NATION

PASSWORD

Guide to Overlooked Aspects of Warfare

A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events. [In character]

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Saxon Germany
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Founded: Dec 01, 2010
Ex-Nation

Postby Saxon Germany » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:15 pm

Third Spanish States wrote:
Saxon Germany wrote:'Tis a good thread AMF, shame that you're now being insulted by TSS and Lhazastan. TSS, in the words of your NSD brethren who've been DEAT'ed over the years for thinking they're too good for NS so they don't have to follow the rules;

Deal with it.


-snip-


How predictable "Hai gais I hate NSD and you are always right can I become mod", or "Hai gais I want join inner circle of #g clique". Obvious bias favorable to those who put comments like yours impeaches me of providing a proper answer to your yesman comment over a matter that has been already obviously left alone and is tangential to the thread's content, left alone for a good reason because obviously, everything that had to be written about it already was.

There are no legal, fair following and application of rules here as surely as Dear Leader thinking you look funny and wanting you executed in North Korea isn't written anywhere. But that is not the subject at hand and that is a problem that will last until this site goes offline, as will last those who exploit it by being liars and sucking up in exchange of favors and ego strokes. The subject at hand is that you obviously tried to troll me, perhaps in the hopes the immunity of those who post opinions favorable to the status quo shall grant you the pleasure of using mods as weapons in this thread. On that, I will just put another name in my fortunately tiny ignore_list, and hope you're not a puppet of someone who would rather not have his main associated with this kind of comment you made.

And to finish this, commenting on a potential problem is not an "insult" to the great, flawless ones in the join date lottery. Only a gigantic ego would treat any form of direct or tangential criticism as an insult, and besides, I didn't give names, and there are more than just one person who does that thing(or did it before moving offsite) so my comment, specifically, was not targeted at anybody. Someone who wouldn't have no feeling of guilty about the subject wouldn't feel "insulted".

And, like I say when I know the futility of hoping improvement over something inherent to a few cliques that won't ever change for the best, let's leave at that.


I'd respond to it were it not for the fact that you're practically a professional troll, TSS. Looking at it you seem to categorise me as a brownnoser. I guess if you got out of your habit of sitting around moaning about 'Mod tyranny' and paid attention to NS, you'd know I don't really associate with Automagfreek at all, regardless of which nation I'm using.

Nothing I say should be taken as an insult against all of the #d crowd, because I do respect a few of them, such as Satirius and Anemos Major. Hmm. It appears I've ended up responding. I will bid you good day, and do the same in putting yourself on ignore so I do not find myself provoked by your trollish sentiments.
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Jenrak
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Postby Jenrak » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:17 pm

Best course of direction is to get back on topic on this guide. So, let's do that.

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Crimmond
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Postby Crimmond » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:40 pm

Jenrak wrote:Best course of direction is to get back on topic on this guide. So, let's do that.

But... but... I had a really scathing response lined up! :(
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Jenrak
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Founded: Oct 06, 2004
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Postby Jenrak » Mon Apr 18, 2011 10:26 pm

Crimmond wrote:
Jenrak wrote:Best course of direction is to get back on topic on this guide. So, let's do that.

But... but... I had a really scathing response lined up! :(


>:\ SUCH IS FATE

to prevent being fault for being offtopic, I would like to ask a (marginally) topical question: what are your (anyone who's reading this and willing to answer) thoughts on desertion within times of more pressing crises?

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Alexiandra
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Alexiandra » Mon Apr 18, 2011 11:08 pm

Jenrak wrote:
Crimmond wrote:But... but... I had a really scathing response lined up! :(


>:\ SUCH IS FATE

to prevent being fault for being offtopic, I would like to ask a (marginally) topical question: what are your (anyone who's reading this and willing to answer) thoughts on desertion within times of more pressing crises?

We kill zem. Kill zem all!
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Jenrak
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Postby Jenrak » Tue Apr 19, 2011 7:14 pm

Alexiandra wrote:
Jenrak wrote:
>:\ SUCH IS FATE

to prevent being fault for being offtopic, I would like to ask a (marginally) topical question: what are your (anyone who's reading this and willing to answer) thoughts on desertion within times of more pressing crises?

