top.

Thanks . But I still think your army is better unit-wise. Also I just realized, I believe you are one of the only if not the only democratic republic in Ceaden. Ladies and gentleman, we've found our IC Romans. Take pride, Tavok, take pride .

I think I am actually the only one. Which means I get to be the first too. Sweet. I meant my country to be a very corrupt republic though, verging on plutocracy. Essentially, everyone is equal, but the more money you have the more "equal" you get to be.

Then again, the Roman Republic was pretty damn corrupt itself.

by **Numer** » Thu May 10, 2012 6:11 pm

Tavok wrote:
Numer wrote:
Thanks . But I still think your army is better unit-wise. Also I just realized, I believe you are one of the only if not the only democratic republic in Ceaden. Ladies and gentleman, we've found our IC Romans. Take pride, Tavok, take pride .

I think I am actually the only one. Which means I get to be the first too. Sweet. I meant my country to be a very corrupt republic though, verging on plutocracy. Essentially, everyone is equal, but the more money you have the more "equal" you get to be. Then again, the Roman Republic was pretty damn corrupt itself.

Oh yes, the decline of the Roman Republic and the emergence of the Roman Empire is probably one of my favorite periods in history. Constant civil wars, friends becoming enemies, assassinations left and right. Must of been a pretty awesome and yet extremely damn dangerous time to be alive (if you weren't one of the commoners of course, then it's just dangerous). As for my government, it's literally run by merchant families, with money directly determining succession, social status, and power.

by **Kaledoria** » Thu May 10, 2012 9:47 pm

Hi. I'm still working on my nation. It's pretty bad, although I did see that I can in fact go quite a bit over my tax income in military upkeep with all those gold and silver.

I realized, the Calculator references the wrong fields: Those in the example, not those on the first page, when they address fields by name. Could be because I'm using open office.

Mines however - they are not as great as I thought. They grand a a percentage of the starting value - or in other words: A fix amount, which is pretty minor compared to the great number of resources I get from just sitting on top of my mountains and highlands.
5 Mines: 312,5 Stone, 500 Iron, 100 Coal, 20 Silver, 15 Gold
Terrain: 2450 Stone, 2240 Iron, 720 Coal, 624 Silver, 416 Gold
I guess, mines are nice, if you are a costal/lowland nation with a lack of the above ressources (although due to the high population you even better invest in those PPC increasers, I guess).

I guess I still keep them for the RP purposes but I have to min/max somewhere else, or I'll be rolled over by any decent nation.

So how does this combat mechanic handle ranged/melee combined units?

Edit: I would like approval on the following:

Golem:
Description: A large, humanoid figure made out of stone and animated by magic. It is a priced guardian and warrior: Absolutely loyal, absolutely fearless, never tires, never distracted. Also, it's made from stone and hard to destroy for mere humans.
Equ: Iron Plating (+5 Iron, +3 Str, -5 Spe) or Steel Plating (+5 Steel, +6 Str, -5 Spe)
Spe: 80
Val: 14 Stone, 3 Earth Sweat, 5600 credits
Pay: 25 credits for cleaning and maintainance
Str: 14
Construction: A mage with 1 MAG needs 3 years to build a Golem, 3 mages with 1 MAG each do it in 1 year, as does 1 mage with 3 MAG and 2 cheap workers who need no magic abilities.

Hammer of the Forge (Ogre):
Description: A magic weapon of some religious aspect. Comming from the Kaledorian Chosen of Crom, this weapon rests on the apex of martial, magical and religious power. It is used in smithing as well as smiting enemy heads. It is useable in one hand.
Effects: +3 MAG, +7 STR, -10SPE
Cost: 4x Steel, 1.5x Silver, 10x Earth Sweat
Comment: This is for an Ogre-sized hammer. The magic, thus earth sweat required, is not scales down but to a part the silver is.
A human sized hammer would only require 2 Steel and 1 silver, yet it would also only grand +3.5 STR. That is, if any human cult dared to copy the followers of Crom.

