The International Incidents Mentor Program!

[New Azura]

I'm on no pedestal at all I might add, rather I'm confused on how this is a popularity contest; or why you even care? Does a green name tag mean that much to you?

It shouldn't mean anything to anyone, because it's completely arbitrary and grounded solely in acceptance by a small clique of, originally, mod-appointed "helpers" -- not by merit. That said, it clearly is intended to mean something by the administration, because otherwise they wouldn't bother giving them official status. It's intended to make them the "face" of NS RP, and the undemocratic manner in which that has taken place is something that should concern everyone on this board.

No one has replied to my suggestions -- if this won't just go away altogether, I suggest removing official status by getting rid of the coloured title. Since the mentors are not in this for recognition, or on some sort of power trip, I'm sure they won't mind. Furthermore, since we've already come to the conclusion that a green tag doesn't make you a better helper, I'm sure it won't affect the success of this program.

So, Leistung, let me ask you a question. Instead of a tag of some sorts for the NS Account, would you prefer a list in a post that's stickied with the people who wish to volunteer their services as a Mentor?

[Leistung]

It shouldn't mean anything to anyone, because it's completely arbitrary and grounded solely in acceptance by a small clique of, originally, mod-appointed "helpers" -- not by merit. That said, it clearly is intended to mean something by the administration, because otherwise they wouldn't bother giving them official status. It's intended to make them the "face" of NS RP, and the undemocratic manner in which that has taken place is something that should concern everyone on this board.

No one has replied to my suggestions -- if this won't just go away altogether, I suggest removing official status by getting rid of the coloured title. Since the mentors are not in this for recognition, or on some sort of power trip, I'm sure they won't mind. Furthermore, since we've already come to the conclusion that a green tag doesn't make you a better helper, I'm sure it won't affect the success of this program.

So, Leistung, let me ask you a question. Instead of a tag of some sorts for the NS Account, would you prefer a list in a post that's stickied with the people who wish to volunteer their services as a Mentor?

Absolutely yes.

[New Azura]

So, Leistung, let me ask you a question. Instead of a tag of some sorts for the NS Account, would you prefer a list in a post that's stickied with the people who wish to volunteer their services as a Mentor?

Absolutely yes.

How would that be any different from NationStates Trainers, though? I mean, it's theoretically the same concept—players have to go looking for help, and anyone and their brother can offer advice, even if it's incorrect.

[Leistung]

Absolutely yes.

How would that be any different from NationStates Trainers, though? I mean, it's theoretically the same concept—players have to go looking for help, and anyone and their brother can offer advice, even if it's incorrect.

Again, acceptance by Jenrak does not make your advice any more correct. I'm a bit concerned about everyone thinking this is the case -- just because you're more "official" does not make you any more right.

It's worth noting that I do not agree with NST, but if it's NST or this, I prefer the former.

[Anemos Major]

Again, acceptance by Jenrak does not make your advice any more correct. I'm a bit concerned about everyone thinking this is the case -- just because you're more "official" does not make you any more right.

It's worth noting that I do not agree with NST, but if it's NST or this, I prefer the former.

This is very much a work in progress, as has been stated multiple times. And we're taking all the criticism very seriously, from the biggest to the smallest; certainly, we are putting the removal of these tags altogether to debate, and frankly, I personally couldn't care less about them being there or not. As I said, my acceptance was given to a TG asking me if I wanted to help with a new program intending to aid newer RPers, not one based on getting a fancy new title; based on that, I proposed getting rid of the title altogether, and there's been general agreement. Your main point of contention with this program, the colour teal, will disappear, so you can get that crushing worry off your mind.

But I'd just like to ask; where were you? You've come back in a sudden burst of activity, viciously attacking what you perceive to be 'undemocratic mod-tyranny'; what were you doing before then? Where exactly were you; were you making a concerted attempt to help newer RPers? Were you participating in improving the state of the II community in an active manner by volunteering and attempting to help others, offering your services to those who you thought needed them, and suggesting ideas that might help improve things? Take this thread. Have you actually suggested, in any form or manner, a coherent suggestion concerning a possible alternative to an endeavour you've so viciously criticised?

You've been locked away in SMS with the others for half a year now. You've been gone from the NS community, and you've only come back to complain against the 'mod clique' in an empty, pedantic manner, spouting hypocritical ideals of 'democracy' and criticising so-called 'tyranny' when you yourself have locked yourself away on an offsite board created solely because of the elitist view that the NS forums themselves were being 'flooded by newbies' and 'crap', returning only to troll it before buggering off again. Given the opportunity to stay and help, to TG people who though they needed it, to give people suggestions on their RPing, to explain the more difficult technical aspects of NS to people who didn't understand them, all things you of all people could potentially have done very well, you ran off with the others into isolation and exclusion.

