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Reduce Gifting Fee for Cards from 100% to 20%

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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:54 pm

Giovanni argument is fair.
its truth that big farmers will profit from these changes.
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Benevolent 1
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Founded: Dec 04, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benevolent 1 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:14 pm

Giovanniland wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:Let's have WA nations vote in a poll on this. Here you go...

https://www.nationstates.net/page=poll/p=176693

/notamod, but admins have stated before that decisions on game changes are made through compelling arguments and not polls. Sure, the choice of making it WA only prevents the puppet spam problem, but the other part of the fact still stands.

Anyways, strongly opposed. The gift tax is there for a reason, to make those who bypass the auction system pay for it, which is fair. Gifting gives you the ability of giving any nation with deck space any card, provided you can pay the tax. It's only fair to have this tax in exchange for a secure trade without the chance of having the bank or the card sniped - essentially I concur with One Small Island on this.

Casual players, like Galiantus said, own one or two nations and don't really focus on cards; it's not a casual player anymore if the puppets are there only to funnel cards to the main nation. And once someone reaches that point, the resources are there for those who want it: card guides, scripts, the Discord server marketplace with many experienced players that can offer advice. Soon they are managing a significant farm capable of generating a fair amount of bank, and gifting taxes aren't really the issue anymore. Even if one doesn't have a lot of time to put into card farming, doing so every now and then is still a nice boost for their bank.

The only effective change that would arise is that big farmers would have even less of a money sink. Gifting and capacity are the two only ways one can give bank to the game, and you're proposing to reduce one of these two money sinks, which would lead farmers to accumulate even more bank. And I say this as a big farmer that would profit from this, but I choose not to, and instead cast my opinion against this proposal.


Poll voter discouragement? Hey, the poll might be faked. But no horde of farm puppets is allowed to cast votes. WA voters only! Polls can be parts of compelling arguments. No doubt polls alone don't stand the test.

No one is asking for the removal of the gift tax. This is untrue. Only a more realistic fee which is in line with the current needs of the game. Why should gifting nations pay such a high price for it? Who is benefiting from that and why do you insist that is fair? I see no solid ground to your argument thus far.

Remember, card farms are likely to buy the farm, i.e. fade away, if Fris' Yahtzee Game becomes the method of drawing cards. It's time consuming by design. Scripting for it likely to be verboden. There is no guarantee of perpetual card farming at this point. As a result, no defensive argument is born there either.

The auction could use some better competition at this point bc small deck/bank players need an improved gifting option. This proposal primarily makes the gifting option better for them by denying the auctioneer a few cards. That's a win-win.
Last edited by Benevolent 1 on Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Trivalve
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Postby Trivalve » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:25 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:No one is asking for the removal of the gift tax. This is untrue. Only a more realistic fee which is in line with the current needs of the game. Why should gifting nations pay such a high price for it? Who is benefiting from that and why do you insist that is fair? I see no solid ground to your argument thus far.

This argument can be said for the price of gifting something from the nationstates store. The price is there to stop people from abusing it. If there was no price for gifting postmaster, not only would nationstates not earn money but people would constantly just give out postmasters to everyone which would just ruin the game play. Same with the cards, the price prevents any abuse of gifting. If you want to card farm then you got to work for it. I see nothing wrong with the current price of gifting.
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Fauzjhia
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Postby Fauzjhia » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:31 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:No one is asking for the removal of the gift tax. This is untrue. Only a more realistic fee which is in line with the current needs of the game. Why should gifting nations pay such a high price for it? Who is benefiting from that and why do you insist that is fair? I see no solid ground to your argument thus far.

big farmer will always win from what ever change you present to the game. yes if you reduce the gifting cost, big farmers will win, but I think what they win, is not that much, as bank does not have much values to them. And, Maybe 20% is a bit much ...

Benevolent 1 wrote:Remember, card farms are likely to buy the farm, i.e. fade away, if Fris' Yahtzee Game becomes the method of drawing cards. It's time consuming by design. Scripting for it likely to be verboden. There is no guarantee of perpetual card farming at this point. As a result, no defensive argument is born there either.


you these solutions with wrong eyes, people will simply farm with 1 nation and use others as puppets storage for cards they lack. there will be perpetual card farming. Or just use Firefox containers to login in multiple nations at the same time. these solutions are just terrible, and I explained why multiple times.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:38 pm

Trivalve wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:No one is asking for the removal of the gift tax. This is untrue. Only a more realistic fee which is in line with the current needs of the game. Why should gifting nations pay such a high price for it? Who is benefiting from that and why do you insist that is fair? I see no solid ground to your argument thus far.

This argument can be said for the price of gifting something from the nationstates store. The price is there to stop people from abusing it. If there was no price for gifting postmaster, not only would nationstates not earn money but people would constantly just give out postmasters to everyone which would just ruin the game play. Same with the cards, the price prevents any abuse of gifting. If you want to card farm then you got to work for it. I see nothing wrong with the current price of gifting.