We kill zem. Kill zem all!


Mayhap I am in the teh philosorapter moed, but!!!!!

How can you kill that which you cannot catch, grasshopper????

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Dimoniquid
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Postby Dimoniquid » Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:28 am

Nuke it? I mean, that's another overlooked aspect. I mean, you can't just send it off, like throwing stone. You have to choose the size, how long the distance is...
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:46 am

It's a nice guide, it's just a shame that people won't actually take it in. People can read this, but a lot of people don't have the RP skill to enact it properly. Or a lack of interest; I mean, really, quartermasters aren't fun.
Last edited by Questers on Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dimoniquid
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Postby Dimoniquid » Wed Apr 20, 2011 8:48 am

Questers wrote:It's a nice guide, it's just a shame that people won't actually take it in. People can read this, but a lot of people don't have the RP skill to enact it properly.

I've taken it aside. See my war thread against Lewis with Harris - I might not have actually set up the amphibious assault, but I have the rest intact.
Currently revamping entire nation.

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Dystopianus
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Founded: May 01, 2010
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Postby Dystopianus » Wed Apr 20, 2011 9:57 am

Jenrak wrote:
Crimmond wrote:But... but... I had a really scathing response lined up! :(


>:\ SUCH IS FATE

to prevent being fault for being offtopic, I would like to ask a (marginally) topical question: what are your (anyone who's reading this and willing to answer) thoughts on desertion within times of more pressing crises?
I was about to ask something about the "discussion who must not be named", but I'll just jump over to the new topic.

Official answer of the Imperial Dominion's army, taken from the Combatwiki (online Dystopian combat manual wiki):

"Desertion is when people stop fighting to protect their own minds. When that happens, their minds are vunerable to the ethernal enemy, and that is why the ethernal enemy will allways encourage you to stop believing in Minerva. If you don't keep your mind right, the enemy will posess it, and then there is no turning back. Your body will be a mortal slave of the enemy, with your soul trapped inside it, screaming for salvation from the darkness. The only way to free a soul from a conquered body is to end the mission and kill you, the soldier. Only then the soldier's soul can be at ease.

In some very rare cases we have encountered that by heavy cleansing of the mind, a person can regain control over his conquered body from the shadow's will, without us having to kill that person. But only in very rare cases, and only if the subject is willing and determined to escape from the shadows. Even so, killing the subject is most likely a faster way of freeing his soul. Besides that re-conquered minds are still more vunerable to enemy attacks and therefore those people are not allowed to serve in the army again.

Even then, you must always be sure to keep your mind clear, as there is a chance that your remaining body will be used as a slave by the enemy, and that we might not get the chance to relieve your soul anytime soon."


(in other words: Kill deserters if you can, for you will be doing something humane actually. If you can't kill them, no probs; let them go and just forget about them. If they are captured or return again, put them in prison and convince them that what they did was bad, they should regret what they did, and if they are lucky they won't have to serve again and they'll be replaced in society, although they will be frowned upon by the general community.)
Last edited by Dystopianus on Thu Apr 21, 2011 6:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
Factbook: check it out before writing any comments about me, this is valueble information that might make you think differently about me. viewtopic.php?f=23&t=89623
OMGeverynameistaken wrote:Have you ever been in a battle where trained war kittens were unleashed on the field? Have you heard the screams of the dying as their faces were chewed off by adorable, yet deadly, swarms of kittens? No. No. You have no idea of the terror which a trained kitten squad can inflict, the horror and madness as the wall of fluffy death closes on you. I have been, I have seen. The art of the Kittenmeister is a truly terrible thing to behold

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Tecknoko
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Founded: Oct 06, 2010
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Postby Tecknoko » Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:30 am

Jenrak wrote:
Alexiandra wrote:We kill zem. Kill zem all!


Mayhap I am in the teh philosorapter moed, but!!!!!

How can you kill that which you cannot catch, grasshopper????


