Workers International (MT/PMT Alliance)

[Zonolia]

The People's Republic must protest at the inclusion of this nation into the International at this time. While the system described does seem wonderful, Comorostan has seen many nations who believed that they had harnessed the power of the market and brought capitalism to heel. This is impossible. A nation cannot bring capitalism to heel any more than one can tame a wildfire or a hurricane. Capitalism as an institution is repressive, hierarchical, and damaging to a nation as a whole. It cannot be tamed, reformed, modified, or any other word that stands in for "spared." It can only be destroyed, root and branch, with the ferocity of the revolution.

The People's Republic is open the possibility of Zonolia joining the International, but it must first demonstrate more than a surface commitment to the ideals of the International and dismantle the wolf-in-sheep's-clothing capitalism that masquerades as socialism and institute true state control of the means of production for the benefit of the proletariat. It must also take means to eliminate the class of bourgeois "stockholders" and "administrators" that its system has created.

However we do open our doors to let you see what reform and control allows. Slavery my dear man, slavery. We enslaved Capitalism and now it's head is under our boot of a overpowerful common control of the government. We only explained the economic system which allows fair and equal prosperity, and not the governmental model.

Albeit we have 4 branches of 'government' the lesser 3 serve only as representatives to the 4th supreme, all-powerful branch. What is the name of this branch? "The People". This body includes everyone in Zonolia and has the collective will to eliminate or change anything in Zonolia. They took power on the eve of Dec 12th, 1967 and have ruled since.

And do not worry, the revolution which led to our democratic society is remembered by a majority of Zonolians, along with this, too is the Zonolian Republic remembered. Not only an autocratic society, people died and no one cared as the fascistic leader of the Republic ruled with an iron fist...in 1963 the people rose up first in the factories, then as it progressed in 1967 everyone rose up, 62 million people came out on that eve of Dec. 12th and waited, silent but waited. The military was outmatched, even with guns they could not kill millions of people, the government had lost. The Republic was ended.

Now before you claim we are not free, we know true suffering, we know oppression, we know freedom, we know socialism. Neither system truely works on it's own. Socialism works until you run out of money, and you must appease conservatives. Capitalism exploits and kills, and you have to appease progressives. The systems lie broken only to be mended by mixture and experimentation, what doesn't work for some works for others, even moreso.

[Zonolia]

I agree. The system sounds too capitalistic. How are the industries of your private sector run? From what I see, you do not have workers control of the means of production, which we consider to be an essential part of socialism.

Let me elaborate.
The private industries are ran as private industries are ran. However they are regulated so enormously we've all but drove foreign companies away...
A huge section of codes and our Articles of Social Rights force companies to follow the economic ideology of Industrial Democracy. All private companies are set up in the fashion owners and workers get a equal say in how the company is ran. "Without the other neither could make money"...

Also, that's an essential part of collectivism, not Socialism. Socialism is more than worker economic control. A nation could have workers own their workplace but still be a horrid corrupt nation. Socialism entitles and promises peace, happiness, freedom, liberalism, conservatism, rights, belief, hope...Socialism entitles life.

[Osea 767]

While you are correct that Socialism is more than collective ownership of the means of production, it does not change the fact that it is the common component to the various systems of socialist thought. What you have is a capitalist economic model, though one that my people would think highly of. My nation will still be ready to create a friendship between our two nations and, if things go well, a mutual defence agreement, but membership of this International is not an option at this point.

[Zonolia]

While you are correct that Socialism is more than collective ownership of the means of production, it does not change the fact that it is the common component to the various systems of socialist thought. What you have is a capitalist economic model, though one that my people would think highly of. My nation will still be ready to create a friendship between our two nations and, if things go well, a mutual defence agreement, but membership of this International is not an option at this point.

You, your views on Socialism and the Socialist ideal of not complete and true.

Socialism is exactly as it is, a social-economic theory which puts SOCIETY (thus called SOCIALism) in the main priority. This is in contrary to CAPITALism which puts CAPITAL (thus called CAPITALism) as the main priority.

Socialism can exist fully and still be a free market society as long as it's society doesn't run on a constant capital accumulation design which Zonolia's does not. Socialism's goal is to build a society in which the idea of capital accumulation if ridded of and is no longer needed to ensure the society not to collapse, it's very hard to pull off without a market economy or anarchy, the latter of which is impossible. Heck social programs aren't even Socialist because they do not effect the mode of production nor the social structure in place.