By that logic, there should be a fee for using the auction bc people are abusing the auction by inflating worthless cards to enhance their DV.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ben ... id=1566222

I believe the gifting fee reduction proposal furthers enhances this scheme.

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Trivalve
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Postby Trivalve » Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:47 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:
Trivalve wrote:This argument can be said for the price of gifting something from the nationstates store. The price is there to stop people from abusing it. If there was no price for gifting postmaster, not only would nationstates not earn money but people would constantly just give out postmasters to everyone which would just ruin the game play. Same with the cards, the price prevents any abuse of gifting. If you want to card farm then you got to work for it. I see nothing wrong with the current price of gifting.

By that logic, there should be a fee for using the auction bc people are abusing the auction by inflating worthless cards to enhance their DV.

https://www.nationstates.net/nation=ben ... id=1566222

I believe the gifting fee reduction proposal furthers enhances this scheme.

I don't think a fee would be a good idea. The fee would only effect auction card farming not card farming with issue answering
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Vylixan
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Postby Vylixan » Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:40 am

This will only benefit the large players that gift cards a lot, and not the casual players that rarely ever gift cards.

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Giovanniland
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Founded: Aug 10, 2019
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Giovanniland » Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:10 am

Benevolent 1 wrote:
Giovanniland wrote:/notamod, but admins have stated before that decisions on game changes are made through compelling arguments and not polls. Sure, the choice of making it WA only prevents the puppet spam problem, but the other part of the fact still stands.

Anyways, strongly opposed. The gift tax is there for a reason, to make those who bypass the auction system pay for it, which is fair. Gifting gives you the ability of giving any nation with deck space any card, provided you can pay the tax. It's only fair to have this tax in exchange for a secure trade without the chance of having the bank or the card sniped - essentially I concur with One Small Island on this.

Casual players, like Galiantus said, own one or two nations and don't really focus on cards; it's not a casual player anymore if the puppets are there only to funnel cards to the main nation. And once someone reaches that point, the resources are there for those who want it: card guides, scripts, the Discord server marketplace with many experienced players that can offer advice. Soon they are managing a significant farm capable of generating a fair amount of bank, and gifting taxes aren't really the issue anymore. Even if one doesn't have a lot of time to put into card farming, doing so every now and then is still a nice boost for their bank.

The only effective change that would arise is that big farmers would have even less of a money sink. Gifting and capacity are the two only ways one can give bank to the game, and you're proposing to reduce one of these two money sinks, which would lead farmers to accumulate even more bank. And I say this as a big farmer that would profit from this, but I choose not to, and instead cast my opinion against this proposal.


Poll voter discouragement? Hey, the poll might be faked. But no horde of farm puppets is allowed to cast votes. WA voters only! Polls can be parts of compelling arguments. No doubt polls alone don't stand the test.

I never tried to discourage anyone to vote, just wanted to point you out to a staff post that says polls don't have any weight on decisions so you would know.

Benevolent 1 wrote:No one is asking for the removal of the gift tax. This is untrue. Only a more realistic fee which is in line with the current needs of the game. Why should gifting nations pay such a high price for it? Who is benefiting from that and why do you insist that is fair? I see no solid ground to your argument thus far.

I didn't say either that you were proposing to remove the tax, just to reduce it as the title says. And people have explained multiple times in this thread that the gifting tax is a fee one has to pay to avoid the risk of the card or bank being stolen in an auction. Making the gifting fee so low will discourage auctions - the main aspect of a free market - and possibly bring upon us a decline of the card game.

Benevolent 1 wrote:Remember, card farms are likely to buy the farm, i.e. fade away, if Fris' Yahtzee Game becomes the method of drawing cards. It's time consuming by design. Scripting for it likely to be verboden. There is no guarantee of perpetual card farming at this point. As a result, no defensive argument is born there either.

That is true, but looking at the other side of the coin, less card farms also means less gifting, as there's an incentive to use a single nation to play the Yahtzee game and only win cards there. This renders most gift trades obsolete, and thus the main cause behind this proposal.

Benevolent 1 wrote:The auction could use some better competition at this point bc small deck/bank players need an improved gifting option. This proposal primarily makes the gifting option better for them by denying the auctioneer a few cards. That's a win-win.

It's a loss for the game, though, as the amount of auctions will decline. And it will hardly benefit casual players as you insist to believe.
Last edited by Giovanniland on Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
Giovanniland
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Benevolent 1
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Benevolent 1 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:21 am

Giovanniland wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:
Poll voter discouragement? Hey, the poll might be faked. But no horde of farm puppets is allowed to cast votes. WA voters only! Polls can be parts of compelling arguments. No doubt polls alone don't stand the test.

I never tried to discourage anyone to vote, just wanted to point you out to a staff post that says polls don't have any weight on decisions so you would know.