It's been a long time. ODECON's dead, the forums have changed, and your words ring hollow when you made your own decision to leave us to rot. Perhaps now that you're back to complain, you'll do us the honour of helping us out where you failed to do so, and to find an alternative to this so-called 'injustice against democracy'. I don't have high hopes, though. And it's not hard to see why.

[Praetonia]

If SMS was founded to get away from anyone on II, it isn't the new people. I hope this isn't sinister - mentor programs, albeit generally ineffective, are nothing new - but interventionist moderation rarely helps a forum. Presumably you agree at least to some extent if you have an "unjustly deleted" signature.

[Anemos Major]

If SMS was founded to get away from anyone on II, it isn't the new people. I hope this isn't sinister - mentor programs, albeit generally ineffective, are nothing new - but interventionist moderation rarely helps a forum. Presumably you agree at least to some extent if you have an "unjustly deleted" signature.

I have an unjustly deleted signature because I don't agree fully with some decisions taken by the Mods. That doesn't mean I consider the intervention of moderation to be unhelpful in every case, and it certainly does not mean that I disagree with an attempt to help people make the most out of these forums by creating a clearly visible and dedicated 'team' drawn from across the board that can be contacted and utilised as newer players see fit. The issue I take here is that the only arguments presented by opponents are the supposed creation of 'class distinction', which is a rather overemotional and incomprehensible view of the issue at hand, mod-tyranny, which is absolute tripe considering the composition of this group (the inclusion of myself and TPF is a rather shining example of that, I believe), and because these critics have, so far, not been able to provide any helpful, coherent suggestions concerning a future for such initiatives aside from destroying it altogether.

[Praetonia]

Historically RP, unlike just about everything else, has not been moderated on this site. Mod-appointed RP mentors somewhat changes this, with the mods deciding who is and isn't a good RP and competent to instruct others. So it is not really a trivial, purely aesthetic issue. Maybe you think this is a good thing, but what makes you believe that the mods will be any better at choosing the best RPers than at choosing which should be banned?

[Johz]

I'm really impressed. I go away for a month, and some really good stuff happens. However, does it really have to be that eyewatering shade of green? A darker shade would work far better on the light coloured backgrounds...

[-Deus-]

Okay okay, I've watched this devolve into a jumble of mess for awhile, so here is my input.

I believe, in general, that arguing over this won't get anything done. This is experimental at best you know, it's only been up for a day or two and already you [Leis, Prae, others] are blasting it to bits without even seeing if it actual helps or not. It's a good idea that before throwing something around like it's fact, to make sure it is absolute fact and nothing else. A claim based on rather iffy assumptions won't get you anything. We have ugly coloured names, so what? It's a name colour, get over it, doesn't change much. The mods want to help RPing a bit by setting up a mentor program? So what, again, just shows the Mods - which, I assure you are people and not robots - want to legit help out on the RP forums and turn it away from one-lining slop and transform it into something at least tolerable.

The mentor program has no power over RPing, all we do is go and make suggestions to have an RP could be just a little bit better. No need arguing over this and that, if it works, if it doesn't, because truthfully nothing has happened yet. Okay? This is my two cents on the matter.

[Cyrupe]

It isn't 'moderating' the Roleplay forums though. It is primarily just us finding newer players who are confused about the mechanics and offering them advice. Nothing different than we had been doing BEFORE we were invited into our new found position, and just like many of you had and still continue doing on a daily basis. We're not saying "Oh, don't do this." or "Don't do that either, you bad person you!" at all. We're simply offering our advice as Roleplayers on how to improve themselves. I take the majority of my help to telegrams, while some threads that have a larger number of people who seem like they're confused about it all I post a general response and attach "Hey, if you want to continue this discussion, telegram me" finale to it.

The majority of the people I've worked with so far have come to ME via telegram, not the other way around. Today alone I've answered questions from four different players, one of whom was an older nation. It's not like the program is exclusively dedicated to helping newer players. Anyone who wants help can get it, and it primarily caters to those who have tried the stickies, have tried looking at other roleplays, but just found themselves not able to fully grasp the concepts we have as de-facto standards here on NationStates as a community. (I still remember the silly "No n00ks before 100 million people rule that some rather aggressively and rudely pointed out to me when I was new).

I largely believe it is due to a small sect of elitism that has culminated itself in NationStates. Those who have worked to get their spot don't want anyone to get in the way of the fact they have that spot in a clique, regardless if they are old or new. As GWO put it, "We just trolled them until they went away or got better." Which, frankly, isn't all that helpful in my eyes. Doing that drives away potentially talented people who simply don't want to be yelled at because they made mistakes. It's that very same elitist behavior that used to troll the new players into submission in a different incarnation because what they used to do is now a bannable/warn-able offense. Now it just seems to be taking anger out on a group which hasn't even been proven good or not yet. Claiming it is 'bad' and will 'moderate a traditionally moderation free community' without even giving the group a chance to prove that is not the case is silly to me.