Run away and wait for it to come to you, O' High One.
Last edited by Tecknoko on Fri Mar 05, 1972 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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RandomGuyNation
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Founded: Apr 01, 2011
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Postby RandomGuyNation » Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:47 pm

tag
Embassy Programme
Epic Song (Snowflake)
Strength, Peace, and Opportunity
MARSTAT 1-Threat Confronted. War is imminent.
MARSTAT 2-All regular military units are mobilized for conflict. Reserve units may also have been mobilized. Nuclear weapons arsenal is prepared for deployment if directed to do so by the President.
MARSTAT 3-All soldiers on leave are recalled to their bases. Regular military units begin mobilization. Reserve units also begin mobilization if directed to do so by the President.
MARSTAT 4-Threat Comprehended. All leaves canceled.
MARSTAT 5-Threat Identified. Increased intelligence watch.
MARSTAT 6-Peace.

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Alexiandra
Minister
 
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Founded: Feb 04, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Alexiandra » Tue May 03, 2011 12:23 am

Jenrak wrote:
Alexiandra wrote:We kill zem. Kill zem all!


Mayhap I am in the teh philosorapter moed, but!!!!!

How can you kill that which you cannot catch, grasshopper????

We always catch them... muhaha...
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Stefannica
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Founded: Apr 21, 2011
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Postby Stefannica » Tue May 03, 2011 4:55 am

I couldn't agree more. Thanks for the info, be sure to use this and remind some of my friends. Job well done
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The Mighty Islands
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Founded: Jan 04, 2011
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Postby The Mighty Islands » Sat May 14, 2011 3:28 pm

I have a question about logistics, would it be wrong to employ private logistics like mercenaries. I know that in real war, some people refuel jets and do other jobs in the same way as mercenaries, but to a lesser extent. Could I have entire companies that that do private logistics for my military so I can send more men to the field? And just like mercenaries, I wouldn't have 100% of my logistics corps privatized, but part of it would, freeing up more men to hold a gun instead of putting bullets in the clips. And I know that this would have an effect on morale on the privatized men because they aren't really prepared for combat, so if the front lines reach them they might scatter. But is this at least possible?

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Mount Shavano
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Postby Mount Shavano » Sat May 14, 2011 7:05 pm

The Mighty Islands wrote:I have a question about logistics, would it be wrong to employ private logistics like mercenaries. I know that in real war, some people refuel jets and do other jobs in the same way as mercenaries, but to a lesser extent. Could I have entire companies that that do private logistics for my military so I can send more men to the field? And just like mercenaries, I wouldn't have 100% of my logistics corps privatized, but part of it would, freeing up more men to hold a gun instead of putting bullets in the clips. And I know that this would have an effect on morale on the privatized men because they aren't really prepared for combat, so if the front lines reach them they might scatter. But is this at least possible?


I don't think this would free up more men; the same jobs still need to be done. It would increase the percentage of your military on the firing line at the expense of the total size of your military (since the private logistics men would come out of the percentage that most nations would have in their military). Just my two cents.
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Capital : San Angelo

Generally called the Front Range, Mount Shavano, or the Front Range Republic.
Demonym: Front Rangers or Shavanese.

A note: I RP as a light-PMT nation with a population of 150 million. I define my level of PMT to conveniently be exactly enough of a military/political/economic advantage to keep Mount Shavano at the spot in the 'national pecking order' suggested by conventional statistics.

Another note: If I made a spelling or similar error, point it out.

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The Grand World Order
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Postby The Grand World Order » Sat May 14, 2011 9:00 pm

The Mighty Islands wrote:I have a question about logistics, would it be wrong to employ private logistics like mercenaries. I know that in real war, some people refuel jets and do other jobs in the same way as mercenaries, but to a lesser extent. Could I have entire companies that that do private logistics for my military so I can send more men to the field? And just like mercenaries, I wouldn't have 100% of my logistics corps privatized, but part of it would, freeing up more men to hold a gun instead of putting bullets in the clips. And I know that this would have an effect on morale on the privatized men because they aren't really prepared for combat, so if the front lines reach them they might scatter. But is this at least possible?


The mercenaries still take a man out of the factory or burger joint.
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Automagfreek
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Postby Automagfreek » Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:46 am

I'm giving this a well needed bump.
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Lolzieristan
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Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Lolzieristan » Wed May 02, 2012 11:43 am

The one glaring problem with this guide is that no one knows it exists. I actually started writing this before I discovered it exists. I even covered most of the exact same topics you did, like logistics and deployment, crossing oceans, and stuff like that. While writing it, Ie realized about half of this stuff boils down to is this:

People usually do not establish good maps to show the relationship between their country and their enemies. Thus, they have no idea how to even approach the things we're discussing here.

Nations in NS are a lot like ships; they float around in space until they choose to pull alongside each other to exchange broadsides, Every now and then, they'll cluster for massive battles. But they rarely take the time to concretely establish the distances and content of their interiors, and more importantly, the distances and content of the space between them.

If your country is separated from the enemy's by two thousand miles of ocean, then you'll have to ship your forces and supplies that far.
If your national boundary is focused on a wide river, then the enemy will have to secure bridges and/or vessels to cross it.
If the boundary is mountains, then they'll have to secure a pass and then funnel their lines of supply through it.
If there's a patch of jungle or marshland, then armor will be virtually negated, and even fire support from artillery and aircraft might be due to the thick tree covering. I've even heard incidents where satellite, and even radio, contact was interrupted due to the thickness of the canopy. Not to mention the misery of jungle/swamp fighting in general, what with the insufferable heat and humitidy, the swarms of insects and parasites, the inordinate amount of rainfall, and everything else you could possibly imagine.

But no one realizes this, because they usually assume the entirety of the world in which they're fighting is level grassland. Even if they don't, they conveniently skip over the rivers, mountains, woods, etc. that they put on their maps as if those things don't affect their operations. If you come out and ask them, "Is warfare in -40 degree weather different than warfare in 110 degree weather?", then of course they'll say "yes, duuuh."
But no one writes it in. And part of it is probably because they don't have maps detailed enough to show things like that.


If your nation is one hundred miles away from the enemy's, like Britain and France, then bombers can take off from one country, bomb the other one, and land safely in the first country without incident. However, if the distance is vast, like the area between the US and Japan, then you'll need to either deploy and protect multiple carriers, secure and defend air bases, or utilize tankers on a massive scale to achieve the same results. Likewise, if your capital is only a small distance away from the enemy's, like North and South Korea's, or like Richmond and Washington in the American Civil War, then desperate last stand defenses or a Korea-style reoccupation campaign will be much more probable than if the distances were, again, vast, like the distance between Moscow and Beijing. The Russians can trade space for time on an epic scale, while the South Koreans' capital is within artillery range of the North Korean border. The United States had to launch a massive chain of island-hopping campaigns to reach Japan; in Europe, it was only one massive amphibious landing, and then (more or less) conventional land warfare from there on out.

If one does not think about the relationship of the war to the map, then it's easy to ignore these elements. But if you have a map that's scaled, accurate, and followed, then questions like
"Where did those bombers come from, exactly?", or
"Now how did you slip that amphibious force past my navy, all the way down my coastline, and into my capital?"
will become clear. However, not only does that require the defender's country to be mapped out well, but it also requires both parties to know the magnitude and direction of the vector between his country and his enemy's.
Last edited by Lolzieristan on Wed May 02, 2012 11:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
Sometimes I'm reading through military threads here, and I stop and think "What the hell is wrong with all of us?" But then I get on Facebook, and realize I'd rather be insane than an idiot.
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Itanica
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Founded: Nov 16, 2011
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Postby Itanica » Wed May 02, 2012 12:31 pm

Jenrak wrote:
Crimmond wrote:But... but... I had a really scathing response lined up! :(


>:\ SUCH IS FATE

to prevent being fault for being offtopic, I would like to ask a (marginally) topical question: what are your (anyone who's reading this and willing to answer) thoughts on desertion within times of more pressing crises?

Deserters may be shot at the will of the man in charge of the squad (ICly)

I think desertion should not be taken lightly or as an easy option. If large numbers of men desert to save their own lives, they could potentially pave the way for the enemy to take millions of lives on the homeland. Think, if the Red Army soldiers were allowed to retreat/desert in WWII, the Germans would have had a much more easy time steamrolling. It was the fact that they had to either face the German bullets or their comrades' bullets that made them keep pushing, for they would rather die at German hands as a hero than at Soviet hands as a coward.
The Socialist Republic of Itanica
Domus liberis Gentibus - Home to the free People
We are currently at COCON 4. Conscription is in effect for all able men and women above the age of 18.
-CONFLICT CONDITION-
0 - Homeland Conquered
1 - Full Scale War
2 - Major Conflict
3 - Minor Conflict
-> 4 - Conflict Readiness <-
5 - Peacetime
Nuclear Silos are at ARECON 3.
Itanica has 30K active ICBMs and 56K inactive (not loaded into silos / mounted to vehicles) ICBMs.
-ATTACK READINESS CONDITION-
0 - Missiles Launched
1 - Ready for launch
2 - Doors opened
-> 3 - Systems online <-
4 - Power activated
5 - All systems offline
Factbook
Red Star Weaponry
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Itanica
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Founded: Nov 16, 2011
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Postby Itanica » Wed May 02, 2012 12:38 pm

Lolzieristan wrote:The one glaring problem with this guide is that no one knows it exists. I actually started writing this before I discovered it exists. I even covered most of the exact same topics you did, like logistics and deployment, crossing oceans, and stuff like that. While writing it, Ie realized about half of this stuff boils down to is this:

People usually do not establish good maps to show the relationship between their country and their enemies. Thus, they have no idea how to even approach the things we're discussing here.

Nations in NS are a lot like ships; they float around in space until they choose to pull alongside each other to exchange broadsides, Every now and then, they'll cluster for massive battles. But they rarely take the time to concretely establish the distances and content of their interiors, and more importantly, the distances and content of the space between them.

If your country is separated from the enemy's by two thousand miles of ocean, then you'll have to ship your forces and supplies that far.
If your national boundary is focused on a wide river, then the enemy will have to secure bridges and/or vessels to cross it.
If the boundary is mountains, then they'll have to secure a pass and then funnel their lines of supply through it.
If there's a patch of jungle or marshland, then armor will be virtually negated, and even fire support from artillery and aircraft might be due to the thick tree covering. I've even heard incidents where satellite, and even radio, contact was interrupted due to the thickness of the canopy. Not to mention the misery of jungle/swamp fighting in general, what with the insufferable heat and humitidy, the swarms of insects and parasites, the inordinate amount of rainfall, and everything else you could possibly imagine.

But no one realizes this, because they usually assume the entirety of the world in which they're fighting is level grassland. Even if they don't, they conveniently skip over the rivers, mountains, woods, etc. that they put on their maps as if those things don't affect their operations. If you come out and ask them, "Is warfare in -40 degree weather different than warfare in 110 degree weather?", then of course they'll say "yes, duuuh."
But no one writes it in. And part of it is probably because they don't have maps detailed enough to show things like that.


If your nation is one hundred miles away from the enemy's, like Britain and France, then bombers can take off from one country, bomb the other one, and land safely in the first country without incident. However, if the distance is vast, like the area between the US and Japan, then you'll need to either deploy and protect multiple carriers, secure and defend air bases, or utilize tankers on a massive scale to achieve the same results. Likewise, if your capital is only a small distance away from the enemy's, like North and South Korea's, or like Richmond and Washington in the American Civil War, then desperate last stand defenses or a Korea-style reoccupation campaign will be much more probable than if the distances were, again, vast, like the distance between Moscow and Beijing. The Russians can trade space for time on an epic scale, while the South Koreans' capital is within artillery range of the North Korean border. The United States had to launch a massive chain of island-hopping campaigns to reach Japan; in Europe, it was only one massive amphibious landing, and then (more or less) conventional land warfare from there on out.