Benevolent 1 wrote:No one is asking for the removal of the gift tax. This is untrue. Only a more realistic fee which is in line with the current needs of the game. Why should gifting nations pay such a high price for it? Who is benefiting from that and why do you insist that is fair? I see no solid ground to your argument thus far.

I didn't say either that you were proposing to remove the tax, just to reduce it as the title says. And people have explained multiple times in this thread that the gifting tax is a fee one has to pay to avoid the risk of the card or bank being stolen in an auction. Making the gifting fee so low will discourage auctions - the main aspect of a free market - and possibly bring upon us a decline of the card game.

Benevolent 1 wrote:Remember, card farms are likely to buy the farm, i.e. fade away, if Fris' Yahtzee Game becomes the method of drawing cards. It's time consuming by design. Scripting for it likely to be verboden. There is no guarantee of perpetual card farming at this point. As a result, no defensive argument is born there either.

That is true, but looking at the other side of the coin, less card farms also means less gifting, as there's an incentive to use a single nation to play the Yahtzee game and only win cards there. This renders most gift trades obsolete, and thus the main cause behind this proposal.

Benevolent 1 wrote:The auction could use some better competition at this point bc small deck/bank players need an improved gifting option. This proposal primarily makes the gifting option better for them by denying the auctioneer a few cards. That's a win-win.

It's a loss for the game, though, as the amount of auctions will decline. And it will hardly benefit casual players as you insist to believe.


What you'd inferred concerning the poll and "removal of gifting fee" needed to be addressed. Glad to see you've clarified your earlier statements.

We don't want gift exchanges to become obsolete, that's exactly why I've put forth this proposal.

Interestingly, you have provided another reason to support lowering the gifting fee. There is no doubt that gifting exposes the networks of card farming puppet masters. These people won't be gifting as it provides linkage between themselves and their numerous farms. The auction serves them as a free laundromat. It obliterates the point of origin of their cards. Additionally, destruction of this information has value and should come at a cost. Auction fees would serve that purpose.

In summation, a lowered gift fee won't be helping any remaining farmers in S3. These players will continue to prefer eradicating the evidences of their card farms. As a result, the gifting fee is already obsolete for the vast majority of large card farmers, such as yourself. Lowering the gift fee to 20% mainly enhances the ability of the small deck/bank player (who maintains his deck below deck capacity) to avoid the auction risks discussed earlier. Thereby, the reduced gift fee is a tool for keeping the cards of casual players cards safe from nefarious bidding practices seen at auction with the additional benefit of helping them in conserving their small banks.

The game has been in decline for well over a year. Many players have abandoned the card game. What you are truly saying is the predatory style of play which has been encouraged by various groups of well heeled players within the game will decline. This result would be a positive development for the over all vitality and future of the game.

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Giovanniland
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Giovanniland » Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:31 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:What you'd inferred concerning the poll and "removal of gifting fee" needed to be addressed. Glad to see you've clarified your earlier statements.

We don't want gift exchanges to become obsolete, that's exactly why I've put forth this proposal.

Interestingly, you have provided another reason to support lowering the gifting fee. There is no doubt that gifting exposes the networks of card farming puppet masters. These people won't be gifting as it provides linkage between themselves and their numerous farms. The auction serves them as a free laundromat. It obliterates the point of origin of their cards. Additionally, destruction of this information has value and should come at a cost. Auction fees would serve that purpose.

In summation, a lowered gift fee won't be helping any remaining farmers in S3. These players will continue to prefer eradicating the evidences of their card farms. As a result, the gifting fee is already obsolete for the vast majority of large card farmers, such as yourself. Lowering the gift fee to 20% mainly enhances the ability of the small deck/bank player (who maintains his deck below deck capacity) to avoid the auction risks discussed earlier. Thereby, the reduced gift fee is a tool for keeping the cards of casual players cards safe from nefarious bidding practices seen at auction with the additional benefit of helping them in conserving their small banks.

The game has been in decline for well over a year. Many players have abandoned the card game. What you are truly saying is the predatory style of play which has been encouraged by various groups of well heeled players within the game will decline. This result would be a positive development for the over all vitality and future of the game.

I'm not sure where you got the argument of farmers "eradicating the evidences of their card farms", because for most people it isn't like that. Firstly, it doesn't really matter whether gifts or auctions are used to move cards from two nations controlled by the same person. If I see the sell history of a card farm and what I see is many cards being funneled to a single nation, either by gifts or trades, it is most likely a puppet. Secondly, there is a puppet spreadsheet linking over 50,000 puppets to their masters, which operates together with a script people can use to easily identify a puppet in an auction. This can be useful to know whether a trade is a bank transfer or a legit sale between two players, for example, and most additions to the spreadsheet were voluntary. Therefore, most farmers in fact do the opposite of eradicating evidence.