I'll say this a thousand times, we are not moderating the community. No one has ever made mention that we're even thinking about barging into the community and instantly telling them what they can or cannot do. I've seen people who offer their advice who suggest things in that manner, taking the view of 'It is either my way or you can get out of Dodge' and I fully agree that has absolutely NO place in the community. Simply going "Hey xnameherex, might I suggest x for your y, if you have any issues or questions, just telegram me" isn't that way at all, and is what a lot of people had done before this was even a passing thought in Jenrak's mind.

[Praetonia]

An official title means that anything these people say carries more weight than if someone without the title says it, and that, to take your example, people will more likely TG the person with the title than a person without. There's not really a need to spend 10 paragraphs discussing it, that's just the way it is. So the moderators (I guess in practice Jenrak alone? but maybe not) choose what type of RP and what type of RPer is promulgated. Again, there are perhaps sensible arguments to be made for this, but not ones I would agree with.

[Clamparapa]

Historically RP, unlike just about everything else, has not been moderated on this site. Mod-appointed RP mentors somewhat changes this, with the mods deciding who is and isn't a good RP and competent to instruct others. So it is not really a trivial, purely aesthetic issue. Maybe you think this is a good thing, but what makes you believe that the mods will be any better at choosing the best RPers than at choosing which should be banned?

I think you missed the entire point of this little venture. The idea of Mentors is to actively help people, not force them to change. The people can accept the advice or not, but the mentors will be around to help, not moderate. Please read between the lines next time.

[Sailsia]

I personally think Leistung has articulated my sentiment for the most part. Of course, the thing is, we CAN'T train n00bs by looking for them. We have to wait for them to come to us, or, lead by example. From my 2+ years of observation of NS, the n00bs seem to be more visible than the quality guys. If the trainers REALLY want to help the n00bs, my opinion is that they need to RP themselves more. All this concern with gaining new members has made us forget one thing: we still have over 100 quality RPs NOW. Instead of coming up with good RPs NOW, we're devising a system which will obviously only divide the already shattered community. New members are irrelevant when we are only drawing them into a broken environment. I would even venture to say that we need to have some form of conference between the RP regions, and possibly try to revive the NS World Map so that we can be a cohesive RP world. THEN we can talk about drawing in new members.

[Cyrupe]

It's nothing quite fully written down yet, but I know for a fact a few of the mentors (myself included) are planning to do open training roleplays for whomever wants to jump in to get some hands on experience in a relatively consequence free environment. We'd be there to basically play along with them and critique their work should they (and only they) ask us to. Everything going on right now is much too impersonal. A hands on approach is desperately needed, and I think a few training roleplays that anyone can jump in on would bring us towards that direction.

Edit: The community can't be shattered, because it was never meant to be a whole in the first place. To have one gigantic, consistent storyline on NationStates would be a disaster and will end with one guaranteed outcome: Everyone getting bored because they couldn't do things they way they preferred and leave. North Defese reminded me of that on MSN, and I think that's a very valid point he has.

[Sailsia]

It's nothing quite fully written down yet, but I know for a fact a few of the mentors (myself included) are planning to do open training roleplays for whomever wants to jump in to get some hands on experience in a relatively consequence free environment. We'd be there to basically play along with them and critique their work should they (and only they) ask us to. Everything going on right now is much too impersonal. A hands on approach is desperately needed, and I think a few training roleplays that anyone can jump in on would bring us towards that direction.

Edit: The community can't be shattered, because it was never meant to be a whole in the first place. To have one gigantic, consistent storyline on NationStates would be a disaster and will end with one guaranteed outcome: Everyone getting bored because they couldn't do things they way they preferred and leave. North Defese reminded me of that on MSN, and I think that's a very valid point he has.

Who said I was talking ICly shattered? The OOC community is what counts most, and THAT is what is shattered in so many ways. Just look at this thread in and of its self.

[North Defese]

It's nothing quite fully written down yet, but I know for a fact a few of the mentors (myself included) are planning to do open training roleplays for whomever wants to jump in to get some hands on experience in a relatively consequence free environment. We'd be there to basically play along with them and critique their work should they (and only they) ask us to. Everything going on right now is much too impersonal. A hands on approach is desperately needed, and I think a few training roleplays that anyone can jump in on would bring us towards that direction.

Edit: The community can't be shattered, because it was never meant to be a whole in the first place. To have one gigantic, consistent storyline on NationStates would be a disaster and will end with one guaranteed outcome: Everyone getting bored because they couldn't do things they way they preferred and leave. North Defese reminded me of that on MSN, and I think that's a very valid point he has.

Who said I was talking ICly shattered? The OOC community is what counts most, and THAT is what is shattered in so many ways. Just look at this thread in and of its self.

Trying to fix that would require you change the opinion of a dozen or so people. You can't bring unity in a forum like this, we're too diverse.

