Medieval Tech OOC thread (Spaces available!)

[The Rohirrim 1]

Well, Dravska's messengers arrived on August 1st, the message was sent out. The riders can ride across Rohan easily in the time between that morning and august 2nd, Rohans not especially large and the horses are more than capable of riding straight across the Riddermark in a day.

As for the Ride from Aoras to Minas Logos, I wasn't aware that the distance was 1,000 Klicks. Also, bearing in mind that Dravska's messengers rode from Logos to Aoras in three days.

[Frozopia]

The problem is Dravkany's messenger didn't arrive on August the 1st. From what I've gathered he despatched the messenger when I started invading Dravkany: The 26th of July (his one to NBS was actually sooner, but thats besides the point). Now lets say that messenger took two weeks to get to Rohan. I think thats reasonable.

So that messenger doesn't arrive until the 9th of August? From then you prepare your army to ride what is probably a 2 month journey to Dravkany for a sizeable force.

This is why I was saying I didn't expect to see you this season. Anyone else feel free to comment.

[The New British Shores]

Just putting in my two pennies here

It occurs to me that we need to work out a series of timing it would take differnt types of troop movements to get to one place.

Derson To Rohan
Dravskany to Angermanland

To name just a few examples. Especially as during the raid all our forces seemed to be traveling at warp speed. Now i'd reckon my forces could be in Dravskany in about two weeks if they set of immediatly.

[Frozopia]

The raiding was fine really. It was just boarder actions with tiny forces so the distances were relatively small.

[Manitheren]

Question: The New British Shores and The Rohirrim 1 are the same person right? I just noticed and wondered if that was something allowed or not? I'm still getting use to the NationStates slang/rules.

[Isurioth]

Okay, I have started a new thread that will showcase the building of my capital. Link

It is set several hundred years in the past. The first post is just an intro and is set 1400 YA. Subsequent posts will be set a few decades later. Anyone who would like to participate may, but you will be slaves.

Now, there are two ways this could be done. One will be set at the construction site and will focus on politics. The other way would be focused on a resource collection site such as a marble quarry and could be more open ended.

Any advice anyone would like to offer is much appreciated. This is similar to Dashret's fortress thread, save that this already happened. Oh, and the Hallowed Spire referenced in the thread will be very very tall. Going by the height of the island, the height of the column of rock it is carved from, and the tower I am building on top of it it will be on the order of 5080 ft. above sea level at the top and the spire itself will be 4600 ft. high.

Now, this is entirely possible. It will take several days to get to the top, and it will take hundreds of years to carve the spire out of the column and then to built the tower on top of it. Thus the starting date. I told you I liked over the top. This city is the last great construction project of the Orithenian empire. This city is the last straw the finally caused the empire to fall.

As such I want to get something nice out of it. You know, make it a fair trade .

Edit: I did some calcs. Getting to the top would take 2.17 hours if you did nothing but walk up stairs with average steepness. This is of course an ideal estimate as you would have to stop and rest and there are flat areas between staircases.

[Angermanland]

first off, the raid? the entire lead up was Skipped. those were mercenaries. they didn't START in Angermanland. they'd been all over the place and, for the purpose of that event, Started in Frozopia. no one's forces were Supposed to be traveling at warp speed. the raids were a bit fuzzy on exact distances involved though.

also, people? there's a SCALE on the continent map. use it to find distances. add 50 to 100 percent for the fact that roads are Never straight as the crow flies [and the stupidly large number of mountains]. take into account how freaking SLOW even a cavalry army is. that's how long it's gonna take y ou to get from A to B. messengers with remounts and nothing better to do [or better yet, a courier relay where the riders change out as well as the horses] will go a lot faster, but there's still a limit.

Question: The New British Shores and The Rohirrim 1 are the same person right? I just noticed and wondered if that was something allowed or not? I'm still getting use to the NationStates slang/rules.

so far as Nationstates is concerned, you're allowed as many nations as you like [unless this was changed] but only one can join the World Assembly.

so far as RPs go, it's not disallowed, but it's not exactly encouraged. lots of people make puppet nations for certain RPs to reduce confusion by having the poster's name and the RP entity's name match up, for example. having two hypothetically separate nations in the game actually be the same person, without disclosing it, would be... bad form, at best. that said, if one can actually play them as separate nations effectively, it could be interesting.


finally, Orth, didn't we already do a big conversation about impossibly tall buildings in this thread? specifically in reference to, admittedly, Gondor based fortress cities, but the discussion is applicable here too. not sure if it affects what you're doing because i Don't run the numbers, but it may be significant.