As for myself, I do still have to pay the gifting fee when, for example, moving legendaries to a storage puppet so that they can be sold there, and then the bank moved to my main nation. This happens similarly with other big farmers without capacity, such as Koem Kab/Greatest Chernobyl, Mikeswill/MikesHope, Seanat/Grey Iree. What you call "nefarious bidding practices", I call something perfectly normal considering even the official FAQ says that "the auction system is designed to force trading at true market prices, reducing the ability of puppet nations to feed valuable cards to their masters." There's a game incentive to make transferring through auctions hard, forcing players to either take the auction risk or pay a fair fee to use the alternative method. There is no change needed.

And as for the game's decline, I believe one major factor is the extended period of time between seasons, and not that gift fees are too high as you say - in fact, many big farmers have gone inactive, and they can definitely afford gifting fees. The decline I mention would be the reduction of auctions as most trades would move to a cheaper gift system, making the game more boring, since one of the fun things to do in trading cards is to participate in auctions.
Last edited by Giovanniland on Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Giovanniland
Guardian of the West and Minister without Portfolio
Former Speaker of the Hall of Nations of TWP (x3)
Trading Card Collector (#1 for bank, briefly #1 for deck value)
WA Author (SC#364, SC#372, SC#373)

The Kingdom of Giovanniland - Giovannilandian Artwork Ministry - The Collection Collection Thread

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Benevolent 1
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Founded: Dec 04, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Benevolent 1 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:22 pm

Giovanniland wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:What you'd inferred concerning the poll and "removal of gifting fee" needed to be addressed. Glad to see you've clarified your earlier statements.

We don't want gift exchanges to become obsolete, that's exactly why I've put forth this proposal.

Interestingly, you have provided another reason to support lowering the gifting fee. There is no doubt that gifting exposes the networks of card farming puppet masters. These people won't be gifting as it provides linkage between themselves and their numerous farms. The auction serves them as a free laundromat. It obliterates the point of origin of their cards. Additionally, destruction of this information has value and should come at a cost. Auction fees would serve that purpose.

In summation, a lowered gift fee won't be helping any remaining farmers in S3. These players will continue to prefer eradicating the evidences of their card farms. As a result, the gifting fee is already obsolete for the vast majority of large card farmers, such as yourself. Lowering the gift fee to 20% mainly enhances the ability of the small deck/bank player (who maintains his deck below deck capacity) to avoid the auction risks discussed earlier. Thereby, the reduced gift fee is a tool for keeping the cards of casual players cards safe from nefarious bidding practices seen at auction with the additional benefit of helping them in conserving their small banks.

The game has been in decline for well over a year. Many players have abandoned the card game. What you are truly saying is the predatory style of play which has been encouraged by various groups of well heeled players within the game will decline. This result would be a positive development for the over all vitality and future of the game.

I'm not sure where you got the argument of farmers "eradicating the evidences of their card farms", because for most people it isn't like that. Firstly, it doesn't really matter whether gifts or auctions are used to move cards from two nations controlled by the same person. If I see the sell history of a card farm and what I see is many cards being funneled to a single nation, either by gifts or trades, it is most likely a puppet. Secondly, there is a puppet spreadsheet linking over 50,000 puppets to their masters, which operates together with a script people can use to easily identify a puppet in an auction. This can be useful to know whether a trade is a bank transfer or a legit sale between two players, for example, and most additions to the spreadsheet were voluntary. Therefore, most farmers in fact do the opposite of eradicating evidence.

As for myself, I do still have to pay the gifting fee when, for example, moving legendaries to a storage puppet so that they can be sold there, and then the bank moved to my main nation. This happens similarly with other big farmers without capacity, such as Koem Kab/Greatest Chernobyl, Mikeswill/MikesHope, Seanat/Grey Iree. What you call "nefarious bidding practices", I call something perfectly normal considering even the official FAQ says that "the auction system is designed to force trading at true market prices, reducing the ability of puppet nations to feed valuable cards to their masters." There's a game incentive to make transferring through auctions hard, forcing players to either take the auction risk or pay a fair fee to use the alternative method. There is no change needed.

And as for the game's decline, I believe one major factor is the extended period of time between seasons, and not that gift fees are too high as you say - in fact, many big farmers have gone inactive, and they can definitely afford gifting fees. The decline I mention would be the reduction of auctions as most trades would move to a cheaper gift system, making the game more boring, since one of the fun things to do in trading cards is to participate in auctions.


It's widely known most farmers prefer keeping their numerous card farms disconnected from their main. It's evident when searching their buys and sells. That's not the point. All the stuff players who think, drink, breathe and eat cards everyday do is mostly immaterial to the overall question. There are many differing styles of play involved. Most card game players are of the small deck/bank variety and we've lost the majority of them. The gifting fee reduction is a good policy for that large demographic in player style. Most of the card farmers won't use the gifting feature often and won't care.

This official FAQ which you quote is "the auction system is designed to force trading at true market prices, reducing the ability of puppet nations to feed valuable cards to their masters." It does indeed say force trading "at true market prices." But seriously, Gio, how can you in all good faith post this FAQ when the entirety of your game is forcing highly inflated trades through this auction to pump up your main's DV? These trades of yours do not result in any form of true market prices. This is quite disappointing of you, smh. C'mon man!