[Esternial]

Who said I was talking ICly shattered? The OOC community is what counts most, and THAT is what is shattered in so many ways. Just look at this thread in and of its self.

Trying to fix that would require you change the opinion of a dozen or so people. You can't bring unity in a forum like this, we're too diverse.

The mere thought of such a thing is the wishful thinking of a fool, I say.

Diversity is the thing which makes us unique. Else we would be mere machines.

[Saint Clair Island]

This is not going to work.

NSTrainer programs do not work. Moderated roleplay not only does not work but will kill the community. (and yes, this will effectively create moderated roleplay, since it says "we officially approve of people who roleplay like this.") A combination of both will first drive away the experienced players not part of the mentorclique and then any talented new players not interested in assimilating.

The simple fact is that nothing will improve the quality of RP in II except.... improving the quality of RP in II. I know, it blew my mind too. Almost everyone who has posted in this thread came of age in a time when there were plenty of good or at least halfway decent RPers floating around, not all in the same "group" either. You could click on an open RP thread and as often as not the quality would interest you in actually contributing something. The fact is that if this lineup of "mentors" is the best II has to offer, things have seriously deteriorated, since they are pretty terrible. They don't write well, they don't work things out well OOCly and they're pretty clearly mostly in it for their own self-aggrandizement ("wow, I answered five telegrams today, I'm awesome!"); and the fact that a lot of people don't see this is a sign that there simply isn't anyone better who posts more than once every two months.

You want some constructive criticism? Here's constructive criticism. Turn in your mentor badges. All of you. Shut down your computers. Read some books. Set yourselves creative writing exercises. Spend the time you'd otherwise spend on stupid formatting tricks to make your mediocre posts look pretty improving your craft. Come back, write well and stay active. Actually, I'd say the same for all of you, players or mods. Jenrak needs to spend about three months locked away from metaphor, personification and any adjective more than six letters long and I don't know why Czardas is even here since he never does anything. And some people need to be permanently banned from using any formatting other than bold or italic. Maybe then we'll start to see actual improvement in II's RP quality, although I'm not hopeful.

I don't mean to come across as harsh or mean-spirited here, but that, from an outsider's perspective, is what's wrong with II. Nor am I going to lead by example, since I have neither time nor investment in the community. It's easy to criticise, isn't it? <_< As long as someone in "authority" is listening, though, I figure it's worth making the point. II is simply terrible. II consists of roleplaying. Therefore, improve the roleplaying; don't start another trainer circlejerk.

[Milograd]

The reality is, a majority of the 'issue' here seems to be stemming from general, butthurt, as I see it. I don't see how such objections can be made so clear after a mere two days since this program was announced. If it is going to help international incidents, improve, isn't it worth it? Should players improve due to the Mentorship program, it really shouldn't be much of an issue. Will it have its flaws? Maybe. Then again, it must be kept in mind that this is experimental, and that things are subject to change. If it helps other players, in this case, I really can't find any serious issue with the program, and in that case it would be quite the success.

To quote what I said before;

"I'd go ahead an make a good old wall of text response. But, I don't feel that in this case that it is necessary, for the sole reason that the International Incidents Mentorship Program has been around for not even two days. How can judgement be drawn so quickly, with any accuracy at all?

ViZion explains it quite well, as I see it, and it must also be noted that once again, this program was announced a mere two days ago. Lets at least give it a chance first, before bashing it or drawing judgements. And to be honest, I think the mentor program has done pretty well for its first few days, as I have already seen some of the said mentors provide help to multiple players across the board.

However, I also agree with the position that you do not need to be an II Mentor to help other players out. You just need to be willing to help, determined, knowledgable, patient, and generally kind at that. "

It has been two days since this program was announced, can we really object to it that much after a mere two days? All I have seen is speculation about why this is so flawed, but nothing concrete. So far, it seems to be doing just fine, to be blunt. It will likely go through changes as it goes on, but shouldn't the program be given a chance to "start" before we call it out on its flaws? While speculation is hardly a crime, people seem to be going overboard here, as of right now at least. Most things, or concerns, have likely been taken into account by the mind behind this program, and with that in mind it must be assumed that if the II mentors really were going to walk around II like a "II Gestapo", then such would be against the interests of this program. Do you honestly think that anyone wants a 'II Gestapo'? I don't think anyone does, to be frank.

"The idea of Mentors is to actively help people, not force them to change. The people can accept the advice or not, but the mentors will be around to help, not moderate."

Clamparapa pretty much nails it there. The II Mentors are here to help roleplayers, not moderate them. As it has been said, for the most part, roleplay has never really been moderated, if at all. They aren't around for the sake of being some sort of "NS Gestapo", they are merely 'endorsed sources' of information about roleplaying, and nothing more.

I also must note that I find it odd that some of the people who are so opposed to this program, happened to support the "II Umpires" idea, for obvious reasons. The entire concept behind II Umpires is something that I see quite present within this program, and thus it comes off as odd/unusual that the same people who supported II Umpires object so greatly to a very similar concept. Just my two cents on that though.