Capitalism exists and is the current society model which the world here follows, we must constantly keep money flowing or else our economies would bust. Capitalism doesn't work because of the innovation it brings, technology replaces humans and it's easier to make more capital accumulation...however because of more money being made and less being paid out to workers the consumers aka the workers cannot afford to buy products bankrupting the business owners and leading to a period of bust until it is fixed.

Zonolia follows a mixed model economically but a socialist model socially. We believe it is more important to be socially socialist than economically.

We are sad to see even Socialist nations do not realize what Socialism and the difference of economics and social structure are and how one doesn't need a change in the other...

[Osea 767]

That is a vague definition of socialism, to say the least. You say in your previous post that "Socialism entitles and promises peace, happiness, freedom, liberalism, conservatism, rights, belief, hope...Socialism entitles life". That in my opinion is but a list of buzzwords. I mean, it includes conservatism and belief as things that socialism entitles. Since when has it been about that?

To cut this short, let us see how defines Capitalism.

- an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

Since your system permits both private business and a free market, I would certainly think it inappropriate for you to be a part of an organisation dedicated to the socialist principles while your economy has yet to develop into a socialist one.

[Zonolia]

That is a vague definition of socialism, to say the least. You say in your previous post that "Socialism entitles and promises peace, happiness, freedom, liberalism, conservatism, rights, belief, hope...Socialism entitles life". That in my opinion is but a list of buzzwords. I mean, it includes conservatism and belief as things that socialism entitles. Since when has it been about that?

To cut this short, let us see how defines Capitalism.

- an economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, and by prices, production, and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market

Since your system permits both private business and a free market, I would certainly think it inappropriate for you to be a part of an organisation dedicated to the socialist principles while your economy has yet to develop into a socialist one.

You're using a dictionary developed by one of the most Capitalistic peoples on earth...

Also, conservatism is a prime thing in Socialism...imagine if a Socialist nation stands a thousand years but then a tyrant comes to power and removes say freedom of speech...the people will want to CONSERVE the ideas of their Socialist forefathers...the opinion of one doesn't constitute the opinion of all. And our economy is very Socialist, we do not follow the profit mode of production PRIMARILY, we follow the social motive which is human happiness, the profit motive was spawned out of this because of the success.

I am sure you can agree that the right is narrow-minded and backwards? Correct? But are you not just as bad for not accepting without doubt the one main idea of the Socialist idea? You resent our change to the formula yet you follow an ideology of change, are we not the Liberal Socialists determined to CHANGE Socialism and are you not the Conservative Socialists wanted to RETAIN the original ideology?

Alas, I forgive you for this is a fundamental split in our ideology which has allowed the enemy to control us, we do not take well to our ideological opposite yet equal Socialists. Socialism has it's own political spectrum ranging from your Conservative Socialism to our Liberal Socialism.

If you cannot live with me in the alliance, fine that your opinion but you do not represent the workers, if you cannot be swayed all I ask as a sign of peace, is we have a fair 'trial' in which the workers of the Workers' International will decide if we are truly an equal.

[Comorostan]

The false distinction between social and economic change is an old and well-known tool of the bourgeois. "Look to the one," the Gangster-Capitalist says. "Look there, and not here, for your change will occur there." But then the Fascist says, "No, no, you must look there, not here." And so on, so the workers are constantly told that the change they seek will come in some other place, but never in the place where true injustice and exploitation occur, for all to see.

The nation of Zonolia claims that they can be socialist in one arena, and capitalist in another. This is a smokescreen. A country cannot be partly socialist. Such things only exacerbate the plight of the proletariat, who are forced to toil away in wage slavery without hope for recourse, because their capitalist task-masters can merely point to their sham reforms and say, "Look, we have socialism!"

The People's Republic of Comorostan remains adamantly opposed to Zonolian membership in the International, and further cautions all member-states of the International to avoid any signs of solidarity with this state, as this would only serve to lend a false sense of legitimacy to a wholly illegitimate claim to membership in the ranks of the socialist states of the world.

[Zonolia]

The false distinction between social and economic change is an old and well-known tool of the bourgeois. "Look to the one," the Gangster-Capitalist says. "Look there, and not here, for your change will occur there." But then the Fascist says, "No, no, you must look there, not here." And so on, so the workers are constantly told that the change they seek will come in some other place, but never in the place where true injustice and exploitation occur, for all to see.

The nation of Zonolia claims that they can be socialist in one arena, and capitalist in another. This is a smokescreen. A country cannot be partly socialist. Such things only exacerbate the plight of the proletariat, who are forced to toil away in wage slavery without hope for recourse, because their capitalist task-masters can merely point to their sham reforms and say, "Look, we have socialism!"

The People's Republic of Comorostan remains adamantly opposed to Zonolian membership in the International, and further cautions all member-states of the International to avoid any signs of solidarity with this state, as this would only serve to lend a false sense of legitimacy to a wholly illegitimate claim to membership in the ranks of the socialist states of the world.

I see once again we have the uproar of a Conservative Socialist State. If our people are so oppression why do they rule? If our people are so oppressed why is the standard of living so high? If our people are oppressed why is this the 2nd most popular regime in our history?

You people are being controlled by your Conservative overlords with a backwards distinction of Socialism, Socialism is change and change is Liberal, the old ideas no longer apply to a nation which didn't have a revolution at the beginning of industry, they had to do with what they have. Where else will you find a nation where the People truly rule democratically? Where else will you find a nation where the army is hated upon? Where else will you find a nation which has tamed Capitalism?

We see this and simply being scared, we have tamed the beast and it works for us now. Private ownership of the means of production is ILLEGAL is Zonolia, the stockholders own the companies, they're public, 15% of worker pay is allocated to stock for they can reap their work. There are no privately owned companies in Zonolia all rely upon stock to work.

Also it perplexes us Socialist nations such as above you call for no 'solidarity' with other nations, are we not equal to you because we use different Socialistic forms? Are we inferior to you? You are the Conservatives and the oppressors in this case. We will not be oppressed by our own brothers in ideology. We find it sad Socialism has come to the mud of claiming it is inferior to other peoples not under it, if a staving child lives in a Capitalist nation is he inferior because of his nationality? We do not believe he is but it is obvious you do.

[Osea 767]

In contrast, we have slain the beast. In our country, there is no capitalism. Instead, the principles of socialism guide us. The workers are the masters of their work place and work not for profit but for a wage based on their contribution.

You call your nation socialist? We seek to transform society, destroy the old order, and to put a new system in its place. While nations here differ in the method to use, with mine and Comorostan preferring the revolutionary path and others preferring to educate and evolve the system into a socialist one, we all seek the same end. You in contrast seek to keep part of the old order intact, to protect it from its much needed demise.

By doing that, your nation joins the ranks of the modern successors to Bernstein and his ilk. In essence, your socialism is that of the class traitor. Naturally, the Communist Party of Yaroslavl denounces all such doctrines and wishes to remind all that to preserve anything of the old capitalist system is to risk the return of capitalism and the loss of all you have gained.

[Hibernion (Ancient)]

Where is the application?

[Osea 767]

OOC: In the first section of the charter, right under the preamble.

[Hibernion (Ancient)]

Full nation name: People's Republic
Population: 56 million
Desired Membership type (Protected State/Full): protected state
Your present relationship with alliance members: positive
National leader's title: Chancellor Patrick Greene
Type of Political system: socialist libertarian republic
Type of Economic System: mixed
State ideology (if applicable): pro-life, anti- homosexual, centrist, religious, free economy, free religion, free speech, free press, everyone should mind their own business

Link to Factbook (if applicable):
Current wars?(if any): no
Military Alliances that you are a member of(if any): not that I know of
Role Play Examples (please give at least two examples if possible, along with links to those examples): could you put that in better detail?
Additional Information that you wish to add: None

[Osea 767]

Your application is denied, due to certain reactionary stances of your nation.

[Hibernion (Ancient)]

Your application is denied, due to certain reactionary stances of your nation.

Could you point those out please?

[Osea 767]

You are pro-life and anti-homosexual. Either of those are enough for me to deny you access to this alliance. Then there are the suspicious stances of being supportive of a free market and of being religious. Those may be explainable, but would require more detail before I'd make a decision on them.

[Zonolia]

Are you sure the beast has not slain you? You are Conservative Socialist...well it is sad to know Socialism can never be taken seriously when it's own member's fail to reconize they have allies... congratulations the Capitalist way has won because we fail to unite.

We offer you a visit to our nation to open your eyes from being narrowed and backwards, your religious views of Socialism distributed us because it is not supposed to be done like that.

Also, sure we could change our system but we CANNOT, we are a Direct/Representative Democracy and The People has voted on how things are ran, are you really Socialist if the people themselves aren't allowed to rule their nation?

[Quirina]

OOC: I'll give a try to be a member, if I may. Thanks.

Full nation name: The Unified Military Socialist Peoples' Victorious State of Viktorika
Population: 2,468,000,000
Desired Membership type (Protected State/Full): Full (it's up to you)
Your present relationship with alliance members: Neutral
National leader's title: Comrade Leader, Supreme Commissar
Type of Political system: Federal parliamentary, constitutional, council-governed
Type of Economic System: Socialist
State ideology (if applicable): Left-wing socialism, Leninism, Marxism, Militarism

Link to Factbook (if applicable): N/A
Current wars?(if any): Only colonial expansions
Military Alliances that you are a member of(if any): UFCN
Role Play Examples (please give at least two examples if possible, along with links to those examples): RP 1, RP 2
Additional Information that you wish to add: Viktorika is far different from Quirina. See the sig.

[Osea 767]

Your views do not change the fact that your system neither counts as socialist or follows its principles. Also, since when did our nation become a dictatorship? You presume much about us. The Communist Party of Yaroslavl is but the leading party of the Supreme Soviet. Our society is democratic, with universal rights for all. As for what your society does, it is no concern of ours. All that matters is that you have failed to establish socialism in your nation and therefore cannot be a part of of this alliance. What your nation decides to do based on that is up to your people.

OOC: Quirina, you are now a member of the Workers International.

[Hibernion (Ancient)]

You are pro-life and anti-homosexual. Either of those are enough for me to deny you access to this alliance. Then there are the suspicious stances of being supportive of a free market and of being religious. Those may be explainable, but would require more detail before I'd make a decision on them.

Well, we think abortion is immoral and being homosexual is immoral. Even though we are socialist, we do not believe in outlawing all freedoms, we are just more generous than most socialists.

[Osea 767]

Socialism isn't about wanting to ban all freedoms. I think you will find that many socialists are actually freedom loving, which is why your nation cannot be a part of this alliance. Each of those stances require the unjust treatment and oppression of innocent people for nonsensical reasons.

[Zonolia]

Your views do not change the fact that your system neither counts as socialist or follows its principles. Also, since when did our nation become a dictatorship? You presume much about us. The Communist Party of Yaroslavl is but the leading party of the Supreme Soviet. Our society is democratic, with universal rights for all. As for what your society does, it is no concern of ours. All that matters is that you have failed to establish socialism in your nation and therefore cannot be a part of of this alliance. What your nation decides to do based on that is up to your people.

OOC: Quirina, you are now a member of the Workers International.

We have established Socialism, so apparently you now represent all members of this alliance? Why not a fair trial of enterence, let the working class decide.

[Osea 767]

I doubt any true socialist would agree. But you may put your case forward to any member you wish. The member list on the front page has links to the nation pages of all the members, so it would be easy for you to do so.

[YellowApple]

OOC: All this talk about who is the true socialist makes me wonder if YellowApple, Inc. is more socialist that I previously thought. After all, the citizens of YellowApple do own one share each of YellowApple, Inc... out of a 9/16 total proportion (with 4/16 belonging to the Administrative Council and the last 3/16 going to the Administrator him/herself). Not fully equal between the citizens and the incumbent government, but it's an improvement from the prior system of the Administrator having the 9/16 and the remaining 7/16 going to the citizens, and it means that the citizens own the means of production, even if via a capitalist method.

Of course, there are some other major differences, like no restrictions on free enterprise (YellowApple, Inc. allows competitors against itself within its own borders, though usually they become subsidiaries), no political parties whatsoever (politicians run as individuals exclusively, rather than as representatives of a specific ideology; though one may campaign under such a banner, most YellowApplans do not), and there are some aspects of YellowApplan law and culture which probably don't jive well with members here (abortion illegal upon the embryo becoming a fetus being the main one, since being against infanticide is apparently unsocialist ). Hence why I'm happily an observer

[Quirina]

Thanks for admitting me in the Alliance, despite of calling me Quirina. But hey, you can call me in two names, either Quirina or Viktorika, but I prefer to be called Viktorika, since he was the one who applied actually.

[Vassel]

Full nation name:he Northern Republic of Vassel
Population:1.02 billion
Desired Membership type (Protected State/Full): protected state
Your present relationship with alliance members: i don't know them
National leader's title:Prime Minister Fredrik the Humble
Type of Political system:republic
Type of Economic System:socialism
State ideology (if applicable):I think I stated it above

Link to Factbook (if applicable):still writing it
Current wars?(if any):Civil War
Military Alliances that you are a member of(if any):FFSO,Alliance of Socialist Comrades
Role Play Examples (please give at least two examples if possible, along with links to those examples): Mafia RP,Big Smashup Party!
Additional Information that you wish to add:I support capital punishment