Look, the balance between the two distribution methods needs to be rectified. And because of the well known "despicable bidding practices" seen at auction, and the auction's ability to override deck capacity, the 100% gifting fee is not a fair fee and should be reduced. This is the best way of recalibrating the dynamic between the two card distribution systems. In all fairness, the many differing styles of play should be better accommodated in S3.

I do agree there needs to be a more regularity the future seasons lengths and I also am of the opinion a card game off-season is in order. However, I think you are missing the boat on the idea of reducing the gifting fee. As for what is boring at auction, constant, unrelenting inflation is boring and has turned many casual players off completely. And also many of the more active players. This game is not all about you or the players that play the game like you do. The game encompasses many differing styles, all of which should be taken into account by the game's developers when re-formatting for Season 3. That's what amounts to fair in my view.
Last edited by Benevolent 1 on Sat Sep 04, 2021 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Galiantus III
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Postby Galiantus III » Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:12 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:It's widely known most farmers prefer keeping their numerous card farms disconnected from their main.

Well that's just blatantly false. Anyone can look at your trades list and see the nations you frequently gift cards with. Want to know where my card farming puppets are? I have 25 here, 60 here, and 10 for R/D purposes here (all their flags look like this). It being "widely known" that farmers prefer to keep their numerous card farms disconnected from their main is projection at best, and denial of reality at worst.

You want to know which players actually try to keep puppets disconnected from their main? Raiders. And for the most part they don't even try, because most of their puppets are used for tag raiding which isn't exactly secretive.

Most of the card farmers won't use the gifting feature often and won't care.

Look at my main and my puppets, and look at Gio's puppets. If you actually take the time to look, you will see that we regularly use the gifting feature. Why? Because card storage is a big problem for us, and we often have cards we don't want to risk at auction.

Look, the balance between the two distribution methods needs to be rectified. And because of the well known "despicable bidding practices" seen at auction, and the auction's ability to override deck capacity, the 100% gifting fee is not a fair fee and should be reduced. This is the best way of recalibrating the dynamic between the two card distribution systems. In all fairness, the many differing styles of play should be better accommodated in S3.

As Gio pointed out, the point of gift fees is to discourage players from using gifting as much as possible, and encourage them to go to auction. Your assets are vulnerable at auction. Having cards go to auction is an equalizer. It increases the chances of people being able to buy cards they want. Lowering the gift fee according to your request will just make it five times easier for players who manage lots of puppets to keep everything organized and ready to go. It means they can save more bank for transfer to their main. And this in turn means more inflation, which is far more harmful to new players than big card farmers.

I do agree there needs to be a more regularity the future seasons lengths and I also am of the opinion a card game off-season is in order. However, I think you are missing the boat on the idea of reducing the gifting fee. As for what is boring at auction, constant, unrelenting inflation is boring and has turned many casual players off completely. And also many of the more active players. This game is not all about you or the players that play the game like you do. The game encompasses many differing styles, all of which should be taken into account by the game's developers when re-formatting for Season 3. That's what amounts to fair in my view.

I don't see how your suggestion helps these problems. If anything it will just make things worse for new and casual players.
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Giovanniland
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Giovanniland » Sat Sep 04, 2021 3:13 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:It's widely known most farmers prefer keeping their numerous card farms disconnected from their main. It's evident when searching their buys and sells. That's not the point. All the stuff players who think, drink, breathe and eat cards everyday do is mostly immaterial to the overall question. There are many differing styles of play involved. Most card game players are of the small deck/bank variety and we've lost the majority of them. The gifting fee reduction is a good policy for that large demographic in player style. Most of the card farmers won't use the gifting feature often and won't care.

If it's "widely known" and "evident", then why does all evidence point to the contrary? I take it you've just ignored what I posted in my previous reply.

And about the rest of your post... nice deflection. Inflation is not the issue at hand here, the gifting fee is, and there is another topic on inflation.

Anyways, I think I've finished stating my point here - and many other farmers also said the same thing, which you don't seem to listen to. Oh well.
Giovanniland
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Former Speaker of the Hall of Nations of TWP (x3)
Trading Card Collector (#1 for bank, briefly #1 for deck value)
WA Author (SC#364, SC#372, SC#373)

The Kingdom of Giovanniland - Giovannilandian Artwork Ministry - The Collection Collection Thread

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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:01 pm

Galiantus III wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:It's widely known most farmers prefer keeping their numerous card farms disconnected from their main.

Well that's just blatantly false. Anyone can look at your trades list and see the nations you frequently gift cards with. Want to know where my card farming puppets are? I have 25 here, 60 here, and 10 for R/D purposes here (all their flags look like this). It being "widely known" that farmers prefer to keep their numerous card farms disconnected from their main is projection at best, and denial of reality at worst.