Lets give the program a chance to get itself up and running, assess it, and then draw conclusions. From there, changes can be made, since this is an experimental program, right?

How would that be any different from NationStates Trainers, though? I mean, it's theoretically the same concept—players have to go looking for help, and anyone and their brother can offer advice, even if it's incorrect.

Again, acceptance by Jenrak does not make your advice any more correct. I'm a bit concerned about everyone thinking this is the case -- just because you're more "official" does not make you any more right.

It's worth noting that I do not agree with NST, but if it's NST or this, I prefer the former.

Hmm...you have acknowledged that NST did not work, if I remember correctly. So, you mean to say that you prefer a program that was 'ineffective' in your opinion, to a program that has been around for a mere two days, with hardly enough time having passed for accurate conclusions to be drawn?

An official title means that anything these people say carries more weight than if someone without the title says it, and that, to take your example, people will more likely TG the person with the title than a person without. There's not really a need to spend 10 paragraphs discussing it, that's just the way it is

As I see it, if the said mentor is in fact a mentor, then they were likely chosen because they are capable of helping others, and whats wrong with having people who are capable of helping others...well, helping others? It doesn't mean that other players are not allowed to help the community, it merely means that these mentors can be taken as "endorsed" helpers, and thus can be identified as reliable on sight. Naturally, this does not mean that only they can help others, as such would be foolish, and it does not mean that they are the supreme authority on rping, as said in the OP;

Always being wary and mindful of any problems that may arise are important, but always keep an open mind; you are there to provide helping hands to assist others in their roleplaying abilities, but it is nowhere stated that you are the utmost authority when it comes to RPing. It is best to be respectful and humble, and always help those asking help whenever you can.

The quote above is in regards to mentors, and quite clearly addresses one of the concerns that has been brought up within this thread. I'm not too sure if everyone has even taken the time to read the OP, unfortunately, so I'll just link it again.

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=5973057#p5973057

But again, we should pretty much give the program a chance to get itself up and running, assess it, and then draw conclusions. From there, changes can be made, since this is an experimental program, right?

This is not going to work.

NSTrainer programs do not work. Moderated roleplay not only does not work but will kill the community. (and yes, this will effectively create moderated roleplay, since it says "we officially approve of people who roleplay like this.") A combination of both will first drive away the experienced players not part of the mentorclique and then any talented new players not interested in assimilating.

The simple fact is that nothing will improve the quality of RP in II except.... improving the quality of RP in II. I know, it blew my mind too. Almost everyone who has posted in this thread came of age in a time when there were plenty of good or at least halfway decent RPers floating around, not all in the same "group" either. You could click on an open RP thread and as often as not the quality would interest you in actually contributing something. The fact is that if this lineup of "mentors" is the best II has to offer, things have seriously deteriorated, since they are pretty terrible. They don't write well, they don't work things out well OOCly and they're pretty clearly mostly in it for their own self-aggrandizement ("wow, I answered five telegrams today, I'm awesome!"); and the fact that a lot of people don't see this is a sign that there simply isn't anyone better who posts more than once every two months.

You want some constructive criticism? Here's constructive criticism. Turn in your mentor badges. All of you. Shut down your computers. Read some books. Set yourselves creative writing exercises. Spend the time you'd otherwise spend on stupid formatting tricks to make your mediocre posts look pretty improving your craft. Come back, write well and stay active. Actually, I'd say the same for all of you, players or mods. Jenrak needs to spend about three months locked away from metaphor, personification and any adjective more than six letters long and I don't know why Czardas is even here since he never does anything. And some people need to be permanently banned from using any formatting other than bold or italic. Maybe then we'll start to see actual improvement in II's RP quality, although I'm not hopeful.

I don't mean to come across as harsh or mean-spirited here, but that, from an outsider's perspective, is what's wrong with II. Nor am I going to lead by example, since I have neither time nor investment in the community. It's easy to criticise, isn't it? <_< As long as someone in "authority" is listening, though, I figure it's worth making the point. II is simply terrible. II consists of roleplaying. Therefore, improve the roleplaying; don't start another trainer circlejerk.

"Therefore, improve the roleplaying; don't start another trainer circlejerk." - Is that not why this program exists? The trainers are here to improve the roleplaying, as you put it. It is a shame that you feel as you do about II, but some of us have quite a good time roleplaying on this site, and therefore will do all that we can to improve the quality of roleplaying around us, at least the dedicated of our 'community' will do what they can.

And I don't know about you, but if you enjoyed this game as much as others, wouldn't you agree that you would do whatever you could to improve the quality of the roleplayers around you, and thus make the game more enjoyable for yourself, and the people around you? This is an attempt at doing such, and I am hoping it will work, for the reasons that I have already stated.