[Dashret]

We had a huge argument over his other buildings, such as the fact that the average building in his country is as tall as the great pyramid.

Further, such a structure would be impossible to construct from stone. Hell, the tallest building on earth NOW is only half that tall. I don't care if it takes a hundred years to build. I don't care how long it takes to get to the top. It's not possible. The logistics alone kill the project. There is no such thing as a natural stone column that tall either, unless you plan to carve one out of a mountain, which would be impractical to the point of impossibility.

If this is allowed, then this RP has clearly departed from any sense of realism. I may as well reincarnate the Scorpion King and overrun the world with Anubis soldiers.

I also question the geography. 700 foot sheer cliffs around an entire island? Nuh-uh. Granite does not work that way. We've got some questionable geography, I admit, but this is just silly. The sort of event that would be required to form that sort of island on that scale is probably even more massively improbable than an ancient society assembling the workforce required to build a mile high tower out of stone.

I may have put this a bit strongly, but my inner historian is currently screaming and punching the inside of my brain.

[Manitheren]

We had a huge argument over his other buildings, such as the fact that the average building in his country is as tall as the great pyramid.

Further, such a structure would be impossible to construct from stone. Hell, the tallest building on earth NOW is only half that tall. I don't care if it takes a hundred years to build. I don't care how long it takes to get to the top. It's not possible. The logistics alone kill the project. There is no such thing as a natural stone column that tall either, unless you plan to carve one out of a mountain, which would be impractical to the point of impossibility.

If this is allowed, then this RP has clearly departed from any sense of realism. I may as well reincarnate the Scorpion King and overrun the world with Anubis soldiers.

I also question the geography. 700 foot sheer cliffs around an entire island? Nuh-uh. Granite does not work that way. We've got some questionable geography, I admit, but this is just silly. The sort of event that would be required to form that sort of island on that scale is probably even more massively improbable than an ancient society assembling the workforce required to build a mile high tower out of stone.

I may have put this a bit strongly, but my inner historian is currently screaming and punching the inside of my brain.

I would have to agree. 700 ft, as far as I am aware, is not found on any coastline. Even Pointe du Hoc, the massive concrete cliff-top gun emplacement that was the target of the 2nd Ranger Battalion on D-Day (that sheer cliff that they had to use specialized grappling hooks to climb it with) was only 100 ft.

[Angermanland]

on a more ... pleasant...note:

can i get some comments on the logic behind my town and city designs from the people who are somewhat knowledgeable about such things?

.... i keep meaning to update my fact book, and failing to get orginised enough to do it, but i think between one of my more recent posts [in the last two pages] and the University thread [linked on the first page] there's a reasonable amount of information about it?

if that's not enough i can explain again from the beginning, i suppose. [i fill in more details every time someone asks a question i hadn't thought about before, of course ]

[Dashret]

I would have to agree. 700 ft, as far as I am aware, is not found on any coastline. Even Pointe du Hoc, the massive concrete cliff-top gun emplacement that was the target of the 2nd Ranger Battalion on D-Day (that sheer cliff that they had to use specialized grappling hooks to climb it with) was only 100 ft.

700ft plus cliffs DO exist, but they a) generally aren't sheer and b) are typically the result of a mountain/volcano splitting and dropping off the side of an island, or through erosion, or some combination of those.

For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Enniberg

What Isuroth is going for would be like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slieve_League

Only around all of Ireland.

That would basically require an island to form, completely out of rock, and then all four sides drop off. Vertically. They certainly don't gleam either, unless Orth has a corps of janitors that go around removing the vegetation from all his cliffs every day for the last few thousand years.

You also certainly wouldn't want to build anything large on such cliff edges. They're not exactly the most stable places and even in modern times VERY careful prospecting of a cliff is required before any construction can begin near one. Look up all the stuff they went through to build that skywalk over the grand canyon.

[Frozopia]

Question: The New British Shores and The Rohirrim 1 are the same person right? I just noticed and wondered if that was something allowed or not? I'm still getting use to the NationStates slang/rules.

As far as I'm aware they are not.

[The New British Shores]

We're friends, and we often post on each others computers,

That's as far as any conflict on interest goes.

[The Four Heatons]

Hello There
If there are any Places still open I'd like to sign up.
I've already got a factbook drawn up:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20611

[Isurioth]

You know I wouldn't have posted those numbers unless I had done some research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trango_Towers

There, you have not one but four natural columns of rock that are in fact twice as tall as the one I posited. I am in fact carving the tower out of a mountain. A building of stone that high couldn't possible exist, the compression rate of stone means that were I to build a building in the traditional sense then the foundations would crumble under the weight of the rest of the building. That and the fact that it would require me to deconstruct have the stupid island to get enough stone.