You want to know which players actually try to keep puppets disconnected from their main? Raiders. And for the most part they don't even try, because most of their puppets are used for tag raiding which isn't exactly secretive.


Well, no. Look at the lack of issues answered with my nations. These haven't been card farms for years and that's been stated often enough for you to realize. And you know what, i don''t give one fat fuck about your farming puppets. If you wanna play show and tell with your nations, do it with those who are interested in it. I am not.

All my gifting has always been on the record for anyone to see. That's why they have buys and sells. I don't have to operate or be led by any of these phony rules you or your discord hive invents about reporting puppets. It's already done. Get this through your head, i didn't sign up to join your hive. I am me. I do me. My motivations are my own. My opinions are mine and I am entitled to them. I don't have to engage with some weird group of players who may be a bit too deep into managing this game for everybody else. Got that?

Galiantus III wrote:As Gio pointed out, the point of gift fees is to discourage players from using gifting as much as possible, and encourage them to go to auction. Your assets are vulnerable at auction. Having cards go to auction is an equalizer. It increases the chances of people being able to buy cards they want. Lowering the gift fee according to your request will just make it five times easier for players who manage lots of puppets to keep everything organized and ready to go. It means they can save more bank for transfer to their main. And this in turn means more inflation, which is far more harmful to new players than big card farmers.


What are you, Gio's little echo in here, here, here? :lol:
Look, i got all that from him already. I disagree with him and others on the fundamentals of the game. It's my prerogative to do so. They current distribution balance serves only the few within the hive and doesn't working well for the many imo. That's my opinion based on how the game has degenerated the last year or more.

I have some faith these obscenely large card farms may biting the dust in S3. You apparently don't. We disagree on the fundamentals of the game and the direction it will go. Once again, get over it. My opinion is different from yours and that hive.
Last edited by Benevolent 1 on Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:19 pm

Giovanniland wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:It's widely known most farmers prefer keeping their numerous card farms disconnected from their main. It's evident when searching their buys and sells. That's not the point. All the stuff players who think, drink, breathe and eat cards everyday do is mostly immaterial to the overall question. There are many differing styles of play involved. Most card game players are of the small deck/bank variety and we've lost the majority of them. The gifting fee reduction is a good policy for that large demographic in player style. Most of the card farmers won't use the gifting feature often and won't care.

If it's "widely known" and "evident", then why does all evidence point to the contrary? I take it you've just ignored what I posted in my previous reply.

And about the rest of your post... nice deflection. Inflation is not the issue at hand here, the gifting fee is, and there is another topic on inflation.

Anyways, I think I've finished stating my point here - and many other farmers also said the same thing, which you don't seem to listen to. Oh well.


You ignored mine, so i kinda returned the favor. Most of your post was subjective interpretations of the game fundamentals which differ from mine. Your facts aren't facts, they are merely interpretations. But nice try.

BTW, I think inflation is germane to the conversation as OP of the thread, once you've inserted the FAQ which mentions "true market value". Especially when in the game itself you constantly strive to obscure "true market value" of worthless cards.
Last edited by Benevolent 1 on Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Galiantus III
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Postby Galiantus III » Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:59 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:I have some faith these obscenely large card farms may biting the dust in S3. You apparently don't. We disagree on the fundamentals of the game and the direction it will go. Once again, get over it. My opinion is different from yours and that hive.

Woah, dude. Hold it right there. You are completely wrong here. I actually support changes to remove card farms. In fact, I have been arguing for ways to regulate card farms for a very, very long time. So cut the crap.

--

But let's get more to the point. Here is the logic that has me confused about your claims this would help new players, and why I think it would harm them:

Casual players don't often gift cards. But big card farmers often do. So the gifting fee matters a lot more to card farmers than casual players. Lowering the gifting fee benefits players with puppets, and raising it hurts them. Therefore, for anyone hoping to level the playing field to help new and casual players, lowering the gifting fee is counterproductive. It would only help big players.

What I find particularly troubling is that you are one of those players at the top. Anyone who has been around for a while understands you would profit from this kind of change. Yet you presented this as if it would help new and casual players. Why is that? Did you think you could trick new players into begging for a proposal that would benefit you at their expense? I would give you the benefit of the doubt and say this is a matter of ignorance, but your experience card farming and gifting cards between your nations proves otherwise.
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Postby Coffin-Breathe » Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:44 pm

I guess, you´re all missing the valid point in this : the ability to gift cards from one nation to another was created and meant as an option for players willing to support some other players collections, not as a way for safe rearrangement of cards from or between puppets; and the fee also has been installed for a reason (since farming puppets are, though technically legal, nevertheless an abusement of the system and therefore not wanted ), which is to discourage/partially prevent exactly such "rearrangements".