Nationstates is a game, and it should be fun for everyone who plays it. As I see it, this program is taking a good step towards allowing everyone to have more fun on Nationstates, but thats just me.

[North Defese]

After observing this thread, I've noticed something interesting.

The majority of people who are whining as hard as they possible can about how this will create an elite group of elitist elites are the same people who left NS for SMS because it has "better RP'ers", or just people who haven't been part of the NS RP'ing community.

I'm sorry, but if you leave this community and come back just to bitch and complain, then your opinion means nothing. You cannot leave NS and then come back soley to complain about a project that you won't even be a part of.

Saint Clair Island, I really like your unfounded claims, foolish assumptions and horrible "constructive criticisim".

Seriously people. It's been less than 48 hours and already you're throwing out all sorts of garbage and petty criticisms.

Here's some advice for you:

Take a deep breath, calm down, and go back to SMS if you don't like how we do things here.

[Yohannes]

The reality is, a majority of the 'issue' here seems to be stemming from general, butthurt, as I see it. I don't see how such objections can be made so clear after a mere two days since this program was announced. If it is going to help international incidents, improve, isn't it worth it? Should players improve due to the Mentorship program, it really shouldn't be much of an issue. Will it have its flaws? Maybe. Then again, it must be kept in mind that this is experimental, and that things are subject to change. If it helps other players, in this case, I really can't find any serious issue with the program, and in that case it would be quite the success.

To quote what I said before;

"I'd go ahead an make a good old wall of text response. But, I don't feel that in this case that it is necessary, for the sole reason that the International Incidents Mentorship Program has been around for not even two days. How can judgement be drawn so quickly, with any accuracy at all?

ViZion explains it quite well, as I see it, and it must also be noted that once again, this program was announced a mere two days ago. Lets at least give it a chance first, before bashing it or drawing judgements. And to be honest, I think the mentor program has done pretty well for its first few days, as I have already seen some of the said mentors provide help to multiple players across the board.

However, I also agree with the position that you do not need to be an II Mentor to help other players out. You just need to be willing to help, determined, knowledgable, patient, and generally kind at that. "

It has been two days since this program was announced, can we really object to it that much after a mere two days? All I have seen is speculation about why this is so flawed, but nothing concrete. So far, it seems to be doing just fine, to be blunt. It will likely go through changes as it goes on, but shouldn't the program be given a chance to "start" before we call it out on its flaws? While speculation is hardly a crime, people seem to be going overboard here, as of right now at least. Most things, or concerns, have likely been taken into account by the mind behind this program, and with that in mind it must be assumed that if the II mentors really were going to walk around II like a "II Gestapo", then such would be against the interests of this program. Do you honestly think that anyone wants a 'II Gestapo'? I don't think anyone does, to be frank.

"The idea of Mentors is to actively help people, not force them to change. The people can accept the advice or not, but the mentors will be around to help, not moderate."

Clamparapa pretty much nails it there. The II Mentors are here to help roleplayers, not moderate them. As it has been said, for the most part, roleplay has never really been moderated, if at all. They aren't around for the sake of being some sort of "NS Gestapo", they are merely 'endorsed sources' of information about roleplaying, and nothing more.

I also must note that I find it odd that some of the people who are so opposed to this program, happened to support the "II Umpires" idea, for obvious reasons. The entire concept behind II Umpires is something that I see quite present within this program, and thus it comes off as odd/unusual that the same people who supported II Umpires object so greatly to a very similar concept. Just my two cents on that though.

Lets give the program a chance to get itself up and running, assess it, and then draw conclusions. From there, changes can be made, since this is an experimental program, right?

Again, acceptance by Jenrak does not make your advice any more correct. I'm a bit concerned about everyone thinking this is the case -- just because you're more "official" does not make you any more right.

It's worth noting that I do not agree with NST, but if it's NST or this, I prefer the former.

Hmm...you have acknowledged that NST did not work, if I remember correctly. So, you mean to say that you prefer a program that was 'ineffective' in your opinion, to a program that has been around for a mere two days, with hardly enough time having passed for accurate conclusions to be drawn?

An official title means that anything these people say carries more weight than if someone without the title says it, and that, to take your example, people will more likely TG the person with the title than a person without. There's not really a need to spend 10 paragraphs discussing it, that's just the way it is

As I see it, if the said mentor is in fact a mentor, then they were likely chosen because they are capable of helping others, and whats wrong with having people who are capable of helping others...well, helping others? It doesn't mean that other players are not allowed to help the community, it merely means that these mentors can be taken as "endorsed" helpers, and thus can be identified as reliable on sight. Naturally, this does not mean that only they can help others, as such would be foolish, and it does not mean that they are the supreme authority on rping, as said in the OP;

Always being wary and mindful of any problems that may arise are important, but always keep an open mind; you are there to provide helping hands to assist others in their roleplaying abilities, but it is nowhere stated that you are the utmost authority when it comes to RPing. It is best to be respectful and humble, and always help those asking help whenever you can.