Ogres, priced down:
Description: Large humanoid, brutal, strong, industrious. Ogres usually live in small groups.
EQU: None
SPE: 100 miles a day
VAL: 1120 credits
PAY: 560 credit
STR: 4
Special:
Speed Reduction of armors and weapons -20%
Ogre armor/weapons need 2x ressources, have 2x effect

Reason for the price reduction: The price normal for Elites is no concept for an entire race. Not only is the first 1 STR at a price of 100 credits, every further costs 200, however, payment efficiency is also a matter of (Str from items) / (Str you pay for). Multiple cheap units, where everyone gets a Str Bonus through items costs more ressources up front but quickly pays of, since this investment does not require upkeep. 560 credits for 4 STR and virtually 2 equipment sets and two little special abilities looks like a fair balance between 400 PAY for 4 Str and the ability to use 4 equipment sets at once on the one hand and emulating a Str 4 race with an elite human.

by **Numer** » Fri May 11, 2012 3:21 am

Golem looks awesome, although the VAL needs to be credits. I believe PAY and VAL, although represented by credits, are actually any way you keep your units' maintenence (including the cleaning of machine among them). So you still need to have a PAY and VAL of at least 200 VAL and 100 PAY.

by **Numer** » Fri May 11, 2012 3:26 am

Oh wait, didn't see the 5600 VAL :blush:

lol my bad sorry :lol:

by **Kaledoria** » Fri May 11, 2012 3:39 am

Mechanically speaking, the Golem is specifically meant as a way of "high costs up front, little to no upkeep". Thus only 25 credits upkeep, although, even this could be skipped, I think. Manpower on creation means credits up front are okay, plus some raw materials. Think of it as an equivalent to fortresses, where you pay stone and credits initially and then nothing, or "Stone weapons swinging themselves".
Seriously, if this guy does not stand around 3-4 years, looking threatening, then he did not pay off but I do not know the dynamics of the game yet, so I could be wrong.

by **Tuthina** » Fri May 11, 2012 3:47 am

I suppose it is fine. Although if it turns out to be too powerful, I might ask you to nerf it, but before that, I think it is okay.

by **The knights of kings** » Fri May 11, 2012 3:59 am

Lol I thought that id get higher resources too if i went into the mountains! Now im going to expand to capture some of that nice shore line.

by **Tavok** » Fri May 11, 2012 11:47 am

My problem with the Golem is this: as time goes on and you get more credits and resources, you will eventually be able to build more and more of them. With any regular unit, a particular strip of land can only support a certain number of soldiers before you just don't have the cash intake to sustain the costs of keeping any more. But because of the Golem's lack of any real upkeep, there will never be any problems with sustaining them, allowing you to continue the slow stockpile of Golems indefinitely. So essentially, the longer you stick around in Ceaden, the more broken your armies of Golems will become.

Everyone likes thinking long term, and we'd all like to be able to push the salary costs into the upfront costs. But the potential for abuse in the long-term is just too great IMO. I think anyone that approves of your Golem is basically just hedging their bets that you won't stay for all that long.

by **Tuthina** » Fri May 11, 2012 12:48 pm

Tavok wrote:My problem with the Golem is this: as time goes on and you get more credits and resources, you will eventually be able to build more and more of them. With any regular unit, a particular strip of land can only support a certain number of soldiers before you just don't have the cash intake to sustain the costs of keeping any more. But because of the Golem's lack of any real upkeep, there will never be any problems with sustaining them, allowing you to continue the slow stockpile of Golems indefinitely. So essentially, the longer you stick around in Ceaden, the more broken your armies of Golems will become.

Everyone likes thinking long term, and we'd all like to be able to push the salary costs into the upfront costs. But the potential for abuse in the long-term is just too great IMO. I think anyone that approves of your Golem is basically just hedging their bets that you won't stay for all that long.

That's a fairly good point... admittedly I did not think of that. Perhaps we can put a cap on the numbers of the golems? Maybe the MAG guys who created them are somewhat linked, so the golem require constant support from them?

by **Kaledoria** » Fri May 11, 2012 1:28 pm

Sounds fair, so either skipping it, or something along the lines of:

A Golem must be given orders by a Mage.
The Mage can order the Golem on some extended tasks (even: Follow the orders of this guy to the best of your abilities) for up to 24 hours but afterwards the Golem becomes inactive. It does nothing, not even defending itself.
A Mage can control only a single Golem at a time. Assuming control of another Golem takes a Ritual requiring more then 24 hours.

This would make the Golem a rather really expensive but really powerful * piece of equipment for Mages only, however, that can break in battle. I do think that is an even greater flavor and now I imagine Rabbi Loew of Prague as a kick-ass divine caster.

*: Edit, and when I say powerful I mean: "But the caster has at least an upkeep of 200 credits and for that you can hire 2 guys wielding 27 Oil Wistval Fire-Bomb. And while these guys are defense only due to their abysmal speed, their total Str of 2*19 is even higher then that of even a steel plated Golem. And usually you will find 2*27 oil more affordable, too."
So it's not really a game breaker, probably.

Lost Age OCC Discussion Thread [Former Ceaden Thread]

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