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Postby Fauzjhia » Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:25 pm

Coffin-Breathe wrote:I guess, you´re all missing the valid point in this : the ability to gift cards from one nation to another was created and meant as an option for players willing to support some other players collections, not as a way for safe rearrangement of cards from or between puppets; and the fee also has been installed for a reason (since farming puppets are, though technically legal, nevertheless an abusement of the system and therefore not wanted ), which is to discourage/partially prevent exactly such "rearrangements".


it does not prevent it.
more farmers do not care about their puppets stats or their puppets policies are all.
they won't go through the trouble I went through to make polygamy legal in atheists nations
they don't care about their puppets bank, those exist as card storage or to fuel the important nations.

Lowering the gift fee by 50% will not change a thing to the game. Farmers will have a bit more money, but chance are that they will not even see it.

Edit : I'Ll be an hypocryte and admit, its for TRR card program I am for that change.
Last edited by Fauzjhia on Sat Sep 04, 2021 11:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:21 am

Galiantus III wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:I have some faith these obscenely large card farms may biting the dust in S3. You apparently don't. We disagree on the fundamentals of the game and the direction it will go. Once again, get over it. My opinion is different from yours and that hive.


What I find particularly troubling is that you are one of those players at the top. Anyone who has been around for a while understands you would profit from this kind of change. Yet you presented this as if it would help new and casual players. Why is that? Did you think you could trick new players into begging for a proposal that would benefit you at their expense? I would give you the benefit of the doubt and say this is a matter of ignorance, but your experience card farming and gifting cards between your nations proves otherwise.


You misunderstand the situation as it developed. I'm near the top mostly due to early activity in S1 when good cards were plentiful. I've done very little in S2. I have morphed into a casual player, more interested in my puppets card collections. What you perceive as a Benevolent card farms isn't accurate, they were originated as a collection of regions in 2015 which is why they are all rare cards. Take a look at the activity of these nations. I was fortunate enough when the game started to be in the right spot, having the Benevolent Empire in April 2018. So i drew cards in an April Fools game. It was very addictive. I went back to it in December 2018 but eventually grew tired of the tactics the still obsessed players use at auction. Some of my bank is from dropping cards on those who've dropped cards on me. Additionally I've never duplicated any cards using TCALS pull events. Game wasn't designed for that.

Galiantus III wrote:
But let's get more to the point. Here is the logic that has me confused about your claims this would help new players, and why I think it would harm them:

Casual players don't often gift cards. But big card farmers often do. So the gifting fee matters a lot more to card farmers than casual players. Lowering the gifting fee benefits players with puppets, and raising it hurts them. Therefore, for anyone hoping to level the playing field to help new and casual players, lowering the gifting fee is counterproductive. It would only help big players.


Mostly everything helps the big players at the small time players' expense. However, that's not an argument, it's only what is wrong.

Somehow you keep forgetting big and medium sized card farmers send cards to a main to boost DV. The main is subject to deck capacity limits. These farmers can't gift to their main very much without an extremely expensive increase in deck capacity. They will not pay for the capacity increase since it isn't cost effective. That's bc their main contains a ridiculous number of cards. These farmers primarily move their cards inside their main deck using the auction. Gifting is rarely an option. This is where your entire argument about how big card farmers will benefit from a reduced gifting fee crumbles to pieces.

Galiantus III wrote:Woah, dude. Hold it right there.

Glad to!
Now I'll hold it over here...

The reduced gifting fee WILL help the the smaller deck/bank casual player and the small to medium deck card collections as intended. It will not be of much use for big card farmers other than to build small collections inside their puppets which is a better use of a puppet. Most card collections will grow to a point, then remain stagnant. Not a problem area.
Last edited by Benevolent 1 on Sun Sep 05, 2021 8:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby ENZONAR » Thu Sep 16, 2021 5:50 am

All new players could just junk useless cards. That's how I got started. The only thing this will benefit is big game card farmers like Koem Kab and Mikeswill to transfer large amounts of cards out of puppet's.
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:05 am

ENZONAR wrote:All new players could just junk useless cards. That's how I got started. The only thing this will benefit is big game card farmers like Koem Kab and Mikeswill to transfer large amounts of cards out of puppet's.

Big and medium sized card farmers send cards to a main to boost DV. The main is subject to deck capacity limits which they have reached or exceeded.. These farmers can't gift to their main very much without an extremely expensive increase in deck capacity. They will not pay for the capacity increase since it isn't cost effective. That's bc their main contains thousands of cards. These farmers primarily move their cards inside their main deck using the auction. Gifting is rarely an option. The argument that big card farmers will benefit from a reduced gifting fee has no credibility.

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Postby Galiantus III » Thu Sep 16, 2021 9:05 pm

Benevolent 1 wrote:The argument that big card farmers will benefit from a reduced gifting fee has no credibility.

It's what everyone has been telling you from the beginning. Casual players don't gift lots of cards. Big card farmers do. You plugging your ears and going "la, la, la" isn't an argument. As a matter of fact, you have never addressed the argument at all. You just keep deflecting with irrelevant statements about auctions and card dropping. From this it is clear you haven't made any effort to consider the consequences of this proposal beyond your own preconceptions about what it would do.