The quote above is in regards to mentors, and quite clearly addresses one of the concerns that has been brought up within this thread. I'm not too sure if everyone has even taken the time to read the OP, unfortunately, so I'll just link it again.

http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=5973057#p5973057

But again, we should pretty much give the program a chance to get itself up and running, assess it, and then draw conclusions. From there, changes can be made, since this is an experimental program, right?

This is not going to work.

NSTrainer programs do not work. Moderated roleplay not only does not work but will kill the community. (and yes, this will effectively create moderated roleplay, since it says "we officially approve of people who roleplay like this.") A combination of both will first drive away the experienced players not part of the mentorclique and then any talented new players not interested in assimilating.

The simple fact is that nothing will improve the quality of RP in II except.... improving the quality of RP in II. I know, it blew my mind too. Almost everyone who has posted in this thread came of age in a time when there were plenty of good or at least halfway decent RPers floating around, not all in the same "group" either. You could click on an open RP thread and as often as not the quality would interest you in actually contributing something. The fact is that if this lineup of "mentors" is the best II has to offer, things have seriously deteriorated, since they are pretty terrible. They don't write well, they don't work things out well OOCly and they're pretty clearly mostly in it for their own self-aggrandizement ("wow, I answered five telegrams today, I'm awesome!"); and the fact that a lot of people don't see this is a sign that there simply isn't anyone better who posts more than once every two months.

You want some constructive criticism? Here's constructive criticism. Turn in your mentor badges. All of you. Shut down your computers. Read some books. Set yourselves creative writing exercises. Spend the time you'd otherwise spend on stupid formatting tricks to make your mediocre posts look pretty improving your craft. Come back, write well and stay active. Actually, I'd say the same for all of you, players or mods. Jenrak needs to spend about three months locked away from metaphor, personification and any adjective more than six letters long and I don't know why Czardas is even here since he never does anything. And some people need to be permanently banned from using any formatting other than bold or italic. Maybe then we'll start to see actual improvement in II's RP quality, although I'm not hopeful.

I don't mean to come across as harsh or mean-spirited here, but that, from an outsider's perspective, is what's wrong with II. Nor am I going to lead by example, since I have neither time nor investment in the community. It's easy to criticise, isn't it? <_< As long as someone in "authority" is listening, though, I figure it's worth making the point. II is simply terrible. II consists of roleplaying. Therefore, improve the roleplaying; don't start another trainer circlejerk.

"Therefore, improve the roleplaying; don't start another trainer circlejerk." - Is that not why this program exists? The trainers are here to improve the roleplaying, as you put it. It is a shame that you feel as you do about II, but some of us have quite a good time roleplaying on this site, and therefore will do all that we can to improve the quality of roleplaying around us, at least the dedicated of our 'community' will do what they can.

And I don't know about you, but if you enjoyed this game as much as others, wouldn't you agree that you would do whatever you could to improve the quality of the roleplayers around you, and thus make the game more enjoyable for yourself, and the people around you? This is an attempt at doing such, and I am hoping it will work, for the reasons that I have already stated.

Nationstates is a game, and it should be fun for everyone who plays it. As I see it, this program is taking a good step towards allowing everyone to have more fun on Nationstates, but thats just me.

For godsake Carta, DO YOU really think that this implies that all of us are equal?

Butthurt? For godsake, read what Saint Clair Island has said most eloquently.

I cannot believe that one day, i will oppose those which has become my associate for such a long time in this game, which is meant to be fun.

There will be newbs, the not-so-capabled newbs, and the capabled rpers and the extremely capabled rpers. This is why NS is so unique. This is why also, the NS community won't die. It won't die of inactivity. That's just ridiculous. This whole initiative divides up the community, divides up friends from friends. It divides anything up.

This is not going to work.

NSTrainer programs do not work. Moderated roleplay not only does not work but will kill the community. (and yes, this will effectively create moderated roleplay, since it says "we officially approve of people who roleplay like this.") A combination of both will first drive away the experienced players not part of the mentorclique and then any talented new players not interested in assimilating.

The simple fact is that nothing will improve the quality of RP in II except.... improving the quality of RP in II. I know, it blew my mind too. Almost everyone who has posted in this thread came of age in a time when there were plenty of good or at least halfway decent RPers floating around, not all in the same "group" either. You could click on an open RP thread and as often as not the quality would interest you in actually contributing something. The fact is that if this lineup of "mentors" is the best II has to offer, things have seriously deteriorated, since they are pretty terrible. They don't write well, they don't work things out well OOCly and they're pretty clearly mostly in it for their own self-aggrandizement ("wow, I answered five telegrams today, I'm awesome!"); and the fact that a lot of people don't see this is a sign that there simply isn't anyone better who posts more than once every two months.

It already goddamned drives me away from this whole stuff. How dare you judge me, after all the thing which i have went through on this game long time ago, what with all the hard way i have to learn from the veteran NS community, to become the roleplayer that i am today.

From the very first day that i had learnt the hard way of what i had done wrong. I have always tried to help THOSE which i sympathised upon. Carta, Deus/Latyna, you all remember me. I was THERE back then.

I was there NOT because i wanted to feel good. I was there because i wanted to help you all, and because i did not want you all to make the same mistake that i have made when i first started on this game.

How dare this systematic clique' of greenish knighthood emblem separating me from a bunch of "wisdom and more deserving" roleplayers.

I have done my part on this game, i have, in my time, seen the grows of more than two exceptional roleplayers with talents, to become what they have become today.

This program is nothing but a moderator appointed popularity contest. I am disgusted by this programme, and in answer to a telegram which i got;

Yes, i will oppose this programme to the bitter end, until it dies, together with other horrid stuff, such as my own giant mistakes which i have made long time ago during my nooby past; the G20. Let this programme die along with the likes of the G20 NS and all the other incredulous exclusivity popularity contest which divides up the community.

It has no place in the NS which we love so much. It only further divides up the community.

Am i leading by example here? No, perhaps i know i am not. I am Yohannes. I do not care what other people thinks of me. Whether those that looks up to me all this time will be dissapointed by my post here. Let the future be the judge, and the history be recorded. I am here just to have fun, to roleplay as i wish, to picturespam this: ^_____________________^ smiley whenever i wanted to. I won't be judge by a shade of light green emblem.

Let the future rpers see and judge for themselves whether this programme trully deserve its so-called noble objective.

This is not going to work.

NSTrainer programs do not work. Moderated roleplay not only does not work but will kill the community. (and yes, this will effectively create moderated roleplay, since it says "we officially approve of people who roleplay like this.") A combination of both will first drive away the experienced players not part of the mentorclique and then any talented new players not interested in assimilating.

It has already driven me away, and i am disgusted that all these time i have shamelessly helped those which i have assisted so far with the best in mind, and suddenly this initiative of rewarding others for doing the same comes along.

Words cannot express my dissapointment and its creator, who i once looked up to with the utmost admiration.

Now i will have to pray to Aliceinthewonderland that somehow this goddamn thing can be erased from my egosearch. I have had it watching this thread being bumped up in my egosearch everytime i got more important things to do, such as managing my storefronts, embassy thread, etc.

[Ustio North]

Jenrak needs to spend about three months locked away from metaphor, personification and any adjective more than six letters long and I don't know why Czardas is even here since he never does anything

Now see, what you're suggesting there is RP Moderation. You're telling RPer how they should or should not Roleplay. I don't see why Jenrak should stay away from Metaphor - it's his style, and it's not my place to tell him it's not the "right" way to RP. Whereas the difference between that and the Mentors is that the Mentor will not go around saying "This is how you must do it or you'll be shunned" but will go around saying something like "This is how you could improve your Roleplaying, and it should help your overall NS experience."

Allow me to make this simple; If a player does not want our advice, or does not take our advice, we will not shun them or go around telling people not to RP with them. The Mentors are a group intended as a visible contact group for Roleplaying-related issues, as well dispensing advice to players that we feel may benefit from our collective knowledge of the game. We aren't Mods, so we have no official power to start banning people who refuse to take our advice, nor are we RP Moderators. We won't be berating newer players (or older players) because their RP's - to coin a phrase - "aren't up to scratch". If they want to continue RPing the way they're doing, then they can. We can't and won't stop them.

The one possible and great advantage of this programme is that IF it works, the overall levels of RPing and Roleplay Co-operation should be increased.

And as I say, if it fails, I will gladly stand in front of the haters and take the flak for it.

[Jagalonia]

Ahhh.....NS.....Where you can post literaly anything, and find somone to argue it.

I think this is a good idea, it gives new players somone they know can be trusted among the roleplay community to ask for help. I even remember Deus clearing up an issue about MT jetpacks a while back. So it's not just for newer members, most of these people know their stuff, and know what's to be considered "In bad taste".

Congratulations to everyone that's a part of it.

[-Deus-]

-Stuffff-

Do you even RP or write at all? Your going to tell someone [Let's take your Jenrak thing] to change their style of writing when your more or less arguing against giving suggestion and telling people how to write?


This is an experiment, you see. And thus, give it room to breath inside of stalking it into a corner only after 2 days. Seriously, making odd claims over this and that, based solely on a colour and mod involved, only after 2 days it quite iffy at best if you want to get your argument across. If you don't like it, arguing won't fix it. If you don't like it, simply state you disagree, why you dislike it and that's that really. Don't start hurling unjust claims and rather obviously false claims without seeing this through. Screaming about it like a child - on a silly internet forum game, which more or less doesn't need your negative views on something with good intentions - isn't going to fix anything.

Yep, that's it. Also, thanks Jagalonia. I think.