I might point to the temple of Ramses II, Ellora Caves in India, or those fascinating Native American cliff dwellings to suggest that I could in fact carve a building a few rooms deep into a giant rock. The catch: It will still be a giant rock. The rock can support itself a building of that height couldn't possible do so. The most I am doing in terms of giant structures is building a very very tall tower on top of the rock which is designed in such a way as to look like it is continuous from the ground.

As for the impossibility of geography. Dashret, the temperature differential at your boarder is such that people crossing it in anything less then several hours to a day could very likely suffer from cold shock or heat stroke. Still might happen anyway. Especially during winter when it goes from below freezing to fry an egg on the ground hot in the space of some 5 miles. This doesn't event take the winds into consideration which should turn everything around you into more desert because the rain clouds could never get close.

Well we are at it, I have nearly finished everyone's border mountain ranges. Forget Dashret, nearly every nation should have at least some desert due to the massive rain shadows these things should be causing. Oh, and if I couldn't use magic to change rainfall and average temperature through the program then Frozopia should have been the Himalayas to get their average temperature if you have the one you do.It should not snow in those latitudes.
[/rant]

The story we are going with for why everybody has their mountains requires giant asteroids and a lot of very board wizards . I am certain a collection of islands caused by a tectonic plate shattering makes as much sense. Oh wait, that is the continent you reside upon. Mine just shattered more.

The usable area I am creating actually has less volume then the Great pyramid. It is just you know...usable. As for the average height of buildings, that was a mistake in my wording. There are some buildings of comparable height to the great church spires, but those spires are about as useful for everyday life as the church ones are. The average height of the buildings in my capital city is about eight stories. Even then the tops are much smaller then the bottoms and everything is infested with arches and buttresses (both flying and non).

What happened historically is something like this:

Angermanland: "...and it would probably have to be one of those cities where the ruler has gone 'I want a capital city that is more awesome than anything else. I want my capital THERE *stabs finger on map*. therefore it shall be built! Hire an architect!"

[Dashret]

The formation you linked to there is in Pakistan, not on an island, and, further, is part of a range of mountains, not an island. It's part of the Himalayas. You know, biggest mountain range on Earth? Similar formations would not occur on an island.

A mountain can support itself due to its huge base. If you remove that, hollow it out and make it into a tower, you're removing the thing that's keeping it from collapsing. No. Simply not carving rock into smaller chunks does not magically enhance it's ability to withstand pressure and, even if it did, you've reduced the structures footprint, increasing it's ground pressure massively and caused it to shoot right through the earth's crust into the mantle. That is hyperbole, by the way. If you go into a mountain and remove all of the inside bits, it's going to fall in on itself. The bottom will crack. Just because it's not made of blocks does not remove the limitations on what the stone can support.

The reason the great pyramid doesn't collapse on itself is BECAUSE most of it's area is 'unusable'. Do you KNOW the massive engineering challenge it was just to fit the chambers that are in the pyramids where they are? The Egyptians tried and failed several times before they got it right.

Abu Simbel, the Buddhist Caves and cliff dwellings (those that were carved from rock) also have one thing in common, they're not a mile tall. Abu Simbel also, you will note, left much of the hill it was built into intact.

No. I will repeat again. No. You cannot build a tower of just plain old rock much higher than about 50m. And that's with 'modern' (medieval) methods. Once again, I will say, no structure should be more than ~150 meters high, that's using mixed construction materials and advanced architecture. And with supporting structure around it.

I will further, once again, raise the logistical issues. Note the size of those rocks that you linked to. Note that we do not have access to black powder. You plan to carve those with...hand tools? Mount Rushmore took 14 years to make, and that was with explosives. Modern explosives. Not black powder.

I'll suggest some reading for you as well, by the way:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque

[Oda noh Nobunaga]

Hey Frozopia & Angermandland, long time no see! I want in on this! Give me this tract of land ---> LINK. I'll have a factbook up soon.

Sidenote: Wow the forums is...bright...now. My eyes are hurting.

[Fiduses and Diuses]

Hey Terror Incognitia want to do a thread together?
Missionaries trying to convert the heathen horsemen/sea raiders would work.
Either of us trying to establish a trade mission in a major settlement.
A notorious outlaw crossing into our lands or vice versa.
I'm open to most anything...