This would cause even more inflation across the board, making it ever harder for average players to enter the market. If you seriously want to help new players, abandon this for a different idea, like modifying auction mechanics, or getting rid of card farms, or something that is actually relevant. Just because you say this idea is relevant (and/or honestly think it is) doesn't mean it is.
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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Fri Sep 17, 2021 8:53 am

Galiantus III wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:The argument that big card farmers will benefit from a reduced gifting fee has no credibility.

It's what everyone has been telling you from the beginning. Casual players don't gift lots of cards. Big card farmers do. You plugging your ears and going "la, la, la" isn't an argument. As a matter of fact, you have never addressed the argument at all. You just keep deflecting with irrelevant statements about auctions and card dropping. From this it is clear you haven't made any effort to consider the consequences of this proposal beyond your own preconceptions about what it would do.

This would cause even more inflation across the board, making it ever harder for average players to enter the market. If you seriously want to help new players, abandon this for a different idea, like modifying auction mechanics, or getting rid of card farms, or something that is actually relevant. Just because you say this idea is relevant (and/or honestly think it is) doesn't mean it is.


Everyone? Get bent. Save your generalizations and superlatives for conversations with the hive. It's only aim is to funnel every damn transaction through this motherfucking auction. The Hive knows they can't interfere with gifted transactions. Let it be changed to a more reasonable .20 per gift. Who cares if it helps an occasional farm boy? Once all the changes are place, small/medium size players will see the advantage.

And seriously, it couldn't be much harder for them than than it is now. I've plenty of ideas out there besides this is one. None of them support the status quo which is now a total disaster.

I do support Fris's Yahtzee plan which many believe will be a tedious enough method for drawing cards, enough so as to starve out the farmers. Sure they'll still have plenty of useless cards for storage. That can't be addressed.

Another idea is to subsidize small players with compensatory bank (like a stimulus check) and to tax players with absurd bank which they have amassed by abusing TCALS and the mofo's controlled auction funnel.

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Galiantus III
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Postby Galiantus III » Fri Sep 17, 2021 11:32 am

Benevolent 1 wrote:The Hive knows they can't interfere with gifted transactions.

You are out of touch with reality.

Who cares if it helps an occasional farm boy?

"Occasional"? This would make tons of card farming efforts more efficient. They would gather more bank on their puppets, giving the biggest players even more buying power at auction. For someone claiming to care about the little guy, you are really good at ignoring what would hurt them.

Once all the changes are place, small/medium size players will see the advantage.

How, though? Myself and others keep asking for an explanation, and you keep deflecting and making blatantly false claims. You are either unwilling or unable to explain why your proposal would do what you believe it would do.

Another idea is to subsidize small players with compensatory bank (like a stimulus check) and to tax players with absurd bank which they have amassed by abusing TCALS and the mofo's controlled auction funnel.

If you're serious about this, it just shows how out of touch you really are.
man noun : an adult male human
male noun : of or denoting the sex that produces small, typically motile gametes, especially spermatozoa
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Frisbeeteria wrote:
For some reason I have a mental image of a dolphin, trying to organize a new pod of his fellow dolphins to change the course of a nuclear sub. It's entertaining, I'll give ya that.
Ballotonia wrote:
Testing is for sissies. The actual test is to see how many people complain when any change is made ;)

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Benevolent 1
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Postby Benevolent 1 » Mon Sep 27, 2021 3:01 pm

Galiantus III wrote:
Benevolent 1 wrote:The Hive knows they can't interfere with gifted transactions.

You are out of touch with reality.

Who cares if it helps an occasional farm boy?

"Occasional"? This would make tons of card farming efforts more efficient. They would gather more bank on their puppets, giving the biggest players even more buying power at auction. For someone claiming to care about the little guy, you are really good at ignoring what would hurt them.

Once all the changes are place, small/medium size players will see the advantage.

How, though? Myself and others keep asking for an explanation, and you keep deflecting and making blatantly false claims. You are either unwilling or unable to explain why your proposal would do what you believe it would do.

Another idea is to subsidize small players with compensatory bank (like a stimulus check) and to tax players with absurd bank which they have amassed by abusing TCALS and the mofo's controlled auction funnel.

If you're serious about this, it just shows how out of touch you really are.


^Piffle.
There needs to be a more competitive card redistribution system than this ass backwards auction. Gifting is the only alternative available.

Fuck, man. Why the HELL don't you explain how the current auction is remotely fair for these smaller/medium casual players when it's loomed over by the big bank players in the top ten of DV? They and their Hive lickspittles have used it for more than 2 years as a TCALS ripoff duplicating card device. As well as a systematic market value inflator to gain DV and add more bank.

Neither of those outcomes occur by gifting of cards. Make gifting cards more price friendly, as in .20 per. This provide a reasonable alternative from the highwaymen who control the card auction block. Meanwhile reform this market. Kill the TCALS mechanism, and tax the auction in an appropriate manner to deter the inflation of low denomination cards.

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