If one does not think about the relationship of the war to the map, then it's easy to ignore these elements. But if you have a map that's scaled, accurate, and followed, then questions like
"Where did those bombers come from, exactly?", or
"Now how did you slip that amphibious force past my navy, all the way down my coastline, and into my capital?"
will become clear. However, not only does that require the defender's country to be mapped out well, but it also requires both parties to know the magnitude and direction of the vector between his country and his enemy's.

I agree with your post here. When I RP a war I will try and get details on the terrain of the enemy's nation and I will RP the time it takes for my troops to get to their country. I usually use regions as sort of continents, like everyone in my region is within the range of xx-yy close to me whereas if you are in another region you are going to be xx-yy far away from me. That is unless I can get specific numbers from the guy I'm invading.
The Socialist Republic of Itanica
Domus liberis Gentibus - Home to the free People
We are currently at COCON 4. Conscription is in effect for all able men and women above the age of 18.
-CONFLICT CONDITION-
0 - Homeland Conquered
1 - Full Scale War
2 - Major Conflict
3 - Minor Conflict
-> 4 - Conflict Readiness <-
5 - Peacetime
Nuclear Silos are at ARECON 3.
Itanica has 30K active ICBMs and 56K inactive (not loaded into silos / mounted to vehicles) ICBMs.
-ATTACK READINESS CONDITION-
0 - Missiles Launched
1 - Ready for launch
2 - Doors opened
-> 3 - Systems online <-
4 - Power activated
5 - All systems offline
Factbook
Red Star Weaponry
My only puppets are Exotica, Esperanzado and The Mamluks.

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Automagfreek
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Posts: 1086
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Automagfreek » Wed May 02, 2012 3:23 pm

Lolzieristan wrote:The one glaring problem with this guide is that no one knows it exists.


None of the new nations know about it, yes, but it has almost 5,000 views, so people have seen it. It does deserve a bump though.
Founded on March 24th, 2003
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Condemned by Security Council Resolution #82
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Radiatia
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Posts: 7216
Founded: Oct 25, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Radiatia » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:44 pm

Automagfreek wrote:
Lolzieristan wrote:The one glaring problem with this guide is that no one knows it exists.


None of the new nations know about it, yes, but it has almost 5,000 views, so people have seen it. It does deserve a bump though.


You know what? I agree that it deserves a bump, and I am going to give it one right now.

This is an excellent guide. I absolutely, completely and utterly suck at War RPing so this will be a great help if I ever get into one.

Thanks Automagfreek!

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The Mongol Ilkhanate
Minister
 
Posts: 3347
Founded: Jun 07, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby The Mongol Ilkhanate » Sun Jun 24, 2012 8:59 pm

Morale. Thank heavens for morale. Every single army I've ever fought in the history of my RP career has been shaolin monks, I swear man. From conscripts with sticks being pushed on by comissars at machine guns to more believable yet still too brave professional mercenaries.

I'd make an addendum about the agrarian system of training in the middle ages. Farming provided more food, but took more time compared to nomadic pastoralism. Hence, your average levy sucked. This is why the Mongols rocked. Every soldier of theirs was better trained than the enemy. Even moreso than knights, who trained on their lonesome and not with each other like the Mongols did. Basically, in the middle ages being agrarian lets you have cities, but your army suffers for it (unless you have a rather small army compared to your population, cough cough Romans).
Last edited by The Mongol Ilkhanate on Sun Jun 24, 2012 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ivania
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 404
Founded: Jan 11, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Ivania » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:44 pm

Good job.
Long Live Novorossiya
Economic Left/Right: -3.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 3.64
Revolutionary Leninist
National anthem of Ivania
Timna wrote:I'm pretty sure it was Sun-Tzu who said "if you underestimate your enemy, he can make you look like a huge cunt in front of all your mates".
Cannot think of a name wrote:
Ivania wrote:Knowing your name.

You shut your filthy mouth...

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