[Isurioth]

Dashret, I am tempted to make the continent we live on realistic. In that case, yes I would not have my giant rock column. You would have no desert, no one would have their mountains, or their rivers, or just about anything the way they want it. If I recall correctly, either you in fact live in an area with about the same climate as France, or everyone has a climate equivalent to that of North Africa.

What I am doing is just as unrealistic as everyone else. At least my climate makes sense.

I am not taking out the inside of the stupid column. I am leaving most of the rock there. I am carving a continuous city all around the stupid thing to no more then 20 feet deep into it.

The amount of material I am removing from the exterior of the rock is less then 5% of its total mass. Heck, its probably less then 2%. This is less a tower then a city built on a very steep hill. It just looks like it is a building.

Might I remind you that the stones for the pyramids were primarily removed from the quarries through the use of hard rocks? They hit rocks that were harder then the native stone against it until they had the general shape of a giant stone block.

[Angermanland]

Hey Frozopia & Angermandland, long time no see! I want in on this! Give me this tract of land ---> LINK. I'll have a factbook up soon.

Sidenote: Wow the forums is...bright...now. My eyes are hurting.

wow. yeah. not seen you in quite some time.

probably pretty much yours if no one [active] has a claim on it. but Frozo tracks that stuff, not me.

make up a fact book anyway. if that space i s taken we can find another one somewhere on the world map. it's not exactly small.



on [several] different note[s]:

I guess no one has anything to say about my cities.

what happened to the discussion on filling in some historic battles?

what happened to fixing posts in the various threads I'm involved in?

where did the Romulan Republic get to?

stop worrying so much about the feasibility of the geography, as Orth noted above, it's horribly broken anyway

clarity of descriptions is your friend

if in doubt, understate the awesome then elaborate on details later

ooc hostility helps no one, even if it is sometimes unavoidable. [yes, i know, i sometimes do this too]

newbies need teaching, those who don't learn, however, are made of fail.

i have run out of notes.

[Frozopia]

Hey Frozopia & Angermandland, long time no see! I want in on this! Give me this tract of land ---> LINK. I'll have a factbook up soon.

Sidenote: Wow the forums is...bright...now. My eyes are hurting.

Thrashia! It would be awesome to get you onboard.

Hello There
If there are any Places still open I'd like to sign up.
I've already got a factbook drawn up:
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20611

Seems reasonable from what I've seen (note im a little drunk right now). Find a claim, if you can be a splinter nation of malistance that would be perfect (read up on his history. I'm sure it wouldnt be difficult to fit you in there). Problem is we are running out of land .

[Oda noh Nobunaga]

I had a factbook but the forums crashed...

No one should have claim to that island, since I just added it by editing the map.

[Oda noh Nobunaga]

Here is a start to my factbook. --->Link.

Frozopia, actually this is Mike, a friend of Thrashia's. He gave me the account after I lost my old one, when I was known as Parlim way back when. He mentioned to me in passing when I caught him at the pub that he was too busy to do much these days and told me about the RP. I mentioned interest so he gave me an old account of his, aka Oda. But I've gone back and read all the old PT rps, back when Thrashia was known as the "Han Empire"? That was a pretty good rp from the read-through I gave it.

[Dashret]

Nobody else cares, so whatever. I will, however, ONCE AGAIN, point you, Orth, to the 'tu quoque' page. 'Everybody else is doing it' is not a valid argument.

[Isurioth]

Very well then Dashret. You win. No giant tower. However, so as to avoid the two wrongs don't make a right aspect of Tu quoque (no I didn't have to go to Wikipedia) I will remove both wrongs.

Congratulations. Angermanland is the only one who gets to keep their geography. Dashret is not a desert. In fact, it has the same climate as Florida. As does Frozopia. The islands near the continent have the same climate as Crete. The people in the Northern part of the continent have a climate equivalent to Germany or New Endland depending on what side of the continent they are on. Oh, and Rohan can't exist unless instead of Horses they ride mountain goats.

Everyone in the middle of the continent also lives in the mountains. Which means your country is half mountains. I hope you don't freeze to death in winter wearing your skirts. No come to thing of it... best not to finish that thought.

I am not saying the criticism is invalid because you all do it. (You really all do. Angermanland considered what his weather should be like so he gets to keep his. I might have missed some people, but the mountains were screwing everything up.) I am saying that if no one is going to play by the rules then I have no reason to. I am not moral enough to do the right thing in an online RP when no one else is.

Edit: I did take a look at the link you posted. Just to show that I am not the only one who can appeal to Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_pari_delicto
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unclean_hands
I prefer the more common, "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones."